Almost 45/70

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Met with a member of this forum this past Saturday, over a good breakfast at the Breakfast Club in down town Moscow, Ideeeeho.

Won't mention any names here, but if he sees this post, he can chime in if he so desires.

Other then the sharing during this first time meeting, the fellow brought along a cartridge that looked at first like a 45/50. The case head marking were something new to me.

He also brought along a case he had formed from a .348 Winchester hull, with the goal in mind of getting this rifle actively shooting again.

After breakfast, we made a trip to the parking lot where I did get to see the rifle, an old military rolling block with a looong barrel which appeared to be in beautiful shape, bright and sharp it entire length.

Apparently the rifle had been shot with 45/70 ammo by the former owner, with each firing resulting in a split case. It wasn't until a trip through a gun show where this new friend happened to spot a rifle like his and then learned what he had, that the whole picture began to unfold. The rifle is a 11.7X56R and as such, is slightly larger then the 45/70 in case size.

It is apparently, of the correct bore size to shoot cast 45/70 boolits.

Should be a real deer and elk slayer if he is able to get a brass supply formed.

Interesting!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Tatume]

Hi Coot,

43 Danish, aka 11.7X56R, loaded ammo is available, though expensive. For example:

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=157957&CAT=4171

Also see:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?34347-11-7-Danish

Take care, Tom

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Thanks Tom,

I'll pass along the info!

CDOC

[montana_charlie]

Guys who shoot patched to bore paper patched bullets, but who don't want to resize their case mouths, often buy Norma basic brass. By the time it is shortened to the desired length for their .45/whatever, the wall thickness at the mouth is considerably more that the standard 10 thousandths.

Because more metal is available, that brand of case, shortened and annealed, should be formable to the chamber your friend has.

CM

[Idaho Mule]

CDOC, thanks for posting this. I am the guilty individual with this rifle and appreciate everyone's input on it. As Crusty said it is an exceptional rifle having been cared for very well over it's long career. This rifle was a wedding gift to my wife and I from her uncle. He was a packer/outfitter for many years in the state of Idaho. His lodge/headquarters was at the confluence of the North Fork and Little North Fork Clearwater River, now under the water of Dworshack Reservoir. The rifle means a great deal to my wife and I but not as a wallhanger. It is in such fine shape and has so much character it just needs to keep on working in our opinions. Hence this search. I am sure I can reform .348 brass, I just need to get the proper dies from Buffalo Arms and then start casting and loading for it. A few yrs back I did slug the barrel and it measured right at .458 if I remember correctly. Still have the slug so I just gotta find it and confirm. I know for a fact that mine likes to split the 45-70 brass so not gonna use it, I will reform. I may order those dies for my birthday and start in on it. I know that you guys on this site are a wealth of information so now is probably a good time to get going on it. Thanks all for the input. JW

[Tatume]

Hi JW,

You might want to place the order early, as Buffalo Arms indicates they are out of stock. However, you could also try CH Tool and Die, as they make the dies that Buffalo Arms sells. Good luck with it; I'm sure you'll enjoy putting it back to wok.

Take care, Tom

[I'll Make Mine]

The other brass source I recall reading about for .43 Spanish is 24 gauge brass shotshells from Magtech. If you load with black powder and paper patch your bullets, you really won't find you need to size much after initial forming (but you'll certainly need dies to form the brass if you don't buy loaded ammunition to start).

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Morn'in Mule,

Just a thought here, but what about the possiblity of a charge of fast powder, small of course, in a 348 case (:roll:Not more then 30 gr or so of Bullseye [smilie=1:), topped off with a slug of cream of wheat. I wonder if that would form the brass.?.?

Anyone out there try this????

As per boolits, you could try some of my boolits sized .460 and I really think that considering the boolits are of like size, it is very likely we can make loads with the 45/70 dies, just making sure to only size the mouth and boolit gripping portion of the case.

I once developed loads for a friend's 300 H&H with my 300 Win Mag dies, as unless the pressures are high, many times you can repeatedly shoot and rechamber a case without sizing anything more then the neck of the case to assure good neck to boolit fit.

Just a thought here.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

By the way Mule, I've found Buffalo Arms to be a good place to buy.

CDOC

[DrtRacr09]

Well I've not formed almost 45-70, I have made 41 Swiss from 348's. 10 gr Bullseye, 1/4 sheet toilet paper, cornmeal/cream o' wheat topped with mystery lube melted out of used sizers. Gets case pretty close, one full load of Black will finish it off. Just remember, if they need an initial length trim, leave em long as they will shorten during forming.

[curator]

Crusty,

If indeed it is a Danish Remington, the caliber could be either 11.7X51R or 11.7X57R as they were imported in both sizes. The original guns were made in a 11.7X46 rim fire then later converted to the longer center fire cartridges. I few of the rifles were converted to center fire but not re-chambered so any configuration is possible. It is best to make a chamber cast before ordering cases. BuffaloArms is a good source for brass. While some people have and do shoot .45-70 cartridges in these guns, the chamber and bore is somewhat larger that .45-70. Split cases and poor accuracy is common doing this. I have one of these rifles and shoot it often. I have seen others with similar rifles use a wrap or two of electrician's tape around the case head of a .45-70 case to get the undersize case to center in the chamber with OK results. Nonetheless, the bore is bigger than standard .45-70 bullets. Mine slugs out to .465" groove diameter. I paper patch .458 slugs up to .466 diameter and get excellent accuracy using 20 to 23 grains of SR4759 or 60 grains of FFg Goex.

[Chicken Thief]

No. No. No. No
The correct caliber is 11.4x51R.
Only about 200 experimental rifles were ever chambered 11.4x56R!!!!!!!!!
Usually the rifles has a way long throat, but none the less the correct caliber is 11.4x51R.
Actual caliber can be anything from .443" to 463" and 45-70 with the rim trimmed will fireform just fine.
A snip of electrical tabe just above the rim will aid fireforming and prevent splits.

I made a lenghty explanation on this a few months back but the search function plays tricks on me.

[Chicken Thief]

Give me a couple of days and i'll do the entire write up again
The way long throats has to do with caliber variation and the conversion to smokeless and jacketed.
Be patient, i'm slobbing red wine right now ;-)

[Duckiller]

Don't mess with 348 Win brass. We who have model 71's NEED it .

[Chicken Thief]

Danish Rolling Blocks and chamber length confusion

The original Danish RB round was 11.4x41.5R rimfire. Load was 60 grains of BP to a 390 grains boolit.
Denmark ordered 20000 rifles to be delivered within 6 months. That backfired for Remington because Sheffield could not deliver enough barrels.
The Danes got to make their own RB’s without paying royalty as a result.
5 production lines was set up and each of them had a master gunsmith wich was in charge of quality. Each smith had to manufacture his own set of Go-No Go gauges and have them certified by the factories master controller. This becomes important later!
All is well and from 1867 to 1878 @78500 RB’s are manufactured.
In 1884 the Danes start to develop a replacement for the RB and at the same time they start to ponder a way to modernise the RB’s. In 1896 they were officially converted to: Smokeless, centerfire and jacketed bullets.
And now comed problems in heaps falling on the arsenal, Because of the 5 different Go-No Go tools it is clear that bores range from 11.25mm~.443” to 11.75mm~.463”. You cant design a standard round with jacketed that will work within those ranges with any kind of accuracy and without huge variations in pressure. So a LARGE long throat is devised to size the bullets for the smaller bores.
That is why some Danes will chamber a 45-90 without problems and why the 11.4x56R thought exists.

In the development of the final cartridge choices in smokeless was dismal and experiments led to the 56mm cartridge. But that meant grinding down the hammer for chamber access and that was dismissed along with slower reloading of the rifle. Only @200 rifles were ever converted and they can be easily identified by the ground hammer.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/R0011143_zpsd9319568.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/R0011144_zps9b008e97.jpg

[Idaho Mule]

I am paying attention here guys. Chamber cast I believe would be advisable. Chicken Thief seems to be well informed here and my ears are on. JW

[skeettx]

Duckiller
Midway has 348 brass :)
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/738735/winchester-reloading-brass-348-winchester-box-of-50

ALSO

The Remington GREEN BOX 45-70 ammo shoots just great in my 11.7 Danish

http://www.ammo-sale.com/proddetail.asp?prod=SS_66234

After initial shooting, I just neck size to hold the bullets.

Mike

[curator]

Chicken Thief,
Thanks for the perspective from Denmark. The historical information is greatly appreciated. Even though only 200 rifles were chambered for the 11.4X56R cartridge, thousands of the Danish rolling block rifles were "rechambered" by running a .45-70 (11.4X54R) chamber reamer into the breech by importers when they arrived on this side of the pond. Buffaloarms lists Danish Remington cases as 11.5X47R, 11.7X51R and 11.7X56R, regardless of what is the correct designation in Denmark. The Buffalo Arms 11.7X56R case works very well in the rifles with the butchered .45-70 rechambering. The cases I have from them are made from .348 Winchester brass which has a case-head size correct for the original chamber. Rim's don't need to be trimmed for rechambered guns. These are wonderful rifles and most over here seem to have very good bores. Mine has a groove diameter of .462. They make great shooters if you can find brass that fits the chamber on your rifle. The rifling twist rate is a bit slower than out military .45-70 which was 1 turn in 22 inches. My Dane appears to have a twist of about 1 turn in 28 inches. It shoots the Lee .458-405HB bullet quite accurately but not ones that are much longer.

[Idaho Mule]

Thanks again for the replies guys. I was out of town for a few days there, had to ring in the New Year with my brothers. I hope to find time in the next few days to drag that rifle out of the safe and do some measuring, maybe post some pictures. Tomorrow I HAVE to get some casting done as I am low on boolits. JW

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

JW,

As I recall you said you know Cliff B.

I have watched him do a chamber cast with sulfur.

Put a patch down the barrel and pour the melted sulfur into the chamber.

Likely not a good thing to do in mama's kitchen

CDOC

[Idaho Mule]

Got the dies ordered today from ch4d, NOT cheap. At least they are on the way tho. CDOC, I have already thought of the COW fireforming method and figure on trying that with a couple of rounds to see what happens.I wonder if I should neck the 348 up to .430 and fire a cast boolit?? .452 boolit?? What would the experts do here?? The one case I did just neck up was in steps. 348 to 358 to 410 to 452. Sure made it look ugly for a bit there, kinda like a snake swallerin' an egg but it came out ok I guess. Will definitely need final fire forming. Also gotta get in touch with C.B. but he ain't answering his phone. He will call me one of these days tho as he is Hunter Ed. leader and wants me to teach again this year. JW

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

C.B. lets the messages build up until it won't take any more and no one can get through on his phone.

Have an interesting tale about OLD primers when we talk.

Can also supply some boooolits. Have some RCBS .405gr and LBT 355gr, both gas checked and sized as I recall about .459.

I won't be using them and your welcome to them for fireforming if you can use them.

If not, I'll melt them down and the gas check will be wasted.

I don't have either of the molds now as I've gone with the 465gr WFN and see no reason to be changing any time soon.

If your thinking about the chamber cast, it was just garden verity sulfur he was using.

CDOC

[Idaho Mule]

CDOC, Thanks!! would definitely be interested in those boolits. Yes, I know about C.B. and his phone. I got the nice privilege of being called in to work today. Made for a long day but should help paying for a set of dies. JW

[Ed in North Texas]

I'm sorry I didn't get to this thread sooner. To hopefully help someone save some cash, I'd like to remind folks that BTSniper will order CH-4D dies with a discount for Cast Boolit members.

Idaho, good luck with that RB. I love those I have - the first one bit me with the Black Powder bug (though I haven't given up on less aromatic propellants in my newer firearms).

Ed

[Idaho Mule]

curator, thanks for your help. As close as I can measure, my barrel slug is measuring right at .463. From the info I can find, I want a bullet weighing between 385 gr. to 400+ gr. to get the proper length. I believe as they were loaded in Viking land they were shooting about 385 gr. I have another quandry tho. Upon measuring some brass today, I find the case head, just above the rim, measures about .515 for the 11.7 x56. My .348 brass is measuring right at .545. That seems like quite a bit of smunching to me. CDOC has recomended Imperial sizing lube to me but I wonder if that will be slick enough to swage those cases down that far?? I reckon I will try it and see what happens, wont be the first time I drove a round peg thru a square hole. Thanks again for the help. JW

[Chicken Thief]

Dont do it!
Use 45-90 with the rim trimmed slightly.
No huss no fuss.
If a 45-70 reamer has been there then no need to trim the rim.
Over 3-5 BP shootings the case will swell around the base and fit wil be perfect.

Here is a pic to show the minute differences
Top is a standard 45-70 case
Middle is a converted and fireformed 45-70 case
Bottom is an original case from 1914
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0011151.jpg


If y'all wants to spend big bucks who am i to argue, but you just might save a bunch by trying it with a 45-70 case first.

PS. I havent got a sizing die at all!
With BP theres no need.

[Roundball]

The bore on my Danish RB was slugged and sent off to a gent who would measure and keep slug if SASE was enclosed. It turns out the grove diameter was .464. It was possible to use the Lee 405gr. HB bullet to make usable reloads with brass from Huntington Die. This was some years back and the brass was a closeout. Used C&H dies who confirmed that there was a multitude of chambers in these old guns. Used 5744 data for 45-70 and got good accuracy. Did not proceed beyond the point of getting the rifle shooting.

[curator]

Buffalo Arms offers the correctly sized "11.7X51R" (or X56R if that is what you have) brass for a very reasonable price. Using .45-70 or .45-90 cases guarantees the "bulge" forward of the case head. In the old days (when correct brass was not easy to find) we all wrapped plastic electrical tape around the case heads on .45-70 brass and made do. That pretty much worked but case splits were common. Why not just get the right stuff to begin with? I have had my "11-7X56R" (Buffalo arms) brass for several years. I do not resize, only replace the primer and reload with close to groove diameter slugs over black powder or SR4759 and Cream of Wheat filler. Cases seem to last forever, unlike my improvised .45-70 brass. Done this way, you don't need any dies, just a way to de-cap and reprime.

[Idaho Mule]

Thanks again to all that have replied. For all reccomending 45-70 or 45-90 brass I don't feel comfortable with that method because my previous experience with this rifle has proved to split 3 out of 5 shot--- that's pretty high loss. I will go with reforming 348 brass I believe because the base (not rim) should be able to be swaged down to fit my chamber. THAT is what I need the dies for. If the 348 rim is too large in diameter it should be nothing to turn them down to fit. I am hoping for, as curator and others suggest, to not have to re-size (other than neck) once cases are finally formed. Ed, wish I would have known that sooner but what is done is done, I do appreciate the info tho and will remember. JW

[Chicken Thief]

Thanks again to all that have replied. For all reccomending 45-70 or 45-90 brass I don't feel comfortable with that method because my previous experience with this rifle has proved to split 3 out of 5 shot--- that's pretty high loss. I will go with reforming 348 brass I believe because the base (not rim) should be able to be swaged down to fit my chamber. THAT is what I need the dies for. If the 348 rim is too large in diameter it should be nothing to turn them down to fit. I am hoping for, as curator and others suggest, to not have to re-size (other than neck) once cases are finally formed. Ed, wish I would have known that sooner but what is done is done, I do appreciate the info tho and will remember. JW

You will be dissapointed there mate!
That kind of cold brass deformation needs special dies and a hydraulic setup in the 6-8 ton~40000-50000lbs range. If you anneal i suspect you could cut the numbers by half but a dead soft base, kind of defies the whole deal.

[Chicken Thief]

I tried to make/form .30m1 out of .223 and lets just say i split a sizing die and made a mess with a 4 ton setup.

[Idaho Mule]

Gonna have to wait till dies get here, then do some measuring. I am paying attention here Chicken Thief. I do know a very good machinist and if necessary I could have him cut me a custom forming die and smash 'em thru a 20 ton press. This little project could prove to be interesting for sure. Once again I appreciate everyones input. Hang tough and I will keep you updated as she progress's.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Ya, it would be a shame to let a barrel that nice set on the wall unused!

And, as good as Imperial sizing wax is, and yes it is good, if you were forming other then at the loading bench where STP is a pit because of how hard it is to clean up, you could use the STP at the press and then just drop the formed brass into actone or laquer thinner which will cut the STP really fast.

Then good HOT water and heavy soap and the brass should be good to go to the next step.

I do not know if the Imperial sizing wax is better then the STP, but know it (the Imperial) has taken care of my forming tasks and is easy to clean. Should do a side by side to see which is the better for heavy forming.

CDOC

[Chicken Thief]

IM i just had a http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Blandet/Smilere/Brainfart.gif

A "but plug" that fills the primer hole might be in order?
Sizing the case bottom that much might disturb dimentions severly.

[skeettx]

I use a wrist pin from a diesel for my form dies to make 43 Spanish from 348 Win.
Makes the shop press GRUNT!!
Please be careful not to split your new dies
Mike

[Idaho Mule]

Chicken Thief, funny thing happened today, I had that same brain fart!! That brass is gonna have to move and the primer pocket and flash hole is the only place available. Hmmm, and the plot thickens. Then I would have to re-bore the primer pocket and flash hole. Can definitely see why you are so strongly recommending 45-70 brass. Maybe I should saw one of my 348 brass in two, lengthwise, and see how thick the web is and get a better idea. Sheettex, thanks for that hint!! I can come up with a wrist pin with no problem, do you re-call which diesel engine this pin was from?? or did he just machine it to his own specs?? CDOC, keep close tabs on me here as this could be interesting. So far I haven't busted anything and I hope that doesn't happen or I'll have to tell the folks all about a North Idaho brushfit. JW

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Mule,

I still think fire forming is still the way to go!

I'd suggest a duplex fire forming load, sparked by a good and lively Mag. primer behind about 21 grains of Bullseye which should be enough to get the 30 grains of Reddot up and running. :kidding: [smilie=w: :awesome:

This should produce enough pressure to shove the cream of wheat or corn meal out the end of the barrel, AND closely form the brass to your chamber as well as fill in any voids your origional brass might have, such as primer pockets.

By filling the primer pocket in this way, it should leave a clear mark where the firing pin should be, which will save you the step of center punching before drilling a new primer pocket.

Ya might check to make sure the firing pin remains in place after each fire forming round.

If you find the brass to not have a void free consistancy for the new primer pocket, ya might need to up the Bullseye charge by about 1.3 to 1.7gr. That should smooth out the brass flow just fine.

I'd also recommend using Starline brass as many folk on the forums say it is heavier/thicker then other brass, which would be and advantage during the brass flow part of the forming.

Good possibility the comments about the thick Starline brass are true, considering the quality of info/suggestions/recommendations always found on the forums.

ALWAYS Glad to help a fellow shooter from Ideeeeeho.

Remember, If ya need any more suggestions or some Bullseye, I'm just a phone call away. [smilie=1:

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

P.S. Mule,

It might be wise to do a chamber case between each of the fire forming loads just to make sure there isn't any unexpected increase in chamber size.

Should that happen, cut your charge of cream of wheat/corn meal by about a third ? +/- ?

Ya might need to play with that a bit.

CDOC

[Chicken Thief]

Errr, why not just shoot like normal?
Even at BP pressures the brass will deform and fill the chamber, after all that is what we are discussing right?

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Chicken Thief,

The Mule is hearing ya and the rest of the folks, and I am sure is processing all the comments, likely not including my last couple, and working towards a solution.

However, ya may need to give this North Ideeeeho mule skinner a bit more time then regular folk to understand all the loooong words in the advice given. :mrgreen: [smilie=1:

Keep it coming, he's slow but he's hearing ya.

Very Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[skeettx]

OK, one last Nugget of JOY,
Take a 45-70 GREEN box Remington factory cartridge.
Place one wrap of Scotch Tape around the base above the rim.
See if the cartridge will chamber, It may :)
Shoot the cartridge, I would bet it will NOT split
Mike

p.s. Do you have a 348 case that has been made up for this rifle? If so, will it chamber in the gun?
Yes? Please measure the base diameter. I have one 43 Spanish that a 348 reamer was used to open up the base of the chamber so un-swaged 348 cases can be used. Folks did that sometimes in the past.

Here is a picture of one of my 11.7 Danish rounds using Remington 45-70brass

http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j452/skeettx/MVC-018S-1_zps013a5afe.jpg

[Ed in North Texas]

Just to add my $0.02 USD to the pot, it would seem that Mule has a problem with the .45-70/90 brass route with a good reason to be a bit shy about it. He thinks .348 Win brass reformed is the best way to go for him.

Unless he just wants to take up the challenge of reforming the .348 brass himself, it might be no more expensive (if additional tooling is needed) and much simpler to buy the Buffalo Arms reformed brass.

Of course we all know that $0.02 USD isn't worth spit any longer.

Ed

[Idaho Mule]

Ed, thanks for the reply. You and most others that have replied are correct about total cost in this project concerning my brass issue. I checked Buffalo Arms cat. the other day and their price is just under 2$ per case. That is pretty steep but may be the best way to go in the long run. What I don't like about the 45-70 route is the bulge just above the base, I just don't like it. This week has been tough at work with "emergencies, overtime, etc..." and I haven't had time at home to do much at all. I hope to have time in the morning to at least get the rifle back to the front of the safe. I do think I will split one of the 348 cases with a hack saw and see how the base look. I know that I have to lose .030" in diameter, maybe I could turn it from the outside?? or combo of swage and turn?? Heck, I don't know, but I will do more looking and studying. JW

[Chicken Thief]

Here is a pic of a 348

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0011163.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0011162.jpg

[Chicken Thief]

An original Danish Arsenal case is .513" directly above the rim the sliced .348 is .544". Just above the bottom the inside measurement is .458". .03" of material displacement is an awfull lot but i do indeed wish you the best of luck.

[Chicken Thief]

I just turned the .348 down to .513" above the rim.
There is not much metal left!

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0011165.jpg

I know the turning is a little askew but compare the two sides and then compare case thickness abowe. It's clear to see that a weak point will be made unless the base is swaged down to.

[Idaho Mule]

Chicken Thief, thank you so much for your help and advice, I very much appreciate it. At this point in the game I think I am going to order some brass from Buffalo Arms. That seems like the best route right now. Trust me, I would dearly love to go the swelled out 45-70 route but those split cases just bother me, maybe I am to much of a perfectionest. Regardless, I do greatly appreciate your, and everyone else's input here. The pics of the 348 brass cut in half did it for me, turning down the outside is not a way to go, and swaging them down is going to move a lot of material right where I don't want it to be. Again, thank you. JW

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Hey Mule, You haven't thanked me for my fire forming tips yet.

Is that forth coming?

CDOC

[Idaho Mule]

CDOC, sorry about that sir. I do thank you for that info, sounds like would definitely FIRE-form something!! I especially liked the tip about measuring chamber dimensions between fire-forming loads. How far would one have to go to pick up all the pieces to measure the now expanded chamber?? We will have to get together again soon. I should have called you yesterday as Charlies' 10 week trap shoot started. We will be at Troy/Deary GC for the next several Sundays. JW

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Hey Mule,

Wish the Troy Deary GC shot other then Sundays!!!!!!! I like trap, but seems everything is mostly on Sunday.

I tried to get enough interest a few years back to get a 50' gallery .22 handgun shoot started - slow/timed/rapid - but didn't stir up enough interest to go to the club about it.

Even some postal matches with air guns would be good. Those could be done in my shop even.

Let me know if you need so extra Bullseye. :mrgreen:

CDOC

[chevyiron420]

I have had a Danish RB for many years and it's a great rifle and tons of fun. Making ammo for my rifle is very simple. I use only Remington 45/70 cases because they don't split on the first firing. I wrap a little half width scotch tape around the case head to help it center for the first firing. My groove dia. is .463 and I use a 405 grain lee mold that i lapped one cavity out. My rifle will except full length 45/70 cases with a .463 boolit. Reloading is easy with my lee 45/70 dies by placing a 5\8 inch spacer between the shell holder and the bottom of the die. That way it only sizes enough to hold the boolit, no expander needed. Flare the mouth with a lee universal die. The 45/70 seater seats and crimps perfectly.

I have casted my chamber and its just a long tapered hole. No step for the end of the case, so in a way the dia. of the boolit will determine the length of your case. The bigger the boolit seated in the case the sooner the case will come tight. You dont want the mouth of the case pinched tight in the chamber. Mine is ok with full length cases, yours may, or may not be ok.

I would not bother with 348 cases. It seems to me they are about .030 oversize at the base and thats a lot of material to move and would probably require some lathe turning and forming dies that just aren't necessary.

[Artful]

Pardon for interruption, but I have a memory - I think it was from Maj. George Nonte's book on case forming that I read back in the 70's.
As I recall he was stuck in Europe after WW2 and had time on his hands and rounded up a bunch of different Ordinance to play with - made up Bullets by putting lead in cases and having a die made to make it into bullets and stuff.

Anyway I remember him saying he had this same situation (same case maybe?) and he had some copper tubing he cut and dropped over the outside of the too small case
and when he fired formed it locked the copper band onto the case and supported the smaller case.

Sort of like a cigar band around the cigar.

Anyway this would be sort of like your tape around the base solution but would permanently stay on the case providing support.

Hope this is helpful.

[Idaho Mule]

Art, thanks for the input and I can actually see how that could work. Thanks to everyone else that has helped me here too.Time for an update now tho. I recieved the dies from CH last week, Friday. Have also decided to follow advice of "curator" and just get some proper sized brass from Buffalo Arms. I have had good luck with them before so expect a reasonable turn-around as long as they have it in stock, will place order tomorrow afternoon once home from work. I have been looking at moulds and cannot find the LEE 405 HB, at least what I see in Midway and Natchez do not state they are HB, just says 457-405-F. Anyway, I am forging onward, steady by jerks. Got to many other projects going but it sure keeps life interesting. JW PS, anyone need some .348 brass? or should I just start looking for a 71? Always wanted one anyway. JW

[Chicken Thief]

The 459-405-HB has Lee sku. 90268

And the key is 459 not 457!!!

[Idaho Mule]

Chicken Thief, thanks again sir. Got the 459-405-hb ordered today. Bad news is that Buffalo Arms is out of stock on the brass, I put some on back order anyway. If the mould shows up sooner, which it will, I'll cast some up and try it with my existing 45-70 brass....might even try that taping the base trick just so I can shoot it. The casting will be trial and error as I have never used Lee's aluminum molds yet, just Lyman and RCBS. JW

[I'll Make Mine]

The casting will be trial and error as I have never used Lee's aluminum molds yet, just Lyman and RCBS. JW

The biggest difference you'll notice is that the aluminum mold heats up and cools off faster. I'd never cast a bullet in my life (though I'd watched it done, thirty years ago) and started getting good boolits from my Lee molds in just a few minutes after only a dozen or so rejects, even with a primitive setup (camp stove, no thermometer, and a bent spoon for a ladle).

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Hey Mule,

The aluminum molds are very easy to cast with. The biggest problem with the Lee single and two cavity molds is quality of design and construction,

Treat them very gently or the hooky way they align will soon be out of wack and mis-alignment be the normal factor and then they will need to be put into alignment by hand to assure they are ready to go.

It is still a Lee product, but their 6 cavity molds are a huge distance better then the single and two cavity type.

Guess I'd only buy one of the single or two cavity molds if I had VERY!!! limited need or wanted to run a trial with almost no money invested.

Of course, this is just the Ol'Coot's opinion, but I have been there and done that.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Chicken Thief]

Hey Mule,

The aluminum molds are very easy to cast with. The biggest problem with the Lee single and two cavity molds is quality of design and construction,

Treat them very gently or the hooky way they align will soon be out of wack and mis-alignment be the normal factor and then they will need to be put into alignment by hand to assure they are ready to go.

It is still a Lee product, but their 6 cavity molds are a huge distance better then the single and two cavity type.

Guess I'd only buy one of the single or two cavity molds if I had VERY!!! limited need or wanted to run a trial with almost no money invested.

Of course, this is just the Ol'Coot's opinion, but I have been there and done that.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

Then Sir please enlighten us ignorants as to where a carbon copy of the 1873 Springfield bullet mould can be bought?
Remember it is a hollow base!

[curator]

Chicken Thief,

Lee Precision sells their .459-405 bullet mould directly as do several middlemen here in the US. While the bullet is billed as a "hollow base" the recess in the base is not designed to aid in expansion of the base into the rifling. It was put there to get a certain bullet shape and size to weigh 405 grains, not more. It has no other function. It is useful for tucking the tail of paper patching when modifying these bullets for larger bore diameters. My Lee mould casts at .462 from nearly pure lead and I paper patch them up to .476 diameter to shoot in my Martini Henry 577-450. I also shoot these bullets in my Danish Rolling Block rifle with good results using black powder. This bullet is "almost" a carbon copy of the original US 1873, .45-70-405 bullet from Frankfort Arsenal which by the way was swagged, not cast. (another reason for the base recess was to force lead into the swagging die)

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Thanks Curator!

Chicken Thief, Sorry I can't help with an answer to your question, as I've never had the need to cast Hollow base boolits.

My comments were more to inform Idaho Mule as to the level of quality he would see in the single and double cavity Lee molds where he has only used the Lyman and RCBS molds.

I have found Lyman molds to cast good boolits, but to have a real problem with shaking loose during use. Almost like you need a wrench or screw driver in one hand and the mold in the other, While RCBS molds seem to be of much higher quality as far as not shaking apart.

However, both the Lyman and the RCBS are light years ahead of the single and double cavity Lee molds in the integrity department.

Where the Lee shines is the ease of casting in aluminum mold blocks.

I have both Lyman and RCBS molds, years back some of the small Lee molds, and currently a few 6 cavity Lee molds which have steel to steel points on which they align.

But the best molds I have used are the aluminum molds by LBT or Bruce of BABor when he was still making his great molds.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Idaho Mule]

Ok guys, we're back on track here. My LEE 459-405 HB showed up yesterday in the mail. I scrubbed it nice and clean this evening and looked it over pretty well. There are 2 tiny burrs on the edge of the sprue plate that I need to clean up. After that I will give it a sparing lube job and make some boolits. At this time I have no sizing die but I don't think I will need one. I do have brass ordered from Buffalo Arms but it is back ordered, so I will follow Chicken Thief's, and others' advice and use some 45-70 brass for now. Have been thinking of using 20:1 alloy, but will probably start with some 70- WW + 30- pure lead (+ a bit of tin) because that's what I have made up right now. JW

[skeettx]

GREAT, let us know how all this works out for you
My 11.7 is a very good shooter with 457483 and a Hornady
gas check.

Mike

[torpedoman]

CDOC, thanks for posting this. I am the guilty individual with this rifle and appreciate everyone's input on it. As Crusty said it is an exceptional rifle having been cared for very well over it's long career. This rifle was a wedding gift to my wife and I from her uncle. He was a packer/outfitter for many years in the state of Idaho. His lodge/headquarters was at the confluence of the North Fork and Little North Fork Clearwater River, now under the water of Dworshack Reservoir. The rifle means a great deal to my wife and I but not as a wallhanger. It is in such fine shape and has so much character it just needs to keep on working in our opinions. Hence this search. I am sure I can reform .348 brass, I just need to get the proper dies from Buffalo Arms and then start casting and loading for it. A few yrs back I did slug the barrel and it measured right at .458 if I remember correctly. Still have the slug so I just gotta find it and confirm. I know for a fact that mine likes to split the 45-70 brass so not gonna use it, I will reform. I may order those dies for my birthday and start in on it. I know that you guys on this site are a wealth of information so now is probably a good time to get going on it. Thanks all for the input. JW
you may wish to call dave at CH4D they will have your dies and maybe as cheap as you can get them anywhere quick guess is they would be in the 83 dollar group.try this--http://www.ch4d.com/

[Ed in North Texas]

you may wish to call dave at CH4D they will have your dies and maybe as cheap as you can get them anywhere quick guess is they would be in the 83 dollar group.try this--http://www.ch4d.com/

If I weren't in a huge rush for the dies, BT Sniper on this site will order CH-4D stuff at a 10% discount for site members. It might take a few weeks, depends on when he last send an order in. It's another option. The CH-4D dies are excellent dies.

[skeettx]

Might even try 45-75 dies for a neck sizing die :)
http://www.midwayusa.com/find?dimensionids=12440

[Idaho Mule]

Guess I better update this a bit. Mould is here, I got it up and working I think. Anyway I have cast a few boolits with it. I had brass ordered from Buffalo Arms and got some. Trouble was the brass I got was for the shorter 11.7x51R. After a call to BA they said to send the brass back and they would make it right. So, I am still waiting on brass, sure it will be here soon. I am also thinking of loading this fine old rifle with black powder, and I truely believe that by the time it is all said and done I will do that. Thanks all for the help and inspiration. JW

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Still think a good duplex load sparked with a bounty of Bullseye is the way to go.

That will take care of any needed fireforming or anything else which may need expanding! :mrgreen:

Black Power, :confused: :confused: would make a person think you still live in North Ideeeeeeho or maybe North Montaaaaana.

Bet your phone is still 2 cans and a string. :bigsmyl2: [smilie=l: :kidding:

You going to make the G.S. in Lewiston this weekend?

Very Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Idaho Mule]

CDOC, yeah I'll be there I'm sure, most likely on Sat. as I have company on Sunday. So ya think that BE under some 3f would get things rolling ok? That mold I got is dropping my boolits at .460 out of 20:1. The bore slugs at .463. Do you think I need to beat up a dope-smoker and steal his rolling paper to patch these?? or just try them as is?? They are hollow base. JW

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

WOW JW, your in unknown country for me.

I thought the hollow base as to allow the boolit to flair/expand out to fill the bore. But have never been there or tried that. And Yes, the BE will take care of about any problem if you use enough of it! Use enough BE and you won't need the BP!

By the way, look'in for a 10/22, have a friend look'in for a Redhawk .44 and know where there is a S&W Classic 629.

Of course can't imagine anyone wanting a Bean Can Gun (S&W), at least anyone in their right mind! :kidding:

Maybe see ya on Saturday. I'll watch for the Big hat!

CDOC

[Artful]

By the way, look'in for a 10/22, have a friend look'in for a Redhawk .44 and know where there is a S&W Classic 629.

Of course can't imagine anyone wanting a Bean Can Gun (S&W), at least anyone in their right mind! :kidding:


Having both a Horse Pistol (Redhawk) and carry cannon (S&W) - I'll say I might not be in my right mind but
I'm always in fine fashion.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Love it Artful!!!! :mrgreen:

Have a friend who is a B&C fan, and I have no end of fun razz'in him about his B&Cs

Don't tell him, but they are #2 on my list of go to handguns at least in the Wheelguns.

"B&C" came about because of the S&W canners of fruits and veggies, so the S&W just became B&C (bean can gun) so I'd have something to be on Jack's case about.

You should hear him when I talk about the ripples in the barrels left over from the tin cans. [smilie=w: :bigsmyl2:

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Idaho Mule]

I GOT THE BRASS!!!! And I got home in time to cast some boolits, not many, so pictures will be coming soon. JW

[Artful]

Cool Beans

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Mule, Was it your wife that said you had, "some Brass". Was she refering to head hardness or thickness or malibility or????

CDOC

Hurry up with thos photographs.

[Artful]

Guess soon is a variable time frame

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Remember Artful, this is ideeeeeho.

"Mule" may be out in the back 40, sleeping under a hay stack. [smilie=1: :-D

CDOC

[Artful]

Idaho - he may be a popsicle

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

You could be correct Artful. He lives on the North side of Moscow mountain so it could be a bit deep over there. I can still see snow as we speak, but mostly in drifts or on North slopes. Except for the big piles which slide off my shop roof, snow is mostly gone.

CDOC

[Budbax]

I was given a Danish RB for Xmas the first year my wife and I were married. It came with a set of RCBS dies (neck-sizing only, I believe), and a bunch of brass with "SMI 43 BASIC", "B.E.L.L. 43 SPAIN BASE", and "B.E.L.L. 375 H&H" as head stamps. The rifle will chamber .45/70 rounds and will chamber all of the empties. I made a bore and chamber cast, the bore was .458, and the chamber had no discernable step and I could not determine the length. The rifle has been altered due to the danish marks indicating as such, and was originally of the rimfire caliber. I have the Lee 459-405HB mold, any ideas on getting this beautiful old warhorse operational?

[skeettx]

Just buy a box of Green Box Remington 45-70 factory ammo and shoot it
http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/376119/remington-express-ammunition-45-70-government-405-grain-jacketed-soft-point-box-of-20
You will notice it is "For use in all rifles"
That means it is loaded mild for the Springfield Rifle.
Then use the dies to reload that brass.
Can you please tell us what is printed on top of the size die.
A photo would be great
http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j452/skeettx/MVC-026S.jpg

Mike

[Idaho Mule]

Just hang on guys!! Jeez, I been working my tail off at work and am tired when I get home these days. The project is in full swing, trust me. Even had wife take a few pics on Sunday afternoon of freshly pan-lubed boolits. They are the Lee 459-405's cast of 70/30 (what I had on hand). CDOC aught to love this, I used my first re-formed 348 brass to make my "cutter out of the lube thingy", worked great after a little bit of a resizing. Anyway, I do finally have some live loads made up and am working on a full report, complete with pics and everything. I sure hope some of the rounds hit the target. JW

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

JW,

If ya use enough Bullseye, something WILL hit the target! [smilie=1:

CDOC

[Artful]

I sure hope some of the rounds hit the target. JW

In the old days, it was vitally important to have the correct pencil of appropriate caliber to insure your round count was accurate.:wink:
:kidding:

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Love it Artful!

Need to be really careful with some of these North Ideeeeho guys, likely we should demand certified photographs of any groups, witnessed by not less the 5 other North Ideeeeho shooters.

CDOC

[Budbax]

OK, folks, here are some pictures of the dies... I also slugged the bore with one of the bullets out of the Lee 459-405-HB mold, it measured .456 after exiting the bore, across the flats, one land and one groove. I believe this is what's called "5R" rifling... funny, one of the things touted about my .300BLK bbl was that it had this same rifling! 640696407064071640726407364074

[Budbax]

I have some Trail Boss, IMR3031, IMR4198, Pyrodex CTG, Bullseye, as possible candidates. I calculated 16 grns of TB to start, if I go that route. Any ideas on the others?

[skeettx]

405 grain lead 29 grains of 4198

COTW 10th Edition

BudBax, your de-capping stem block a view of the imprint on the top
of the sizing die.
Any better picture?
Looks like a full length sizing die

Made in year N, same year as my 218 Mashburn Bee dies :)

Mike

[Budbax]

The die is stamped "11.7x51R FL N RCBS". I didn't know the "N" was a date code, would RCBS's web site have that data available? The original price tag on the die box says $138.00! I guess I need to find COTW... I have an old copy of Nonte's "The Home Guide To Cartridge Conversions", it has load data for a 300 grn using 24 grns of 4759, whatever that is... IMR? I also goofed, I have IMR4895, not IMR4198! Knew there was a 4 and an 8 in there somewhere :o

[Artful]

I think the N is die group code not date code - I have RCBS with actual dates on the box.

https://shop.rcbs.com/WebConnect/MainServlet?storeId=webconnect&catalogId=webconnect&langId=en_US&screenlabel=index&action=CategoryDisplay&categoryId=C09

[skeettx]

It is a date code. Fred used them before the actual dates were used.

RCBS date stamped dies virtually from the beginning when Fred was making them in the back of his dad's laundry in Oroville. They just started numerically dating them somewhere around 1966-68. Before that they were alphabetically date stamped

Mike

[Budbax]

It may be a Full-length resize, but I can't full length size the brass that came with the rifle. Maybe they were meant to resize 45-70?? I may try to as I have a few empties I can sacrifice. I also bought a full bag of Norma .45 Basic (.45-120) cases at Ca
belas out of their Bargain Cave, I can trim it to length and try...

[Idaho Mule]

Ok guys, sorry this has taken so long but here we go with some pics.

66039
boolits cast and being pan-lubed in my makeshift outfit
66040
same as above
66041
close up of above stuff
66042
the rifle in question,left side
66043
same only right side
66044
close up left side of reciever
66045
tang
66046
stamp on top of butt stock
66048
where the boolit goes in
66049
details of load and wife is yelling at me

[Idaho Mule]

Aaaand some more of above. Probably shoulda called CDOC to verify group but wife won't let me lie anyway.

66052
the boolit going in!!
66054
Kabooom
66056
the target, these were shot at a range of 25 yds.
66057
close up of final results, notice CDOC, that 2 of 'em (3 & 5) are in the same hole!!

[Chicken Thief]

The die is stamped "11.7x51R FL N RCBS". I didn't know the "N" was a date code, would RCBS's web site have that data available? The original price tag on the die box says $138.00! I guess I need to find COTW... I have an old copy of Nonte's "The Home Guide To Cartridge Conversions", it has load data for a 300 grn using 24 grns of 4759, whatever that is... IMR? I also goofed, I have IMR4895, not IMR4198! Knew there was a 4 and an 8 in there somewhere :o

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Blandet/Smilere/demotivationals_46.jpg

Did you pay that?

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Thief,

He must have!!! Considering he couldn't afford the lead to make whole bullets.

Mule, How many bullets do you need to short on lead to make one more bullet?

Or does the shortage of lead in the base of those bullets vary from bullet to bullet?

If it would help, you could bring those half bullets by and maybe I can scare up some zinc or something to fill the base with. :kidding:

If ya follow my advice about using a good duplex load with Bullseye, the pressures should hammer the zinc in tight enough that it won't fall out most of the time.

By the way, did you have your wife plow all the snow back before you shot those photographs? Ya can't be that snow free over on the North side of the mountain! Just CAN'T be!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

P.S. And please make up your mind, was it 2 or 5 yards?

[skeettx]

Well done, well done
THANKS for the report and pictures
Mike

[Budbax]

I will hopefully get to the range this week and try my loads. The 138.00 price tag is an old one, I did NOT pay that... Will try and post the results, and which load was the best. I hadn't cast any boolits in about 20 years, but once I started, it all came back to me! Hopefully not by way of a ricochet!

[Budbax]

Well, the dies will work on the WW and RP 45-70 brass... It will full length resize it. Now I am not so sure about what to do when I get around to shooting the other rounds I reloaded. Just neck size and go on??

[skeettx]

Yes, neck size and go on,
The pressures are light
The cases go in the same gun
Some anal folks always orient the ww or the RP at the 12 o'clock position
:)
Mike

[Budbax]

I think orienting the cartridge IS a bit too anal for me... :veryconfu

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

I tried that one time, and I think that at least for most of us and the equipment we use, we will be hard pressed to see any positive results. I didn't at least.

For most of us likely the best results are found in proper load development by which we determine the powders and bullet favored by the firearm we happen to have in hand.

I'll even go so far as to say that primer choice, as long as we have positive results from the brand in use, will make little difference during the early stages of load development.

Efforts to find the best primer - brand-type - are much like adjusting bullet seating depth to find the harmonics "sweet spot" of a firearm, best done only after we have established a solid base line load by which to judge the results of such changes.

Not saying that always placing the loaded brass in a repeatable position will not produce positive results, but how can we ever know unless we have a solid and confirmed bench mark by which to make that judgement?

Even then, our firearm may not be of the quality that such changes could show confirmed results one way or the other.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Artful]

Actually one of the best groups I ever saw shot was with a single case reloaded on the shooting bench - but I just don't care enough to do it that slowly

[Roundball]

I happened to turn up the letter from O.H. McKagen who would measure samples from slugging the bore. The Danish RB had a bore diameter of .4454 and a grove diameter of .4642. Grove depth was .0096. This measurement was done in 2004. Sent at the same time, the 1889 Trapdoor sample measured .4521 for the bore and .4624 for the grove diameter. The Groove depth was .0051. It was suggested that the same .464 bullets be used in both rifles. The Lee hollow base 405gr. bullet did well in both rifles in the limited experiments. Mr. McKagen no longer offers this measuring service. I purchased the Dane cheaply because the previous owner wanted to use it in cowboy matches but found the 45-70 cases were splitting.