22 HMR vs 22 Hornet

[oldred]

I have working on a scratch-built scaled down "Baby" Highwall that was to be chambered in 22 HMR so the barrel chosen has a 1-14" twist. It will soon be time to chamber this barrel but right now I am still at a point where I could chamber for a different cartridge since I am just starting to make the extractor, this can be made to work with whatever cartridge I choose as long as it is for a .223 bore. The barrel blank is a Green Mountain raw blank sold specifically for the 22 HMR but it's a heavy 4140 tube that will easily handle high pressure rounds such as the .223 so my only concern with changing from the 22 HMR to the Hornet would be the twist rate. Would the 1-14" twist work ok with a 45 grain bullet at 22 Hornet velocities?

[trevj]

Yes.

And worrying about the differences between a .223 and a .224 bore, makes a lot of swell filler for magazine articles, but not much difference in the real world.

Case(s) in point, wrt bore size differences in Hornets,is thatCZ is still selling rifles that use .223 bore barrels, and they ae not particular about whether you should shoot (or not), commercial loaded ammo, which is generally loaded with a .224 bullet.

Ruger made a whole pile of 7.62x39 guns with .308 barrels rather than the .311-314 size that they are supposedly suposed to have.

And on and on...

An awful pile of Springfield Armory .22 rimfire barrels were used to build Hornets over the years, along with a bunch of others. 22LR usually uses a 16 twist as does the 22WRFM. The Magnum is supposed to have a .224 bore, but has been shot through a lot of .223 barrels...to no poor effect, provided that the firearm so converted was up to it.

Now, all that as it has been, the only sure thing that can be said, is that every barrel and bullet combo, is an entity unto it's own self, and there are at least as many exceptions as there are rules, if not more. At some point, you have to try it and see how it's going to work out.

As to the twist rate, 14 twist is/was the 'standard for .22 Center fire rifles up until recent years when the trend to heavier bullets came upon us. Most factory loads usually topped out at about 60 grains, with the normal being between 45 grains (esp for Hornets) and 55 grains.

I don't think you will have anything to worry about.

Cheers
Trev

[I'll Make Mine]

I presume you mean .22 WMR, aka .22 Magnum? That barrel should stabilize the same weight bullet at the same or higher velocity regardless what cartridge pushed it. The .22 Magnum pushes a 50 grain at 1650 from a 24 inch test barrel, so as long as you're getting 1650 or higher from your Hornet loads you should be fine. Given the Hornet factory loadings run more than 50% faster, I wouldn't expect any trouble stabilizing bullets up to 60 or 65 grains, maybe even heavier (though I'm talking on a theoretical basis, not from experience).

FWIW, the reason for the very fast twist in 5.56 NATO is to ensure that a tail heavy bullet tumbles on impact, and civilian .223 barrels just follow along; there's no stability related reason to need a twist faster than 12" with .223 ballistics, and even 12" is only really necessary for bullets above about 70 grains.

[oldred]

Wow, I can't believe I did that! :groner: I was talking on the phone to my son just a few moments before posting that and we were discussing the 17 HMR vs the 22 WMR so I guess I had HMR on the brain, of course I meant 22 WMR but I didn't even notice the blunder until you pointed it out. Ok that's my embarrassing moment for the day. :veryconfu



Ok so the 1-14 twist should be ok then? I have a 22 WMR reamer but the more I thought about it the more I was thinking that the Hornet would be a much better choice but I was uncertain because this barrel blank is labeled 22 WMR.

[.22-10-45]

Hello, oldred. When i ordered the 26" chrome-moly match barrel for my custom Sharps-Borchardt .22 Hornet, I specified the 1-14" twist..and Ed agreed that this twist would be far more useful than the old 1-16" the Hornet has been sadled with over the years.
I am able to use cast-bullets up to 58gr. with very good accuracy.
Speaking of accuracy..if possible, have your chamber cut to minimum dimensions, with tight headspace. It took nearly 5 years..custom moulds, sizing dies & lots of work, but I was able to equal best jacketed match bullet accuracy at 100yds with cast bullets. I think you'll have much more fun with the Hornet than the WMR.

[oldred]

Ok that cinches it I will make the extractor to fit the Hornet case and just order a new reamer, didn't like the idea of not being able to reload the RF cases anyway.

[I'll Make Mine]

didn't like the idea of not being able to reload the RF cases anyway.

That'd be the real clincher for me; you can reload Hornet for half the price or less of .22 WMR, and easily match the rimfire ballistics if you need to for some reason. However, now you have to decide if you want original Hornet or one of the various "improved" versions -- K-Hornet, Hornet AI, Hornet Federal Improved, etc. K-Hornet and AI are pretty common and both can fire factory Hornet ammunition (which also fire forms the case, of course).

[oldred]

I just did a quick check on the K-Hornet and that looks like the way to go, lots of advantages over the original Hornet it seems but one of the things mentioned sounded kind of odd. Apparently the K-Hornet for whatever reason has much better case life than the original version, seems odd since the "K" cases are fire formed from the originals. Not sure this is even true since I am not that familiar with any of the Hornet versions and I just spent a few minutes looking at the info but I sure like what I see so far!

[Bullshop]

I just did a quick check on the K-Hornet and that looks like the way to go, lots of advantages over the original Hornet it seems but one of the things mentioned sounded kind of odd. Apparently the K-Hornet for whatever reason has much better case life than the original version, seems odd since the "K" cases are fire formed from the originals. Not sure this is even true since I am not that familiar with any of the Hornet versions and I just spent a few minutes looking at the info but I sure like what I see so far!
Hornet cases are thin and with the long gentle taper they tend to flow forward and streach when pressure aproaches near top end. The near straight body and sharp shoulder of the K version tend to retard the brass streaching issue with warm hornet loads and so give better case life. Standard hornet chamber will give good case life if you stay a couple hundred FPS below your guns max loads.
If your rifle will max at 2500 fps with a 40gn bullet in the standard hornet chamber then load to 2300 and have long case life. If you want to shoot max loads go with the K and you might get 100 fps over your max load of 2500 for the standard chamber but still do it with good case life. I am talking rough numbers here so dont take them as gospel.

[dagger dog]

The 1 in 14 twist is optimal for Hornet bullets into the 30-50 gr. range. The .223 bore is the older diameter for the Hornet, the original ones were using the 22 rimfire diameter .223 with a 1in 16 twist rate.

Most modern Hornets made in the US are 1-14 twist .224" some Euro brands still use the 1-16. If you ever plan to shoot the jword bullets you will want to be able to shoot .224 diameter although some jword manufactuers still produce .223's for the older guns.

Recent trends in the new jwords are the 30 gr range with VLD design, and the work well in the 1 in 14 twist, weghts don't really matter as much as the length of the bullet and the newer designs are very long for their weight which gives the advantage of seating depth to the lands.

Using 12.5 grs Lil'Gun and 40 Gr Vmax you can get way over 5 loadings without any loss of brass and still get 2800 fps.

I don't have any experiance with the K but most that I have read or heard is that you will lose some brass fire forming and the 100-150 fps with the older 45 grain bullet just don't pan out especially with the newer 30 VLD designs.

You can barely compare the 22 HMR to a 30 grain Barnes Varmint Grenade pushed out of the original Hornet case into a 24" 1-14 twist barrel with 12.5-13grs of Hodgdon Lil'Gun that I have chroned @ 3000+ fps. It will put down coyote size varmints well beyond 150 yds and just leave one hole.

[kir_kenix]

I have several of each and I would give my nod to the hornet or k-hornet. Dagger is very correct in preaching the new, ultra light weight bullets out there. I have had the best luck with 35 and 40 gr. v-maxes from Hornady (I believe the 35 may be discontinued or produced sporadically...). The varmint gernade is pretty neat, but hasn't shot as well for me.

If you really want to go high speed in the k-hornet, there is an outfit called Calhoon or Calhoun Bullets that makes 22 and 25 gr .224 bullets. They are nasty, and will begin blowing up even in carboard. I use these on ground squirrels in the cattle pasture...zero chance of a richochet hurting a cow or calf 1.5 miles away because they blow up and lose velocity even in the grass. Anihilate ground squirrels.

There are alot of good molds that will work in either the hornet or k-hornet.

Might also look into the .222 rimmed. Brass lasts forever compared to anything based on the hornet case. 200 cases would likely last a lifetime as long as you didn't load to the top end, and annealed from time to time.

[TCLouis]

OK Hornet,

Good K Hornet,

Mo Better 218 Bee

Maybe even 221 Fireball

[Bullshop]

''''Maybe even 221 Fireball ''''
Now your talking! I read an article a few years back titled ""221 FB the new 22 hornet"""
After reading that I built a 221 and have found what I was always looking for in a hornet but more better.
One thing the author left out of the article is free brass. I make 221 brass from 223 I find anywhere people go shooting. Stronger brass that last much longer even with full tilt loads and if desired more velocity than even the K hornet can muster. I built mine with a 17" bull barrel so its stiff but not too heavy to pack.
This is the rifle I used to get the 38gn NOE copy of the Lyman #107 design to 3650 fps when I was testing our Lotak lube.
I spent a lot of years looking for a good hornet and went through a number of them but since I built this 221 I have lost interest in a hornet. But then if I could have afforded a Walther 22 hornet I saw at a gun show I may never have built the 221.

[eck0313]

FWIW, the reason for the very fast twist in 5.56 NATO is to ensure that a tail heavy bullet tumbles on impact, and civilian .223 barrels just follow along; there's no stability related reason to need a twist faster than 12" with .223 ballistics, and even 12" is only really necessary for bullets above about 70 grains.[/QUOTE]

You've got this all wrong. The faster twist stabilizes the longer, 62gr M855 projectiles. The M855 ammo does not tumble when fired out of 1/7 twist barrels. 62 grain M855 projectiles WILL tumble out of 1/12 twist ARs. Been there, done that. The 1/12 twist barrels were NOT designed for anything above 55 grain M193 ball ammo.

[oldred]

This rifle is a scaled down replica Highwall original type action and thus will require a rimmed case and while the barrel is 4140 and the receiver is milled from 4140HT it is still a home made action and I would feel better keeping pressures kind of on the low side compared to high pressure .223 rounds.

[kenyerian]

I don't know which way I would go on that. I have 3 guns /barrels in 22WMR's and 3 in 22 Hornet. I've had a coupe of different pistols in 221 FB. I think they are still the fastest pistol caliber. In a rifle you would be looking at 3200 FT/Sec with a 45 grain bullet with the 221 FB, 2750 in a hornet and the 22WMR plods along at 2200Ft/sec. I like them all but the high wall in 221 FB would be something special.

[oldred]

I like them all but the high wall in 221 FB would be something special.



The fireball is a spectacular short barrel round and would probably work well with the 20" barrel this rifle has but as I pointed out the original type Highwall action presents some serious extraction problems with rimless cases, possible I suppose but very problematic.

[kenyerian]

Sorry, I didn't see your post on the extraction problems. I'm sure your rifle will turn out to be something special and I hope you will have some pictures when you are finished .

[starmac]

Have you given any thought to the cooper ccm 22. I don't know about the brass availability, but it sounds interesting.

[trevj]

As long as you are working from a more or less clean slate as far as cartridge choices go, I suspect that the two most reasonable cases to base your choices off (based on the rimmed, and available, criteria) are going to be the Hornet or one of it's variants, or the .218 Bee (based on 32-20, originally, as was the 25-20, so you may well end up using all three headstamps).

If the .221 Fireball, with the heavier built modern style case (the Hornet and the 32-20 are fairly thin, by comparison) are drawing you, there is always an option to round up some .222 Rimmed brass and form that up into essentially a .221 Rimmed Fireball. That would give you the best of both worlds, but a bit more of a headache with the sourcing of brass...

Or you could muck about a bit and neck down a .38 or .357 case to .22, or... well, it does go on an on when you start down that path!

Cheers
Trev

[uscra112]

.22 K Hornet, IMHO. The rimfire round won't give you the fun of trying the many different loadings that the Hornet can handle. The K Hornet doesn't have the brass flow problem that the standard Hornet is famous (notorious?) for having. I reamed my Contender barrel last year, and am amazed at the improvement. The short neck of the "K" will still handle any of the 45 grain cast boolits.

[1Shirt]

Have hornet and K hornet. The K is more forgiving overall, and more versitile for both J and cast. 22Mags are expensive, and not reloadable.
1Shirt!

[WinMike]

At one time, I owned a version of Browning's low wall in almost every caliber they produced: 22 Hornet, .223, 243, 260 Rem, plus the .357 "traditional" version. I've sold off all except the Hornet and the .357. None of these are as exciting as building one yourself, so I envy you your skills.

Anyway, I really like the plain ol' Hornet. It's fun, one can shoot it all day without burning out the barrel, it's accurate, and I've been getting 6-7 reloads on the brass.

On the other hand, last summer I fired a friend's .218 Bee. Pretty neat....and accurate too (it was in a converted Anschutz). That's my second vote.

Or, if you want exotic, there's always the .222 Remington Rimmed....:roll:

[303Guy]

Folks, I here a lot of " drive the boolit fast enough to stabilize with that twist ". That is not true. Velocity has very little to do with stabilizing a boolit in a given twist. The same twist will stabilize the same boolit at any velocity except maybe trans-sonic velocity. Subsonic does seem to require a slightly higher velocity so while 1-in-16 will stabilize a 58gr boolit just fine in a hornet, I think 1-in-14 is required for subsonic loads.

P.S. 3000fps and up requires a faster twist than does 2000 to 3000fps.

[dagger dog]

oldred,

I'm in sympathy with your plight and in trying to save you some anguish I ran across the 270 REN, the Hornet case necked up to .270",specifically for long barreled silhouette hand guns can shoot 90-110 gr bullets from1474-1888 fps with moderate powder charges, and retain enough down range energy. Looks like the mate to your 20" barrel, and has enough poop to get the job done on oversized gophers.

#'s pulled from 10th edition Cartridges of the World.

[crow531]

Just to throw in another option look at the Freedom Arm's 224-32FA. Don't know what it would do from a rifle but it gets just under 2300fps witha 40 gr bullet threw a Freedom Arms revolver. Should be pretty stout threw a rifle and totally reloadable.

[Canuck Bob]

The last series of Hornets from H&R have 1-9 twist so they can use the same barrel as the 223. I bought one because of a desire to use heavy bullets in low velocity ranges. All I've fired is Winchester factory 45 gr stuff so far and it is just fine.

Hoping to fire 55 SX bullets at reduced speeds for gophers on the open prairie so they got some reach but no ricochets. Then maybe some heavy lead bullets at subsonic for my own whisper lead shooter.

[WinMike]

The last series of Hornets from H&R have 1-9 twist so they can use the same barrel as the 223.....

That's just lazy manufacturing.....unwillingness to commit to the original caliber. The joy of the Hornet is the ability to shoot hundreds of 35-45 gr. rounds a day without burning up a barrel, no noise, etc. I could see 1-10 or 11 twist, but 1-9 is simply a new cartridge.

Ummmm.....yeah, I'm an old fart traditionalist!