3 inch .44 mag. velocity?

[bassnbuck]

Was thinking of a 629 with a 3 inch barrel. Anyone ever check velocity compared to a 5" barrel? Also I have always used 2400 with my 7 1/2 inch super blackhawk, would a faster burning powder work in the 3 inch? Any suggestions?

[44man]

Just too short. Poor velocity, more muzzle blast and sights that move POI too much.
You need faster powders but what do you gain over a .44 special?
It sounds like a guy that wants a .500 S&W in a 3" barrel.
Would you buy a .300 Weatherby in a 10" barrel or a .460?
Revolver shooters are crazy. Rifle shooters know a certain length is needed but a revolver shooter thinks different and 2" is fine with a .460.
Yes, even the .44 needs some length.

[kbstenberg]

Bassnbuck if you are looking for self defence weapon. I agree with a 3" barrel

[44man]

Bassnbuck if you are looking for self defence weapon. I agree with a 3" barrel
Why? Is it better then a .45 or .44 special or god forbid, the .38 S&W? Maybe a .25 auto?
OOOOOPS muzzle bast and recoil! Scary as hell.

[44MAG#1]

Data shot by me with a S&W 3 inch M29 that belongs to my buddy.
44 Special load.
250 gr H&G 503G Keith
15.0 gr 2400
Fed 150
960 FPS

44 Mag load

H&G 503g Keith 250 gr.
21.0 gr 2400
Fed 150
1216 fps

That was actually chronoed and that is what the gun got with those two loads.
Now if you want to call that low velocity in THAT barrel lenght that is fine.
Just like my car is slow compared to a funny car. But you know what, my car will still get me there.
And I bet that 250 gr bullet just might make it through a deer broadside if one holds their mouth right when they squeeze the trigger.
Provided the planets are aligned too.:):)

[Catshooter]

Yes, despite what 44man is telling you, (and maybe unlikehim) I too have actually chronographed 22 grains of 2400 from a three inch 29. 1250 fps with the 255 grain Keith boolit.

Yea, pretty weak, hardly more than a 44 Special . . . oh sure.

Welcome to the forum bassnbuck. You will soon learn who to listen to and who to ignore here. Many here are very, very sharp and well informed.


Cat

[snowwolfe]

Just too short. Poor velocity, more muzzle blast and sights that move POI too much.
You need faster powders but what do you gain over a .44 special?
It sounds like a guy that wants a .500 S&W in a 3" barrel.
Would you buy a .300 Weatherby in a 10" barrel or a .460?
Revolver shooters are crazy. Rifle shooters know a certain length is needed but a revolver shooter thinks different and 2" is fine with a .460.
Yes, even the .44 needs some length.

Please post your data where you chroned loads from a 3 inch barreled 44 mag to prove your point.

Bassnbuck, 2400, 296, H110, 4227, etc should work well with you. Although I never owned a 3in 44 mag have owned a couple of 4 inch models. It is not difficult to hit 1,250 - 1,275 fps with a 240 grain bullet.
The more experience I get with short barreled revolvers the more impressed I am with the loss of velocity compared to longer barrels. Chronographs are wonderful tools and put many an internet rumor in it's place. Just purchased a Lipseys Ruger 44 with a 3 3/4 inch barrel and hope to get some range time with it soon. Be a good companion to my 4 in S&W 500:)

[white eagle]

good god hate to think what is happening with my 2.5" S&W Backpacker

[bassnbuck]

Thanks for all the replys. Here is how I arrived at asking this ? I have owned and shot the sbh since early 70's I Recently bought a bfr .475 nightmare[ now have that straightened out with new barrel] I thought about a .357 snuby and then thought why not .44 mag that I've cast &reloaded for 40 odd years? I knew it will have more muzzle blast than a longer barrel, just wanted to know approx loss of vel. I was more interested in a carry gun. The longer barrel guns are for shooting, hunting.

[jmort]

Ballistics by the inch can be useful. A 240 grain Federal Hydra-Shok HP goes 1227 fps in a 629 5" and 1120 fps in a 629 3". Not much difference really.
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/44mag.html

[canyon-ghost]

Revolver shooters are crazy- 44man

That oughta go down in history, lol.

Supersonic starts somewhere close to 1000 fps, if it gets there, it's a magnum.

[Gibson]

Ballistics by the inch can be useful. A 240 grain Federal Hydra-Shok HP goes 1227 fps in a 629 5" and 1120 fps in a 629 3". Not much difference really.
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/44mag.html

That sounds about right, from my experience.

See my sig, mortimer ;)

[44man]

But I am a hunter so forgive me. The short sight radius bothers me. Also the need for a faster powder.
I agree you do not lose a lot but 50 fps loss can get you out of twist match.
I WOULD carry short but my guns are primary for hunting. I tend to confuse a carry gun compared to hunting.
I have to concede some of you are right. You understand a .500 S&W in a 3" barrel does not click.

[44MAG#1]

Then how does a 1-20 twist rate work in a 44 Special if it won't work in a 44 Mag at a higher velocity?
Funny isn't it.
Do we need to throw our 44 Specials away since there is no way a 1-20 will work at 800 to 1000 fps if it won't work in a 44 Mag at a higher velocity?

[shorty500M]

Then how does a 1-20 twist rate work in a 44 Special if it won't work in a 44 Mag at a higher velocity?
Funny isn't it.
Do we need to throw our 44 Specials away since there is no way a 1-20 will work at 800 to 1000 fps if it won't work in a 44 Mag at a higher velocity?

lol it seems that many many things on this site dont work accordding to ONE particular poster. Evidently he knows ALL and we others are trapped in a dream where Keith bullets still shoot accurately and kill, magnum primers still work in cartridges as suggested by the original designers notes and short barrels are still accurate. Or maybe the ONE is stuck in his dream of superior knownledge

[OuchHot!]

I can only speak directly to 6" Vs 3" in a 41mag. The same load (near max) of H110 and 210g J type lost right at 100fps. The problem I saw with 3" bbl is that the front sight is too short for heavy cast boolit loads. I would expect a similar problem for the 44mag. I had to look a bit to find a N frame 3" holster. If I were to do it over, I would do a 4" just for the sight radius and the ability to sight in heavy cast loads. I didn't find a 3" carried that much easier than a 4". ymmv

[bigboredad]

lol it seems that many many things on this site dont work accordding to ONE particular poster. Evidently he knows ALL and we others are trapped in a dream where Keith bullets still shoot accurately and kill, magnum primers still work in cartridges as suggested by the original designers notes and short barrels are still accurate. Or maybe the ONE is stuck in his dream of superior knownledge

That's a big +1. It gets really really old

[44man]

Then how does a 1-20 twist rate work in a 44 Special if it won't work in a 44 Mag at a higher velocity?
Funny isn't it.
Do we need to throw our 44 Specials away since there is no way a 1-20 will work at 800 to 1000 fps if it won't work in a 44 Mag at a higher velocity?
It does work because most .44 special boolits are lighter. Not many shoot 310 to 330 gr boolits from a special.
When you go heavier you need to shoot faster with the same twist. That does not mean max velocity either, just where a boolit is stable and even though you can't get a heavy boolit to the velocity that you can a lighter one, there is still a best point.
Something never addressed is barrel length and twist rates. ! in 20 makes a turn in 20" but how much turn is imparted from a 3" barrel? Can anyone measure spin rates? Do you not have less turn versus time in a short barrel?
Will a 2" or 3" barrel impart the same spin as a 6" or 10" barrel at the same velocity?
I would love someone to prove a 2" barrel will reach the same rpm's as a long barrel. No paper figures please.
Look in a 1" barrel and see that the twist is almost straight. One twentieth of a turn with a 1 in 20".
You get 43,200 RPM's with a 1 in 20" at 1200 fps. Will you please tell me what you get with a 3" barrel? 1"?
Yes I get static, it is OK. Please give me actual RPM readings. Sorry, I am too stupid to measure that.

[44MAG#1]

"It does work because most .44 special boolits are lighter. Not many shoot 310 to 330 gr boolits from a special. "

In this post/thread the OP never mentioned bullet weight.

"I would love someone to prove a 2" barrel will reach the same rpm's as a long barrel. No paper figures please."
you just gave a calculated/paper example of twist at 1-12 at 1200 fps is 43.200 rpm
If that is true what would a 10 inch barrel give at 1400fps. 50,400 or am I not allowed to use a calculator?
If a 2 inch will give 900 what will it give at a pitch/twist rate of 1-20? 32,400 rpm or am I not allowed to use a calculator?
The pitch of the rifling is in the carbide button that is how the twist rate is determined. The angle of the groove in the button is for 1-10 it would be hard to rifle at 1-20 in abutton rifled barrel. Now a cut rifled barrel it may be a different story.
A 1-20- is a 1-20 twist.

"Yes I get static, it is OK. Please give me actual RPM readings. Sorry, I am too stupid to measure that."

we have to take what the manufacturer says the twist rate is. Just like you do when one looks at the spec. sheet of a gun.
No different. You used your example at 1200 fps based on the velocity of the magic 6 inch barrel. I have the same right.
Did you measure the EXACT twist in that 6 inch barrel and did you measure the EXACT average velocity of that barrel to come up with those figures?
If not how did you detemine that the twist rate is 1-20? Did you use a special instrument to measure the twist or did you use the magical factory specs on that 6 inch barrel?
Now tell me again how a 44 Special can shoot so well at a 1-20 twist at 800 to 1000 with a250 and a 44 mag will fall flat at 1100 to 1200 fps in the same twist.
Since twist rate pitch can magically change depending on barrel lenght how do YOU know that 6 inch barrel is 1-20? It may be a 1-191/2 or 1-201/2 . If it has your figures will then wrong based on that velocity of 1200 fps.
What about a 10 inch barrel does the twist pitch change in it because it is a 10 inch verses a 6 inch?
Since the twist rate can change from barrel length to barrel lenght can it change among barrels the same length when they are producing barrels of the same length? If not why. Maybe the yeahoo that is rifling the barrels is conspiring to confuse and confound us shooters to cause dissention and turmoil amongst us so we will by more guns in looking for the elusive 1-20 twist.
Please explain it to me as i don't have the mental capacity to fathom all this.
Another thing if someone like john Linebaugh buys barrel blanks of 30 inches that are .452 caliber with a 1-16 twist and he uses that blank to make a 71/2 inch barrel a 6 inch barrel a 5 inch barrel and a 4.75 in. barrel does the twist rate change due to the different lengths when the same 30 inch rifled blank is used that was rifled 1-16?

I'm not really arguing the point as i now see after all this time that I must be the dumbest or stupidiest person living about guns, ballistics, shooting and whether mass can be weighed or not that has ever lived.

So please help me out.

[bobthenailer]

I also have a 3" 629 , i narrowed the front sight about 0.20 to get some light to show up in the sides of the rear sight for better target aqustion , and it worked but i ended up installing a Trijucon minature red dot sight on it and it is now alot easyer for me to shoot accuratly at my normal shooting distances of 25 to 100 yards
At 65 i have red dot sights on most of my handguns as well as a few rifles and it is a God send for this shooter's ageing eyes . i dont think i would enjoy shooting as much if i did not have red dot sights.

[44man]

Nobody is stupid if there is proof. You and me both can not prove it. Nobody on earth can measure RPM's from different barrel lengths.
What you don't see is even though pitch rate does not change with a short barrel, the boolit is not in contact long enough, it is time. Once clear of the bore, no twist is added. Does a boolit from a 1" barrel have one twentieth of the spin needed?
Take the barrel short enough so there is almost a straight twist, is it still 1 in 20"? Darn right with a 20" barrel but you have no twist at all with the tiny barrel.
Can you prove the RPM's are the same?
If the barrel is 1/2" long with a 1 in 20" twist, will it reach 43,200 RPM's? At just what barrel length will a boolit reach 43,200 RPM's? Could it be 20"?
Oh my, please sit down and think.

[44MAG#1]

"Nobody is stupid if there is proof. You and me both can not prove it. Nobody on earth can measure RPM's from different barrel lengths."
The only way we have is the manufacturers specs. Take it or leave it. That goes for You and ME both.

"What you don't see is even though pitch rate does not change with a short barrel, the boolit is not in contact long enough, it is time"
everything ballistic is time. Distance over TIME equal velocity. Drop is TIME spent in gravity. Momentum is distance over TIME equals speed in fps multiplied by weight in pounds. Revolutions of a bullet in flight is actually time based. Distance over TIME equals velocity in fps. Fps multiplied by 12 divided by twist rate equals RPS multiplied by 60 the amount of seconds in the TIME span of a minute equals RPM.

"Take the barrel short enough so there is almost a straight twist, is it still 1 in 20"? Darn right with a 20" barrel but you have no twist at all with the tiny barrel."

It is the PITCH or ANGLE of the grooves that determine the twist rate.
Straight grooves have NO angle. So no twist. Are you saying they rifle a 3 inch barrel with a button with a different PITCH or ANGLE of rifling than a longer barrel?
Go back to my previous post about John Linebaugh using a 30 inch rifled blank to make a 7.5 inch barrel, 6 inch barrel, a 5 inch barrel and a 4.75 inch barrel all from the same blank. Does the rifling PITCH or ANGLE change be cause of the different barrel lengths or is it a constant due to it being the same blank?

"Can you prove the RPM's are the same?"

I can't prove you exist. I cannot see you, I cannot touch you, i cannot smell you so without concrete proof of actually seeing you how do i know that you aren't Obama on here trying to stir up stuff over something to cause discord among shooters to show how goofy they are to use that as a method of furthering gun control.
How do i know that you aren't Elvis Presley jerking us all around. Even if i called you you could be some computer generate Bot that answers the phone.

"If the barrel is 1/2" long with a 1 in 20" twist, will it reach 43,200 RPM's? At just what barrel length will a boolit reach 43,200 RPM's? Could it be 20"? "

I doubt that due to a velocity (remember distance over TIME) not giving the required 1200 fps in a 1/2 inch barrel
But we aren't a drowing man grasping at straws either as we know we were talking about a 3 INCH barrel not YOUR 1/2 inch barrel. An i know my buddys 3 in M29 gave slightly over 1200 fps to give slighty more than your 43200 rpms. BASED on factory specs on the rifling twist rate.
Again YOU CANNOT prove it doesn't have EXACTLY 1-20 no more than I can prove it has.
So we are at deadlock.
It is what it is. Hung jury. Down the toilet. etc. whatever you want to call it
Now what else do you want to discuss?

[44man]

Nothing except you use factory specs.
You understand time. Yet you, me or nobody else can give RPM's for barrel length.

[44MAG#1]

"Nothing except you use factory specs."
You got anything better?

"You understand time. Yet you, me or nobody else can give RPM's for barrel length."
One can if one will go by published specs. That is all we have. Unless you come up with anything better that is all we have and i would say you are lacking in that.
You still have dodged my example of John Linebaugh and the 30 inch barrel blank.
Does the twist rate stay constant in the different barrel lengths from the same blank or does it change in PITCH or ANGLE of the rifling lands depending on the length he cuts it?
Can you answer that question? does the PITCH or ANGLE of the rifling change magically as he cuts the barrels from the same blank?
That is either a yes or a no. Remember the barrel is rifled with the same button completely from one end to another .

[bigboredad]

If I find it quite humorous to watch someone try to continue to spread internet myth then get soundly proven wrong they then try to twist things around and say nothing but bs and can never admit that they were wrong they can never man up instead some people have to keep spinning trying to get the last word and the time saying nothing to add to the topic or to help the op. Some people amaze me.

Yes revolver shooters are crazy that's as dumb as saying old people are so close minded to learn

[44MAG#1]

bigboredad:
I guess that was meant for me. sometimes i get agitated at things.
If it will make you feel better I will bow out and turn it over to 44man. No doubt he knows he knows and we know he knows and we know he will always win and we know from longstanding experience he knows.
So rather than to get anyone else agitated i will admit defeat and slink away and let the swift white charger with the white knight continue to roam this thread.

[bigboredad]

Nope not at all you seem to know what you are talking about instead of just trying to act like you are Mr. Handgun

[Gibson]

bigboredad:
I guess that was meant for me. sometimes i get agitated at things.
If it will make you feel better I will bow out and turn it over to 44man. No doubt he knows he knows and we know he knows and we know he will always win and we know from longstanding experience he knows.
So rather than to get anyone else agitated i will admit defeat and slink away and let the swift white charger with the white knight continue to roam this thread.

Interesting deduction.

bbd is directing his post at JIM

[bigboredad]

Are trying to get personal or just making a ASSumption

[Gibson]

Are trying to get personal or just making a ASSumption

Not worth arguing about.

I apologize.

[bigboredad]

Nice try

[44man]

No need to argue at all so please forgive if I sound that way.
It is because I don't know the facts. I question things all the time, good points are made but I still question things.
Spin rates of a boolit are only figures derived from twist rate and velocity, barrel length can't be figured in so I question it.
Short barrels and my thinking have nothing to do with power, only efficient use of a case size and accuracy.
Take something as simple as a 30-30 in your rifle. You can use about any powder but what if you shorten to 10"? You will sure find the powder choices will drop to 1 or 2, maybe 3. What works in your rifle will fail to burn in 10". I would not expect anyone to try a 3" barrel in the 30-30.
Leave powder choice out for a second and think of the boolit size that will stabilize in a very short barrel, can the boolit spin enough? I will forever question that.
Sure a 1" barrel with a 1 in 20" rate is still 1 in 20" but does the angle of the dangle impart full spin?
Why do all BFR revolvers have faster twist rates then any gun made? Your standard 45-70 rifle will have 1 in 20" and a BPCR will be 1 in 18" but the BFR is 1 in 14". Seems ideal for a 10" barrel. There is still a powder choice to be found as slow rifle powders don't work.
Go to the BFR .454, it is 1 in 16", not the 1 in 24" that is standard.
Do short barrels need a faster twist?
Book figures have hardly ever worked in revolvers and even single shot pistols.
I do not own a short gun so someone else has to test an idea I have. Take your 3" .44 mag, mount a good scope and use any rest. Can you get at least 1-1/4" groups at 100 yards? Now take a 320 gr WFN and tell me what you get at 50 yards. I am not being confrontational at all, just prove what you read. Information goes a long way if you actually do things.
Twist rates are a thorn and is forgotten 100% with revolvers. Powder capacity is also forgotten.
Does a 320 gr work out of the .44 at 800 fps? I just wonder if it is slow spin and a very fast twist could make it work. Do short barrels turn into a smooth bore?
The .460 S&W is a gain twist, what if you send the gun to have the barrel shortened?

[44man]

I have sent my question to a gun maker, hope to get an answer.

[44MAG#1]

I will say this. Then that is it for me.
It is a persons money, it is a persons desire, It is what a person wants. It is not YOUR money or MY money.
Anyone can have what they want it does not matter if it is dumb, stupid, intellegent or worthwhile, cheap or expensive as long as they can afford it.
My buddy wanted a 3 inch M29 he could afford it and he got it. Just like the OP of this thread either will or will not get one.
I can outshoot my buddy using his 3 inch and him using an eight and three eights. Both being his guns.
Who cares?
Most of this stuff is about fun anyway. It is neither YOUR place or my PLACE to rain on someones parade.
If someone wants a flame thrower are you buying it or me?
He never even mentioned ACCURACY. He may not be able to hit a bull in the behind with any barrel length or he may be a expert shot wih anything he shoots.
Then we got into the twist rate, the magiacally ever changing twist rate, the heavy bullet route when he never stated anything about bullet weight, your spin on your ideas verses why he shouldn't buy a 3 inch when it isn't even your money or mine.
If you or I don't want a short barrel then we DON'T have to buy one. Why? Because it is OUR money not his. Just like he will buy with HIS money what he wants.
He actually asked about velocity loss not twist rate not extra heavy bullets (for all we know he may have inteded to use a 180 gr).
I gave some actual chrono figures fired from a 3 inch M29 with a 250 Keith. NOT a 320 because I would make a good bet he wasn't going to use a bullet that heavy to begin with.
BTW my 4 inch will run 1240 to 1270 or there abouts with the same charge weight depending on lots of powder and a 250 Keith (and this is not a discussion on whether the Keith is any good or not)
Now with the reality part:
Who cares about OUR ideas?

[44man]

I will say this. Then that is it for me.
It is a persons money, it is a persons desire, It is what a person wants. It is not YOUR money or MY money.
Anyone can have what they want it does not matter if it is dumb, stupid, intellegent or worthwhile, cheap or expensive as long as they can afford it.
My buddy wanted a 3 inch M29 he could afford it and he got it. Just like the OP of this thread either will or will not get one.
I can outshoot my buddy using his 3 inch and him using an eight and three eights. Both being his guns.
Who cares?
Most of this stuff is about fun anyway. It is neither YOUR place or my PLACE to rain on someones parade.
If someone wants a flame thrower are you buying it or me?
He never even mentioned ACCURACY. He may not be able to hit a bull in the behind with any barrel length or he may be a expert shot wih anything he shoots.
Then we got into the twist rate, the magiacally ever changing twist rate, the heavy bullet route when he never stated anything about bullet weight, your spin on your ideas verses why he shouldn't buy a 3 inch when it isn't even your money or mine.
If you or I don't want a short barrel then we DON'T have to buy one. Why? Because it is OUR money not his. Just like he will buy with HIS money what he wants.
He actually asked about velocity loss not twist rate not extra heavy bullets (for all we know he may have inteded to use a 180 gr).
I gave some actual chrono figures fired from a 3 inch M29 with a 250 Keith. NOT a 320 because I would make a good bet he wasn't going to use a bullet that heavy to begin with.
BTW my 4 inch will run 1240 to 1270 or there abouts with the same charge weight depending on lots of powder and a 250 Keith (and this is not a discussion on whether the Keith is any good or not)
Now with the reality part:
Who cares about OUR ideas?
I am going to agree with you my friend. What you said was very well put.
I tend to get technical and forget about fun and what a fella wants.

[rintinglen]

I am no fan of the 3 inch S&W 44 mag. If it has those pretty, wooden, combat grips, Its bite is as bad as its bark. I have a 4 inch Taurus Tracker that exceeds my definition of fun, it only rides my hip when hunting. While I won't say the short guns can't shoot, or are ballistically inferior (cause they WILL, and they ain't), repetitive impact injuries are no joke and the older you are, the less fun they become.
That said, as a launcher of 44 Special boolits, I would dearly love to find one for sale here in Commifornia at a decent price. What a neat toy!

[44man]

I am no fan of the 3 inch S&W 44 mag. If it has those pretty, wooden, combat grips, Its bite is as bad as its bark. I have a 4 inch Taurus Tracker that exceeds my definition of fun, it only rides my hip when hunting. While I won't say the short guns can't shoot, or are ballistically inferior (cause they WILL, and they ain't), repetitive impact injuries are no joke and the older you are, the less fun they become.
That said, as a launcher of 44 Special boolits, I would dearly love to find one for sale here in Commifornia at a decent price. What a neat toy!
It is also barrel rise with short guns. No control, not enough strength.
But when hunting I hate muffs and a longer barrel will not hurt my ears for one shot. Nothing I would do on the range but shooting a deer seems to have less noise.
Nobody considers the violent gun rise. I can hit little water bottles off hand with my .44, .475 and .500 JRH with a proper hold but can hit high on deer with the .475 from a tad lighter hold. I relax too much. A 3" .44 will let the gun climb like crazy. Just how do you tame it for the same rise?
I shot three shots from my 10-1/2 barrel .44 at 100 yards, off hand. Got this.
Show 3" barrel groups. You will never control rise and boolit exit. Pain will stop you too.
Yeah, 100 yards---why not? Is a .44 for 20 yards?

[cbrick]

While I won't say the short guns can't shoot, or are ballistically inferior (cause they WILL, and they ain't), repetitive impact injuries are no joke and the older you are, the less fun they become.

Now there is something I could not argue with. :mrgreen:

Aside from any differences in ballistics the short barrels with the same loads are more abusive to shoot and as rintinglen says, it doesn't take but adding a few years and they become less and less fun.

I can kinda see where 44man is coming from with the short barrels. He shot silhouette for many years and since has been a handgun hunter, in both pursuits the longer barrel is an advantage. I have shot revolver silhouette for so many years now that my 5.5 inch Smith 44 Spl looks like a snubbie to me. :mrgreen:

I also see the appeal of those that wish to shoot the snubbies, if that is what they enjoy bless their hearts, at least they are gun owners and out shooting them.

Rick

[bigboredad]

I will say this. Then that is it for me.
It is a persons money, it is a persons desire, It is what a person wants. It is not YOUR money or MY money.
Anyone can have what they want it does not matter if it is dumb, stupid, intellegent or worthwhile, cheap or expensive as long as they can afford it.
My buddy wanted a 3 inch M29 he could afford it and he got it. Just like the OP of this thread either will or will not get one.
I can outshoot my buddy using his 3 inch and him using an eight and three eights. Both being his guns.
Who cares?
Most of this stuff is about fun anyway. It is neither YOUR place or my PLACE to rain on someones parade.
If someone wants a flame thrower are you buying it or me?
He never even mentioned ACCURACY. He may not be able to hit a bull in the behind with any barrel length or he may be a expert shot wih anything he shoots.
Then we got into the twist rate, the magiacally ever changing twist rate, the heavy bullet route when he never stated anything about bullet weight, your spin on your ideas verses why he shouldn't buy a 3 inch when it isn't even your money or mine.
If you or I don't want a short barrel then we DON'T have to buy one. Why? Because it is OUR money not his. Just like he will buy with HIS money what he wants.
He actually asked about velocity loss not twist rate not extra heavy bullets (for all we know he may have inteded to use a 180 gr).
I gave some actual chrono figures fired from a 3 inch M29 with a 250 Keith. NOT a 320 because I would make a good bet he wasn't going to use a bullet that heavy to begin with.
BTW my 4 inch will run 1240 to 1270 or there abouts with the same charge weight depending on lots of powder and a 250 Keith (and this is not a discussion on whether the Keith is any good or not)
Now with the reality part:
Who cares about OUR ideas?
That is the most sensible well put post on this thread. Very nice thanks for bringing reality back into the picture

[44man]

Now there is something I could not argue with. :mrgreen:

Aside from any differences in ballistics the short barrels with the same loads are more abusive to shoot and as rintinglen says, it doesn't take but adding a few years and they become less and less fun.

I can kinda see where 44man is coming from with the short barrels. He shot silhouette for many years and since has been a handgun hunter, in both pursuits the longer barrel is an advantage. I have shot revolver silhouette for so many years now that my 5.5 inch Smith 44 Spl looks like a snubbie to me. :mrgreen:

I also see the appeal of those that wish to shoot the snubbies, if that is what they enjoy bless their hearts, at least they are gun owners and out shooting them.

Rick
YES, YES, it is coming around to the love. Thank you rick. Such a great way to say it.

[white eagle]

Was thinking of a 629 with a 3 inch barrel. Anyone ever check velocity compared to a 5" barrel? Also I have always used 2400 with my 7 1/2 inch super blackhawk, would a faster burning powder work in the 3 inch? Any suggestions?

Did anyone read this?
how in the world did you ever get twist rates out of this?

[44man]

Did anyone read this?
how in the world did you ever get twist rates out of this?
Hard to figure. Fast powder starts the boolit faster while slow powder can not be burned in short barrels. Does it have affect on twist? Does fast powder spin a boolit more? I suppose it can because the boolit starts fast.
Would you ever shoot a .300 Weatherby from a 3" barrel with a full load of 4831 and would you shoot a .500 S&W from a 3" barrel with a full load of 296?
Unique solves it so why the huge case? Is it pride for the large calibers?

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive got loads in a 3 inch 44 mag smith that will do 1300fps with a 250 cast using 110 and show absolutely no pressure signs. My 3.5 inch 44 mag ruger redhawk will push to 1400fps and probably would go faster if my hands could take it. I had one 4 5/8s ruger vaquero that would chrono the same load faster then any 7.5 inch 44 mag i ever owned.

As to accuracy, ive shot some of my best groups ever with 3 and 4 inch revolvers. There is one downside to them. It take good trigger control to shoot them well and it takes a good trigger. You dont want a 5lb trigger on a 3 inch gun. A beginner will usually do a bit better with a longer sight radius but Ive been shooting short barreled guns so long that on the bench i shoot them equaly well compared to a long barrel and off hand i actually do better with a short barreled gun. They ballance better in my hand. Probably do to the fact i shoot them much more then a long barreled gun.

As to powder selections ive chronoed enough 44 mag ammo in long and short guns to KNOW that the same powders that give top velocitys in long barrels do the same in a 3 inch gun. Were not talking 20 inch barrels here that allow slow buring powders to burn effeciently. A 300 mag comparison here has no validity whatsover and if were talking a 3inch 500 smith, its capable of more velocity then any load i can run in my 5.5 inch 500 linebaugh. Sure it takes more powder but when your talking guns that run well over a grand and in the case of a linebaugh 3 times that i doubt the owner is going to worry much about 10 more grains of powder he has to buy. ALL HANDGUNS have short barrels and even 110 is a fast burning powder that probably burns most of its powder in the first couple inches of barrel. Especially if your using the right primer (a mag primer) You might see a bit of a differnce in velocity using an incorrect primer (standard) and it could be why 44 man sees such a differnce in velocitys in his guns using a powder like 110. Bottom line is ive shot a truck load of deer, bear and pigs with the 44 mag. Ive done it using 3 inch guns and done it using guns with barrels as long as 8 3/8s and can honestly say ive NEVER seen the diffence in reaction to a an animal because i was using a longer barrel. If you can shoot them well the short barreled guns are just as effective on game and you can pack them in a hip holster instead of taking along a wheelbarrow.

Bottom line is ive shot enough game with relovers of all kinds that I dont have to prove myself by using a handgun to hunt with anymore. I find myself using rifles more anymore then handguns to hunt with. FOR SURE if im going into hunting anymore im not going to tote a 10 inch scoped handgun thats no harder to shoot accurately a 50 yards then a good lever gun and is no easier to carry or a bit lighter. I now carry a handgun hunting when it is more convienent. That to me means when im doing a lot of walking and want a gun on my hip that doesnt get in the way, is fast to grab and doesnt weight 5 lbs. I can get a scope sighted or open sighted lever gun into action a heck of alot faster then a scoped 10 inch revolver.

[white eagle]

+1 yeh!

[44man]

I can't argue with Lloyd. Yes, you can get velocity and short guns feel good.
It is distance and accuracy over distance because my revolvers are all I hunt with. I actually sold my deer rifles. A shoulder holster is as good as it gets. I had to carry my friends rifle while he drug his deer the other day. His shot was less then 50 yards with a .270 and my longest with the revolver this season was 120 yards off hand and I had a better hit, perfect through the boiler room.
The same question always comes up about velocity but fast powder can damage a boolit. Slow powders have been poured unburned from brass and much has been on my bench in front of guns. I get a chance to shoot everything and my choice is between 6" and 7-1/2" for hunting and accuracy at long ranges. As brass gets larger I like 10".
Boolit weight and velocity always comes up with some thinking a heavy boolit can be shot slow. Can you get the required 1300+ fps from a 3" barrel with a 310 to 320 gr boolit? It is at the pressure edge with a 10".
So I tested by reducing the velocity of a heavy boolit in the .44 just a little. About a short barrel. You can see the difference at 50 yards.

[Moonie]

One of my sons has a 5 shot 44magnum with a 2 1/2" barrel with fixed sights, it is not designed for hunting and there is no need to shoot 300-320gr boolits in it. Granted it is not my gun nor do I have any use for it, I carry a compact 1911.

[Lloyd Smale]

My 3.5 inch redhawk will easily do 1300 with a 300 and in all reality will do close to 1400 without pressure signs and brass that falls out of the cylinder. thing is for me anyway those little grips on it limit MY velocity level with it not the guns. I brought some ammo out to one of the linebaugh shoots a few years back loaded with a 340 grain bullet that was doing 1250 out of a 4 5/8s ruger, granted its a gun that has a good barrel and allways does better then id think it would so Id about bet in a 3 inch ruger i could get it to close 1150. Thats alot of killing power right there. More then enough for anything in the US and id about laugh at anyone that said i was handycapped with that load out of 3 inch gun. that bullet and load beat out alot of the 475 and 500 linebaugh loads tested that year for penetration. I think it place about 3rd or 4th from the top. Id also laugh at anyone that thinks my 4 inch 500 linebaughs are underpowered because of there short barrels. Bottom line is a guy has to use what he likes. Not what someone else likes. Personaly i dont feel one bit handycapped buy using a short barreled gun to hunt with. If your capable of shooting it a 3inch gun will kill any animal a 10 inch gun will in the same caliber. The only thing that little bit of extra velocity is buying you is a slightly flatter trajectory but its a minor difference at handgun hunting ranges and a guy needs to learn where to hold at differnt ranges no matter how long of a handgun hes using.
I can't argue with Lloyd. Yes, you can get velocity and short guns feel good.
It is distance and accuracy over distance because my revolvers are all I hunt with. I actually sold my deer rifles. A shoulder holster is as good as it gets. I had to carry my friends rifle while he drug his deer the other day. His shot was less then 50 yards with a .270 and my longest with the revolver this season was 120 yards off hand and I had a better hit, perfect through the boiler room.
The same question always comes up about velocity but fast powder can damage a boolit. Slow powders have been poured unburned from brass and much has been on my bench in front of guns. I get a chance to shoot everything and my choice is between 6" and 7-1/2" for hunting and accuracy at long ranges. As brass gets larger I like 10".
Boolit weight and velocity always comes up with some thinking a heavy boolit can be shot slow. Can you get the required 1300+ fps from a 3" barrel with a 310 to 320 gr boolit? It is at the pressure edge with a 10".
So I tested by reducing the velocity of a heavy boolit in the .44 just a little. About a short barrel. You can see the difference at 50 yards.

[44man]

True until you consider my old age wiggle makes a short barrel fly all over the place! :mrgreen:
Even after shooting my big guns I can't hold the Mark II still at all. I need the sideways, over the head hold to throw bullets!

[Groo]

Groo here
At the same speed, a bullet will not shoot any better or worse from a 3 in or a 20 in.. the twist and speed is the same..
A slow powder that gives the fastest speeds from a 6in will almost always give the FASTEST speeds from a 3in [ just not the same speeds]
Schuemann barrels who make HYcomp barrels for 1911's states that 90% of your speed is obtained in the first 2 or three inches of barrel the extra speed being added as the barrel gets longer.
I have them in 38super 10mm and 45acp and the 10% loss works about right.
You can get more increase by using a rifle --- but we are talking handguns here.
And 44man- the only time the twist of the bullet does not match the barrel twist no matter how long or short is when the bullet strips the rifling and then you get a barrel full of lead to clean,,,,,

[Lloyd Smale]

heres my take on that argument and again its nothing but personal opinion. You wiggle with any handgun. NOBODY can hold one rock steady. To me i see more of that wiggle (not saying there is more) with a long barrled gun. As you know most of what constitutes accurate pistol shooting is trigger control. The ablility of your mind to make your finger make the trigger break at the precise time the sights are lined up with the target. When i use a long barrled gun my eyes see more movement and this to me makes it more difficult to do this. I tend to hold one longer while waiting for the sights to look right and not rely on my brain to do it instinctively. Bottom line is in my opinion (again just an opinion) a guy that has mastered trigger control can about shoot long or short barreled guns about equally off hand. Lots will tell you that a long barreled gun is easier to shoot but from what ive seen its mostly inexperienced shooters that claim this. Im not saying your inexperienced Jim. Far from it. But that brings me back to the most important variable here. What you like and what your used to and most importantly trigger control. Trigger control is a much bigger variable in accuracy then barrel lenght or anything else in pistol shooting.

Im far from the best pistol shoot in the world. Im friends with a few guys that make me look about like a rookie. But i think im a bit better then avearage. Why? Lots of trigger practice. This pistol shooting **** never came naturaly to me and it took many many thousands of rounds to hone my trigger control. No Jim, im not going to sit down and compete with you on a bench shooting tiny groups at a 100 yards. My eyes dont allow for it anymore and even when they did i doubt i was as good as you at doing it. But i think i do as good as anyone off hand. Funny thing is just for grins ive showed up at a ppc match with a ruger alaskan 454 and shot the course. I ended up shooting only 4 points less then my average of 295 with that gun and still took second in the expert class. I too showed up at a bullseye shoot once with my 3 inch kimber using open sights and took a 3rd place that day competeing against dot sighted long slides. What does it prove? That trigger control is alot more important then barrel lenght and how much you spent on equiptment. It also shows that a guy that can shoot surely isnt handicapped by a 3 inch gun in the hunting field where your typical target has a kill zone of 6 inches or more. I dont know how many deer youve shot with handguns. I knows its been more then a few. I do know that ive shot more then a few with handguns and most of them with guns with3- 4 5/8s barrels and never thought to myself, Boy i wish i had a longer barrel. Or had a single instance where a bullet bounced off a deer or wounded a deer that would have died if i had 200 fps more velocity.
True until you consider my old age wiggle makes a short barrel fly all over the place! :mrgreen:
Even after shooting my big guns I can't hold the Mark II still at all. I need the sideways, over the head hold to throw bullets!

[308w]

The rpm remains the same for a given velocity and a given twist rate, based on factory specs, a 10 twist 3inch barrel will have the same rpm as a 30 inch barrel if the velocity is the same, or at least thats the way I see it.....

[44man]

The rpm remains the same for a given velocity and a given twist rate, based on factory specs, a 10 twist 3inch barrel will have the same rpm as a 30 inch barrel if the velocity is the same, or at least thats the way I see it.....
Maybe, but it is something I can't prove either way. I JUST DON'T KNOW! It is based on paper figures only.
Notice the new BFR Shorty in .44 has a 1 in 16" twist! Anyway, I can't picture RPM's.
Lloyd brings up good points too. I never dispute either. It is just me and a heavy gun holds steadier for me. Trigger control---YES, OF COURSE AND THAT IS THE DOWNFALL of many shooters. A short barrel will move more with poor trigger control and a thousandths of an inch at the sights will make you shoot poor.
My average revolver triggers are 1-1/2#, some down to 19 ounces. My MOA is 18 ounces.
Long ago when I had eyes I could shoot a squirrel in the head at 50 yards with an open sight Mark II. But I got used to weight with the big BFR's and can hit bottles of water off hand at 100 yards and the Mark II is a waver! [smilie=s: I need weight to damp out shakes.
Look at it from an old mans side. Little guns jiggle. On a stand with my long .44, any deer is dead no matter how far. My best shot with the BFR in JRH was 120 yards this season, off hand. I shot a deer in the neck at 67 yards, with the .475. Shots with the .44 were farther.
Sure, short guns can be accurate. Yet I will still wonder about spin.

[jwp475]

Lloyd has it right, the proper burn rate powder will give the highest velocity regardless of the barrel length

[Mal Paso]

I have two 4" carry 44 Mags and personally, wouldn't go shorter. 4" doesn't get in the way and is as short a sight radius as I like. 1 Colt, 1 Ruger, both kiss 1500fps with Elmer's Load. 6" is a little over 100fps faster.

[44man]

Now I shot Elmer's load of 22 gr of 2400 and the 429421 out of a 7-1/2" FT all the time and never got 1500 fps. I have never shot that fast with a 240 gr with 296.
Lloyd and JWP say "proper burn rate" and that is true.
Elmer's load would not break 1400 fps with max pressure from a 7" barrel.
You can reach over 1600 fps with a 180 gr bullet from 7".
But no matter, I still question spin from short barrels. How do we find out?
Seems to me a short barrel needs a different boolit weight and powder.

[jwp475]

Spin rate is dictated by the twist rate of the barrel, not by the length of the barrel. RPM's are dictated by the twist rate of the barrel and the velocity of the bullet

[Mal Paso]

Now I shot Elmer's load of 22 gr of 2400 and the 429421 out of a 7-1/2" FT all the time and never got 1500 fps. I have never shot that fast with a 240 gr with 296.
Lloyd and JWP say "proper burn rate" and that is true.
Elmer's load would not break 1400 fps with max pressure from a 7" barrel.
You can reach over 1600 fps with a 180 gr bullet from 7".
But no matter, I still question spin from short barrels. How do we find out?
Seems to me a short barrel needs a different boolit weight and powder.


I'll stand by it.

250g NOE 429421 .431, 22g 2400. 6 shots, 1505 high-1493 low, SD 4.8 fps.

240g Lyman 429421 .430, 22g 2400 6 shots, 1463 high-1452 low, SD 4.8 fps. Same powder, load, test session just not as good a fit. 430. was as large as the Lyman would cast.

Don't know why 2400 is underrated in load books. Most show 296 as the top performer but if you look at pressures the 2400 was loaded to Less Pressure. Magic happens at 22g but I drop to 19g in the 6" Smith which isn't as strong as Colt or Ruger. 22g/6" topped out at 1608 fps.

All I know is 4&6 inch 44 Mags but I've noticed you guys that shoot 7 inch and longer Short Rifles like 296/H110 better.:kidding:

[Mal Paso]

Spin rate is dictated by the twist rate of the barrel, not by the length of the barrel. RPM's are dictated by the twist rate of the barrel and the velocity of the bullet

Not if the boolit strips the rifling.

[cbrick]

Spin rate is dictated by the twist rate of the barrel, not by the length of the barrel. RPM's are dictated by the twist rate of the barrel and the velocity of the bullet

Exactly.

The boolit will spin at the twist rate of the barrel. The only way to change that is for the boolit to strip and not spin. If the barrel is 100 inches long or 1 inch long if the twist is 1 in 18 inches the spin is the same in both barrel lengths.

The barrel's twist rate and the forward velocity will dictate the RPM. If you have a velocity of 1 foot per second and a 1 in 18 twist the boolit will spin at 1 turn in 18 inches in 1 second, if you increase the velocity (fps) the bullet still spins at 1 turn in 18 inches but because of the velocity (fps) increase the boolit will travel more inches per second but at 1 turn in 18 inches thus a higher RPM.

Rick

[OuchHot!]

I've run hot cast loads in my 3" 657 and not seen any tipping or other signs of instability out to 100yds. They don't lead so I don't think they strip. As far as I can tell the length of the barrel does not impact whether or not the boolit spins up.

[44man]

Exactly.

The boolit will spin at the twist rate of the barrel. The only way to change that is for the boolit to strip and not spin. If the barrel is 100 inches long or 1 inch long if the twist is 1 in 18 inches the spin is the same in both barrel lengths.

The barrel's twist rate and the forward velocity will dictate the RPM. If you have a velocity of 1 foot per second and a 1 in 18 twist the boolit will spin at 1 turn in 18 inches in 1 second, if you increase the velocity (fps) the bullet still spins at 1 turn in 18 inches but because of the velocity (fps) increase the boolit will travel more inches per second but at 1 turn in 18 inches thus a higher RPM.

Rick
Exactly right. More velocity adds spin with a fixed twist. Slow the boolit and spin is reduced.
But shorten to almost a straight line through the bore is where I am at with thinking. I can't prove a single thing, it is just thinking about it. Twist is still paper figures when it comes to barrel length.

[jwp475]

Exactly right. More velocity adds spin with a fixed twist. Slow the boolit and spin is reduced.
But shorten to almost a straight line through the bore is where I am at with thinking. I can't prove a single thing, it is just thinking about it. Twist is still paper figures when it comes to barrel length.

The RPM's are reduced by slowing the velocity, but the twist rate remains the same

[44man]

The RPM's are reduced by slowing the velocity, but the twist rate remains the same
I wish we could measure. I am in contact with a few gun makers for opinions.
I have to look at things like a 1 in 60" twist for a round ball gun if you shorten to 3". How much spin if you did get to the same velocity as a long rifle? Will the ball leave before it spins up?
This is not an easy question or answer.

[jwp475]

The rate of twist is what matters not the length of the barrel

[cbrick]

I dunno Jim, are you confusing revolutions per minute (RPM) with twist rate spin or trying to merge the two into one thing? They are two different things.

If the bullet is turning at 1 turn in 18 inches that's just what it's doing, for every 18 inches of forward travel the bullet turns once. It doesn't matter if it got that spin in a 3 inch barrel or a 30 inch barrel.

RPM is how many times it turns one complete turn in one minute. If you double the velocity out of the same 1 in 18 twist barrel the spin is still the same but the RPM's are higher siimply because it's going faster.

Rick

[jwp475]

I dunno Jim, are you confusing revolutions per minute (RPM) with twist rate spin or trying to merge the two into one thing? They are two different things.

If the bullet is turning at 1 turn in 18 inches that's just what it's doing, for every 18 inches of forward travel the bullet turns once. It doesn't matter if it got that spin in a 3 inch barrel or a 30 inch barrel.

RPM is how many times it turns one complete turn in one minute. If you double the velocity out of the same 1 in 18 twist barrel the spin is still the same but the RPM's are higher siimply because it's going faster.

Rick



Exactly........

[theperfessor]

Agreed.

A bullet also loses forward velocity quicker than it loses spin; the drag caused by air has a lot of effect on translational motion but considerably less on rotational motion. Thus the reports you hear of bullets shot up in the air that come down on ice and are still spinning like a top even when they have no forward velocity.

What most people don't consider when thinking about bullet expansion is the effect of centripetal forces caused by spin. We all think about the forward velocity but do you ever think of the effect spin has on expansion?

[Lloyd Smale]

my take on it is this and im no scientist so it surely could be wrong. A bullet comming out of a 3 inch gun is rotating the same as it would out of a 10 inch gun with the same twist. Differnce is that because its going faster it arrives at the target fast enough that it hasnt lost that twist enough to reduce stability. Like i said im not expert and even though i love my short barrels ive done enough long range shooting to know that even an extra 100 fps adds alot to long range stability of a handgun bullet. Not that a short barreled gun cant get the job done. Ive seen some pretty amazing shots way out there with 4 inch guns. It just takes a bit more work on the loading table to find something that does stay stable.

[Lloyd Smale]

again this is just me thinking outloud but if a bullet is shot out of a 1-10 twist rifle. When it hits the deer its actually only turning a bit over one turn going through the animal. I dont know how much that is going to effect expansion. Id guess that lack of rotation would effect it more as it would cause a bullet to go in unstable. Like the example allways used for ball .223 out of an ar.
Agreed.

A bullet also loses forward velocity quicker than it loses spin; the drag caused by air has a lot of effect on translational motion but considerably less on rotational motion. Thus the reports you hear of bullets shot up in the air that come down on ice and are still spinning like a top even when they have no forward velocity.

What most people don't consider when thinking about bullet expansion is the effect of centripetal forces caused by spin. We all think about the forward velocity but do you ever think of the effect spin has on expansion?

[44man]

Lloyd is thinking like me. It is stability and accuracy I always think about and I care less about more velocity then any boolit needs. I do care if a velocity can't be reached for a certain boolit. If you can shoot faster then what a boolit wants, you can slow it. That is why we work loads.
But spin is still based on paper figures. How about a magic marker on the side of the boolit and count turns in a second? :mrgreen:
Someone has to test with a short barrel over distance so I will add a few things. My .44 SBH will shoot anything from 240 to 330 gr boolits. It has a 10" barrel and has done 1-5/16" at 200 yards with a 330 gr boolit. I get roughly 1316 fps. Will someone with a 2" .44 with a 310 to 320 gr boolit at that velocity show 50 and 100 yard results? Ransom rest, scope, bags, no matter, just to see if the boolit is still stable.
I really want to know and will concede my thinking about spin if a short barrel will spin up a boolit.

[jwp475]

A bullet should fit the grove of the barrel. That allows the rifling to engrave the bullet. The amount of energy required to make the bullet turn with the engraving is minimal. The bullet will turn at the rate of twist both in and outside the barrel. Spin stabilized projectile are more stabile at distance with the center of gravity towards the rear of the projectile. RPM's and twist rate are tied together but are not one and the same

[jwp475]

I prefer a barrel no longer than 6" for long range shooting using open sights.

[44man]

I might look at it wrong and 6" works. I just want to be set straight. Not to argue but to actually see what happens.
I have no way of seeing since I only have longer barrels for hunting.

[jwp475]

I believe Bob Munden shot an egg at 100 or 200 yards with a 1 7/8" barreled j-frame S&W

[jwp475]

Not an egg but 200 yards none the less


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tied-t1fFsk

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive watched and done it myself guys with 3-5.5 inch big bore handguns pound a steel 3/4 sized buffalo at 800 yards. Luckily nobody told us those short barrels wouldnt shoot. I hit 4 out of 5 to win the 44 class and my buddy won both the 475 and 500 class with 5 out of 5! The 475 he used was his 4 5/8s vaquero and the 500 he used was one i won that day and we did nothing but sight it in at 25 yards with some ammo from one of his 500s. He talked me out of that gun before we got back home. What does this prove. NOT MUCH. It does show that barrel lenght wont make you a marksman. Either you have it or you dont and if you do a short barrel sure doesnt handycap you much.

[Dan Cash]

"Will a 2" or 3" barrel impart the same spin as a 6" or 10" barrel at the same velocity? "

Yes. As long as the projectile has gripped the rifling, the rotation is determined by rifling pitch and forward velocity.

[jwp475]

"Will a 2" or 3" barrel impart the same spin as a 6" or 10" barrel at the same velocity? "

Yes. As long as the projectile has gripped the rifling, the rotation is determined by rifling pitch and forward velocity.



Exactly, as long as the velocity and twist rate is the same then the RPM's will also be the same

[44man]

Well, I am going to have to agree with you fellas.

[cbrick]

Well, I am going to have to agree with you fellas.

Well dang, what are we gonna argue about now? [smilie=1: I guess something will come up soon. :mrgreen:

Rick

[bassnbuck]

cbrick, you want me to post another simple question?

[Lloyd Smale]

cant we all NOT get along;)