S&B brand primers BIG DISAPPOINTMENT!!!

[azrednek]

I've been hand loading since the early 70's and the only significant difference I had previously experienced with primer brands were with shot shell primers. As far as metallic hand loading with non-magnum primers. I have yet to find one brand superior to another as far as accuracy or reliability. Of the thousands I've loaded over the years I have had very few duds. Possibly if I were still shooting through a crony I may have seen something significant. As far as group size on paper I have not seen a difference in any brand including Wolf.

I got an email spam with a bargain on S&B brand primers a couple of months ago. Being a tight wad and seeing a bargain I sprang for a thousand each of small and large pistol and another batch of small rifle.

Guess it is a lesson learned from the school of Hard Knox. The S&B primers have been frustrating to load. So far I haven't had any to the range so I can't speak on their reliability. I can't get the S&B's to operate without constant jams in my Lock'N'Load set-up. The slider constantly sticks. By alternating the S&B primers in the tube with every other primer either a Remmy or Winchester. The slider worked a bit more reliably but two consecutive S&B's the slider would not go home.

Adding to the frustration the S&B's seem to be inconsistent in size. One might need considerable force to properly seat and the next slides right in. I had three of the small pistol primers go into place so easy feeling no drag at all. I pulled the brass from the progression and stuck them aside. Tinkering the next day I de-primed the live S&B primers and replaced them with Winchester primers. The Winchester primers felt as though they seated normally with just the usual amount of drag I usually feel. The brass, multi fired 38 Spec, two pieces of Winnie and one Remington. I feel that the loose fit was a result of the primer and not the brass' primer pocket.

In summary I can say I got what I paid for but it will be the last batch of S&B primers I will buy regardless of the price. I'm stuck with them now as they can't be returned. Guess it will be back like the good ol'days with a single stage press. Loading the primers by hand sitting in front of the TV because they simply refuse to work in my Hornady's auto primer feed. I can almost hear my wife again saying "are you sure they wont explode".

I guess with the shortages beginning again I could easily sell them but I do like sleeping nights. Hopefully I just got a bad batch and every Tom, Dick and Harry that took advantage of the sale price doesn't have to deal with the same problems I have had so far.

[Rio Grande]

You could explain your difficulties and sell at a fair price. I'd take them under those circumstances for back-up primers. I suspect components will be targeted soon by anti-gunners.

[Pooch]

I recently bought 1000 each of Tula Lge. Rifle & Lge. pistol primers. I have loaded some but not fired any. They seemed to seat just like the CCI but again, I haven't fired any. Any comments on the Tulas?? Oh, thanks for the heads up on the S&B primers!

[SMCCORD]

I bought a few thousand small pistol primers last week at a local gun shop. So far I've loaded up 50 .357 mags and 50 9mms. They both loaded and shot just as any others I've loaded. They are just as hard as CCI primers, if not harder. My USPSA limited gun won't light them reliably, it only likes Federal primers. I've not tried to run any through a progressive press yet. Not had much luck with Lee's primer system.

[David2011]

As much trouble as I've had crushing primers while trying to seat them in S&B brass this doesn't surprise me. I try to cull all S&B into the scrap brass bin before it gets to the press. The red primer sealer makes it easier to cull them.

David

[Love Life]

Thanks for the heads up on the S&B primers. Once I run out of my various CCI, Remington, and Winchester primers I will be using the Tulas exclusively. If you get a chance give those a try.

[km101]

I recently bought 1000 each of Tula Lge. Rifle & Lge. pistol primers. I have loaded some but not fired any. They seemed to seat just like the CCI but again, I haven't fired any. Any comments on the Tulas?? Oh, thanks for the heads up on the S&B primers!

I recently bought 12K Tula SPP and 5K Tula LPP. I have loaded over 2K of the SPP and 1K of the LPP. I have only shot about 2-300 of each, but so far have not experienced any problems loading or firing them. They have loaded just like my CCI or Win primers, and they have all gone bang when I squeezed the trigger! I have not chrono'ed any of the loads, but 25 yd accuracy does not appear to have suffered. So far I am happy with them. Especially @ $19.80/K at Powder Valley. I plan to buy more as soon as my "fun money" account recoveres from Christmas. :)

http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/

[plmitch]

I had bought 5,000 S&B LR primers from Grafs back in May of this year and have loaded and shot just under 2,000 so far. Not one problem with them at all, for the price they are great! I will not use any S&B brass, but the primes are great.

[Green Frog]

As much trouble as I've had crushing primers while trying to seat them in S&B brass this doesn't surprise me. I try to cull all S&B into the scrap brass bin before it gets to the press. The red primer sealer makes it easier to cull them.

David

This experience implies that S&B brass has smaller primer pockets than other brands ~ all the other postings are indicative of larger primers. Just an observation here, but if both of these are the case, how could S&B load their factory ammo? Are we doing a little gratuitous slamming of the company or piling on? What did S&B ever do to you guys? Just wonderin'...

Froggie

[HATCH]

I loaded some CCI primers and had nothing but FTF with my j frame 38s but my n frame mod 28 eats them like candy.

Gonna change the spring in my Js and see what happens

[Nocturnal Stumblebutt]

Interesting info on S&B primers, although I may still try them since there seems to be conflicting info on here. But we'll see, we're under a foot of snow right now and I won't be shooting until some of that melts, so the 2500 WSP I have on hand may last me until the shortage is over.

[azrednek]

` What did S&B ever do to you guys? Just wonderin'...Froggie

S&B has not done anything to me with the exception as I stated in my original post. I have not tried the large pistol or small rifle yet and hopefully I do not encounter the same problems. I have no complaints about their ammo and have shot up plenty of it.

My best shooting bud however had problems with reliability with S&B 380 in his Bersa. Shooting ammo from the same box he had problems with. The S&B ammo worked perfectly in my Makarov and Gamba HSC. My shooting bud's Bersa worked just fine on the same outing with my handloads and some other factory ammo but I just can't recall the brand.

Despite the recent problems with S&B primers. I will still buy S&B ammo when it is only a buck or two more than steel cased brands such as Wolf or that dirty shooting stuff from Cabela's.

I have bought hundreds of rounds of S&B ammo and reloaded their brass. The 9MM both Luger and Mak, 380 and 38 Special. The brass' primer pockets are tight but I've found by chamfering a generous taper into the entrance of the pocket I can seat a primer but it does take a bit more elbow grease to seat them. So far to the best of my recollection. I have yet to seat a S&B primer into S&B brass. The S&B brass I previously loaded were primed with either Winchester or Remington brand primers.

In summary, S&B has not done anything to me with the exception of the garbage small pistol primers I recently purchased. I strongly discourage anybody from using S&B small pistol primers with an auto primer feed.

[sargenv]

I once had this issue with CCI primers and my Dillon 650. These were CCI primers before Federal bought them out. I no longer have the issue any longer and my 650 seems to feed them fine. I never had any issue with any primer when I was loading them on a Rock Chucker. I've loaded Tula, Wolf, Rem, Win, CCI, and Fed primers and the 650 no longer seems to have any issues... I wonder if the S&B primers you have are just something your press does not like.. It happens..

Oddly enough, I don't seem to have the same problems loading S&B or the AMERC brass on my 650.. other people complain about these cases on their presses so it's just one of those "luck of the draw" things..

[9.3X62AL]

"Quirks" between components and tooling do occur, as do quirks between components. For several years, the primer pockets of the W-W 9mm brass we fired for training and practice at work refused to admit ANY SPP I tried seating with my RCBS tooling--swing arm, ram priming unit, didn't matter. When I got the Ponsness-Warren P-200 in 2001, I thought it would make a difference--no soap. No amount of chamfering made a difference, either. I scrapped the W-W brass, and went with R-P. Problem over.

[Love Life]

Have you tried swaging the primer pockets since SP and SR primer pockets have the same SAAMI dimensions? That might help, but in the end it might no be worth it.

[azrednek]

Have you tried swaging the primer pockets since SP and SR primer pockets have the same SAAMI dimensions? That might help, but in the end it might no be worth it.

I haven't tried swaging the primer pockets yet and in all honesty I have enough 9MM and 38 Special brass. I probably wont go through the trouble. Years ago I had some US GI 45 ACP marked FA from the 30's. I believe the FA is Frankford Arsenal, somebody please chime in if I'm wrong.

The primer pockets on all the FA marked brass were just slightly to small and despite chamfering the large pistol primers would be slightly crushed if I used way to much leverage to seat them flush. Using a RCBS swager tool that is made for removing the military primer crimp did open the pockets enabling me to properly seat a primer. It worked but it was a time consuming process and in short a real pain in the donkey. For all the trouble, best I recall most of the old surplus ammo started splitting and few if any were reloaded more than once.

Back in those days I was sole support and feeding a family of six. I had considerably more time than money back then and didn't mind. Back in the 70's we couldn't go online and order brass. About the only way to accumulate brass in the 70's was buying live ammo.

Off subject slightly!! My spell check indicates swage, swaging, swager etc as misspelled. I even tried swadging, swadgeing and various alternatives using my imagination all to no avail. Pressed my curiosity button, any English majors out there??

[I'll Make Mine]

Swage, swaging, and swager are correct. Your spell checker is flagging them (as does mine) because they aren't in its dictionary; if you right click on the flagged word, you'll get a context menu with options to ignore, etc. -- including "add to dictionary" or something similar. Make certain the word is spelled correctly, and add it -- and it'll never flag again.

[Green Frog]

In summary, S&B has not done anything to me with the exception of the garbage small pistol primers I recently purchased. I strongly discourage anybody from using S&B small pistol primers with an auto primer feed.

azredneck, I didn't mean to come across as strident as I seem to have been taken. It just seemed like the best thing to do would have been inform S&B of your problem and see whether it was something they knew about (or not) and might have been willing and able to fix. When the other poster all but called their brass total junk without any real substance to his statement, I just had to wonder out loud what was going on. No offense was meant, just wondrin'. My personal interest is that I'd like to be able to use their 32 S&W Long ammo with the idea of reusing the brass (with their primers?)

Regards,
Froggie

[bb07]

This experience implies that S&B brass has smaller primer pockets than other brands ~ all the other postings are indicative of larger primers. Just an observation here, but if both of these are the case, how could S&B load their factory ammo? Are we doing a little gratuitous slamming of the company or piling on? What did S&B ever do to you guys? Just wonderin'...

Froggie

The only S&B ammo I've fired is .308. No experience with their primers.
No problems with the ammo at all until I went to reload it. Using Federal 210's I had quite a few crushed primers. The pockets on the cases I had were very tight.

[quasi]

I have used over 10k each of S&B Small Rifle and Small Pistol with no problems, but I am not using a tube feed primer system, I am using RCBS's Primer Strip system.

[Gee_Wizz01]

In my experience all of the S&B brass I have ever used had undersized primer pockets, this includes 303 Brit, 6.5X55, 9mm, 38 Spcl and 308 Win. I swage the primer pockets with my RCBS primer pocket uniformer and all is well. It is a pain in the rear and I only do it to brass that I really need.

Gary

[escard]

Sellier & Bellot uses significantly smaller dimensioned primer pockets - this is also the reason for the mess while seating some of the "classic" primers (Winchester, Remington, cci, Federal ....).

The primers of the S&B brand may have the right dimensions for their company´s brass, but not for brass of "the rest of the world".

[leadman]

Just an fyi from my friend that works at cabela's. all of the Herter's brand brass cased ammo is going to be S&B.
I would like to try some of the S&B primers. If they are the same as what they use in their ammo they leave almost no residue in the 30 carbine S&B I have.

[Guardian]

I realize this thread has been dormant for a while, but the following information may be helpful to someone. I had the same issue as the OP regarding the S&B SR primers on the Hornady LNL AP. The primer slide would hang open and required a fair amount of fiddling to get it to slide home.

I removed the primer system (full of primers) multiple times trying to figure out the problem. The press ran fine with CCI, Winchester, Federal, and Wolf primers. The S&B LP primers fed with no issues, previously. The S&B SR primers were getting under the lip of the primer magazine tube on the press and pushing it upwards.

Someone posted a similar issue with their LNL AP and that they moved the shoulder on the lower portion of the primer magazine tube upwards to allow the tube to sit lower in the holder, decreasing the gap between the bottom of the primer magazine tube and the primer slide. I don't have a lathe, so I couldn't turn the shoulder precisely. I used a file to taper the lower portion of the primer magazine tube until it sat flush with the underside of the holder that mounts on the press. This alleviated the issue and the S&B SR primers have fed fine since.

[azrednek]

Guardian thx for the info. I haven't used my Lock N Load in quite some time. It broke down on me a few weeks after the original post. Sent it to Hornady, got it fixed for free and haven't done any serious handloading in a few months.

Following advice I read here or another forum. Somebody experiencing the same problem claims using shim stock under the slider assembly, slightly raising it will fix the problem. Don't know if it will work though. Best I recall it was one of those "friend of mine" posts. The poster was either posting second hand advice or best guessing what he thinks will work. Makes enough sense that it will be worth a try.

[1874Sharps]

We all have had our individual experiences with S&B primers and brass in various sizes and through different loading machines. My shooting buddy and I have picked up alot of S&B pistol brass of the years and a primer does seat hard in the brass I have scavenged if the primer pockets are not cleaned and the swage cut away. But that has been true for any brand of primer I have tried.

A word about S&B: They started out in business about two hundred years ago making those newfangled things called percussion caps. As the years rolled on and Boxer and Berdan primers became the cutting edge technology, they started making metalic cartridges over a hundred years back. They make a heck of alot of 'em, too! They are an old and well established company that makes quality ammo and components (in my opinion).

The only pain I have experienced with S&B was with a box of S&B 7mm Mauser ammo (173 grain). The ammo shot quite well through my vintage Mannlicher-Schoenauer Mod. 1952, but I found the groove on the case head had not been cut deep enough. I wound up having to use a 7.5 Swiss shell holder to reload them. But for the value, great performance of the ammo, etc., I figured the minor inconvenience was worth it. It gnaws a bit on me, though, because it should have been cut right.

I have mainly been loading my S&B primers through a Dillon progressive Model 550 and have had no feeding or seating issues. It appears to my eye that S&B rounds the base (bottom) end of their primers a little more than other makers. I can understand how this and other small differences could cause various difficulties from machine to machine. In an absolute sense even two primers that come off the assembly line at plant XYZ are not the same (but they are plenty close enough nearly all the time). Interestingly enough, my best load in my target Mauser with heavy Shilen barrel and Bell and Carlson aluminum pillar bedded target-varmint stock uses S&B primered loads. Not a single complaint there!

[azrednek]

1874Sharps thx for your input. Over the years I've had favorable results with S&B factory ammo. I'm just a bit perplexed on their primer situation. Takes considerably more elbow grease to seat primers in their fired brass. Despite the problems with S&B primers in an auto primer feed myself and others have had. So far, so good as far as reliability. I haven't had a dud.

The tightest cluster in my lifetime about 10+ years ago. Was with S&B 22/250, 55gr SP's. Shot in a Remmy BDL with the factory varmint barrel. The 5 shot 100 yard cluster was easily covered with a quarter, just a tad outside a nickel. Afterward I had two strays with the remaining 15rds. Age, declining health and eyesight I could never shoot like that again.

I can't knock S&B's ammo but I really wish they could fix the problem with tight primer pockets. Hopefully somebody at S&B has heard enough complaints similar to mine on the auto prime problems, tight primer pockets and they correct it. My guess, if and when the craziness ends, hoarding stops and ammo prices are set by a competitive market again. S&B will likely fix the problems if they want to continue making a dent in the US market.

[Gee_Wizz01]

Azrednek, I dont hold out much hope for relief on tight primer pockets. This problem has been going on since at least the early 90's when I bought a bunch of S&B in .303 Brit.

G

[Boyscout]

Bought some Tula and S&B last spring but have not used them. I sort and segregated about 2500 45 ACP by head stamp recently and processed the S&B, Federal, and Winchester one at a time. S&B and Winchester have both given me trouble with tight pockets numerous time. I reamed the pockets of all the S&B. As far as S&B's ammo, I have never had a problem. I read somewhere that their rifle brass was not annealed well and did not hold up to reloading as good as the Priv Partisan 7.62x54R brass I use.

[stepmac]

While I'm not totally sure, I believe these S&B primers are made slightly off by the Chinese, just to drive us crazy.

Apparently it is working.

[williamwaco]

This experience implies that S&B brass has smaller primer pockets than other brands ~ all the other postings are indicative of larger primers. Just an observation here, but if both of these are the case, how could S&B load their factory ammo? Are we doing a little gratuitous slamming of the company or piling on? What did S&B ever do to you guys? Just wonderin'...

Froggie


Gee Whizz reports they are undersized primer pockets. That is exactly what I thought until I tried to correct them.

I don't think they are smaller primer pockets. I can't address the size of the primers because I have never used them.

I have had so much trouble seating CCI primers into S&B brass that I no longer try. I toss every S&B case I come to into a separate bucket.

I have measured the primer pockets to the best of my ability. I don't have an inside mike so I can't report the exact diameter of the primer pockets but I can report that using the same tool, they are exactly the same size as REM and WIN. I think it is safe to assume that my error measuring the S&B will be the same as the error when I measure the others.

A primer pocket uniforming tool will not remove anything from either the sides or the bottom of the S&B primer pockets. Crimp removal tools also remove nothing. RCBS primer pocket swaging tool also does nothing.

What I have discovered is that if I seat primers slowly they will tip to one side and hang. If I remove one tipped sideways before it is crushed and pull the primer with needle nose pliers and then inspect the primer pocked I find a small burr on the edge of the pocket.

The problem is that I don't know if the burr was already there of if it was nicked in the seating process.

I may get motivated enough to decap only ten or twenty of them and inspect them under the glass. (But probably not. )

NOTE: I have experience ONLY with .38 special S&B cases.

[olereb]

I recently bought 1000 each of Tula Lge. Rifle & Lge. pistol primers. I have loaded some but not fired any. They seemed to seat just like the CCI but again, I haven't fired any. Any comments on the Tulas?? Oh, thanks for the heads up on the S&B primers!

Tula's have been fine for me,i have fired around 1500 in the last 2 months and haven't had any issues(knock on wood).

[David2011]

Williamwaco,

"NOTE: I have experience ONLY with .38 special S&B cases. "

The same thing happens with .40 and .45 S&B cases. They're the only cases that consistently cause primer crushing and difficult seating on any and all of my presses. I watch for the telltale red seal around the primer pocket and donate them to the scrap brass box.

David

[Frank Savage]

While I'm not totally sure, I believe these S&B primers are made slightly off by the Chinese, just to drive us crazy.

Apparently it is working.


Sorry sir, but that´s bulls*/t. They are made in Czech Republic, from domestic materials period. The "problem", correctly named difference, is a bit thicker and somehow harder brass used for the cups, compared to other brands. For some guns it´s plus, that you don´t need to bother with extended firing pin protrusion and pressure combos, in some guns it´s a PITA-namely those with light firing pin springs etc.
So-the harder and thicker brass means more resistance while seating and also a bigger risk of making a burr in the pocket.

[Spawn-Inc]

Sorry sir, but that´s bulls*/t. They are made in Czech Republic, from domestic materials period. The "problem", correctly named difference, is a bit thicker and somehow harder brass used for the cups, compared to other brands. For some guns it´s plus, that you don´t need to bother with extended firing pin protrusion and pressure combos, in some guns it´s a PITA-namely those with light firing pin springs etc.
So-the harder and thicker brass means more resistance while seating and also a bigger risk of making a burr in the pocket.


Your sarcasm meter is broken me thinks.

I love s&b primers for their small packaging like cci.

[Guardian]

Guardian thx for the info. I haven't used my Lock N Load in quite some time. It broke down on me a few weeks after the original post. Sent it to Hornady, got it fixed for free and haven't done any serious handloading in a few months.

Following advice I read here or another forum. Somebody experiencing the same problem claims using shim stock under the slider assembly, slightly raising it will fix the problem. Don't know if it will work though. Best I recall it was one of those "friend of mine" posts. The poster was either posting second hand advice or best guessing what he thinks will work. Makes enough sense that it will be worth a try.

Let us know if it works!

[azrednek]

Let us know if it works!

Will do but it probably be December before I start doing any serious handloading. Currently I'm doing belted mags one at a time with my Rock Crusher. I cast, sized and lubed apx 1,000 9MM's recently I will likely began after hunting season. Weather permitting I will begin casting 44 and 45's about Dec 1 and will fire up the Lock N Load. I will fool around and see if I can get the Primer feed to work with S&B primers.

[VHoward]

I've never had an issue with the S&B primers I used. I use a Dillon SD b and an XL650. No issues in my guns either. The only S&B brass I've encountered were 9mm. I run them through the pocket swager and they are still tight, but primable.

I'm not saying that anybody can't have gotten a bad bunch of them though. Just that I haven't had an issue with them myself.

[Frank Savage]

Your sarcasm meter is broken me thinks.

I love s&b primers for their small packaging like cci.


Easily it can be, I simply came across too much of chinese knock-offs off-topics lately.


Back to primers-I just found out that primers that were pushed out of my german mfg Hoerneber 8x60R Kropatschek brass are almost drop-in fit into new 348 Win brass. Primed and de-primed a 308 Win case by Norma-again, it´s a no pressure thumb fit into 348 Win brass, and very little resistance (still easily manageable even without the use of a nail (the one of the thumb :-) )) into 308 case by Winchester. Have no Remington brass on hand now, but I remember about the same priming resistance as of Winchester brass. It seems just that US made brass is on the generous hole tolerances, while european made brass is a bit tighter and SB primers are made to the tightest tolerance on the shaft part.
Might the more generous tolerances and softer material of primer cups of US mfg makes some difference in prevention of lawsuits from ********* who would horse unaligned primer in while looking down the case mouth what the heck is there it wouldn´t seat...

[texassako]

I got to thinking the other day about some 7.62x54r S&B brass I have. It is tough to seat primers as others report on here. A large pistol primer fit those pockets just right when I tried them. Measured, the pockets are about .02" shallower than the PPU brass I had out. If they make their primers for those pockets, then I would really wonder how they would do in other brands of brass.

[Lueftl]

Hello gentlemen,
what you describe is here in Europe, where you do very often stumble into Sellier and Bellot brass as well as primers, very common reloaders experience. It works best to put S&B primers into S&B brass, or rework the primer pockets as the pockets as specified by S&B are a bit on the tight side! Actually the primers are not bad, maybe a bit "harder" than the US stuff, but not at all unreliable or inconsistent. However the brass is usually worn and torn after a lot less reloads than other brands. Seems to be a bit harder and therefore resizing is taking it's toll. Sometimes it helps a bit to turn the brass while trying to set the primer. At least it helps with my Dillon press.

Kindest regards from Germany

Lueftl

[handyman25]

So far I have only loaded and fired about 400 of the tula sp primers. I use a Lee load master and had no problems. A friend of mine uses a Dillon and said the primers stick some time. About 2 out of 100. The firing side of the primer is rougher than a Federal, Winchester or CCI

[EDG]

Posts from pistol shooters and others using automated or progressive loader belong in a thread of their own.
Trouble using components on one of these machines is not necessarily a problem with the component.
In this case not a round of ammo has been fired and the comments were due to function in a loading machine.

[myg30]

Hello gentlemen,
what you describe is here in Europe, where you do very often stumble into Sellier and Bellot brass as well as primers, very common reloaders experience. It works best to put S&B primers into S&B brass, or rework the primer pockets as the pockets as specified by S&B are a bit on the tight side! Actually the primers are not bad, maybe a bit "harder" than the US stuff, but not at all unreliable or inconsistent. However the brass is usually worn and torn after a lot less reloads than other brands. Seems to be a bit harder and therefore resizing is taking it's toll. Sometimes it helps a bit to turn the brass while trying to set the primer. At least it helps with my Dillon press.

Kindest regards from Germany

Lueftl

Thank you for the info. I'll try that next loading as I have had some trouble too with the s&b brass. I try to use ALL my brass.
It's not scrap till all steps have been tried to correct the issue. I dont speed load so I like to find a fix and a method to correct any issues that may arise.
Some brass I like to hand prime, others go thru the progressive press primer system. I never rush when reloading. If I dont have the time then I dont start.

Mike

[reed1911]

We use S&B primers on some loads and I've never seen a difference in performance or loading.

[jarrodl]

I dont have any experiance with their primers, but I reloaded some 9mm brass once. It realoaded and primed very well. IIRC it had a large bevel on the primer pocket that made it really easy to prime. Maybe the factory had problems with the primers hanging also :)

[John Boy]

They both loaded and shot just as any others I've loaded. They are just as hard as CCI primers, if not harder.
Incorrect about hardness to CCI

2015 Update
Test Procedure: Using a Lee Hardness Tester that measures Brinell hardness, placed a new primer on a piece of steel. Held the indent ball on the primer for 30 seconds using a 5/32” SS ball with 60 lbs load pressure
Measurement is the diameter of the indent, smaller numbers indication harder brass

Pistol Primers

0.30 CCI 500 SP, lot K27U41
0.32 – CCI 300 LP
0.32 CCI 350 LPM, lot G10R
0.38 – Federal GM150 Match LP
0.38 – Sellier & Bellot SP
0.38 – Sellier & Bellot LP

0.40 – Federal 155 LP Magnum
0.40 – Winchester - Western WLP
0.42 – Federal 150 LP
0.42 - Federal 100 SP
0.42 – Remington 1 ½ SP
0.44 – CCI 500 SP
0.48 – Remington 2 ½ LP
0.48 – CCI LP Lot 0264 – old CCI primers

Rifle Primers
0.24 – Herters 120 LR
0.26 – CCI BR-2 LR
0.28 – CCI 200 LR, lot H27M
0.28 Win-WLR, lot HNL347G
0.28 CCI 400 SR, lot CO1K
0.30 – Rem UMC Nickeled High Pressure LR
0.30 CCI 400 SR, lot E26U
0.32 – Federal 215 LR Magnum
0.34 – Remington 9 ½ LR
0.36 – Western 8 ½ LR
0.38 - Rem 7 ½ Bench Rest
0.38 – Alcan LR Magnum
0.40 – Federal 210 LR
0.40 – Winchester 115 Staynless LR

0.30 - Dynamit AG cal 6.34
0.32 - Dynamit AG cal 4.5

Note: All Lot Numbers were not recorded

[Theunsb]

Hi
In my part of the world S&B primers are in great demand, we battle to find other brands at reasonable prices.
Example Federal S&B SPP @ $62,5 per 1,000 whereas $25,83 for S&B last buy a week ago both brands as my Taurus 608 works reliable only with Federal primers and the rest loves them small and large primers.
My Hornady LnL AP is happy with S&B small and large primers since I smoothed my primer sliders and slide slot from all rough edges. Various brass types, now, that is another story for another night.

[3006guns]

This won't add much to the S&B discussion except to point out that it can be a problem with other brands also. I have 1k CCI's under my bench, carefully marked "caution, oversize!".......and they are. They're standard large rifle primers but measure a full .001 larger than spec. You'd think and extra thousandth in diameter shouldn't be a problem, but I mangled quite a few before I got curious and pulled out a micrometer. Note that this is a batch from the late 1960's (black and white box) and I was informed that CCI had a quality control problem for a short time during that era.

They're still perfectly useable, provided I seat each one carefully. With the cost/availability of components changing daily, I ain't throwin' nothin' away!

As for S&B, after reading all the negative comments on their cartridge case primer pockets, the primer issue doesn't surprise me.

[mold maker]

I may have gotten a good lot, but have had absolutely no problem with S&B SP primers.
The only relate problem is with badly tarnished (range pickup) S&B primers tearing the head off instead of depriming. It's with 9mm and the brass isn't worth extra effort, so I just save them for swaging 40 cal with.

[azrednek]

John Boy THANKS!! The info you quoted below is very helpful.





Incorrect about hardness to CCI

2015 Update
Test Procedure: Using a Lee Hardness Tester that measures Brinell hardness, placed a new primer on a piece of steel. Held the indent ball on the primer for 30 seconds using a 5/32” SS ball with 60 lbs load pressure
Measurement is the diameter of the indent, smaller numbers indication harder brass

Pistol Primers

0.30 CCI 500 SP, lot K27U41
0.32 – CCI 300 LP
0.32 CCI 350 LPM, lot G10R
0.38 – Federal GM150 Match LP
0.38 – Sellier & Bellot SP
0.38 – Sellier & Bellot LP

0.40 – Federal 155 LP Magnum
0.40 – Winchester - Western WLP
0.42 – Federal 150 LP
0.42 - Federal 100 SP
0.42 – Remington 1 ½ SP
0.44 – CCI 500 SP
0.48 – Remington 2 ½ LP
0.48 – CCI LP Lot 0264 – old CCI primers

Rifle Primers
0.24 – Herters 120 LR
0.26 – CCI BR-2 LR
0.28 – CCI 200 LR, lot H27M
0.28 Win-WLR, lot HNL347G
0.28 CCI 400 SR, lot CO1K
0.30 – Rem UMC Nickeled High Pressure LR
0.30 CCI 400 SR, lot E26U
0.32 – Federal 215 LR Magnum
0.34 – Remington 9 ½ LR
0.36 – Western 8 ½ LR
0.38 - Rem 7 ½ Bench Rest
0.38 – Alcan LR Magnum
0.40 – Federal 210 LR
0.40 – Winchester 115 Staynless LR

0.30 - Dynamit AG cal 6.34
0.32 - Dynamit AG cal 4.5

Note: All Lot Numbers were not recorded

[alamogunr]

I wish you had some of my Wolf spp to test. I've been getting very random results with them. All my loading is single stage. I've detailed my problems in this thread:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?242695-Hard-Primers-or-Light-Spring-or

As I get time, I plan to try them in a variety of guns. So far only a S&W Model 65 and a S&W Model 28. The 65 had the most problems, possibly because of a bobbed hammer giving a light strike. The Model 28 failed to fire some but others had a very pronounced indentation.

[mdi]

FWIW; a side thought. All the S&B brass I've loaded had "tight" primer pockets. I also noticed each had very little chamfer on the mouth of the pocket, more of a sharp edge. I chamfered the pocket as I would military brass and "problem" went away...

[azrednek]

FWIW; a side thought. All the S&B brass I've loaded had "tight" primer pockets. I also noticed each had very little chamfer on the mouth of the pocket, more of a sharp edge. I chamfered the pocket as I would military brass and "problem" went away...

I do the same with my S&B brass but it still takes considerably more pressure to send the primers home.

[RandyLahey]

My recent order of S&B small pistol primers was just to fill some added space on a hazmat order through powder valley. I had been using Tula SPP. In 9mm and my S&W M&P9 with apex trigger kit, these work great, rarely a dud. On my S&W M&P40 with apex trigger, the Tulas have very frequent failure to fire. Primer dents but doesn't fire. Most won't fire on restrike. This is an issue in part due to my trigger loop possibly needing some more work, and a Lazy/Worn striker assembly I have an order in for new striker parts, but they are backordered. Anyway, I decided to try the S&B's to see if I had the same issue, and I've only had one FTF and that fired on restrike, and that was in a 600+ round run of bullets. So I consider that a good record. I'll be ordering more. To the OP, I wonder if the primers sat in unfavorable conditions in storage and the distributer or vendor where clearing them out due to duds ?????? The S&B's I've run are flatter on the face, and flow nicer through my Hornady LnL progressive and my Lee Loadmaster better than the tulas. I get less tipped primers in the Loadmaster, at least in the small run I did with them on that press just to confirm they flowed well enough as I Plan to use the S&B's moving forward, as they are slightly cheaper vs the Tulas. I did only test 100 through the LLM as I'm using all of the 3k S&B's I have mostly for the 40 as the Tulas work fine in my 9mm and I have a few k of those to use up.

[azrednek]

To the OP, I wonder if the primers sat in unfavorable conditions in storage and the distributer or vendor where clearing them out due to duds ??????

I'm speculating that I possibly got a bad batch. I don't think but can't say for sure they were improperly stored. One of the first things I noticed was how bright and shiny the S&B's were. I did some tweaking with my Hornady Lock N Load and the S&B's do feed a bit better BUT last time I had 3 or 4 that didn't have a primer out of apx 150 rds of 38 Special. I also culled a few primer-less rds from a batch of 9MM. I don't recall the number of 9's so I can safely say "a few".

I still have the inconsistent feeling seating the S&B's. One will slide right in and the next might take a considerable amount of elbow grease. They were loaded in multi fired brass so the primer pocket is also suspect.

My last trip to the range with apx 400 rds of 9, 38, 45 ACP & Colt, I had a few duds. Best I recall all fired in the second strike. In the mix I also had some Tula primers and for some reason that escapes me. I forgot to label the type primer with the loading data.

I do feel some what better about the S&B's. I have to admit to being a bit po'd and frustrated in the original post and blew off some steam while writing it. In summary I'll shoot'em up but wont put my life on the line with the S&B's. For recreational purposes the S&B's are fine, I got what I paid for and once the supply normalizes. I will only use Winchester with the possible exception of Wolf. 1,000 LP Wolf brand loaded in 45 ACP, Colt and AR were 100% perfect. Most if not all were shot S/A in S&W revolvers.
Past 5 or so years I quit with the meticulous record keeping.

I recently acquired a S&W 45 ACP, Model of 1988. I suspect the previous owner played with the main spring tension. With a hodge-podge of LP primer brands I had apx 10% needing a second strike when fired in the D/A mode. The failures were some what my fault as I got lazy and began using my fingernails to extract instead of loading into moon clips. Chances are good my home cast lead slugs were not seated deeply enough in the cylinder. I don't recall any duds with AR brass and I just can't recall if I needed a second strike with ACP brass on clips.

[Motor]

There is a thread similar to this one over on the "AR" forum. It seems Cabelas had the S&B primers for a good price recently. Every single post is 100% favorable towards the S&B primers. Not a single negative reply.

Kinda makes you wonder. ?????

Motor

[Expat74]

Hello gentlemen,
what you describe is here in Europe, where you do very often stumble into Sellier and Bellot brass as well as primers, very common reloaders experience. It works best to put S&B primers into S&B brass, or rework the primer pockets as the pockets as specified by S&B are a bit on the tight side! Actually the primers are not bad, maybe a bit "harder" than the US stuff, but not at all unreliable or inconsistent. However the brass is usually worn and torn after a lot less reloads than other brands. Seems to be a bit harder and therefore resizing is taking it's toll. Sometimes it helps a bit to turn the brass while trying to set the primer. At least it helps with my Dillon press.

Kindest regards from Germany

Lueftl

What Lueftl says.. haven't had bad experiences either. My 2 cents from Switzerland.

[Cmm_3940]

FWIW; a side thought. All the S&B brass I've loaded had "tight" primer pockets. I also noticed each had very little chamfer on the mouth of the pocket, more of a sharp edge. I chamfered the pocket as I would military brass and "problem" went away...

Concur, this has been my experience as well.

[walkingjay]

I think the fact that the email was "spam" might be an indication that maybe they are not real S&B primers, ot that they are substandard primers that have been diverted to the grey market.

[walkingjay]

I think the fact that the email was "spam" might be an indication that maybe they are not real S&B primers, ot that they are substandard primers that have been diverted to the grey market.

[victorfox]

I don't know if the bad QC goes overseas, but for some years Sellier & Bellot is owned by CBC/Magtech, which is not the best brand around. Unfortunatedly, in Brazil it's the only thing available, since gun control hit us. Last year, CBC/Magtech also acquired a large portion of Taurus shares (i don't know exactly how many, but seems they took over), so looks like we having a firearm conglomerate of "so-so" quality... LOL

I had some problem in the past with the CBC 209/50 primers, intended for .410 and 32ga shells. They were a bunch smaller than the hole of once fired hulls, so I swaged the hole with a piece of steel and they were firm enough to fire well.

Now the primers are coming ok.

[SeabeeMan]

I've had exactly the opposite impression. I picked up 1000 LP and 1000 SR at Cabelas for 22.99 a while back and have since loaded and shot every single one. Not one failure to fire, popped or backing out primer, nothing. The closest thing I had to a problem was mashing 2 or 3 when I got a bit too excited and encountered a crimped pocket I had missed. As others pointed out, I the same issue I get with any brand when the press would get a bit dry or an errant piece of media or powder would end up in the primer slide system.

I'm picking up a pile of them at 19.99/1000 at Cabela's this weekend. That's cheaper than PV sells them, nevermind no haz-mat. Throw in some Cabela's points and I will be a happy camper!

[9w1911]

Yep no issues with S&B and will buy again and again.

[therealhitman]

+1 No Issues with S&B Primers LPP and SPPs. I have a pretty good stock of several brands and the Dillon just hums along with all of them. No S&B duds yet either. Price is right and Powder Valley seems to always have em so if CCIs are out of stock I grab these.

[Electric88]

Is there a sale going on at cabelas for primers this weekend Rich_Kildow?

[azrednek]

Thought I'd ignite this thread again as I had two S&B duds today. I have to take part of the blame. The two duds appeared that the primer was not all the way home. Operator error obviously a contributing factor. BUT I suspect that due to the inconsistent size and the varying amount of elbow grease needed to send the primers home may have played a role. Both duds fired on the 2nd strike. The duds were both in a S&W 25-2 chambered in 45 Colt. I shot up one hundred rounds with about a 50/50 split with the S&W and a Ruger Blackhawk. No duds in the Ruger.

I think back, maybe I shouldn't be bell aching. I just don't recall the numbers but do remember the price at the time was dirt cheap compared to the biggies like Midway, Graffs etc. I got what I paid for especially during that period of scarcity, purchase limits and price gouging.

As I stated earlier. I'll shoot them up trying to use the all S&B's up first. For any hand loads that my life may depend on or if I draw a Javalina handgun hunt tag. I'll use my favorite primer brand, Winchester.

A member of my gun collector's club brought up a good point after hearing me complain about the tight primer pockets on S&B brass. It is not written in stone that all boxer LP primers have to be .210. S&B can make their primers and primer pockets what ever size they dang well please. Possibly S&B intentionally manufacture the primer pockets on the small side for particular reason.

[10or45]

I have found them to be more consistant in size than primer pockets are. I've run S&B SP and LP through my 550 with no problems at all. Around 15K so far and not one misfire. The primer pickup tubes don't slide over them from the flip tray as easy because the backside has less radius than the CCI's do on the edges. Other than that I interchange them with CCI's no problem.

[GT1]

A person can find complaints about most brands of reloading components(brass and primers are a popular gripe) if they look for them. I have quite a bit of S&B brass and it is some of the best 9mm brass I have, I like tight primer pockets, means I am going to get more loads in them because at my range level loads those pockets go before it splits. Magtech has been selling primers for a long time, they are hard, but as long as they are seated they fire just fine unless you are running light springs, in which case you already know federal primers are used almost exclusively in "gaming" firearms.

[hermans]

No problem with S&B primers for me, they are the "go to" primers here, since they are almost always available and at fair prices compared to the "better" primers from the good old US of A. They are somewhat "harder" than the most other makes, but since I normally swage/uniform all my brass before loading them for the first time, I have no complaints seating them with my Dillon 550B.

[daboone]

When I used S&B primers I've found it necessary to ream all the cases even the non crimped to get the feel and with less effort.

[ih772]

I've used several thousand of them and I'm happy with their performance and the price I got them for.

[EMC45]

I too like S&B primers. I think they are a good bit softer then CCI and Wolf primers. They seat nicely in my SP cases (.32, .38). They all ignite with ease and have had no failure to fire with them. I save the Wolf and CCI for the semi autos.

[bob208]

back during the Clinton primer shortage I got 1000 small rifle and 1500 small pistol s&b from navy arms. never had a problem with them.

[Papercidal]

I ran about 20k small pistol primers that I picked up when cabellas had them for under 20$ and they where every bit as reliable as cci and I had far fewer crushed/flipped primers in my 650 I think due to the fact that they have less of a radius on the edge.

I really wish they would go on sale again. At 27.00 I will just pay the extra 2$ for cci or Winchester and support American companies even though I prefer the s&b but when they are more than 10$ difference my principals kind of fall victim to my cheapness.

[TaylorS]

I had bought some several years back and as I’ve run out of CCI spp I’ve used them they were sold under the guise that they weren’t marked for anything other than being small and would work fine. I’ve loaded 1000+ for my 223 with out a hitch but I’ve had hell getting my 9s and other small pistols to work after inquiring about it here I found out you have to go by one of the numbers on the box to find out weather they are small pistol or rifle. Doubt that’s your feeding issue but might be something to check on


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[EDG]

About primer reliability.

Most ammo companies also are in the military ammo business where reliability is a matter of life and death for both the customer and the company.

The only way to test energetic materials like primers is destructive firing tests. Quality assurance has to be accomplished by statistical methods since you will not have any product left if you test fire every primer. Because of all the statistical process contols used it is very unlikely that you got a dud primer. I have seen pierced and burned through primers but never a dud unless the ammo went through the washing machine in my pocket.

[pworley1]

I have shot several 1000 S&B primers both large and small pistol with no issues. I use a Lyman ram prime die to seat them.

[Barman54]

I have had no problems with Sml, and large Pistols Primers,
Price is good Also.
Barman54
Out

[GONRA]

GONRA's not sure if anyone commented above on azrednek's "too small 1930's FA .45 ACP brass primer pockets".
That's because these were 0.204 inch diameter (not 0.210 inch diameter.)

Sometime AFTER WWII everyone started using 0.210 inch diameter........

[maxiblu]

I have been using S&B primers in all metallic sizes for about 4 years. I have not had one misfire after thousands of rounds. I use a Lyman Hand Primer for both the large and small sizes, pistol and rifle. I have nothing bad to say about them.

[Retumbo]

Ill take em

[EDG]

Quote from the original post follows

The S&B primers have been frustrating to load. So far I haven't had any to the range so I can't speak on their reliability. I can't get the S&B's to operate without constant jams in my Lock'N'Load set-up. The slider constantly sticks.

End quote.


This seems to be an unnecessary thread. The complaint is not about accuracy or ignition. It is about a primer feed device. It is up to the design engineer to make his primer feed contraption work. There is no way the primer design guys are going to modify their primers for every bird brained primer feed design.

[azrednek]

Ive used a thousand or do and havent had any problems with them.
Funny isnt it.

Again I mean no hurt, harm, anguish or turmoil by my post I have posted on this posted subject. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone. I am making a post based on my experience, knowledge and/or belief or opinion. That is all.

As the original poster of this thread I can assure you I take no offense. Your shared experience and opinion is appreciated.

[alamogunr]

Ive used a thousand or do and havent had any problems with them.
Funny isnt it.

Again I mean no hurt, harm, anguish or turmoil by my post I have posted on this posted subject. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone. I am making a post based on my experience, knowledge and/or belief or opinion. That is all.

We get it!

[lightman]

Over my casting and loading career I have had very few issues with any brand of primer. And those have been with fit. I have had no issues with CCI and they are my favorite. In 10's of thousands of loads I remember maybe 2 mis-fires. Breaking those loads down showed a primer missing an anvil and another missing the compound. I'm surprised I missed seeing it! I don't remember the brands except that they were not CCI.

[Gunny K.]

The S&B primers are my favorite. I use only the Large rifle and Large rifle magnum. I have not destroyed a single primer yet and have gone through about 5k of them without a single misfire. I still have about 12k left. definitely my favorite. The primers I hate are Federal. those I crush during loading. They only load into Federal brass. They are .001 larger than other primers. same as if when you try to use other brand primers such as Winchester in Federal brass. They fall out. Otherwise my second most favorite are Winchester and third are CCI.

[scattershot]

I have used thousands of the S&B primers without incident. Last ones I bought were $22.00/1000. I’ll take that all day long. Can’t seem to,find them any more, though.

[JimB..]

Thread resurrection!

Didn’t we stop importing s&b primers a couple years ago? I bought a lot of them when Cabelas had them cheap during the holidays.

[Jniedbalski]

I know in my area I haven’t been able to find any S&b primers for over a year or two. They where always cheeper than any other brand . They always work great for me. Yes some where tight in some brass but the 1,000s if them I loaded they all worked

[M-Tecs]

Thread resurrection!

Didn’t we stop importing s&b primers a couple years ago? I bought a lot of them when Cabelas had them cheap during the holidays.

Yes they fell under the Obama ban on specific Russian items for import.

[azrednek]

I’m surprised to see this thread still alive nearly 8 years after I opened it. I can honestly say after likely shooting all the S&B primers up. I can’t recall any primer related duds and the problem is most likely my Lock N Load’s slider. I also had a similar problem to a lesser degree with small rifle Tulamo brand.

[smithnframe]

I've been using them quite often since the Obamascare when they showed up at my local Cabelas. No problems here!

[Little Oak]

I used an aged Pacific/Hornady progressive press (the forerunner of the Lock-N-Load) to load for several different pistol cartridges with different makes of primer and I found that the priming arm that swings out to collect the primer from the tube has to be adjusted absolutely perfectly each time or it won't cooperate. It was by far the longest part of the set-up procedure when switching calibres but when set up right it works like a dream.
My nephew has the loader at the moment but won't use it because he doesn't have the patience to set up the priming system and gets frustrated by the glitches.

[3006guns]

[QUOTE=escard;1988441]Sellier & Bellot uses significantly smaller dimensioned primer pockets - this is also the reason for the mess while seating some of the "classic" primers (Winchester, Remington, cci, Federal ....).

The primers of the S&B brand may have the right dimensions for their company´s brass, but not for brass of "the rest of the world".[/QUOTE

I've been watching the pro and con discussions on S&B primer pockets for years now, and it makes me wonder.........is S&B aware of their reputation in the reloading community? You'd think after the number of gripes and complaints they'd modify their primer machinery to match everyone else!

The only primer experience I've had was with CCI's a number of years ago. I inherited a box of 1000 and ALL of them were extremely tight, requiring quite a bit of priming force. I finally got out the mike and found they were close to .002 too big! Now, this box is quite old....it's in the old black and white format used in the sixties, so it's possible that CCI was still cutting their teeth on primer manufacture. I labeled the box "oversize" and stashed it away for emergency use. I remember the Obama years..........

[BrassMagnet]

As much trouble as I've had crushing primers while trying to seat them in S&B brass this doesn't surprise me. I try to cull all S&B into the scrap brass bin before it gets to the press. The red primer sealer makes it easier to cull them.

David

I have been reloading 38 Special and I have had several high primers which had to be thoroughly crushed rofit in the hole. S&B are the only commercial brass to do that to me. I have also had that happen with FC57 and FC58 military brass. I thought I had uniformed all of the FC GI primer pockets many years ago. I wonder if these ones are new to me or left over from back then.

[LinotypeIngot]

I've used thousands of S&B small rifle primers and they worked perfectly. Fed them through a Dillon 1050 with auto drive and they were just fine.

[Gtrubicon]

I would buy s&b primers again, I bought 10k and have used them in a Dillon 650, rcbs hand prime tool and Lyman ideal 310 tong tools, never an issue.

[JimB..]

Fit fine for me, go bang with great consistency. Wish Cabela’s would bring them back at $20/k or less.

[Hutch556]

I bought a couple thousand S&B SRP on clearance at Cabelas a couple years ago for $18 a brick. I have not shot all of them, but no issues with them so far. With that said, it’s about impossible to find any primers now.

[azrednek]

I’m surprised that this thread I started in 2012 is still alive. I highly suspect I got a bad batch. I bought these primers during the Obozo shortages. I don’t recall the numbers but I got them cheap especially when supplies were short and price gouging was rampant for all handloading components. Same as we are now experiencing with ammo. Another consideration, I got them from an unknown merchant’s spam email. I can’t say with certainty but is it possible the merchant knew he had a bad batch and low balled the price then disappeared. Been to many years to recall but I did email the vendor expressing my displeasure, failed to get a response and if I recall the facts correctly the email address eventually bounced.

On S&B’s behalf I can honestly say I’ve shot hundreds of their ammo. Not exactly match grade but the low price before the recent gouging makes it ideal for plinking ammo. Once upon a time before the panic buying and hoarding. It was advantageous for me to buy S&B 9MM and 38 Special. Using my limited time at the bench for the more costly ammo such as 44 Special, 45 Colt, 41 Mag, 308 Norma Mag and nearly all rifle ammo. S&B was and hopefully will return as a low cost plinking ammo option to avoid the European steel cased.