The Nagant speaks!

[nhrifle]

Finally got some ammo loaded up for the Nagant revolver and boy did it feel good to fire it! Now I need to do some load development. I'm using WW 32-20 brass converted in Lee dies made for the revolver. Nice thing about this brass is the rim is thin enough to allow functioning without modifying either the revolver or the brass. I am loading the Lee 311-93-1R, seated to a length of 1.50". The rounds look good and chamber perfectly. I have tried two loads so far, had to quit since the neighbors were going to bed. First was 3.5 grains of Red Dot. This load felt nice and brisk and felt like it had some authority to it. The second load was 8 grains of Lilgun, and that felt very soft and didn't have quite the pop that the Red Dot did. I think this is going to take a bit of deductive experimentation on my part, but I was hoping some of the members here could chime in and give me some advice as to loads to try. Powders I have on hand suitable for this are -- Red Dot, W231, H110, and Lilgun. There is a bit of enjoyment in experimentation, but some pointers would be great. If I make any breakthroughs I will post them here.

[Dutchman]

I was just on another forum reading about handloading for the Nagant revolver. The Swedish Nagant m/1887 7.5mm. Could this be the same Nagant revolver you're talking about? Or the m/1895 Russian Nagant revolver?

I'm so corn'fused. I won't be able to sleep tonight wondering.. Not even any pictures to assuage my mortal soul :(.

Dutch

[cloakndagger]

The swedes and the russians both used the nagant pattern, although the swedes made theirs with more quality. Most swede nagants are considered extremely collectable and ive not heard of anyone actualy shooting them. The swede has a different calibration than the m95, but theyre both "gas seal" nagant system revolvers.

[mac60]

I think you've got it well in hand. You've taken the path of least resistance. IMHO the "gas seal" feature of these revolvers is highly over-rated. I am using some commercial cast boolits in mine, but I do have that mould and I'll be using it when they run out. I'm using 3.5 gr. trail boss right now.

[Nobade]

Load it with black powder and you will get better power and discover why the gas seal is a good idea at the same time. Remember when these guns were designed.

[nhrifle]

It is a Russian 1895 Nagant made in 1900, pretty nice shape actually. I can't read Russian, so I can't tell you where it was made. If I can wrestle my camera away from my step daughter I will post some pics of the pistol and some of the rounds I made.

I am going to try some more load development today. I am going to try basing it on 32 H&R Mag data since the 7.62X38 case is very similar, just a bit longer. The lighter listed loads should be good to start with since my rounds will be seated much longer than the H&R rounds. Load one, try it, look for pressure signs. This is how I developed my data for the 300 Blackout.

I decided to use the 32-20 brass because I didn't want to work too much for some brass. When I first got the thing, I was converting .223 brass to work in the Nagant, and while it did make functional brass it was a bit of work, and ruined a couple of 30 Carbine sizing dies. I want to try it with black powder, but not until I get some proper brass so I can use the gas seal feature so the fouling stays in the barrel. I will probably have to go with Pyrodex tho because no one around here sells black powder. Maybe I just need to make my own?

[Nobade]

Keep in mind those guns are rated at 11,000 psi max. About half of the 32 H&R. This is why commercially available smokeless loaded ammo is so anemic and why using black powder is more powerful.

And yes, homemade black is all I use in mine. I would imagine Pyro P would work if you compress it a LOT but remember all the cautions about cleaning up after that stuff. Clean with water, then GI bore cleaner, then clean again the next day and keep an eye on it for a while. Nasty corrosive stuff.

Those guns really do work best with the correct brass, and it is fairly cheap from Graf's so I don't see any reason to use anything else. Plus you don't have to resize it so it lasts forever.

[nhrifle]

I do plan on getting the correct brass from Grafs, and those will be used for my BP rounds, which will probably be my standard load in this gun.

I got some good load development done today. Red dot stands at 3.5 gr as good load and I won't push that one faster. 10 gr. of Lilgun worked pretty well and burned clean. AA5744 turned out to be an excellent powder, with 11.5 gr. taking the prize of best load of the day. H110 with a charge of 10 gr. is a fairly stout load, but I got peppered by a bunch of unburned powder and there was a bunch left in the cylinder and barrel so I won't be using that again. Please remember, these loads worked in my gun on this day at my altitude with my brass and may have something to do with the planets being aligned, so proceed with caution if you try these. Start a couple grains lower and work up, check your brass after every firing.

I did some research on this pistol. It was manufactured in 1900 at the Tula arsenal for the Imperialist Russian Army. It is a bit crudely made and the trigger pull is rough, but I love this thing!

Here it is, with seven rounds of the ammo I made.

57114

57115

[Dutchman]

The swedes and the russians both used the nagant pattern, although the swedes made theirs with more quality. Most swede nagants are considered extremely collectable and ive not heard of anyone actualy shooting them. The swede has a different calibration than the m95, but theyre both "gas seal" nagant system revolvers.

The Swedish m/1887 and Russian m/1895 are not "pattern" they are 100% Nagant revolvers. The Swedish are handloaded and shot by them who own them.

The Swedish m/1887 is not a gas seal revolver. It is of conventional revolver design. I've owned both. My Swedish Nagant was made in Belgium and was purchased from Eric Nagant the great-grandson of Leon Nagant, the inventor of Liege.

Dutch

http://images60.fotki.com/v661/photos/4/28344/9895637/017x-vi.jpg

[nwellons]

I also use BP only in my Nagant. I use Hot Shot or Privi cases and the .30 carbine die set from Lee. My loads chrono at 1250fps using a Lee 100g cast boolit.

[Chicken Thief]

The swedes and the russians both used the nagant pattern, although the swedes made theirs with more quality. Most swede nagants are considered extremely collectable and ive not heard of anyone actualy shooting them. The swede has a different calibration than the m95, but theyre both "gas seal" nagant system revolvers.

Err, no!
The Swedish (Norwegan and umpteen others) is basic revolver design (Nagant 1878-1882), the russian 1895 is special.

http://www.imssu.org/articles/The%201895%20Nagant%20revolver.pdf

[nhrifle]

I ordered the correct brass from Grafs this morning and I hope I can make one of my shell holders work. Next project is to follow the sticky post on making black powder as I plan on this being my go to powder in this pistol. Thanks everyone for all the input, I love learning new things! Keep it coming so I can stay on the right track.

[Nobade]

32-20 shell holder works great with that brass.

You'll need to expand the new cases to take boolits, but once fireformed they can be loaded without sizing. Just open up any remaining crimp so you can get the boolits in. I seat them with an arbor press and crimp with a 30 carbine taper crimp die. Your Lee set probably will do that too, I've never used any.

[nhrifle]

Thanks Nobade. I read somewhere that people were ripping the rims with the 32-20 shellholder, I was hoping they were wrong. I've been using the 30 Carbine taper crimp to snug the cases on the rounds I have made so far, but if I read correctly, that will form the neck enough to allow for the gas seal?

I have so much to learn for this pistol.............

[nhrifle]

Now that the correct brass will be here soon, what's being used for lubing in this revolver with BP? I don't see enough space in the case to duplicate my BPCR loading techniques. Regular lube? SPG? Some miracle concoction that was long ago forgotten?

[nwellons]

I pan lube with the beeswax, solid crisco, and vegetable oil lube. Forget it's name right now.

[Nobade]

I have been using either Bullshop's NASA or Dick Dastardly's Pearl Lube in the boolit's lube grooves. No wads or anything. With only 5 inches of barrel they don't foul out like rifles. Do compress the powder to get a good burn.

No worries about ripping the rims off if you don't full length size the cases. And no need to do that.

[nhrifle]

Fired a few more rounds this morning with some of the meeker loads. Some fired cases almost drop out of the cylinder, others have to really be smacked. I've even had to tap the ejection rod with a pair of pliers to get a couple cases out. Several of the cases have vertical cracks. The ones that are hard to eject are noticeably bulged just above the head. Is this indicative of using the 32-20 brass, or am I looking at a cylinder defect? Will this maybe go away once I am using the correct brass with black powder?

On the subject of BP, am I better off diong a volume drop or measure my charges for consistency? How much compression of the charge? By either weight or volume, what is a good basic charge of powder?

Thank you all for bearing with a Nagant newbie. Lots of great advice so far.

[nwellons]

As far as BP goes, you shouldn't have sticking cases. I think the pressure curve prevents it since I load at 1250fps with gas seal cartridges and can poke them out with my finger. I don't use my drop tube for Nagant just because it seems to be too much trouble for such a small cartridge. I use the Lee 1cc dipper with Goex FFFg powder and a small magnum rifle primer, add a thin card wad (just because it seems right), and seat the bullet firmly with my small Lee $35 press. Then I crimp with the .30 carbine seating die. If I was a target shooter, I might use a reproducible compression but I'm a plinker and this is fine for me. The magnum rifle primer was needed to get consistent velocities.

[Nobade]

I'd try more powder. I use 1.3cc with #3118 and I believe was able to get 1.5cc in under the Lee bullet. No card and seat bullets flush with the mouth with an arbor press. You should hear powder crunch but not smash it into dust. Maybe 1/8" compression.

[nhrifle]

Nwellons, Nobade, thank you so much. Hopefully I will be able to pick up some commercial black after the cases get here so I can try this. Otherwise I am going to make some and try to get as close to 3F as I can. And thanks for the tip about the primers. I found magnums worked best in my 45/70 as well.

I did load up some more smokeless rounds before it got dark, 8 grains of AA5744, and the cases just needed a gentle push to come out of the cylinder and were very clean shooting. I'm starting to fall in love with this revolver again and it is so much easier than forming brass from .223. If you havn't tried that yet, you should give it a go just for the "been there, done that".

[Kosh75287]

I dunno... I find 100grains at 1250 pretty impressive, whatever the propellant used. This slightly beats the .30 Luger, which is no sloucher, either.

[leadman]

If the correct brass is flaring too much as a gas seal, like mine does, cut the brass off even with the cylinder mouth and load the Lee 93gr boolit even with the end of the case. This boolit is long enough to to form a partial gas seal and keep the velocity up. My gun lost almost 400fps with 32-20 brass.
I use 4 grs of Unique with velocity around 800 fps.
If your brass is sticking and the cases bulging these are indications of too much pressure.

I have some of the Russian surplus ammo and the cases are much thicker than the Privi or Fiochi. I have to chronograph them but have fired them. Recoil is about the same as my loads. The day I fired them was so windy I was afraid my Chrony would blow over if set up.

[hendere]

I've messed around with mine quite a bit, but it seems to shoot pretty much the same no matter what I do with it. Seems more fun (and a lot cleaner) to use the real Nagant brass, but it does take a lot more work. I've found that I definitely needed an RCBS shellholder for the Nagant brass, and to use tons of case lube. I've shot four of them a fair amount and they aren't the most consistant of guns. Some of them used Starline 32-20 brass with no problems, and some wouldn't work at all. The one I shoot the most has one chamber that refuses to take the 32-20 brass. I still enjoy them, and hope to find the magic secret that will suddenly make it shoot 1" groups at 300 yds. :mrgreen:

[Nobade]

I don't understand why you guys are having problems with brass. After it is fireformed I don't do anything to mine other than decap, clean, recap, and reload. I do put a very slight taper crimp on the mouth with a 30 carbine taper drimp die - just enough to let the cases chamber and function but otherwise they are never resized. I tried 32-20 cases but the rims are too thick to work. It will work with 32 H&R cases but I don't see using brass half as long as is correct. The Privi Nagant cases work perfectly, as do the Russian military ones.

[hendere]

If I don't resize my cases each time, they stick pretty bad the second time I shoot them. Also, the cases won't hold boolits smaller than .314, they just fall into the bottom of the case. This happens with both Fiocchi and Privi brass and I've had this experience in at least three revolvers that I can remember. If I resize each time, I have no problems and I have brass that I've loaded 10 times. Maybe this doesn't happen with the black powder loads, and it's very possible that I've had bad luck in choosing the guns I want to shoot. Other's mileage may vary, but that's what's happened to me.

[9.3X62AL]

I'm learning a bunch here--you guys keep on commenting! I've used the now-extinct Starline almost full-length brass (1.46") in my 1916 Tula example, mostly with the Lee 100 grain RN @ .311" and seated just below flush-fit over 3.5-4.0 grains of Unique. I give a short taper-crimp with a 32 SWL sizer die to snug things up (above the boolit shoulder). There are a number of 4"-6" dinger plates at the pistol side of Angeles Shooting Club's public range 35 yards away, and I can keep them ringing and bouncing with the Nagant pretty reliably. My next lots of brass will likely be Fiocchi, purchased as loaded rounds--unless Graf's or elsewhere sells component brass.

[nhrifle]

Agreed, this has become a fascinating thread! Please guys, keep it coming! Good stuff, bad stuff, I don't care!

I just got confirmation from Grafs that my brass has been shipped and will be here in a couple of days, after that I can give the BP loads a try. I'm excited!!!

[Nobade]

Ya, don't bother with the Fiocchi loaded ammo unless you absolutely have to. It is weak, inaccurate, and the cases usually split when you fire them. Graf's has Privi brass pretty cheap, that is the way to go. It is too tight when you get it, has to be expanded to seat a boolit in it but once fireformed it's good to go. Oh, the Privi ammo isn't too great either but at least the cases didn't split so it can be reloaded.

[texassako]

I just loaded up a few to test in a little nitro proofed pocket revolver chambered in 7.62 Nagant. It shot pretty horribly and keyholed with the Privi ammo, and those are the cases I reused. I ironed out the gas seal, belled the mouth, and seated the bullet using my Lee .32 ACP die set. I made an extended seater out of a 1/4" bolt that when adjusted seats the boolit flush in the untrimmed cases. I used 115gr and 77gr boolits over FFFg BP, 1cc dipper with a pinch of cream of wheat and 1.3cc dipper with no filler repectively for about 1/8" of compression in my brass. I decided on not trimming the brass back because the cylinder has no throat per se since the full length brass performs that job.

[9.3X62AL]

Nobade, thanks for the "heads up" concerning Prvi vs. Fiocchi brass in this caliber.

[nhrifle]

The Prvi brass arrived yesterday and I finally got to try out a few new loads with it. Still havn't acquired or made any black powder yet, but I did try FF and FFF pyrodex. The FF seems to give the best performance. It is cold and very windy outside, so I plan on doing accuracy testing once the weather warms, until then I will shoot it for the fun factor. I ran a cylinder of ammo through it after dark and wow -- what a fireball! 1.2 cc (Lee dipper) fills the case and gives a nice bit of compression of the powder, burns fairly clean, and the recoil feels fairly stout. The gas seal feature works nicely as all the fouling is contained in the barrel.

[I'll Make Mine]

Don't forget to clean your revolver again after initial cleaning; I've read too many reports of Pyrodex causing rust after a good cleaning, and would hate to see that happen to a nice Nagant.

[nhrifle]

Thank you and noted. I have been hesitant to use Pyro in it for that reason, but for now I have a couple pounds to burn. I was waiting for the girls to all go to bed and then clean it so the smell wouldn't bother them too much. I'm planning to use some hot soapy water like I do for my front stuffers unless there is a better suggestion, then I will douse the barrel with some gun oil.

I did notice when I was punching out the empties, a couple of them had to be extracted completely from the cylinder, while the others fell freely after getting an initial bump from the ejector. I think a couple of cylinder bores are maybe a little oddly shaped or maybe sized differently than the others. No big deal really, just gave them a quick tap and they slid out fairly easily. And happily, none of the cases split like they did with smokeless!

[I'll Make Mine]

I'm planning to use some hot soapy water like I do for my front stuffers unless there is a better suggestion, then I will douse the barrel with some gun oil.

I've never fired Pyrodex -- it was newfangled stuff last time I did anything with a black powder gun (about 1979-1980) -- but that sounds like a good second cleaning and protection. I might add a swabbing with Hoppe's No. 9 or Ballistol and a few dry patches before the oil, since Pyrodex is a sort of hybrid of smokeless and stuff similar to corrosive primers, and those powder solvents certainly won't harm anything in the bore or cylinder.

[cylinderman]

I use the 32-20 starline brass in mine with Unique and a 100 gr DEWC. I don't even full length size any more, all I do is, I guess you could say, neck size. I run them in my 7.62x25 tok die as far as it will go. This makes about a .400" long neck and gives me the bullet retention needed. The 100 gr DEWC are sized at .314 and seated flush with case mouth. About every 5 th loading I will touch them with the full size die, just enough so that I don't have to spinn any brass to get it to drop in cyl. I am getting around 850-900 fps and is extreamly accurate. My case life is excellent, I have some way over 25 loadings and still looks good.

[kidmma]

Here is how I used the 32-20 brass:


596825968359684



Crimped/seated just deep enough so the cylinder rotates.
Still looking for a consistant load.