Cast bullets with copper enriched alloy

[nighthunter]

I managed to get copper into my alloy by useing both methods being tossed around on here. I first melted copper wire into some babbit metal I had on hand. I also had some WW contaminated with zinc. I alloyed that batch with copper sulfate from a farm suppy store. $15.00 for 5 pounds. It definatly removed the zinc and the ingots do seem harder. The babbit I;m sure took the most copper so I alloyed 1 pound of it into 10 pounds of the enriched WW. I cast 1500 NOE 22-055 bullets wiqth the melt. I have to get some GC'ed and sized and lubed. I plan to try to get up to around 2500 fps in my .223 Savage 340 with a 1-12 twist. Will let you know how it works out.

[runfiverun]

2500 should be a cake walk.
to test the alloy you'll wanna go for 2800 or better.
visually cull ruthlessly and then
weight sort into 0.10 groups and keep the groups together.
use the slowest powder you can fnd data for. [4895 etc]

[popper]

More testing of Cu enriched alloys. This is good. Thanks and be sure to post results.

[badgeredd]

More testing of Cu enriched alloys. This is good. Thanks and be sure to post results.

popper, I couldn't agree more. The more people working with the idea, the better our chances of getting completely new perspectives on the subject.

Edd

[felix]

When the boolit reaches 3000 plus or so, a soft boolit does not have time to strip and streak the barrel. That should be considered when cleaning barrels and seeing no leading at the muzzle. Accuracy, however, is dependent on the boolit being in excellent condition throughout. We want the boolit to be tough enough to withstand acceleration without changing form throughout the barrel which implies the ogive portion will bounce back perfectly from its deformation after the pressure drops. ... felix

[nighthunter]

Observations to date. This alloy casts like a dream. The casting temp is higher than wthout the Cu. Bullet fillout in the mold is complete. The sprue does not dimple like with straight WW. While seperating bullets by weight today I noticed that there is very little varience. My NOE 22-055 mold is dropping bullets at an average of 63.0 grains with GC attatched but not yet sized or lubed. I checked about 250 for weight and none weighed less than 62.8 grains nor weighed more than 63.2 grains. To me this is almost unbelievable consistancy. This also says something good about NOE molds as this is a 4 cavity mold. I also cast up a bunch of 22 Bators and they weigh in at 51.9 grains with even less varience. If a bullet weighs out of regularity with either mold I always find a visual defect that I missed before weighing. I am curious about why there is so little weight varience. I just have never in over 40 years of casting had this type of success with my bullets. Gonna get some sized and lubed and then loaded up. Might be a few weeks before I get to the range. It's going to be weather dependent for awhile.

Nighthunter

[badgeredd]

Observations to date. This alloy casts like a dream. The casting temp is higher than wthout the Cu. Bullet fillout in the mold is complete. The sprue does not dimple like with straight WW. While seperating bullets by weight today I noticed that there is very little varience. My NOE 22-055 mold is dropping bullets at an average of 63.0 grains with GC attatched but not yet sized or lubed. I checked about 250 for weight and none weighed less than 62.8 grains nor weighed more than 63.2 grains. To me this is almost unbelievable consistancy. This also says something good about NOE molds as this is a 4 cavity mold. I also cast up a bunch of 22 Bators and they weigh in at 51.9 grains with even less varience. If a bullet weighs out of regularity with either mold I always find a visual defect that I missed before weighing. I am curious about why there is so little weight varience. I just have never in over 40 years of casting had this type of success with my bullets. Gonna get some sized and lubed and then loaded up. Might be a few weeks before I get to the range. It's going to be weather dependent for awhile.

Nighthunter

I believe you'll find that it is best to wait at least a few weeks to load the copper enhanced boolits. You'll likely find they grow a bit over the next 2 to 3 months so loading them to just touch the rifling may render them too long if they continue to grow a bit. BTW, it tickles me to see guys trying the addition of copper to their boolit alloy. Like I said above, the more that try it, the more information we'll have as a group about it. ALSO, you have tried what I intend to try very soon. I had a suspicion that adding copper via popper's method and then adding babbit with copper might yield a higher copper content...which hopefully will add to the boolit "toughness."

I'd be interested to see if you can work up to loads in the 2800-3000 fps range WITH accuracy. Please continue posting your experiences with the copper enhanced alloys. Thank you.

Edd

[45 2.1]

Copper alloys have been around a long time.... and have been written about that long also. The problem before was replacing what worked after it ran out with the same thing. Now that is not so much of a problem....... BUT, what do you actually have with that copper alloy? I suspect it will be hard besides being tough..... and you should be able to shoot it at basically full velocity. If you use a boolit design with a big flat meplat, all is well a good until it decelerates to a certain velocity. Conventional designs with a small meplat will get you a FMJ and the performance associated with it. Having seen 357 Maximum recovered boolit pictures it looks like its a solid FMJ performance type that barely looses weight. I don't think it will expand and his pictures show that........... Basically its a special use alloy. I've shot enough varmints with solids, both with small and large meplats to know whats gonna happen...... myself I'll choose an expanding boolit.... just like what the jacketed bullet industry does for conventional usage.

[Nrut]

Copper alloys have been around a long time.... and have been written about that long also. The problem before was replacing what worked after it ran out with the same thing. Now that is not so much of a problem....... BUT, what do you actually have with that copper alloy? I suspect it will be hard besides being tough..... and you should be able to shoot it at basically full velocity. If you use a boolit design with a big flat meplat, all is well a good until it decelerates to a certain velocity. Conventional designs with a small meplat will get you a FMJ and the performance associated with it. Having seen 357 Maximum recovered boolit pictures it looks like its a solid FMJ performance type that barely looses weight. I don't think it will expand and his pictures show that........... Basically its a special use alloy. I've shot enough varmints with solids, both with small and large meplats to know whats gonna happen...... myself I'll choose an expanding boolit.... just like what the jacketed bullet industry does for conventional usage.
Harder HP bullets than these low copper alloy bullets are used for hunting every day.

-CEB's harder HP made of brass noses blow off and cause a great amount of damage.
http://site.cuttingedgebullets.com/
See the "Terminal Bullet Performance" over at Accurate Reloading in the big bore Forum

-Barnes "X" copper bullets are harder also and they to kill very well.

-Or make a dual alloy nose.
-Maybe the noses can be annealed also.


I have no clue and won't know until this spring/summer until I can join the testing, but already have a supply of Super Tough and will be getting some copper sulfate next time I go to the big city.
The way I look at it there are a bunch of unanswered questions but at least we are moving forward toward Hi-Vel cast bullet shooting.
If there problems with these high copper content cast bullets for hunting they'll be worked out I am sure.
It's going to be fun!
And that's why we do this.
Cause I sure ain't saving any money by making my own bullets.[smilie=1: [smilie=1:[smilie=1:

[Stephen Cohen]

This is a very interesting topic. has anyone tried casting pure lead tips, with this alloy.

[leadman]

With linotype I can hit 3K fps with the Lyman 46gr RN with decent accuracy. Oven treated WW will do it also, water quench not so well.
I used some babbit containing copper and it made a very good alloy.
Looks like I have something else to investigate!

[303Guy]

I'd like to hear more on melting the copper wire into the babbit. I tried the copper sulphate method and found it not quite so easy to do. The fumes did seem to clear my nasal congestion though![smilie=1:

[popper]

The fumes did seem to clear my nasal congestion though! What fumes? Should just be water and it does make some nasty dust. Make sure you get copper sulphate if using the root killer, there is another copper solution (ammonium, I believe) that is used.

[303Guy]

I got copper sulphate sold as such. It was very 'wet'. The fumes smelled like sulphur I think - not too sure. It made me sneeze a lot and gave me a runny nose. It left a copper taste in the back of my mouth. My ventilation 'arrangement' was a failure.

[nighthunter]

I got my copper sulfate at a farm supply and feed store. It was sold by the pound @ $3.50 per pound. It is a blue granular (like sand) shape. The lady at the store said it is commonly used by farmers for many things. Try one of this type of store to be certain you get the right stuff.

Nighthunter

[John in WI]

I've never done the copper sulfate method so I'm not trying to pretend I'm an expert. But sulfate should decompose to sulfur dioxide with heating. And sulfur dioxide should have a distinctive smell. If I remember, it smells kind of like when you first light a match (not like rotten eggs which smell because of H2S not SO2)

[shadygrady]

send that zinc to me for lead

[GabbyM]

It’s a little past my bedtime here:

I’ve this pile of around 4,000 pounds of very pure Pb.
Kind of hate to contaminate it with anything.
However if I wanted to harden this pure Pb with copper. What would the process be to get it to an alloy for revolver boolits for 38 Special power level. aka BHN #12.
Then BHN #15 for the magnums.

? do I need to add zinc in order to draw the copper from the copper sulfate?

[madsenshooter]

So don't do the whole 2 tons at once! Yes, add zinc in the percentage you want to come up to with copper. Thinking maybe we got too many working on it now and will come up with lots of different formulas to sort through. 45 2.1, they will be some HP 6mm expansion tests tmrw. Red clay substituting for ballistic gelatin.

[GabbyM]

So don't do the whole 2 tons at once! Yes, add zinc in the percentage you want to come up to with copper. Thinking maybe we got too many working on it now and will come up with lots of different formulas to sort through. 45 2.1, they will be some HP 6mm expansion tests tmrw. Red clay substituting for ballistic gelatin.

well that's a pretty safe bet as I've only got a 7 quart pot. Full pot is about 80 pounds.

[badgeredd]

Copper alloys have been around a long time.... and have been written about that long also. The problem before was replacing what worked after it ran out with the same thing. Now that is not so much of a problem....... BUT, what do you actually have with that copper alloy? I suspect it will be hard besides being tough..... and you should be able to shoot it at basically full velocity. If you use a boolit design with a big flat meplat, all is well a good until it decelerates to a certain velocity. Conventional designs with a small meplat will get you a FMJ and the performance associated with it. Having seen 357 Maximum recovered boolit pictures it looks like its a solid FMJ performance type that barely looses weight. I don't think it will expand and his pictures show that........... Basically its a special use alloy. I've shot enough varmints with solids, both with small and large meplats to know whats gonna happen...... myself I'll choose an expanding boolit.... just like what the jacketed bullet industry does for conventional usage.

Bob,

Have you tried mixing up some alloy with the babbit I gave you to try out? I suggest you mix some to try with your guns to see if you might have a different opinion based on actual personal knowledge. You'll be surprised what happens with a balanced alloy using COWW and pure lead, water dropped.

Edd

[MikeS]

Another option to get an alloy with copper in it, although being a more expensive method, is something I've been thinking of doing for a while now, and that is to buy some Lyman #1 alloy from Rotometals. I don't know how much would need to be ordered for them to make up a batch of it, but perhaps we could get several folks here willing to split up an order of it so it wouldn't be too expensive for them to do. Lyman #1 alloy for anyone that is unfamiliar with it is: 80%Pb, 10%Sn, 7%Sb, 3%Cu. I would think this would be a good place to start experimentation with a known alloy that is toughened with CU. So is anyone interested?

[45 2.1]

Bob, Have you tried mixing up some alloy with the babbit I gave you to try out? Yes, I tried both the alloy suggestions your alloy calculator gave. It gave a quite hard tough alloy, it was about the same as two different copper babbit alloys I used in the early 80's. It wasn't quite as hard as the zinc boolits I cast about a year after those. All of them were reasonably accurate considering the stock Lyman molds I had then. They were as accurate as any of the jacketed loads I shot (not withstanding match hollow points put out by Sierra). They all acted like FMJs though... they shot right thru coyotes with little DRT attributes and I mostly lost the fur price because of it. I searched for an alternative before coming on the 50/50 WW and Pb alloy... that solved the problem for me. I suggest you mix some to try with your guns to see if you might have a different opinion based on actual personal knowledge. The route your taking with the big flat nose and increased velocity is the correct one for that hard alloy, and about the only way that normal casters (with the equipment they have) can use to get faster velocities with good killing effect..... although the WD WW/Pb alloy will expand nicely at 2400 fps and kills well to 400 yards. You'll be surprised what happens with a balanced alloy using COWW and pure lead, water dropped. I suggested that alloy to 357 Maximum a little after telling BABore about it (quite some years ago before 357 Maximum introduced us). I know exactly what can be done with it because I believe i'm the one who brought it to this board. I've used it since the late 80's or so.

[madsenshooter]

Another option to get an alloy with copper in it, although being a more expensive method, is something I've been thinking of doing for a while now, and that is to buy some Lyman #1 alloy from Rotometals. I don't know how much would need to be ordered for them to make up a batch of it, but perhaps we could get several folks here willing to split up an order of it so it wouldn't be too expensive for them to do. Lyman #1 alloy for anyone that is unfamiliar with it is: 80%Pb, 10%Sn, 7%Sb, 3%Cu. I would think this would be a good place to start experimentation with a known alloy that is toughened with CU. So is anyone interested?

I use a babbitt, that already has some copper, .25%. Adding pure Pb, copper wick up that my cousin saves for me, and some tin/cu bars that I have should allow me get the Ideal #1 alloy. May be awhile before I get around to figuring the proper amounts though. It will have a teenie bit of As in it too. 3% Cu seems like a lot, but I'll try it. If I remember, I asked Rotometals once and the minimum was 100lbs. Start a group buy.

[Ron.D]

Does anyone have any idea if a soft nose boolit would slump during acceleration, if 2500 was the velocity target? I'd hate to think of it getting ironed into the bore as the body of the boolit passed by. I have a soft nose mold made by Dan at mountain molds back when he was doing them. It's a .358 that weighs in at 234 grs. with about 90 grs in the nose. My thought is to use approx. 30-1 so that it wouldn't harden when I heat treat the whole boolit.
In your search for tin-copper alloy sources, don't forget that a lot of lead free solder is comprised of 97-3 Sn-Cu. When I retired from my plumbing business, I had about 25lbs. in stock, now I'm glad I did. Lead free solder can have a few variations, but Econo-sol and Aqua-sol are 2 among others that are 97-3 and are available at many hardware and plumbing outlets. Ron.D

[357maximum]

Bob, Have you tried mixing up some alloy with the babbit I gave you to try out? Yes, I tried both the alloy suggestions your alloy calculator gave. It gave a quite hard tough alloy, it was about the same as two different copper babbit alloys I used in the early 80's. It wasn't quite as hard as the zinc boolits I cast about a year after those. All of them were reasonably accurate considering the stock Lyman molds I had then. They were as accurate as any of the jacketed loads I shot (not withstanding match hollow points put out by Sierra). They all acted like FMJs though... they shot right thru coyotes with little DRT attributes and I mostly lost the fur price because of it. I searched for an alternative before coming on the 50/50 WW and Pb alloy... that solved the problem for me. I suggest you mix some to try with your guns to see if you might have a different opinion based on actual personal knowledge. The route your taking with the big flat nose and increased velocity is the correct one for that hard alloy, and about the only way that normal casters (with the equipment they have) can use to get faster velocities with good killing effect..... although the WD WW/Pb alloy will expand nicely at 2400 fps and kills well to 400 yards. You'll be surprised what happens with a balanced alloy using COWW and pure lead, water dropped. I suggested that alloy to 357 Maximum a little after telling BABore about it (quite some years ago before 357 Maximum introduced us). I know exactly what can be done with it because I believe i'm the one who brought it to this board. I've used it since the late 80's or so.

BS..............Your ego overwhelms your memory. The first I heard of it was from Edd and then from Bruce not long after. I am not saying you have not done it as God knows you have done everything thrice and you have the t-shirt to prove it. It is too bad it is such a nice shirt you will not bring it out of storage and show it to others though. When I want to dust a coyote I use a JACKETED TNT hollowpoint and let the buzzards sort out the rest. Boolits that lose any and all integrity when striking flesh have never been my goal. I believe that is what you wanna do from your vast experience shooting things that you wanna shoot....my experiences with only a few hundred deer kills point in exactly the opposite direction from VARMINT boolits.

[357maximum]

Does anyone have any idea if a soft nose boolit would slump during acceleration, if 2500 was the velocity target? I'd hate to think of it getting ironed into the bore as the body of the boolit passed by. I have a soft nose mold made by Dan at mountain molds back when he was doing them. It's a .358 that weighs in at 234 grs. with about 90 grs in the nose. My thought is to use approx. 30-1 so that it wouldn't harden when I heat treat the whole boolit.
. Ron.D

IMO that would depend alot/mostly on boolit design and fit.


Personally I would go another way if I wanted to ensure the nose expanded on smaller fleshy things. I would waterdrop the Cu enriched alloy and then anneal only the nose while the boolit stood up to the crimp groove in a shallow pan of water using a handheld LP torch. I totally gave up and sold all of my softnose combo moulds when I learned of the torch annealed nose trick from BaBore.....it works and I do not have to fum bumble noses around into a hot mould....simple/easy and it works.....why burn your fingers?

These Cu enriched alloys are capable of alot of thrust/pressure even without being waterdropped so maybe aircooling the whole boolit would work just as well....It really would depend on what you was planning to shoot with the boolit.

[badgeredd]

Bob, Have you tried mixing up some alloy with the babbit I gave you to try out? Yes, I tried both the alloy suggestions your alloy calculator gave. It gave a quite hard tough alloy, it was about the same as two different copper babbit alloys I used in the early 80's.Odd that this is the first time you've mentioned babbit in boolits. It wasn't quite as hard as the zinc boolits I cast about a year after those. All of them were reasonably accurate considering the stock Lyman molds I had then. They were as accurate as any of the jacketed loads I shot (not withstanding match hollow points put out by Sierra). They all acted like FMJs though... they shot right thru coyotes with little DRT attributes and I mostly lost the fur price because of it. I searched for an alternative before coming on the 50/50 WW and Pb alloy... that solved the problem for me. I suggest you mix some to try with your guns to see if you might have a different opinion based on actual personal knowledge. The route your taking with the big flat nose and increased velocity is the correct one for that hard alloy, and about the only way that normal casters (with the equipment they have) can use to get faster velocities with good killing effect..... although the WD WW/Pb alloy will expand nicely at 2400 fps and kills well to 400 yards. You're missing the point...2400 is attainable but we're trying for much higher velocities measured with a chronograph for verification. You'll be surprised what happens with a balanced alloy using COWW and pure lead, water dropped. I suggested that alloy to 357 Maximum a little after telling BABore about it (quite some years ago before 357 Maximum introduced us). I know exactly what can be done with it because I believe i'm the one who brought it to this board. I've used it since the late 80's or so. WW cut with soft lead does not yield a balanced alloy.

Edd

[Dutch4122]

Bob, Have you tried mixing up some alloy with the babbit I gave you to try out? Yes, I tried both the alloy suggestions your alloy calculator gave. It gave a quite hard tough alloy, it was about the same as two different copper babbit alloys I used in the early 80's. It wasn't quite as hard as the zinc boolits I cast about a year after those. All of them were reasonably accurate considering the stock Lyman molds I had then. They were as accurate as any of the jacketed loads I shot (not withstanding match hollow points put out by Sierra). They all acted like FMJs though... they shot right thru coyotes with little DRT attributes and I mostly lost the fur price because of it. I searched for an alternative before coming on the 50/50 WW and Pb alloy... that solved the problem for me. I suggest you mix some to try with your guns to see if you might have a different opinion based on actual personal knowledge. The route your taking with the big flat nose and increased velocity is the correct one for that hard alloy, and about the only way that normal casters (with the equipment they have) can use to get faster velocities with good killing effect..... although the WD WW/Pb alloy will expand nicely at 2400 fps and kills well to 400 yards. You'll be surprised what happens with a balanced alloy using COWW and pure lead, water dropped. I suggested that alloy to 357 Maximum a little after telling BABore about it (quite some years ago before 357 Maximum introduced us). I know exactly what can be done with it because I believe i'm the one who brought it to this board. I've used it since the late 80's or so.


Gotta call BS on this claim as well. No need to beat around the bush about it.

Also, you seem to have claimed to do a lot of things back in the 80's that you've never proven to the rest of us during our past yearly get togethers; which total 4 different weekends in the last 5 years. During those times and as well as during numerous phone conversations several years ago I don't ever remember you mentioning the use of anything other than 50% wheelweight and 50% pure lead as boolit alloy. You did state that you had tried other alloys; but you did not elaborate further. And, you never stated anything to the effect that you had tried copper enriched babbit based alloys; even when Edd was talking about them right in front of all of us as a group.

The thing I don't understand is this; why hold back knowledge of alloys that will work for certain high velocity/pressure rifle applications from your friends who are unknowingly trying to duplicate work that you claim to have done decades ago? All I wanted to do was to get my rifles to shoot like real rifles with cast bullets; not like high powered small-bore handguns. If you had used copper enriched (babbitt based) alloys in the past why didn't you share your knowledge with all of us in 2010 when Edd came to his first get together in Edmore? Mike was shooting his .35 Whelen with Edd's alloy water dropped and attaining velocities with accuracy that I didn't think were possible. Bruce had been using Edd's babitt for a while and had his 8mm 98K with the 22 inch barrel shooting better than before at higher velocity. Even my own feeble attempt to get my stock 1891 Argentine Mauser running to match the original service load worked because of the boolits being cast with a small amount of Edd's babbitt added. How else could I have got the poorly fitting 314299 to shoot that accurately being propelled by a powder (RL-19) that we now know produces a muzzle pressure way too high in that cartridge for accuracy with 50% wheelweight and 50% pure lead? I won't even go into great detail about the fact that same boolit, again fit poorly, but still shot like gangbusters out of my Spanish FR-8's 16 inch barrel using a full load of IMR-4007ssc which had to be some serious muzzle pressure.

I guess we were all just supposed to twist in the wind and stumble along a blind path that was copper enriched babbit alloys; wasting a lot of work, time, and money to find out that they didn't work because of some nebulous obscure reason muddied by half truths and riddles. Funny thing is, the proof is on the targets and in the game animals taken so far. And as far as I'm concerned, betting the whole shooting match on EDD'S Copper Enriched Babbit Alloys is the way to go.

Sorry Bob, but I can no longer "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" while the Great and Powerful Oz feeds me disinformation.

[swheeler]

Looks like I got to get a little copper in my alloy, thanks for the info guys.:)

[45 2.1]

I note that Edds join date is Feb 2008, Matts join date is Mar 2005, Mikes join date is Jan 2006, my join date is Mar 2005. I have 109 e-mails from Mike that give a different story than the BS statement he made given above where he clearly states just who told him the alloy. As for not interjecting something that has already been done and written about for about 100 years..... nobody from Michigan has taken much at face value, all of you had to try it to see if it was true. It does no good to tell you anything until your ready to hear it. Matt, Bruce, Edd... you want to see Mikes e-mails, I would forward them to you.

[swheeler]

sour grapes Bob

[45 2.1]

Bob,

Have you tried mixing up some alloy with the babbit I gave you to try out? I suggest you mix some to try with your guns to see if you might have a different opinion based on actual personal knowledge. You'll be surprised what happens with a balanced alloy using COWW and pure lead, water dropped.

Edd

WW cut with soft lead does not yield a balanced alloy.

Edd


OK, not having the multi quote working correctly is a pain, but here goes. Edd, you said " You'll be surprised what happens with a balanced alloy using COWW and pure lead, water dropped." in the last sentence of the first quote. In the second quote you say " WW cut with soft lead does not yield a balanced alloy." I would be interested to know three things: 1) which statement you said is right to you, since you posted both? 2) Just when did you tell (Month and Year OR pre or post join, Feb 2008, date on your data) Mike about 50/50 WW/Pb alloy? 3) Why is your join date about 2 1/2 years after this forum re-uped.

[45 2.1]

sour grapes Bob

Hey Scott........ your always welcome to discuss it on Accurate and not clutter this board up... that is IF your able.

[357maximum]

Bob

Please feel free to post any and all emails you have from me PUBLICLY...you have my public permission iffin ya answer one itty bitty question publicly.

Why the h*** would you store old emails from someone that considers/considered? you a friend? I know the emails are old as you have not typed or talked to me since I razzed you in person at my shoot this spring about your super duper speedy and accurate 2400+ fps 25/06 loads that only did 1900 when run over a chrony.


At this point I will publicly apologize to the rest of the membership here for letting something that should have been private into the public....I honestly felt I had no choice but to call a spade a spade. I apologize for my character flaw.


With that out of the way can we keep talking about Cu enhance alloys now?

[swheeler]

I don't have much to do with the Arab's site anymore, that's you and your sidekicks hangout, pretty dead as I see it anyways. I can get all the facts I need about this alloy right here from the guys that know, Mike, Matt and Edd. Thanks for the offer though, much appreciated Bobby.

[357maximum]

3) Why is your join date about 2 1/2 years after this forum re-uped.

Believe it or not Bob....I was working alot/ just living and doing my thing as I have always done....there are other things than the internet and the associated gurus that come with it. One can melt lead away from the keyboard and without the computer on.....I have seen it done in fact.

[357maximum]

Mike about 50/50 WW/Pb alloy? .


Bob

Are we still talking about Cu enriched alloys here?......I think we are on different pages. Yes you did recommend the 50/50 pure/ww to me and it works great to a point ....that is not what we are discussing on this thread. We all know what that beatiful alloy does and where it fails.....we are trying to get beyond that with some extra tin and copper.....have you hit your head recently?....truly concerned for your well being there chief.

[45 2.1]

Bob

Please feel free to post any and all emails you have from me PUBLICLY...you have my public permission iffin ya answer one itty bitty question publicly.

Why the h*** would you store old emails from someone that considers/considered? you a friend? I know the emails are old as you have not typed or talked to me since I razzed you in person at my shoot this spring about your super duper speedy and accurate 2400+ fps 25/06 loads that only did 1900 when run over a chrony.


At this point I will publicly apologize to the rest of the membership here for letting something that should have been private into the public....I honestly felt I had no choice but to call a spade a spade. I apologize for my character flaw.


With that out of the way can we keep talking about Cu enhance alloys now?

Yahoo stores them nicely in folders without too much help from me. The real answer should be obvious to you........... and Post #33 was directed at Edd, not you.

Enough of this on this thread, you all know how to use e-mail or PMs.

[357maximum]

Yahoo stores them nicely in folders without too much help from me. The real answer should be obvious to you........... and Post #33 was directed at Edd, not you.

Enough of this on this thread, you all know how to use e-mail or PMs.


Bob

The real answer is painfully obvious to me....I was just seeing how well the transmission lines into the new bunker your digging were working....not too good apparently.


not only do I know how to use email and pm's... I also know how to dial a phone.....that does require someone on the other end to pick it up and answer it though....ain't figgered out how to make someone put down their shovel and do that however.

now on with the show.................thus far tonight we have learned that Wd'ed 50/50 = good and that adding a bit of tin and copper to the fray make it Mo' Betta........am I keeping up with the curve? :lol:

[Dutch4122]

I note that Edds join date is Feb 2008, Matts join date is Mar 2005, Mikes join date is Jan 2006, my join date is Mar 2005. I have 109 e-mails from Mike that give a different story than the BS statement he made given above where he clearly states just who told him the alloy. As for not interjecting something that has already been done and written about for about 100 years.....You never, ever mentioned that in the past either. Seems to me that two and a half years ago would have been a good time. If you had the books why not share them? nobody from Michigan has taken much at face value,What were we supposed to take at face value? Exagerrated claims made here at Cast Boolits with a keyboard? You brought one Ruger semi-auto .45 pistol with 7 rounds to the first get together at Bruce's house. The next year we traveled to your place in Southern Illinois with my camper and you brought out a 24/47 Yugo shooting the 200 grn 8mm SIL loaded over 15 grains of Unique; and a few Mosin Nagant carbines that you didn't shoot, but judging by the rust I saw in the end of their bores I could tell you'd been shooting them with corrosive milsurp ammo. The third year you brought the new Marlin Stainless .357 Mag carbine which shot incredibly at 300 yards with your 360640-PBHP; and a semi-auto Soumi 9mm that none of us that tried it could hit anything with. Fourth year was a scratch due to conflicting schedules. And last summer, a 1903 Springfield with some low powered load that sounded like 13-15 grains of Unique again, the same 24/47 Yugo with the same 200 grn SIL and 15 grains of Unique, again. And, a Remington 25-06 with a load you said was 2,400 fps; but really turned out to be 1,900 fps when it was shot over my chronograph. Common denominator, nothing over 2,000 fps yet. Even after you had been told several times by Mike, Edd, and Bruce to bring the rifles with the high velocity sooper dooper pooper scooper clumping filler loads and shoot the darn things in front of us (or have Bruce shoot the groups) as witnesses to the fact that your 6.5 Swede load techniques worked at the velocities claimed with accuracy you still didn't do it. Instead we got excuses. all of you had to try it to see if it was true. It does no good to tell you anything until your ready to here it.I've heard a lot and spent a lot of time trying to decipher it. Mostly vague and incomplete information. Quite a bit of it contradictory if one goes back to the "teacher" for more info often enough. Always something left out that somebody didn't do right or was accused of not listening the first time. Another kernal of info that doesn't change the results for those that were trying. Matt, Bruce, Edd... you want to see Mikes e-mails, I would forward them to you.


You already have my email address. Feel free to send them.

So, once again, here I am full circle. Somebody told me once that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Time to get off that train was a while ago. Please don't worry about leaving me at the station as I hopped over to a passing train before the last stop.

[Dutch4122]

Enough of this on this thread, you all know how to use e-mail or PMs.

By the way, don't presume to be ordering anybody around here. Last I checked I was a grown man that had been around the block once or twice. I guess that means I can decide for myself how, why, and when I respond to, or deal with this little disagreement.

No more holding court over our little group like some kind of "Grand Pooh-Bah" passing judgement on everyone else's hard work while bringing nothing to the party. Got it?

[Mooseman]

Guys...This either stays on track or Gets shutdown and we will NOT tolerate personal attacks of any kind here.PERIOD.

[Dutch4122]

Guys...This either stays on track or Gets shutdown and we will NOT tolerate personal attacks of any kind here.PERIOD.


That is more than fair enough for me. My sincerest apologies to all the membership and moderators here for getting off track.

Now back to the business at hand.

The following alloy is a base copper enriched alloy that Edd recently worked up on his alloy calculator. From our previous experiments Edd was able to determine that a balanced alloy works the best for higher velocity/pressure rifle loads. The way it works is this; once this alloy is mixed up in the casting pot you can then add pure lead to it in any amount and the resulting alloy will remain balanced so that the amounts of Copper and Antimony combined will equal the amount of tin in the mix. The remaining elements will be almost entirely pure lead, with the usual small amounts of trace elements.

In other words, mix up this base alloy; and then add pure lead to it in order to soften it to different degrees when water dropped. Edd also advises to "add no more pure lead than 1/2 the weight of COWW in the balanced alloy base mix." Any more than that and you will be producing alloys that won't provide any benefits over 50% COWW and 50% pure lead, even when water dropped.

Here is the base alloy given as a total of 9.985 pounds:

9.56 lbs of Clip On Wheel Weight Alloy (153 ounces)

.425 lbs of Roto-Nickle Grade 2 Babbit as sold by Roto-Metals (6.8 ounces)

As you can see, the total amount in the base alloy of this expensive babbit is less than 1/2 of a pound for every 10 pounds of alloy. After the pure lead is added that amount will decrease even more in your total alloy. In other words, a little bit of babbit goes a long way.

Now, obviously it is difficult to get the total weights down to exactly .001 lb. or .01 lb. What I do is use a bass fishing scale set to zero with a light weight small metal bucket hanging on it. I cut or chop ingots of the needed COWW or babbit until they weigh out to within .1 lb. of what I need. That's close enough and it goes in the pot. Heat it up. Flux lightly and it's ready to cast. If you have a 20 lb. casting pot you will double the amounts going into the alloy; a 40 lb. pot will require that they be quadrupled, etc.

That's it. I encourage, and I think Edd would agree that we welcome, other members to try these alloys in high velocity/pressure rifle loads (water dropped) as well as full tilt magnum pistol loads (air cooled) in both handguns & carbines.

Any and all thanks or credit for this information goes to BadgerEdd.

[popper]

Stephen Cohen - I don't know how making 'soft-points' from this would work. I think the purpose of this alloy is tougher to avoid slump , etc., at HV - maybe HP? You can't anneal it, it appears to have same hardness AC or WD after a day. WD is hard in 1 hr. First time I've used it, maybe others with more experience can chime in. For me it works better than sulfur toughening and is cheaper and easier. Good hammer expansion and not brittle.

[badgeredd]

I note that Edds join date is Feb 2008, Matts join date is Mar 2005, Mikes join date is Jan 2006, my join date is Mar 2005. I have 109 e-mails from Mike that give a different story than the BS statement he made given above where he clearly states just who told him the alloy. As for not interjecting something that has already been done and written about for about 100 years..... nobody from Michigan has taken much at face value, all of you had to try it to see if it was true. It does no good to tell you anything until your ready to hear it. Matt, Bruce, Edd... you want to see Mikes e-mails, I would forward them to you.

AGAIN Bob, you are missing the point. This thread is not about 50/50 alloy. It IS about alloy (which may be 50/50) that is enriched with copper. You had no hand in or contribution to the experiments. I thank you for putting myself as well as others on to the 50/50 mix, it is an improvement over straight COWW alloy but it fails when one loads a high pressure/high velocity load above 2400 fps. Actually it is a three part alloy that Larry Gibson based a lot of his past experiments on and formulated the RPM threshold theory on. Larry has been helpful in my experiments by providing information about high copper alloys as written about by Townsend Whelen. His information caused me to slightly change my direction in my experiments with a copper enhanced alloy. Larry has also provided me some truly helpful information about how the copper seems to affect peak pressure.

When someone has joined the forum has absolutely nothing to do with what they have learned or done. It isn't relevant to the topic at hand. It is no more relevant than their birth date. Time only proves age, nothing about knowledge. I dare say I have learned a lot about lube and other things from guys who have joined the forum after I did and who are younger than I. As for emails from anyone, I really don't care what you are trying to prove...again it has nothing to do with the topic of copper enriched alloys. I suggest you contribute facts to the thread that are relevant to the thread.

"...nobody from Michigan has taken much at face value, all of you had to try it to see if it was true." Sorry if this offends you, we all have a need to try things for ourselves to understand what is going on. I've learned a bunch from guys here by trying what they said did or did not work...it is how I learn and accumulate a data base for future reference.

Edd

[badgeredd]

That is more than fair enough for me. My sincerest apologies to all the membership and moderators here for getting off track.

Now back to the business at hand.

The following alloy is a base copper enriched alloy that Edd recently worked up on his alloy calculator. From our previous experiments Edd was able to determine that a balanced alloy works the best for higher velocity/pressure rifle loads. The way it works is this; once this alloy is mixed up in the casting pot you can then add pure lead to it in any amount and the resulting alloy will remain balanced so that the amounts of Copper and Antimony combined will equal the amount of tin in the mix. The remaining elements will be almost entirely pure lead, with the usual small amounts of trace elements.

In other words, mix up this base alloy; and then add pure lead to it in order to soften it to different degrees when water dropped. Edd also advises to "add no more pure lead than 1/2 the weight of COWW in the balanced alloy base mix." Any more than that and you will be producing alloys that won't provide any benefits over 50% COWW and 50% pure lead, even when water dropped.

Here is the base alloy given as a total of 9.985 pounds:

9.56 lbs of Clip On Wheel Weight Alloy 153 ozs.


.425 lbs of Roto-Nickle Grade 2 Babbit as sold by Roto-Metals 6.8 ozs.

As you can see, the total amount in the base alloy of this expensive babbit is less than 1/2 of a pound for every 10 pounds of alloy. After the pure lead is added that amount will decrease even more in your total alloy. In other words, a little bit of babbit goes a long way.

Now, obviously it is difficult to get the total weights down to exactly .001 lb. or .01 lb. What I do is use a bass fishing scale set to zero with a light weight small metal bucket hanging on it. I cut or chop ingots of the needed COWW or babbit until they weigh out to within .1 lb. of what I need. That's close enough and it goes in the pot. Heat it up. Flux lightly and it's ready to cast. If you have a 20 lb. casting pot you will double the amounts going into the alloy; a 40 lb. pot will require that they be quadrupled, etc.

That's it. I encourage, and I think Edd would agree that we welcome, other members to try these alloys in high velocity/pressure rifle loads (water dropped) as well as full tilt magnum pistol loads (air cooled) in both handguns & carbines.

Any and all thanks or credit for this information goes to BadgerEdd.

This basic alloy has close to the following percentages of the base metals:

90.48% Pb
4.39% Sn
4.28% Sb
0.15% Cu
0.24% As

It probably wouldn't (but I haven't tried it) work as is for an alloy for hunting as is, but by adding 5 # pure lead one gets an alloy with near 3% Sn and a nearly equal total of Sb/Cu which makes a good hunting boolit that can be pushed to higher pressures and velocities without alloy failure. In my experiments to date, I have found that one doesn't need a high concentration of copper to have a noticable effect on boolit performance. It also has caused me to experiment with higher copper content in a balanced alloy to see where that goes. We're currently working on trying to get the copper content up to about 0.5%. Judging from what I have read from others, I suspect that the "balance" in an alloy is just as important as getting the copper into the mix to start with. I may be wrong, but that is where my playing is leading me.

To me "popper's" method of adding copper to an alloy may prove beneficial in raising the copper content in an alloy. I haven't as yet tried it so, I can't say if I will use it much in the future, primarily because it varies enough from my current methods that it won't allow me to continue with my experiments. I definitely will try it to remove zinc from some contaminated alloy! My biggest problem is I don't fully understand how one "knows" how much copper he is adding to an alloy which kinda confuses my experiments into how much copper is enough and when does the content become too much.

Edd

[onceabull]

Not a lot to be gained by trying to inject reality into an professional engineers life... Onceabull

[nighthunter]

Trying to stay on topic ... so ..... During the last week or so I trimmed and deburred about 3500 .223 cases. Today I was looking at the pile of brass cuttings and had an idea (kinda hard to believe). I melted up a pot of 50/50, COWW/soft lead. This was in a Lee 20 lb. pot. I cranked the dial to 10 and let it heat up. I then added 2 tablespoons of the brass trimmings and let them heat up. I worked them into the sides of the pot for about 15 minutes then fluxed the alloy several times. There were a few small flakes of brass still visible but I couldn't get the last to alloy into the melt. I cleaned the dross off the top of the pot wich appeared to be what usually cleans out of smelted WW. I then cast up some bullets with the alloy. After sitting for about 6 hours these bullets are HARD. I think I accomplished nearly the same as adding just the copper into the alloy. I know I added a small amount of zinc but the amount should have been minimal. Copper + Zinc = Brass.

Nighthunter

[badgeredd]

Trying to stay on topic ... so ..... During the last week or so I trimmed and deburred about 3500 .223 cases. Today I was looking at the pile of brass cuttings and had an idea (kinda hard to believe). I melted up a pot of 50/50, COWW/soft lead. This was in a Lee 20 lb. pot. I cranked the dial to 10 and let it heat up. I then added 2 tablespoons of the brass trimmings and let them heat up. I worked them into the sides of the pot for about 15 minutes then fluxed the alloy several times. There were a few small flakes of brass still visible but I couldn't get the last to alloy into the melt. I cleaned the dross off the top of the pot wich appeared to be what usually cleans out of smelted WW. I then cast up some bullets with the alloy. After sitting for about 6 hours these bullets are HARD. I think I accomplished nearly the same as adding just the copper into the alloy. I know I added a small amount of zinc but the amount should have been minimal. Copper + Zinc = Brass.

Nighthunter

Nighthunter,

Can you check the BHn on the castings?

The test will be in the shooting as to whether or not you've accomplished something similar to adding copper. Popper has mentioned hammering a boolit to kinda test the "toughness" of the alloy. You might want to try the same thing to see if the boolits are brittle as well as hard. Either way it should help us all to understand what the characteristics are of the alloy. I'd guess that even if it is brittle, it still will allow you to load to higher pressure than WW alloy before you experience alloy failure.
Let us know will you?

Edd

[GabbyM]

Trying to stay on topic ... so ..... During the last week or so I trimmed and deburred about 3500 .223 cases. Today I was looking at the pile of brass cuttings and had an idea (kinda hard to believe). I melted up a pot of 50/50, COWW/soft lead. This was in a Lee 20 lb. pot. I cranked the dial to 10 and let it heat up. I then added 2 tablespoons of the brass trimmings and let them heat up. I worked them into the sides of the pot for about 15 minutes then fluxed the alloy several times. There were a few small flakes of brass still visible but I couldn't get the last to alloy into the melt. I cleaned the dross off the top of the pot wich appeared to be what usually cleans out of smelted WW. I then cast up some bullets with the alloy. After sitting for about 6 hours these bullets are HARD. I think I accomplished nearly the same as adding just the copper into the alloy. I know I added a small amount of zinc but the amount should have been minimal. Copper + Zinc = Brass.

Nighthunter


Interesting:

According to wiki. Cartridge brass is 30% zinc.

[Box13]

This is highly interesting to me as I have about 40 lbs of an unknown babbit and Ive been using it to harden pure lead to simulate ww.Ive only used it in a 44 mag but it looks like I can get pretty good speeds without any leading from a mix of 90% pure and 10% of this babbit....Robin

[357maximum]

Trying to stay on topic ... so ..... During the last week or so I trimmed and deburred about 3500 .223 cases. Today I was looking at the pile of brass cuttings and had an idea (kinda hard to believe). I melted up a pot of 50/50, COWW/soft lead. This was in a Lee 20 lb. pot. I cranked the dial to 10 and let it heat up. I then added 2 tablespoons of the brass trimmings and let them heat up. I worked them into the sides of the pot for about 15 minutes then fluxed the alloy several times. There were a few small flakes of brass still visible but I couldn't get the last to alloy into the melt. I cleaned the dross off the top of the pot wich appeared to be what usually cleans out of smelted WW. I then cast up some bullets with the alloy. After sitting for about 6 hours these bullets are HARD. I think I accomplished nearly the same as adding just the copper into the alloy. I know I added a small amount of zinc but the amount should have been minimal. Copper + Zinc = Brass.

Nighthunter

You have my attention and I would like to know more. I actually thought about doing similar, but I lacked the stones to try it and intentionally add zinc to my melt. I have successfully cast with alloys that have had miniscule amounts of zinc, but I did not put it there on purpose.

Did you have good fillout and how did the sprue area act as it cooled?

I would like to see how one of these boolits behaves when sat on an anvil and hit with a heavy hammer.If you happen to hit the boolit a bit off center it would really tell us alot about it's integrity/mallability/toughness.


There may be a way to add the brass/smelt and then incorporate poppers copper sulfate method to suck the zinc back out and add more copper in the process to give us a richer enhancement alloy...just spitballing here.

[madsenshooter]

Had the 6x45 AR out a couple days ago, using the Cu containing, lead based babbitt I've been using for a few years now. Tried a couple loads. In one the powder was slow enough, managed a 1.5 tall x 1.25 wide 100yd group at around 2600fps. With a slightly faster powder things went awry and it was difficult to keep the bullets on an 8.5x11 target. I'd guesstimate that load was going close to 2700fps. I'm thinking the AR is going to be sold so I can buy a bolt gun with a slower twist and some tools I need.

[357maximum]

No time like the present to sell anything AR. The mall ninjas and tacticool crowd have plumb lost their minds. I wish I had a couple dozen to sell.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Today I was looking at the pile of brass cuttings and had an idea (kinda hard to believe).
Nighthunter

I kinda did this by accident a while back. I had some tin inogts I wanted into smaller pieces. I used a 44 mag mold for an ingot mold.
Need a small ladle. Hmm, I made a slick, small ladle out of a piece of 44 brass. When I stirred the pot, the ladle disappeared! OOPS

[Jailer]

No time like the present to sell anything AR. The mall ninjas and tacticool crowd have plumb lost their minds. I wish I had a couple dozen to sell.

With prices where they are right now I'm sitting on a small retirement fund. :D

[madsenshooter]

Wonder if the mall ninjas have every heard the word Obermeyer? If so, more money for me! .223 upper with a DEZ heavy fluted barrel is going along.

[303Guy]

......thus far tonight we have learned that Wd'ed 50/50 = good and that adding a bit of tin and copper to the fray make it Mo' Betta........am I keeping up with the curve? :lol:I have a problem with that - I can't get ahold of any WW! So what can I do to get the desired alloy? Mmm... well I suppose I betta go find a fishing sinker caster and trade ordinary lead scrap for his WW's. Heck, I'll even smelt the stuff into usable ingots for him.

Would someone please point me to the post with the base alloy make-up? Or just repost it? Thanks.

[I'll Make Mine]

303guy, you could just get some ingots of antimonial lead and tin solder (plumbing solder is generally tin or tin with a little antimony these days) to make your own wheel weight (ish) alloy -- as I recall, the average composition is about 3% to 3.5% antimony, and 0.5% tin, remainder lead. Hard antimonial lead is (again, from memory, so worth double checking) 6% antimony or so, so half and half hard shot and pure lead, then add half a percent tin, should be very close to clip on wheel weights.

[Dutch4122]

Would someone please point me to the post with the base alloy make-up? Or just repost it? Thanks.

That would be posts #44 and #47 of this thread.


Hope this helps, :mrgreen:

[nighthunter]

OK ... I placed a couple of those brass enriched bullets on the anvil pad of my bench vise and smacked them with a 2 pound hammer. One I beat into a disc about 1 1/2 inches in diameter and the other just a couple good whacks. There was no splitting or cracking of the metal. I would surmise that this indicates a good mallebility. Casting with this alloy was not much different than other alloys except needing a little more heat. The sprue was a little harder to cut but it did cut with no tearing of the base of the bullet. I know the proof will be in the shooting but everything seems good to go to this point.

Nighthunter

[357maximum]

NH

That sounds about like what is happening with the babbit+copper+50/50. Obviously there is several ways to skin the cat on this one. As long as the finished boolit does not act brittle like linotype and there are no casting issues I am sure your method is on track too. I have a 3lb coffee can full of shavings that used to be the difference in length between 8X57 and 30/06 brass that is just waiting for me to have a few moments to try.


Getting a touch of copper in the melt is the key and from what I am seeing great overdoses of copper are not needed....not even sure if it would be desired at this point. I know Edd's copperized babbit enhancement method works and it looks like there are at least 2 to 3 other ways to do it. I am sure as more people play with the idea even more "methods" will be found. Whatever is discovered or rediscovered will add to the sum total of our knowledge and that is great in my book. This forum and unselfish open minds are ushering in the Golden Age of Castboolits...............................YEEEEHAW .

[badgeredd]

NH

That sounds about like what is happening with the babbit+copper+50/50. Obviously there is several ways to skin the cat on this one. As long as the finished boolit does not act brittle like linotype and there are no casting issues I am sure your method is on track too. I have a 3lb coffee can full of shavings that used to be the difference in length between 8X57 and 30/06 brass that is just waiting for me to have a few moments to try.


Getting a touch of copper in the melt is the key and from what I am seeing great overdoses of copper are not needed....not even sure if it would be desired at this point. I know Edd's copperized babbit enhancement method works and it looks like there are at least 2 to 3 other ways to do it. I am sure as more people play with the idea even more "methods" will be found. Whatever is discovered or rediscovered will add to the sum total of our knowledge and that is great in my book. This forum and unselfish open minds are ushering in the Golden Age of Castboolits...............................YEEEEHAW .

What he said!!!!!!

Although the hammer/anvil test if far from scientific...it does let you see the difference in COWW alloy and the enhanced alloy. It is pretty startling to see the difference in the way each reacts to the hammer blow. Linotype comparison is even more revealing about malleability of the alloys. The terminal performance of a boolit is definitely going to be dependant on the malleabity or plactic deformation of the lead alloy, at least that is my opinion.

Edd

[madsenshooter]

In the piddling I've done, it appears if there's too much Sb in the mix one gets divets on the base of the bullet.

[303Guy]

Getting a touch of copper in the melt is the key and from what I am seeing great overdoses of copper are not needed....not even sure if it would be desired at this point. I know Edd's copperized babbit enhancement method works and it looks like there are at least 2 to 3 other ways to do it. I am sure as more people play with the idea even more "methods" will be found. Whatever is discovered or rediscovered will add to the sum total of our knowledge and that is great in my book. This forum and unselfish open minds are ushering in the Golden Age of Castboolits...............................YEEEEHAW .Absolutely! :2_high5:

These copper enriched threads have gotten my interest up and I've been trying some out. I did the hammering into a disc test and boy, do they get hot! But no edge splitting. And strong - I cannot bend them. Yet when first cast they bent easily with the fingers. Those ones had ducks behind like sprue pluckings. I finally found some clip on WW (what a mission to separate just a few) and chucked some in the pot then added more drain pipe until the ducks backside sprue went away. No change in hardness and I haven't hammered one of those yet.

I did notice that the castings come out almost at mold size which means that they come out with difficulty since I'm using solid molds. I've also realized that lead and its alloys is a lot more complex than I had realized! Just the way alloys freeze in the mold for instance. Some freeze in a way that makes the nose softer than the base and some in a way that causes the mid-section to collapse! And leave the nose harder than the base - for a few days.:confused:

[nighthunter]

Had a little range time today with the .223 and the Cu enriched alloy. Loaded 10 rounds each of 63 grain .225 and 55 grain .225 bullets with 24.0 grains of 4895. This was just a starting point for a load. I figure velocity was 2750 to 2850 fps. Both bullets had the same point of impact at 50 yards and 19 shots went into a 1 1/4 inch group. The first shot was a flyer about 1 1/2 inch above the group. There was zero leading in my barrel after the 20 rounds. When the weather improves I will refine the load for accuracy and increase the range. Today was more a function test of the alloy to see if I could get the velocity without the leading. To me it was a total success especially considering that a 22 caliber centerfire was used. I was somewhat surprised with the accuracy with it being a jumping in point with the powder charge.

Nighthunter

[badgeredd]

Had a little range time today with the .223 and the Cu enriched alloy. Loaded 10 rounds each of 63 grain .225 and 55 grain .225 bullets with 24.0 grains of 4895. This was just a starting point for a load. I figure velocity was 2750 to 2850 fps. Both bullets had the same point of impact at 50 yards and 19 shots went into a 1 1/4 inch group. The first shot was a flyer about 1 1/2 inch above the group. There was zero leading in my barrel after the 20 rounds. When the weather improves I will refine the load for accuracy and increase the range. Today was more a function test of the alloy to see if I could get the velocity without the leading. To me it was a total success especially considering that a 22 caliber centerfire was used. I was somewhat surprised with the accuracy with it being a jumping in point with the powder charge.

Nighthunter

You're experiencing what we've been working for from the start. Pretty cool isn't it? The accuracy with relative high load pressure was the reason we started experimenting seriously with the copper enriched alloys.

Edd

[Slide1285]

Hi guys! New member hear all because I found this thread. I know this thread has been cold for a while now but has there been any new development on experiments you guys are running? Here is my situation....

I find myself with an unlimited supply of range scrap, most still in the copper jacket. I have been looking into ways to make this a useable alloy with minimal purchased material. Suggestions?

-Slide

[62chevy]

Hi guys! New member hear all because I found this thread. I know this thread has been cold for a while now but has there been any new development on experiments you guys are running? Here is my situation....

I find myself with an unlimited supply of range scrap, most still in the copper jacket. I have been looking into ways to make this a useable alloy with minimal purchased material. Suggestions?

-Slide

Use the forum search on the top right and enter the phrase " range scrap " and " turkey fryer ". Anyways you will need a turkey fryer or better to melt tons of range scrap. Best advice is to keep the temp between 650 and 750 for best results, in this case lower is better.

[archangel2003]

What a disappointment to find the most recent postings about copper in the lead is 4 -1/2 years old!
I wonder if this will even post, or if the original posters are still around.
I have been collecting supplies for casting bullets for a while now and have as much Pewter as I do lead, and the fact that the last item on my list, the Lee 4-20 just showed up, I just about ready to start casting slugs, buckshot and bullets.
I had all the various lead and pewter samples I melted tested for content and found that because metals with higher melting temperatures can dissolve into lower melting metals to make some of the low melt alloys, I was finding copper, titanium, Iron and a few other metals I can't remember right now in my lead and pewter.
Has anyone tried just getting the lead real hot and stirring it with a copper pipe for a while to see if it dissolves?
Copper pipe with solder should add in some tin to the mix as well.

[Traffer]

Thanks for resurrecting the thread. I am also curious to see where the state of this development is at. Why does no one talk about it anymore? I had followed it long enough to know that this is no simple situation. The metallurgy and science of how these metals alloy and bond is not as simple as getting things hot enough to melt into each other. Perhaps it got to be to involved for a home shop. maybe some people who have worked in the industry could try to explain it to us laymen.

[popper]

I use 1/4 to 1/2 % Cu with all my alloy now. I go lower in Sb for pistol but stick with good WW Sb for HV rifle. Did 3 shots from 308W AR carbine, 165gr FP 2400 fps @ 200, got right at MOA. Use the same for PB in 300BO @ 2100 fps, same MOA. 50/50 with Cu seems to work well in 30/30 and BO pistol (185gr) pushed hard. Got a texas heart shot on a pig (120#?) that went tail to choppers without a problem, broke front leg & jaw. Did an alloy with just Pb, Cu & Zn for 40SW, accurate ( 165gr @~ 950 fps) but some keyholeing as I forgot it sizes smaller. Great expansion, lube groove not showing on the sideways ones. I use CuSO4 method that cleans the alloy great. Top of the pot looks mirror smooth. Convert, skim, put some beeswax on top to get the really tiny stuff. Keep the Sb greater than the Cu. Kinda like PC, once you get it, not much to tell.

[Castloader]

This thread keeps intriguing me. Has anyone figured out a straightforward way to make copper enriched alloys? If so please post. Copper is a lot easier to find than antimony or tin right now, I'd love to make some of this alloy, but reading through this thread, there doesn't seem to be anything approaching straightforward instructions that are repeatable. If anyone has insight, please post.

[archangel2003]

This thread keeps intriguing me. Has anyone figured out a straightforward way to make copper enriched alloys? If so please post. Copper is a lot easier to find than antimony or tin right now, I'd love to make some of this alloy, but reading through this thread, there doesn't seem to be anything approaching straightforward instructions that are repeatable. If anyone has insight, please post.

Well, just like Stainless Steel (2,550° to 2,790°) dissolving in melted Zinc (787.2°), (see the video Elvis Ammo did on casting Zinc bullets in a Lee Stainless Steel melting pot) if you get a piece of copper pipe and use it as a stir stick to stir the pot of tin, a small amount will dissolve into the mix.

Not sure if pure lead will dissolve copper though.

I salvage tin solder off copper pipe and when I have it tested, (scrap yards have a gun that tests metals) it they always have various amounts of copper in them, and when I add the tin to the lead, it's added because it's along for the ride in the tin.

It drives me nuts when people say salt (Melts @1474°) and sugar ( Melts @367°) melts in water, when they both have a much higher melting temp than boiling water.
The do not melt, they dissolve!:roll:

https://www.mcfeelys.com/galvanic_corrosion

Red = Most Problematic
Yellow = Problematic
White = Safe

The use of stainless steel and zinc or galvanized steel merits a red score. This combination must be avoided.

[mnewcomb59]

I have some foundry type that has about 2% copper. I have found that copper above about 0.2% makes for a terrible time with the Lee dripomatic. It seems like it plugs up constantly at any sane casting temperature that doesn't overheat the mold within a few pours. I keep a spool of thick wire that fits the bottom pour spout and dunk the wire in lead, touch it to a candle for wax, then ream the hole and then I might get 5 or 10 pours. Drop the copper down to about 0.15% and it casts fine.

I have noticed with 2-2-96 with 0.15% copper that HP mushrooms seem to work harden. Bullets that are right at the edge of finger nail scratchable before firing (the previously mentioned alloy water dropped from a 420 degree heat treat) have recovered bullets that can't be scratched on the mushroom but they can be scratched on the driving band.

The copper alloy mushrooms and the mushrooms tend to poke out at a 90 degree angle from the shank making a 65 caliber flat nose, while non copper mushrooms from the same alloy will roll the edges of the mushroom and give a profile like a 65 cal round ball. The copper bullets tend to penetrate slightly less. I have seen this effect on 1-1-98 with 0.15% copper also. Usually the copper alloy has a wider mushroom.

The work hardening seems to kick in when a bullet is skidding on the rifling also. Most bullet/load combos that shoot good but are at the upper limits of the alloy will skid some on the first driving band, then less on the middle, and none on the base band. Bump up the load another 0.5 grains and now it is skidding on the base band as well and the accuracy goes to crap and lead is deposited in the corners of the lands and grooves. With equal alloys except 0.15% copper, when the bullet is loaded just past the point where the first driving band starts to skid the copper bullets skid less. They both skid but the copper bullet might have an enlarged rifling groove on the bullet by 10% and the non copper skids more and the mark from the land is almost 50% wider.

[justindad]

<snip>

I have noticed with 2-2-96 with 0.15% copper that HP mushrooms seem to work harden. Bullets that are right at the edge of finger nail scratchable before firing (the previously mentioned alloy water dropped from a 420 degree heat treat) have recovered bullets that can't be scratched on the mushroom but they can be scratched on the driving band.

How long do you heat at 420? Do you bake in air or heat in oil?