Hello from a beginning caster and a concern for my first smelting

[flysubcompact]

Finally got my first bullet casting stuff. A Lee sizer die (.357") and a Lee 2 cavity mold (says it's a .356", but it throws .358-.359 OD castings) My Glock's 9mm pistol barrel (40-9mm conversion from Lone Wolf) slugs at .356". I was told on another forum that .001" over slugged OD is good for keeping barrel leading down.

I had a coffee can full of wheel weights from about 5 years ago. Lacking a proper temp controlled smelting rig I just melted it, slowly, on a Coleman stove.

Research told me that lead melts around 620 and zinc (which may or may not be in a mixed batch of WW) has a melting point near 780. Like I said, I melted it very slowly in hope of not accidently adding zinc to this first batch. I hoped to see a zinc "floater" in the batch but never did. The only thing I saw floating was steel clips and dirt.

Even though I'm 85% sure that this is straight up WW lead, that other 15% of doubt is gnawing on me. In the sticky threads there is a way to check hardness with pencils. I only have number 2's, unfortunately. I've casted pure lead in the past for my ML rifle, but judging this WW stuff is scary. Just don't want to blow up my pistol. Is there another redneck way to test hardness for a beginner like me? Thanks. -Fly

[lwknight]

Welcome aboard.
If you melted zinc into the mix , you will know it.
There will be slushy oatmeal stuff that will not stir in floating on top.
Not to be confused with regular dross and oxides that form but it will be significantly obvious.

I doubt that you got them too hard. Clip wheel weights will probably be hard enough just like they are unless you load hot loads then you might need to harden them up some more.

Also adding 2% tin will help lower your casting temperature and help with mold fill out.

Plenty of reading material in this forum plus gobs of links to other information sources.

[flysubcompact]

lwknight,

Thanks for the welcome and reply.

I used to cast round ball for my muzzleloader with (known) pure lead. Back then, my first mold fills were wrinkled until the mold warmed. Then it would be a matter of timing to keep castings shiney. Usually I'd have to dump 4-5 casts until I got good RB's. Too fast/hot and they'd frost.

I noticed right away with this WW casting that after getting rid of wrinkly casts and good fill that the casts were a tad frosty looking. Not real bad,but not near as shiney as pure lead at that point. I did not notice a slight sludge. It did need skimming after about 75 casts. I seem to recall that pure lead did the same thing.

Looking for moderate speed loads for range plinking. Just want to make sure these are safe enough for my family to shoot.

[41 mag fan]

First off it's best to have a thermometer. It's worth its weight in gold.
Second, how are you heating your mold up? Hotplate or dipping it in the melt?
How long is it taking your sprue to solidify? 6sec is the Holy Grail so to speak, any sooner than 4 sec, it's too cool, any longer than 6 sec and the molds to hot, hence frosty boolits.

That skimming after 75 casts, is one of a few things possible, either your not fluxing good enough the first time and scraping the pot good to get it all to the top, or your melts so hot, the tin and antimony are seperating from the lead. Tin helps with fill out, Antimony with hardness.

Frosty boolits will shoot just as well as shiney.

[lwknight]

Once the alloy is clean , don't skim it anymore. Use a flux to reduce it back into solution.
This is tin and lead oxides that are recoverable.
If you use a bottom pour melter the dross on top will only prevent more from forming so you can just leave it till your done.

[flysubcompact]

I used the same method I was told to use with pure lead for the ML balls. Heat metal until liquid....stir pot with ladle....drop in a chunk of wax....let it burn off.....skim....float mold on top to warm it....make pours until you balance between wrinkled and frosty.

It seems that the pure lead runs before took a tad longer to solidify than that WW alloy did. I was knocking off sprues in about 3 seconds.

How much does a lead range thermometer cost?

[shadygrady]

well save that zinc an send it to me

[lwknight]

You can get a 800 degree thermometer for $18-$20 something bucks.
Do your shopping for the best deal.

[flysubcompact]

Thanks LW. Will look for one.

BTW, I was concerned about hardness, so I took one of my Hornaday 124 FMJ-RN's and one of these new cast WW bullets and force them through my lubed barrel with a rod and hammer.

The copper plated Hornaday took more effort to force through, so I'm thinking this won't be too hard to shoot. Just started another thread to see if I can get proper OAL and posted load for this bullet.

[kweidner]

The advice given .001 is not good was BAD advice. It will simply swage down and provide a better fit. As long as it chambers It will actually probably help to PREVENT leading as it will not allow gas cutting.

[canyon-ghost]

Just got back from shooting a new pistol, 9mm lead and Carnuba red lube with Bullseye powder. It's safe enough, buddy, just remember to always get the powder in them (can't have a bullet stuck in the barrel). Best ways, have overhead lighting and LOOK in the case when you seat bullets. Otherwise, reloads are as safe as you are. There's just nobody to sue if you do it wrong.

Got a gift card to Gander Mountain as a reward for being with the company 10 years. Promptly bought a Springfield XDM in 9mm, it's really nice.

I was using 3.2 grains of Bullseye behind the Lyman Devastator hollowpoint 9mm bullet. It seems to fire in my S&W and the XDM, shoots really soft. I think I'll see what more Bullseye would do, just a slight increase. Possibly I'll get around to some accuracy testing because I want to change bullets to a plain base, the Devastator is bevel base and it effects my accuracy some.

Good Luck,
Ron

PS: It was just wheelweight, air cooled. The mold dropped about .360 and then I sized to .356. Wheelweight is hard enough, even in magnums. Don't worry with hardness until you push hunting loads with big boomers. Wheelweight can be almost too hard in some instances. Good shooting stuff, you'll see.

[BACKTOSHOOTING]

I just started castimg also and bought new thermometer from the BBQ place listed in a thread from here

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?174026-Casting-thermometer

[flysubcompact]

Speaking of leading.....in case it becomes an issue....

The only lead I've shot is patched round balls in MLers. That barrel aways stayed bright. What exactly does leading look like in a barrel, so I can know what to look for as I work up loads?

[flysubcompact]

The advice given .001 is not good was BAD advice.

That is exactly the kind of thing I keep hearing with conflicting advice on reloading topics. Two folks recommend .001" over as good, then two say it is wrong.


Back,

Thanks for the thermometer link.

[lwknight]

It is for a fact that a lead alloy bullet should be .001 over if it is hard like the commercial cast. If its softer then .002 can be the ticket. Very soft lead need not be over sized if its black powder but the over size never hurts.

If you do not get a really tight fit the gasses will bypass the bullet and burn off lead and cause lead build up in the barrel. You can put your hand in a 400 degree oven briefly and nothing happens but if 400 degree air that is moving hits you then you will be burned instantly. Its the same for bullets.
Alloy bullets are springy and will fit easily through a slightly under sized bore.

[flysubcompact]

Thanks LW.

[evan price]

Antimonious lead alloys (like clip WW) will have a more frosty silver look to them, instead of the shiny chrome look of pure lead. This is normal and is because of the antimony. I have ingots of pure pewter that look like silver spray paint. Silver, shiny, but not mirror chrome. Antimonious lead ingots will almost look like galvanized sheet metal but it's not zinc (like is used for galvanizing) it's the antimony structure.

[Pitchnit]

I don't mind frosty boolits. Its really hard to see them going downrange.[smilie=1:

[True.grit]

Speaking of leading.....in case it becomes an issue....

The only lead I've shot is patched round balls in MLers. That barrel aways stayed bright. What exactly does leading look like in a barrel, so I can know what to look for as I work up loads?


Trust me when you have it you will know it. The 9mm is a tough one to start with. The presure of the round is quite high (34000 psi). I have swiched to a gas check boolit and have eleminated leading. 135gr gas check air cooled with 50/50 ww and plumbers lead 3.7gr unique w/bh 11. It shoots great throught my 40/9mm lone wolf barrel. Also, if the barrel is new you will have some leading until you break it in. I ran some +p ammo through to help with break in. good luck.

[Gliden07]

Shady I'm not trying to hiJack thread but how many do you need to send to make it worth your while?? Thanks!!

[bslim]

Just a sugestion, but try switching your fluxing method to sawdust/wood shavings instead of wax. I found it worked better and smelled much better.

[BAGTIC]

At least .001 larger than bore. Personally more is fine as long as round chambers. I have successfully loaded cast bullets .003-.004 larger with no problems and good results. I believe the obsession with the +.001 inch rule of thumb has caused more problems that it has cured. Potential pressure increase doesn't make much difference. That is why the advice to start the load low and work up as indicated.

[flysubcompact]

Evan,

You said: Antimonious lead alloys (like clip WW) will have a more frosty silver look to them, instead of the shiny chrome look of pure lead. This is normal and is because of the antimony.

Thanks for that info. Good to know. That really had my curiousity up when I first cast these WW's. I just recall pure lead having an almost mirror like skin.

True Grit,

You said: Trust me when you have it you will know it.

Actually, being a noob to casting/shooting WW's, I don't know what to look for. I made a few samples using various combinations using the few supplies I have to try some things. I "think" these WW castings are leading. A look down the barrel shows some dark streaks. Mainly on the lands. Some test firings with my son in law's pistol last weekend showed fine, flat, shiny lead colored flake coming out with a brass bore brush. But, it cleaned out with a few passes of the brush and a patch. Does leading generally clean out that easily? I have no idea.

I made more variations on some samples today and shot them in the Lone Wolf barrel. Groups of three cartridges. Same thing, but like before, a brushing and patch has the bore shiny again.

In those samples I made the following variations:

1-Sized to .357", lubed with straight Alox. 3.8grains of 231.
2-Sized to .357", lubed with straight Alox, but added some homemade lube I had from years ago for my ML shooting. I think it is a recipe I got from online a long time ago called "Junior Lube"...a bee wax/Alox/lard mix. 3.8 grains of 231.
3-UNsized off the mold -.358-.360" OD. Alox and 3.8 grains of 231.
4-Same as 3, but used "Junior Lube" from #2 above.

Cleaned bore between every sample. All left simular stuff in the bore that was easily removed with brushing and light Remoiled patch. Dark powder residue and scant,fine, shiny specks came out.

Bslim,

I will give the sawdust a go when I get a new batch of raw WW's in.

Bagtic,

All I have shot have been at least .001" over. Today I shot some that were .003" over. Also running well below in powder charges I'm suposed to be able to run. First started with about 4 grains fo 231. Max is suposed to be near 5. Loadings today had only 3.8.

[True.grit]

If you shoot just a few then the lead comes out easy. The more shoots you shoot the more the lead gets "ironed in to the bore". It sounds like to me that the leading is manageable. If you send a tite patch down the bore and you get what looks like shinny ribons, that would be leading. How many rounds between cleanning?