A Gentlemanly Discussion On Levergun Antiquity Restoration

[Just Duke]

Most I have spoke with feel that and old rifle should be left in the condition it was purchased.
Not I........
If I had 2 or 3 1881's I would surely, completely restore them back to full function and curb appeal.

I would have no problem with;
New stocks
Draw filing, polishing and reblueing the barrel and magazine tube. (Some pits might need to be welded up)
Barrel relining
Receiver draw filed, end cap and butt plate, polished and case colored.
New magazine spring and various springs that lack tension.

I would like to keep this discussion civil considering the topic is very controversial.
After all. The GTO and Impala Bat Mobile I use to own I surely hope someone is taking as good as care of it as I did. i.e. I painted them and restored them. ;)


Edit;
This discussion is for personal use/ownership and not for resale with a monetary gain or fraudulently misrepresenting a restored rifle as an original.

[Dave Bulla]

I'm with ya as long as it's done right. I don't like it when people go on and on about "patina" and "original condition" or "great condition FOR IT'S AGE". All of which usually translates in my book to "wasn't taken care of". If I can get by with just a good cleaning and "refreshing" of the finish, I might elect to leave it at that. I do love a gun with character provided it functions properly. If a gun is broken, I have no problem with the idea of having it repaired. Things I don't care to see are high gloss hot blued antique guns, polyurethane or other modern high gloss finishes on the stocks and of course the bubba'd wood sanded down an eighth of an inch below the metal. Also don't like extra holes drilled in a gun.

But on the other hand, if it's not my gun, it's not my call until the time when it's offered for sale and I'm a prospective buyer. At that time, I have the right to the opinion that the gun is worth a lot or a little. That any work done is of good quality or poor. I also have the right to walk away from the sale and the seller has the right to set the price.

This should be an interesting discussion.

[OuchHot!]

I wish that I were in a position to have to make these kind of decisions...such rifles are scarce around here. For me, it would depend on overall condition and provenance or history. A friend has a sharps that has been in the family since new. I would not touch the outside as every ding and rust spot was put there by family. I got accross to him that he needs to leave the d#4@ smokeless alone and shoot it like it was intended. He has added better sights without drilling or modification and the old girl is well on her way to hunting again. A rifle that has no known history and is dilapidated, I would have no problem with relining, restocking, whatever was required to make it shoot and hunt. I don't like to see old classics embelished, however. Just brought to where they once were. just me...others do as you please.

[BCRider]

For me there's usually a pretty obvious line between desireable "patina" and damage sufficient to suggest that it's OK to re-build and re-finish. I'm all for a nice looking buffing away of the blueing from rubbing in holsters or from gloves and hands over the years. But grossly scuffed, dinged, chipped and other larger amounts of non typical damage says that it's time to provide some restorative lovin'.

SO WHERE ARE THE PICTURES ! ! ! ! ! ! ! :D

[Just Duke]

Here's some really nice rifles owned by a member here I would surely restore.
Here we go with a chronological time line.
Back when these were purchased they surely didn't look like this with the as some refer to as patina with character.
I roll my eyes at Hollywoodland westerns that try and remake history in the directors illusional perception of what the old west was like.
The older movies seem to be the worst.
What really irks me is the western where the town looks like it's 130 years old and all run down.
The town would have been new and freshly built i.e. "Boom Town"
The town would look more like the town in the movie the Kevin Costner OPEN RANGE.

The other that I find silly is the worn out clothing, saddles and gun belts that look like they were run through a cement mixer full of broken granite.
Here's the "documented" first thing a cowboy would have done. When they got back from a cattle drive or a land crossing.
BATH FIRST! whew! Go into a Dry Goods Store and purchased new duds and go out behind the building and burned all their STINKY! clothes including gun belt and holster.
The indigenous personel of the mid 1800 would have been continually upgrading just as often as our computer technology has been upgrading over the last 15 years. The Old West as they say only lasted 30 years so factor in most back then lived 36 years on an average would give a rifle a 15 year old patina. Not a 125 year old patina.
The cowboy as we call it prided themselves on their gear as it was pretty much all they owned or will ever own......
So back on topic after a brief history synopsis.
The rifles would have not looked like this when they were being used in that time line.
Also note that their pretty much devoid of all bluing and not fair well during a sudden down pour. Wall hanger yes. But not serviceable for the field.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l101/Jon_K_2006/OldMarlins003.jpg

[BCRider]

This is where our definition of "damage" vs "patina" comes into play.

I'd have to see the guns in person but those rifles look to be in great original condition with the sort of classic well loved wear that suggests simply keeping them in good repair and correctly oiled. In these cases the wood is still in good condition and look to have been getting their regular annual or so re-coats of finishing oil judging by the warm glow to the wood. Without signs of actual damage from a history of mis-handling for my part I'd leave those ones as is.

EDIT- looking again the Marlin second up from the bottom looks like the forestock has soaked up a pretty good share of black and gun oil. Perhaps some soaking in the proper solvent to leach away the darkening of the gun oil seen on the end grain areas and soaking up the grain and then re-finishing with some coats of tung or boiled linseed to restore it would be as much as I would contemplate for my own part.

[Just Duke]

Trouble is the cost of restoration seems to exceed the value of the firearm, before or after.
Restoration of rifling is important also. A liner can make the bore look shiny but may not shoot worse and not any better then one that looks like a dirt road. I know that from first hand experience.

This is true. Also why I would do most of it myself and you could too. Also cost factor is not played into the equation as this hobby gravitates toward ones with disposable income.
Most don't really feel they need this type of weapons platform. It's more of a want thing. ;)

[fouronesix]

Here's some really nice rifles owned by a member here I would surely restore.


Well, I wasn't around 130-140 years ago so not sure about all that timeline stuff. The non-studio, old photos from that time in the "old West" sure show some oddly matched, ragged clothes and well worn equipment.

As to the pictured rifles... It appears to me that some or maybe all have had at least a little stock refinishing done. And, judging by their outside appearance, they look good to me and I wouldn't do a thing to any of them as to re-finishing. Of course mechanical function and bore condition would be most important considerations for reliable and accurate shooting.

Out-of-place bling can be attractive to the young or inexperienced.

[Just Duke]

If you know who used the firearm, whose scratches wear and history are in it, I'd leave it alone.

You want that fire poker on the top of the pile Duke?


<PANT PANT PANT> Yea and the one below it also. lol
I would have to say I have never experienced the emotion referred to as sentiment. I look at it as metal and wood. lol
It's a tool but no reason it shouldn't look nice. Right?

[Just Duke]

Well, I wasn't around 130-140 years ago so not sure about all that timeline stuff. The non-studio, old photos from that time in the "old West" sure show some oddly matched, ragged clothes and well worn equipment.

As to the pictured rifles... It appears to me that some or maybe all have had at least a little stock refinishing done. And, judging by their outside appearance, they look good to me and I wouldn't do a thing to any of them as to re-finishing. Of course mechanical function and bore condition would be most important considerations for reliable and accurate shooting.

Out-of-place bling can be attractive to the young or inexperienced.

I don't recall mentioning the word "BLING" (an ethic word created by Panders (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pander) in the barrio used to describe jewelry fabricated from smuggled conflict diamonds). Sorry. Respectfully I don't care for these made up words or ever had any fascination with jewelry.
"Levergun Antiquity Restoration" Restoration would mean to make it look they way it did when new or close to. Not augment. ;)

[Just Duke]

I have held the Captain Jack Crawford The Poet Scout, 1873 SRC carbine in my hands with the original scabbard. It's got wear but I think that should be left alone. You can still probably count how many hands have handled it since he last set it down.


Agreed! Truly a piece of iconic history and belongs in a museum for all to see.

[Just Duke]

Duke, Do you do your own color case hardening and bluing? Or does that go to Turnbull or someone else?

Where would one find the original style rifling lands & grooves in a new made liner?

With cut down barrels has anyone restored those? I suppose it could be done.

If someone showed me how to do it once I could replicate the process for the rest of the time I have here and so could you Bill. Post practicing on multiple occasions on scrap though. Bluing is more of a chemistry experiment but case coloring looks like more of an art. I will learn to do both in time.
It's not rocket science. ;)
Original rifling replication would not be any concern. Just as long as it had a new bore.
I'm told Green Mountain barrel's has octagonal contour that parallel the rifles of this period. I can't confirm that though.
The 1881 has what someone told me is a TULIP. The barrel shoulder butts into the action. So this barrel would be custom if it could be made at all hence the barrel liner proposal.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I am of the mind to make an old gun shootable first and the "show" part will just have to wait. Function and accuracy are what matters to me.
Like the 1873 I have pictured. It has taken many a year to get it to the way it is and I like the honest "Been there". Active rust has no place as that is destructive and I am looking to keep on shooting.
But as far as I am concerned when an individual purchases an item it is his to treat and dispose of as he sees fit. Every hunter I know takes his new out of the box or well used just purchased firearm and adapts it to his need. I do think every cowboy out there or eastern hunter did the same even if it was 135 years ago. I have seen (so have you) cuts in the stocks for better grip. Notches that symbolize who knows what. Inicials and names... New sights and different attachments.... So who am I to say what you want to do to your firearm.
Mike in ILL

[Ragnarok]

If it's your rifle...do with it as you please. It's when you sell it that 'restoring' an old rifle will get everybodys attention....do you pass it off as pristene...or restored to pristene? If the restoring owner dies...and the restored firearm gets sold as a excellent original condition arm...who committed the fraud?...Is it a buyer beware thing?

Sort of like bubba'ing up old milsurps...is it a crime to cut-up an old German Mauser?...How about a US Krag?

Then you have the US M1 Garand/carbine/1903 etc....if you replace all the parts that are 'incorrect' with 'correct' pieces...is it still original?...Have you just 'boosted' it?

There is a lot of grey area in this topic!

Personaly..I feel that the owner may do as he wishes...it's how honest the firearms description is if and when it gets sold.

I've looked at refinished/restored guns before with intent to purchase...and the seller/owner could not understand why I didn't see full value plus in the gun....and didn't want to hear that a 'restored' gun was worth half or less it's original condition counterpart.

If you take a $1200 antique Marlin and spend $3000 completely restoring it....it ain't worth $4200!

[Just Duke]

I've looked at refinished/restored guns before with intent to purchase...and the seller/owner could not understand why I didn't see full value plus in the gun....and didn't want to hear that a 'restored' gun was worth half or less it's original condition counterpart.

If you take a $1200 antique Marlin and spend $3000 completely restoring it....it ain't worth $4200!





Well here you go, here are couple rifles a movie actor did by the name of Brad Johnson also a master gunsmith. ;) STORY HERE (http://www.westernshootinghorse.com/jcontent/life-and-style02202011/life-and-style964883477/culture287500358/958-parting-shot-brad-johnson) I would also hazard to say him and others like him are members here also given the knowledge available.
These 1886's 45-70 and 50-110 were at Bass Pro Shop for years here in Vegas and I got to put them together and take them apart.

Not my video by the way. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rZhQiKa8tY&feature=related

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd255/EBRSOPMODS/50%20CALIBERFORUM/1886WINCHESTER1.jpg



http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd255/EBRSOPMODS/50%20CALIBERFORUM/1886WINCHESTER3.jpg



http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd255/EBRSOPMODS/50%20CALIBERFORUM/1886WINCHESTER4.jpg



http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd255/EBRSOPMODS/50%20CALIBERFORUM/1886WINCHESTER7.jpg



http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd255/EBRSOPMODS/50%20CALIBERFORUM/1886WINCHESTER8.jpg

[Awsar]

all depends on the condition for me i love an old slightly worn firearm but if its rusty pitted beat all to heck then ya restore as i have done before.

[HighHook]

I think like said above that you have to see it first then decide. If its yours do as you please. Don't restore then sell as original.
I live in an environment that loves to rust things... So i do a lot of restoration for myself with what i have to work with.

[jdowney]

I have no problem with guys wanting to re-stock, re-blue, re-whatever their rifles, they own them and can do as they please.

However, one should understand that those very same rifles may now be worth less than they paid for them - usually the case with milsurps, I don't know as much about antique levers but I would guess its the same. When something owes most of its value to scarcity, modern improvements reduce that value. A pristine condition original finish rifle is worth vastly more than a refinished one of the same vintage -- because anyone can take an older rifle and refinish it right now, so it is effectively less scarce than all but the worst condition original antique.

If re-sale value and collectability are irrelevant to the owner, then this is a non-issue. I rarely notice that to be the case though, and usually the owner has an unfortunate case of sour grapes when the market does not appreciate his efforts as he believes is warranted.

Personally, I would keep originals original and gussy up the repros. But that is just me.

[fouronesix]

An example of bling in this context is the product after sending one of these off to a well known company in NY and having the metal polished and blued, the stocks refinished and a bunch of case color added to the receiver (that wasn't there to begin with). Simple as that. It can be attractive to some depending on tastes. Also, all this has nothing to do with sending repro lever guns off to the same company in NY for refinish or modification. This pertains to antique guns.

I agree with what Ragnarok posted- "I've looked at refinished/restored guns before with intent to purchase...and the seller/owner could not understand why I didn't see full value plus in the gun....and didn't want to hear that a 'restored' gun was worth half or less it's original condition counterpart.

If you take a $1200 antique Marlin and spend $3000 completely restoring it....it ain't worth $4200!"

[6pt-sika]

My own feeling on the entire issue is this .

I do not "want nor desire" anything thats called "restored , refinished" or any derivative there of !

And agreed it is the person with dollars to answer whether they agree , disagree or are uncommittied . To me an antique firearm or collectible firearm is one that is "original usable or better condition" . I suppose you could call me a student of Marlin's , Parker's and a couple other of the old quality US manufactured guns . And with that being said I want them as close to original as I can get without re touching of anything .

I can understand someone with an old family heirloom that has a rotted out barrel taking it and having the original barrel relined so it's still shootable . But thats about as far as I personally would be willing to go .

[northmn]

A gunsmith friend of mine once bought an Original Sharps action that he turned into a fairly presentable reproduction of an original rifle. Redoing some of the derelicts is often preferable to letting them rust away or hang on walls. I have rebuilt a couple of old double hammer shotguns and try to keep them close to original conditon but workable. There's a lot to be said about restored vs refinished. If one can get one back to like new original condition that is great. Refinishing may be worse than the original condition.
As to your opinions about movies etc. There are those that like to build new muzzleloaders and then "antique" them. That is the most ridiculous thing I have seen as they then like to take a rifle that looks 200 years old to a get together that is supposed to reinact the time periods. When a Revolutionary war rifleman carried his rifle it looked like it was built in contemporary times.

DP

[Mike Brooks]

I wouldn't do anything to those old Marlins, except possibly put a liner in the bore if it was rotted out.

[Just Duke]

Don't restore then sell as original.


Duly noted and the original post was re-edited for content and clarification.

[Just Duke]

. And with that being said I want them as close to original as I can get without re touching of anything .
.

We all wish we could find them in this condition but we don't live in a perfect world. There's just not enough premium rifles out there to go around.
Everything wear's out and gets old looking including us.
Art gallery and museums acquire thousands of items that are almost beyond disrepair but they are restored.Also the firearms that you own and in no need of restoration (and I have seen many and in fine condition I might add) would not be applicable as far as the restoration topic here goes.

[Just Duke]

as to your opinions about movies etc. There are those that like to build new muzzleloaders and then "antique" them. That is the most ridiculous thing i have seen as they then like to take a rifle that looks 200 years old to a get together that is supposed to reinact the time periods. When a revolutionary war rifleman carried his rifle it looked like it was built in contemporary times.

Dp

THANK YOU!!! and well said.

[Ragnarok]

Personaly..I think a well used old original firearm is cooler than a new looking same thing...and usually more affordable. More desireable to a collector as well

Something I've noted about many arms collectors...their rules of moral virtue and method of grading firearms depends on whether they are buying or selling.

All that said....Modern reproductions of classic firearms is a God-send for most shooters. You get modern steel and affordable price. My Uberti Dragoon Colt clone ain't worth $20,000....but I can shoot the thing all I want too.

[Just Duke]

Personaly..I think a well used old original firearm is cooler than a new looking same thing...and usually more affordable. More desireable to a collector as well

Something I've noted about many arms collectors...their rules of moral virtue and method of grading firearms depends on whether they are buying or selling.

All that said....Modern reproductions of classic firearms is a God-send for most shooters. You get modern steel and affordable price. My Uberti Dragoon Colt clone ain't worth $20,000....but I can shoot the thing all I want too.

This is true. But they don't make all the models sought after. They don't make the Marlin 1881 and I believe they come on three frame sizes. The Winchester 1886's have lawyer safeties and rebounding hammers. I need to have my lawyer safeties welded up and hammer welded in.

[btroj]

My take is this- you own them, you may do as you wish.

I can tell you one thing, I USE my guns, I don't collect them.

Are you a shooter or a collector? Makes all the difference in the world. I don't care how original a rifle is, if it don't shoot I am not interested in owning it.

[Ragnarok]

Yeh..I take that point. I hate the lawyer safetys.

One of the main reasons I just recently opted for an out of production Browning SRC over a brand-new Winchester 1886 short-rifle. The safety being the main negative for me....I'm all for safety and safetys...but too many on a gun give me the heebie-jeebies.

That's 'dirty pool' dude!...Throw the safetys in my face...now I have to agree with you on the restore an old gun thing.

I would rather fix-up or restore if needed an old gun than do same to new gun because of the silly lawyer-****...

[Geobru]

I have an 1886 Winchester that my dad bought in about 1929 at an auction for either 1.50 or 1.75. The auctioneer handed it to him and said, "here kid, use it for a crowbar." It was a 40-82, lacked a rear sight, and the half cock safety didn't work. It languished unused in dad's closet until I got it. The receiver was brown with patina and had tiny pits over most of it. There were areas that looked brown but had active rust in them. I wound up with the gun, and in 2005, I got the itch to clean it up and start shooting it. I had several guys look at it, and the concensus was that it was a pitted gun, and would be a good shooter, but wasn't ever going to be a real collector's gun. I knew that if I did anything to the receiver, that it would ruin the "collectors" value, but if I did nothing, it would always be a pitted gun. I figured that if I cleaned up the receiver, that in a hundred years, it will be in better condition than if I left it alone.

I polished the receiver to get rid of the pits and rust that was hiding under the patina. I also repaired the half cock safety and added a period rear sight, then later replaced that with a marbles tang sight. I like the way it looks now, and if I had the money, I would have it case colored, but that will have to wait until I have the desire and the funds to do it.


This is what it looks like now, except for the addition of the Marbles tang sight.
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg193/Brugeo_4082/Gun%20stuff/1886%2040-82/1886_4082_8a.jpg

This is how it shoots.
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg193/Brugeo_4082/Gun%20stuff/1886%2040-82/004-1.jpg

I will never sell it. My only hope is that one of my sons or grandsons will treasure it as a family heirloom and hold onto it.

[Kansas Ed]

For me, a lot of depends on the "hard to get" factor. I would keep a wormy bore in an 1886 in 40-70, but could easily rebarrel a .33 or 40-82 with the same bore condition. I wouldn't touch any rifle which is original and unmessed with if it had a set trigger or takedown no matter the bore or metal condition...unless it was a total basket case or someone had previously hacked the barrel, drilled the receiver, or broken the tang off.

I know a lot of people think a Turnbull restoration is automatically worth 5K and above, but I would rather buy two of GeoBru's rifles than have one of Turnbulls restorations for the same money. In my mind, a restoration (no matter who did it) is just very slightly more attractive than a modern copy, and way behind an original unmessed with rifle. But that's just me.

There's a trigger in my brain somewhere around $500...give or take, which says: "you can alter this one if you desire, cause the value isn't much to begin with."

Ed

[chsparkman]

My dad has an old 92 Winchester in 32-20 that his older brother paid him for a job with during the 50's. It was an old gun at the time. Dad only fired the gun a few times. He's sure the barrel has a slight bend to it, but I can't see it. The left side of the stock is scratched up as though it spent long hours in a saddle scabbard. If it is bent, I wonder if a horse rolled over it or something like that. I am to get this gun the next time I drive out to CA (from VA) and I would like to have it evaluated as a possible shooter.

Any suggestions?

[nhrifle]

First let me say that I don't own any safe queens. Everything in my collection are working guns, and I shoot them regularly.

I would have to adjust my answer based upon the legend and history behind a particular firearm. If it is one of the 16 zillion Rollingblocks that Remington cranked out, do as you wish. A gun is a mechanical device for me and if it needs work, it will have it. Especially if Bubba got to it before me (damn guy had at a nice 1903A3 that I acquired awhile ago, but I made that rifle right).

There aren't many guns that I wouldn't give some love and care as they needed. However, something special is something special. One of the Winchester 1 of 1000 rifles I couldn't bring myself to do more than tighten the screws.

Probably the best example is a revolver that my mother-in-law showed me. She pulled it out of its box (nothing special, just a box) and handed it to me and asked me what it was. At first, it was something I had seen many times before. Colt SAA, nice blued finish, hard rubber grips, 44 WCF. Nice shape actually, almost no wear. "Nice piece," I said, "probably sell it for a bit over a thousand." Then she told me what I had in my hand. It is one of three guns used in Hopalong Cassidy. William Boyd's estate has one. The producer has one. The third one was in my hand, trembling a little now. To this day, all I can say is, wow!

I could never do a thing to that pistol.

[9.3X62AL]

Lotta good points being made here from all angles. Like Geobru, I have a Trapdoor Springfield that started life as a rifle c.1879, with proper Buffington rifle sight, lock complete, trigger and guard in place.

That's the good news. The not-so-good news is that the barrel is cut back to carbine length, though not to carbine profile. The stock into which the action/lock/trigger/guard are well-fit is some scrap muzzle-loader wood, lacking a band recess/fitting but complete with Rem BDL-style black (painted) fore end tip. It has an ovate Bavarian cheekpiece, like a Mannlicher-Schoenauer sporting rifle. There is no front sight. This assembly is enhanced by a steel cresent buttplate that should endear the shooter to whatever recoil the rifle produces. A concept collision at a 4-way stop of the first order.

Compared to a gen yoo wine Trapdoor Carbine, it's an aberration. As it sits currently, it isn't a bad-looking rifle--once you disable your aesthetic senses downward about 4-5 clicks. Cobbling up a way to secure the forward end of the barrel (a band around it, or a bolt from underneath) will commence later this coming year, and a front sight will be added to enable better-directed firing. Yes, it has been test-fired, with soft 405 grain castings and light loads of IMR-4198. Around a corner, string to trigger, rifle ensconced within a played-out tire for the first several rounds. It functions and fires perfectly, if not accurately. I have christened it my Bubba BDL Trapdoor Carbine, and I will update y'all on its progress once the upgrade and restoration (sic) begins.

Many thanks to Buckshot and his Asperley Aimless novella. It is from its text that I shamelessly will plagiarize the use of a hose clamp to set front sight elevation. I think the Buffington rear sight might be gilding the lily just a bit, but it's ONE THING there's no need to mess with.

[nhrifle]

9.3X62AL, I'm begging you, puhleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese! You can't leave it like that. I'd love to see a pic of that rifle as she sits!

[bob208]

well i fall in between. first read about the guns of the manufacture. like i see no one except a real collector that winchesters had a problem with the blueing on the receivers. it was flacking off as they left the factory. so you say gring off the hard coating on the reveiver and reblue it?
i can see cleaning up a rifle. cleaning off the rust oiling it. relining it if the barrel is shot out. i have even built up some locking bolts with hard chrome to get them back in headspace.
that patina is really avery slow refinish. as in rust blue. i have some that are going from plumb to blue.
now i have a 94 carbine made in 1932 in .32 w. spl. it has very little finish on the receiver. in fact the right lower corners are rubbed off and rounded. like it was carried draped over the arm. the wood shows the normal ware also. it has some dings. the bore is good it shoots good. should i refinish it make it look nice? or should i take pride in the u.s.government property stamped in the reveiver and the big u.s. stamp in the buttplate?
every one of these guns have a story. we may never know it. but to refinish it is to erase that story for ever.
i know some say they are your guns do what you want. i say we are just caretakers of them till some one else takes them over.
as for the well we restore cars. yes we do but that has gotten way out of hand also. in fact it is so bad that if you had a time machine . went back to 1967 took a new corvette off the line and brough it back to now it would only be a 70 point car in judging. yes i have a 66 corvette i am rebuilding to make it safe to drive. but i am not makeing it a show car.

[fouronesix]

Probably the best example is a revolver that my mother-in-law showed me. She pulled it out of its box (nothing special, just a box) and handed it to me and asked me what it was. At first, it was something I had seen many times before. Colt SAA, nice blued finish, hard rubber grips, 44 WCF. Nice shape actually, almost no wear. "Nice piece," I said, "probably sell it for a bit over a thousand." Then she told me what I had in my hand. It is one of three guns used in Hopalong Cassidy. William Boyd's estate has one. The producer has one. The third one was in my hand, trembling a little now. To this day, all I can say is, wow!

I could never do a thing to that pistol.

Wow is right! Actually, if that Colt is in top condition it is worth quite a bit more than 1000 just on its own merits. But it is one of those that fall into a slightly different collecting niche. If at all possible the provenance and documentation needs to be done sooner rather than later tying it to Mr. Boyd. The more the better by different people. Your heirs or your MIL's heirs will thank you. :)

[rintinglen]

Your money, your gun: you can do what you want..
But unless it is a dirt common gun like a 94 or 92 Winchester, I am opposed to honest wear being prettified. I was a present in a gun shopwhen a Home Gun Smith brought back in his grand father's 73. The owner had brought it in several weeks before to get an estimate of its worth. Hot blued, polished until the markings were scarcely readable, Polyurethane over Home Depot stained stock--it was sure pretty, but when the owner, with a big, stupid grin on his face, asked the Gunsmith, "NOW what is it worth," he was mightily chagrinned. As he left, 1,000 dollars poorer than he'd been a few weeks earlier, I heard the owner, not a man given to profanity, call the departing fellow a "f------ Idiot." Parallels my feelings on this topic.
On the other hand, just cause it old don't make worth a bunch. There is a piece o'junk Marlin that's for at shop nearby sale that's been on the shelf for years. Ruined sewer pipe of a bore, dried-out stock, oil damaged forend, enough pits to fill a bushel of prunes, no original finish, and on sale for 1,250 dollars marked down from 1500.

[9.3X62AL]

9.3X62AL, I'm begging you, puhleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese! You can't leave it like that. I'd love to see a pic of that rifle as she sits!

I get your drift, Rifle. The action is worthy of a more correct restoration. Original TD parts are ungodly expensive, though--so my views tend toward the Hippocratic Oath--"First, do no harm." I'll see about posting a few pics of this amalgamation with Marie's assistance. My computer literacy has limited scope.

[Mike Brooks]

I own guns for several different reasons. Some I buy to shoot and some I buy as collectors items. When I wanted a Sharps to shoot I bought a Shiloh. When I wanted one to add to my antique rifle collection I bought an original.
My " '76 Win shooter " was , made in Italy, as are all of my CAS guns except for my shotguns.
I own guns that were built as early as 1670, and alot of my collection centers around the mid 1700's. I have no desire to shoot any of those guns or "fix them up" so they can shoot.
In my opinion I find newly made guns fill my needs for shooting more than antique guns do....although I do shoot a SXS flint shotgun that was made in 1815 and a SXS cartridge gun that was made in the mid 1860's.
I suppose if I just HAD to have a '81 Marlin and a repro just wouldn't do I'd look for an antique that was in solid condition that I could reline or rebore and leave the rest of the gun and it's patina alone.
Of course you might consider I make a living building guns that look old.....

[Just Duke]

I own guns for several different reasons. Some I buy to shoot and some I buy as collectors items. When I wanted a Sharps to shoot I bought a Shiloh. When I wanted one to add to my antique rifle collection I bought an original.
My " '76 Win shooter " was , made in Italy, as are all of my CAS guns except for my shotguns.
I own guns that were built as early as 1670, and alot of my collection centers around the mid 1700's. I have no desire to shoot any of those guns or "fix them up" so they can shoot.
In my opinion I find newly made guns fill my needs for shooting more than antique guns do....although I do shoot a SXS flint shotgun that was made in 1815 and a SXS cartridge gun that was made in the mid 1860's.
I suppose if I just HAD to have a '81 Marlin and a repro just wouldn't do I'd look for an antique that was in solid condition that I could reline or rebore and leave the rest of the gun and it's patina alone.
Of course you might consider I make a living building guns that look old.....

I just checked your website and they look great.

[bob208]

then we get the morion that goes the other way. there was a nice 94 rifle i wanted had about 60 present bluing left on the receiver. 90 on the barrel stocks were untouched. hhed some special order stuff on it. part round part oct. barrel pistol grip. this moron beat me to it. i saw it 2 months later. he had it for sale for 300 more then he paid for it.

but now it had no finish on the receiver very little barrel. the stocks were sanded had some notches cut in the wrist. i asked why ? he said it did not look old so he made it look old so it was worth more.

[Gunnut 45/454]

I'm in no way a collector of firearms. I have three that to me have great value -to me. None are one of a kind or very rare firearms or have been used by famous or infamous people in history. I do shoot everyone of them and keep them in shooting condition. One is my fathers Browning A5 "Sweet Sixteen" the others are G98/40's that my father brought back from WWII one a complete S/N Match the other a bolt mismatch. To me the S/N matching has the biggest value cause my father used it to save his life during a battle when his issued rifle was damaged by enemy fire which also wounded him. He picked it up during the hand to hand frakis to stop from being killed, I also have the actual ammo poaches he took off the dead german troops to get ammo for the rifle. When he passed they were given to me. I honor his memory every hunting season by using the Sweet on the fisrt day of the season. And shoot the G98/40s often at the range, though now that I have a shooter K98 they don't get shot as often. I love these old Milsurps they are great fun to shoot!:mrgreen:

[Gunlaker]

In addition to rarity I think it depends on the condition of the rifle. I have an 1885 Winchester that is a reasonbly rare configuration in nice condition. I'll never mess with that one. I also have an 1886 Winchester in pretty rough shape chambered in .38-56 that, if I lived in America, would already be at Turnbulls getting restored to the way it left the factory.

Chris.

[wv109323]

The restoration or amount there of depends on the owners preference. I can stand honest wear and patina. What I can't stand is rounded screw heads,Rust and/or pitting, cracks or busted wood, Initials in metal or wood or someone's less than desirable artwork, a non-functioning gun that needs springs or parts replaced.
I would repair/replace a little as possible to get to the point of my acceptance.

[double8]

This is my 1926 .32 SPCL that was re-blued and the stock re-done about 1965. My LGS owner said it lost 50% of it's value by doing that. All in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

57024

[9.3X62AL]

Appearance AND "value" are both "eye of the beholder" issues. I consider Double 8's 94 x 32 WS to be flat-out gorgeous AND eminently useful for its designed role of venison maker in the deer woods. "Collector value" is a factor, surely--but a small element to me when compared with the joy I derive from range work or field time with a firearm. I accept that other folks value arms in ways different than my own, which is the substance of my earlier post where I said "First, do no harm". Right along with that, I can't see that any "harm" was done to that lovely Win 94! :)

[Just Duke]

This is my 1926 .32 SPCL that was re-blued and the stock re-done about 1965. My LGS owner said it lost 50% of it's value by doing that. All in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

57024

Looks good to me and serviceable.

[double8]

Thanks,
It was pretty well used in the Northeast for years, and folded up many a deer. The professional 'smith that did the work didn't round the screw heads, or bugger the slots, and did a great job on the bluing.

[Dave Bulla]

then we get the morion that goes the other way. there was a nice 94 rifle i wanted had about 60 present bluing left on the receiver. 90 on the barrel stocks were untouched. hhed some special order stuff on it. part round part oct. barrel pistol grip. this moron beat me to it. i saw it 2 months later. he had it for sale for 300 more then he paid for it.

but now it had no finish on the receiver very little barrel. the stocks were sanded had some notches cut in the wrist. i asked why ? he said it did not look old so he made it look old so it was worth more.

That's got to be the dumbest d@*!%ed thing I've EVER heard of anyone doing to a gun! Like "antiquing" furniture by beating on it with a chain...

[rbertalotto]

A 1926, 32spl is the perfect gun for restoration. They literally made millions of them. They are not considered collectable in any real way. But they are fantastic rifles and the work done on double8's is beautiful. In this case, no value was lost and in fact it might actually be worth a bit more than a clapped out 1926 rifle.

BTW, "Beauty is in the eye of the buyer" when it comes to investing in firearms.............:-D

[nhrifle]

Dave, who hasn't come across a gun that used to be special before it was "made better" by someone who didn't know better.

Maybe we should start a thread sometime entitled Show Off Your Bubba'd Guns.

[moptop]

I just purchased a Winchester 1892 in 38-40. I bought this particular rifle because of it's very good mechanical condition and with the intentions of shooting it. Unfortunatley it came with some "embelisments" on the stock from a previous owner. On the other side, it was a wonderful surprise that the bore on this rifle is in excellent shape, IMO. It is very tempting to try to improve it's appearence by steaming it and/or refinishing it but I plan on leaving it as it is. It's part of the rifle's history making it so unquie.



We all know that there's a bazillion 92's out there so it not like it's a rarity but I'd feel like I would be taking way is individual identity.

Here's a pic, let me know if you think the ol' girl needs a facelift or not.
BTW. She shoots Great!!!


I added 2 more pictures, one of the other side of the stock and one of the bore. Hard to believe the stock looks so rough but the bore is in such good shape. I wish she could talk!

[nhrifle]

Moptop if it doesn't bother you, leave it alone, shoot it and enjoy it and put some marks of your own on it.

[9.3X62AL]

Looks just fine to me. Could be a ranch brand, for all we know. Cosmetics come in way down the list if mechanical integrity and bore condition are are good or better.

[Mike Brooks]

Looks fine to me.

[fouronesix]

moptop,
Agree with others. If it has good mechanics and good bore, I'd leave it alone! That carving looks old and has a unique story all it's own.
Maybe just a careful cleaning and re-oiling then start working on loads.

[TXGunNut]

Interesting thread, Duke. I don't really have a horse in this race as most all my guns are younger than I am. I will repair or replace buggared or lost/wrong screws and clean up rust damage but all my guns were bought as shooters and most are 90% or better guns. I'll refinish the stock to upgrade or repair an old finish but prefer a satin oil finish, even on newer guns. I'll also upgrade sights as a concession to middle-aged eyes and add sling swivel studs to make it a better hunter. I'd consider older guns on an individual basis and would never restore a rifle that had historical value, if known. If I ran across a 70% beater gun for the right price I'd restore it for hunting or shooting use but it would have to be a special piece to justify that investment. I enjoy seeing a junker restored and especially like the works of art Doug Turnbull and his ilk turn out, just can't justify that investment.
As has been pointed out our guns will outlast us and we are only caretakers who pay for the honor.

[moptop]

Thanks guys. I was hoping you would say that. I do plan on changing the rear sight. One of the horns has either been filed off or broken off, and like TXGunNut said, the "middle aged" eyes aren't as good as they used to be. I need all the help I can get with these tri-noculars I ware.

[fouronesix]

No problem adding a tang sight. The best of course would be a Lyman or Marbles of correct age for your rifle- but they could set you back more than you're willing to spend. However, the modern models work the same way and you won't have to drill any extra holes to mount any of the correct M92 tang sights. Look back thru KirdD's posts on accurate loading for these. IIRC?- I did see your 38-40 brass post. Get some Starline brass and some fairly soft plain base 180 gr traditional style bullets sized to about .401, load light smokeless charges with correct powder, lightly crimp into groove and see what she'll do. I guarantee refinishing or cosmetics won't have a thing to do with accurate, reliable shooting. If that is an anchor?? carved into the butt you can call it your "Navy Model". :)

[moptop]

fouronesix, You and I have the same idea about a tang sight. I've already loading 38-40 for my brother's 92 & 73 using Winchester brass. 180grn FN is what I'm using over 5.0grns of Trailboss and been having very good luck with that load. I'm using Missouri Bullet Co's... umm IDPA #5 IIRC. They don't have a crimp groove but it hasn't been a problem so far, no bullet set-back. I got to shoot her last friday and she shoots better than I can see!! Very pleased with the performance.

Not sure if that's an anchor or not. Someone suggested a ranch brand possibly? It's anyones guess at this point.

[fouronesix]

Sounds good to me and the Win brass is going to be very similar to SL. The 5.0 gr of TB works well in the M92 with the 180 gr bullet. I standardized at 4.0 gr Trailboss in the 38-40 because I have Win 92, Win 73 and 1st Gen Colt SAA and feel comfortable about that same load for all three. And it simplifies things.

[BCRider]

Duke, your idea of restoring them to what they were like when they were near new does make some sense. I guess the thing to do before starting is to see if any one particular example is worth more to a collector. After all despite how you and others like you feel about restoring "fair wear and tear" finishes if it's going to cost you some cash to do so AND it'll reduce the value by a significant amount due to the gun being something a little unusual and of worth to a collector it seems a bit over the top to do the resto'..... at least it would be unless YOU want THAT gun and plan on keeping it for many years.

On the look of those old towns in the movies? I would not be TOO hard on the directors. The raw wood left alone turned darker brown and then grey pretty quickly under the weather due to not being finished with anything. A raw cedar fence left alone darkens in the first year or two at the most and is an "old" grey colour by the end of the fouth season. A lot of those boom town builders didn't even white wash the siding back then. At least not until the town had a hint of permanency to it.

[Just Duke]

A raw cedar fence left alone darkens in the first year or two at the most and is an "old" grey colour by the end of the fouth season. A lot of those boom town builders didn't even white wash the siding back then. At least not until the town had a hint of permanency to it.

Here in the South West we don't have any seasons. It's either Scorching hot or not so hot. NV get's 3" of rain a year and AZ get's 8" on a good year.
I live in the South West also lived in Apache Junction/Goldfield AZ for 7 years and horse packed through the Superstition Mountain Range and trailered horses up to the Mogollon Rim and never saw a lumber grade cedar tree which would be the required media to build a cedar fence. Cedar of this grade is not an indigenous to the south western regions of AZ or NV.
When was last time you were down here?

If you would like I'll go out and take a pic of the yellow pine fence we put up 6 years ago to keep the Shih Tzu's in and it has 0 weathering what so ever.

Along with the other annoying inaccuracies I have seen, example; Hollywoodlands inbred illusions (aka. Film Actors Guild Society strategically located a top "Broke Back Mountain") is the "drop loop gun belt" which was a design of Alfonso Leather HERE (http://www.vintagegunleather.com/company-marks/alfonso_hollywood_history.html) and a few others including adjustable length lace on billets. This style of belt and holster was never used in the 1800's and not period correct along with those goofy EASY ON EASY OFF rodeo cowboy saddles.
Here is another example, a fantasy genre western outfit design influenced by members of the Film Actors Guild that if worn into a Redneck bar would net one a free ride to the local ER and applied use of ones dental insurance. HERE (http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/ROY.jpg)
As long as I'm on the subject of correcting historical myths that includes factual architecture, attire and saddlery I also would like to add there is no Easter Bunny either.




And back on topic.


. at least it would be unless YOU want THAT gun and plan on keeping it for many years.

This would be most applicable.
Also others have stated they have rifles handed down to them and I surely understand the sentimental family linage attachment along with documented events pertaining to the previous owner and not willing to make changes to it as it exists today.
However I have no family left hence no inherited firearms passed down so anything that I would appropriate myself would come as a non sentimental billet of wood and steel with no emotional attachment to it from an on line firearms auction house. Apathetic possibly but realistic. It's just a tool dude. ;)

[Just Duke]

I also have an 1886 Winchester in pretty rough shape chambered in .38-56 that, if I lived in America, would already be at Turnbulls getting restored to the way it left the factory.

Chris.

I would do the same.

[Martinicadetfan]

Folks

I have recently acquired a really nice .310 Martini Cadet, BSA manufacture, with a serial number which suggests a 1909 build. Lovely patina on the metal work and all original parts, perfect bore, shoots tight groups, matching serial numbers etc etc.

But, a previous owner has "restored" the timber work, and effaced most of the armoury marks (these rifles were originally purchased by the Commonwealth Government of Australia to equip the school cadet units and were stamped (usually on the butt) every time they went into a new armoury. The result of the "restoration" is that a lot of history has been lost.

So for my rifle, I would prefer to keep it original, what do others think?

.

[Just Duke]

Folks

I have recently acquired a really nice .310 Martini Cadet, BSA manufacture, with a serial number which suggests a 1909 build. Lovely patina on the metal work and all original parts, perfect bore, shoots tight groups, matching serial numbers etc etc.

But, a previous owner has "restored" the timber work, and effaced most of the armoury marks (these rifles were originally purchased by the Commonwealth Government of Australia to equip the school cadet units and were stamped (usually on the butt) every time they went into a new armoury. The result of the "restoration" is that a lot of history has been lost.

So for my rifle, I would prefer to keep it original, what do others think?

.

Welcome aboard Martini.

[jdowney]

As usual, I just don't get it when it comes to a "pet peeves" thread...:-D

[fouronesix]

Folks

So for my rifle, I would prefer to keep it original, what do others think?

.

Agreed. I looked at a cadet a few years ago that was near pristine on the outside, probably started out before the alteration as near pristine on the inside, but had been re-chambered to 357. Even though the price was very right, I passed. I'm sure the person who bought it was very happy with it. In gun shops and at guns shows, it's always interesting to watch the inter-action between those who try to sell altered or restored antique guns and those pointing out the problem with the price tag. Pride then hope then denial then anger spring eternal :)

[fouronesix]

While these are not lever guns I think the idea and topic is the same.

Here's a Civil War M1842 54 cal SB pistol and a US belt plate. The pistol is as I found it except- I do shoot it and before shooting I took it apart to inspect. I replaced the nipple, cleaned and oiled the lock and cleaned the bore. Nothing else was done. The belt plate is as I received it.

Both have the letter "H" scratched-in. The pistol has two- one on the lower stock (pictured) and one in the brass butt. The belt plate has three in the lead fill backing (the Hs in the lead have been chalked to show better in photo). Both could be restored to an as new, "perty" condition. It is most unlikely that these were issued or owned by the same person ("H") during or since the Civil War. I think restoring, polishing, altering or whatever of either, whether or not there is a connection, would be foolish- IMO.

[Just Duke]

While these are not lever guns I think the idea and topic is the same.


Both could be restored to an as new, "perty" condition. It is most unlikely that these were issued or owned by the same person ("H") during or since the Civil War. I think restoring, polishing, altering or whatever of either, whether or not there is a connection, would be foolish- IMO.

Agreed.

[pls1911]

Restore function first, then carefully consider the next moves.
If a gun has been highly used but well cared for, likely the bore is fine, the exterior metal shows grey around the sharp corners from honest work, and the stock carrys it's own well earned legacy of good times, tough times and hard work.
I'll restore actions and tighten stocks, repair sights for old shooters to shoot well again. Wood Restoration consists of only needed structural repairs, a few gentle rubs with fine steel wool with "restorer" to remove old grease and grime, and probably a couple of coats of tongue oil to finish it off.
I have never found one which I would subject to a full repolish and reblue.

My current project is the an 1893 full rifle with a bore that looks like an asphalt parking lot, but retains strong rifling. The action is tight and slick, the stock looks like it was used to drive railroad spikes, and of course, there's no sign of bluing... Just a hint of case color in well hidden places.
This one will likely be restocked, and the stock "aged" to match the metal, and the barrel relined or rebored to .35/30.
When I'm finished it will be a smooth but somewhat grisley old gun, proudly carrying most of it's legacy of work, but should surprise folks with tack driving accuracy, using peep sights and old fashioned lead bullets.
I am in need of a brass crescent butt piece for the new stock, and a recommendation for the bore work. Drop me an IM if you can provide a referral. Thanks.

[blixen]

I buy guns as shooters. I don't "restore" but sometimes have to "rehab" to get them functioning correctly. When I do fix a crack or replace a part, I don't attempt to make the finish match. Instead, I leave it clear that something has been repaired. On most of my rifles that are old, rather than valuable, the repairs ad to their honest story. I have a Win. Mod. 94 that has been repaired many times since the 1920s. It has some weather splits near the buttplate that someone filled with wood putty probably 40 years ago. It's crumbling out and when necessary, I'll replace it -- maybe with epoxy wood filler-- but I won't try to conceal the repair. Just my opinion.

[Just Duke]

For the new guys ;)

[EDG]

Your perception of the way things were in the west is not accurate.
Most folks were subsistence farmers and ranchers. They simply had no cash and they did not live in towns.
They ate corn bread because they raised their own corn and gave half of it to the miller for grinding it into corn meal. They slaughtered their own hogs, made their own lye soap, picked wild grapes, harvested native pecans etc. The only thing sweet was wild honey, sorghum molasses and fruit from their own trees. No sugar and no refined white flour. As my grandmother said they used every part of a hog except the squeal.
How do I know this? I was raised by my grandparents both of whom were the youngest children of large families. My grandfather broke his last horse at the age of 62. He built his last barn about that time. As a teen ager I helped brand cattle. The family's registered brand was a heart. Other members of my family lived close enough to smell the odor of the buffalo hides being shipped from Ft Griffin.
You have probably seen Lonesome Dove. The two main characters were based on Oliver Loving and Charles Goodnight of the Goodnight-Loving Trail fame. Both had ranches near my family before the Civil War. (The real west was not like Lonesome Dove either.) You might read the "The Adventures of Big-Foot Wallace" by John C. Duval and anything you can find about Captain John Coffee Hays.

The west of cartridge rifle fame did not last long. It was mostly gone by the time lever guns came along.

[Just Duke]

Your perception of the way things were in the west is not accurate.
Most folks were subsistence farmers and ranchers. They simply had no cash and they did not live in towns.
They ate corn bread because they raised their own corn and gave half of it to the miller for grinding it into corn meal. They slaughtered their own hogs, made their own lye soap, picked wild grapes, harvested native pecans etc. The only thing sweet was wild honey, sorghum molasses and fruit from their own trees. No sugar and no refined white flour. As my grandmother said they used every part of a hog except the squeal.
How do I know this? I was raised by my grandparents both of whom were the youngest children of large families. My grandfather broke his last horse at the age of 62. He built his last barn about that time. As a teen ager I helped brand cattle. The family's registered brand was a heart. Other members of my family lived close enough to smell the odor of the buffalo hides being shipped from Ft Griffin.
You have probably seen Lonesome Dove. The two main characters were based on Oliver Loving and Charles Goodnight of the Goodnight-Loving Trail fame. Both had ranches near my family before the Civil War. (The real west was not like Lonesome Dove either.) You might read the "The Adventures of Big-Foot Wallace" by John C. Duval and anything you can find about Captain John Coffee Hays.

The west of cartridge rifle fame did not last long. It was mostly gone by the time lever guns came along.

To whom are you describing your family history to? Also Lonesome Dove was a movie sold for entertainment value and not a factual historical documentary and only Biff and Buffy living in yuppyville would look to it as factual.

[Just Duke]

I will drag myself back on topic also. lol

[W.R.Buchanan]

I look at it this way. And this holds true for my Jeeps and cars as well.

There are many factors that contribute to the decision to restore or leave alone. What you plan on doing with the gun, What condition it is in, Is there any significant history attached to the gun. Did someone famous own it? Is it rare, and does anyone care.

As far as condition goes. If the gun in not historically significant and the condition is less than 50% I say restore it. If the gun was made in large numbers and is not a custom piece from special order, then Restore it.

If you want a nice shooter then restore it.

There is a Winchester 1892 in 38-40 for sale at my local hardware store. It is a rifle made in 1905 but it is in such bad condition nobody has bought it in over two years. The owner wants $1500 for the gun and on a good day it is worth maybe $200, and that is as wall hanger or a core to use as a resto project for someone like Turnbull who can go deep into a gun and yield a masterpiece after the rework.

This guy thinks simply because the gun was made in 1905 that it is somehow rare, and it is NOT! They made thousands of them over the years and there is nothing significant about 1905.

If a gun is a generic gun then I see no issue whatsoever with refinishing or modifying it. This is why I like playing with Marlin Leverguns. They are cheap and can be made into beautiful pieces just by refinishing the wood and doing some action work. Also by converting them to takedown they can be made into very cool multipurpose rifles. This was done at the factory in the early 1900's in the Custom Shop, however Marlin hasn't had a Custom Shop in 70 years or more.

An 1895 in .45-70 with both Carbine length and Rifle length barrels and nice wood would be a cool gun set. Also a 336 with both .30-30 rifle and .38-55 bbls. would be cool. Doing these mods to a generic gun would increase it's value substantially. I wouldn't do this to a nice Winchester 92 with all the bluing in tact and a bright bore.

Both Winchester and Marlin originally had Custom Shops and many guns were built to order. These guns were typically owned by well to do people who traveled. As a result most of these types of guns were built to higher standards of fit and finish. They came in cases and were made as takedowns for convenience when traveling. They were also typically taken care of better.

If one of these guns came into your possession and it was still in very good to excellent condition it would be more valuable if left alone. If the condition was down the scale and the gun was a desirable model then Professional Restoration by someone like Turnbull who could return the gun to its former glory would bring it back to a value similar to an unrestored gun of similar condition.

When I see Turnbull Winchester and Marlin restos going for $15-35,000. and people paying $5-10,000 for the resto work on guns considered Family Heirlooms, the collectors value comes into question. I personally like pretty guns over ones with "patina."

Patina is just a fancy word for rust.

I submit that the 1892 mentioned above would be worth considerably more after being restored by Turnbull than the $1500 he is asking for it in it's current condition which he will never get.

Unless you plan on your family keeping a gun forever, what YOU think a gun is worth is immaterial. It is what the market thinks the gun is worth that matters in the real world.

All guns eventually get sold, traded given away or destroyed. They are objects that have value. Really nice ones command high prices and many end up in Museums which is the ultimate place for a choice gun to go, since it's condition will more or less become static, and many people can then enjoy it.

The only thing that trumps condition is Historical Significance, and the only thing that beats that is Excellent Condition, with Historical Significance.

No one in their right mind would consider restoring one of Teddy Roosevelt's rifles, but he took pretty good care of his guns and now they are all in museums.

I could go on and on but in the end it is your gun and you can do with it what you choose.

However it might end up costing you big $ down the road. You will have to weigh that cost against the enjoyment you've gotten out of the gun to reconcile this argument.

Randy

[Dirty30]

I'm happy to see all the fellas in here that are for restoring rifles. I guess that's the difference between shooters and interior decorators. We owe it to these old rifles to keep them in good shape and shooting. In England old shotguns are restored and passed down every generation. There are rich folk shooting pheasants with guns five generations old. That's how it should be. I hope those in my lineage take good care of and use my rifles.

[KCSO]

Well I'll have to agree with Duke on this one. I restore (not cobble) old guns including muzzleloaders. Done correctly there is nothing wrong with restoration. What really peeves me is a fellow who orders a new M/L rifle and then wants me to make it LOOK OLD. You suppose folks went to the gun shop in the old days and said" Hey give me that OLD looking one"? Use it and don't abuse it and it will GROW old with you.

[texassako]

I say do whatever you feel like to have a gun you like. My dad likes Winchester '92 and specifically collects the ones that are functional yet show their use. He likes the idea that they were used by a working man instead of sitting in a closet. One of my favorite rifles to take out and look at is a much maligned Lebel R35 carbine(I know, not a levergun), but it has shrapnel, stains, dents, and dings that always make me wonder what stories it could tell. The one thing I don't like is when someone will not shoot their gun because it is to valuable. They were made to shoot, not look at, and a few rounds are not going to ruin it.

[mroliver77]

I can get dirty in a sterile operating room! I have no "cherry" guns. Well I have one "unfired" Winchester gold plated commemorative. Weak moment or I was stoned or something. I could scratch a gun if I were naked in a crushed velvet room!

I prefer working guns. I love faded out bluing turning to a gray!(I thought that was patina). My favorite color is WW2 parkerizing. ;)

My favorite lever is an 1893 Marlin in 38-55. Clean, solid, nice bore and faded bluing and case color. Somehow the stock got worm ate. Somebody filled and put a hard shiny finish on it. I rubbed it down with 0000 steel wool and paste wax to give it a dull finish. Rubbed with beeswax it looks pretty good. f I ever find a good stock at a fair price I will upgrade it.

There are antiques that it would be sinful to refinish or modify in any way. We are stewards and not really owners of some historical or irreplaceable artifacts. (imho)
I hate guns that never get shot! Kinda like marrying Grace Kelly and never .....well you know.

[W.R.Buchanan]

II hate guns that never get shot! Kinda like marrying Grace Kelly and never .....well you know.

Getting to shoot her?

Randy

[Just Duke]

Quote Originally Posted by mroliver77 View Post
II hate guns that never get shot! Kinda like marrying Grace Kelly and never .....well you know.
Getting to shoot her?

Randy

You guys are really aging yourselves LOL!

After reading all this I know it what to do with my low 3 digit 1876 Centennial Winchester rifle. Reline it, refinish it with a kit from Brownells or Midway, checker the stock and refinish it too with some good old fashioned stuff and then go elk hunting with it horseback in a scabbard.

No need to buy the kit Bill. Give me a jingle and I'll tell you how to do the finish like they did 130 years ago for a few bucks and still retain the original patina as an option.
I have a new number to the bat cave though.

[Just Duke]

For the new guys.

[DeanWinchester]

They're yours. I ain't never been much of a purist. Something that is neither pleasing nor functional is worthless to me so I say fix em up!
Some purists really get on my nerves. YOU paid for the rifles, so do as YOU please. If you wanna whoop em against a tree and use them for tomato stakes that's just fine because they are YOURS.

I'm fixing up a 1963 M151 mutt to drive around and deer hunt with. I have a hard time getting help from some of the dedicated forums because I ain't t restoring it PROPERLY with the CORRECT parts. Bahh! It's mine. I'll do as I please.


One thing though, you gotta post pics of before and after!!

[dragon813gt]

It comes down to the particular rifle. Is it a collector or a shooter. I most likely, notice I didn't say wouldn't, leave a collector untouched. I don't own any collectors. A shooter, well I wouldn't hesitate to refinish them. Just think of all the old cars that wouldn't be around if they weren't restored. The same thought applies to firearm. They're your property so do with them as you please.

[dakota]

I have an Winchester 64 30-30, which I take good care of, but it goes to matches with me and I think it's very nice to look at. I was driving through the reservation and came to a road construction stop. The guy that flagged me down saw the 64 and said, "Boy if I had that, the first thing I'd do is sand that down and refinish it. I'd sand that metal until it shined and I'd put a pretty polish on that wood too. People around here think I do pretty good work too."

I didn't offer to let him do that for me though.:roll:

My guns are shooters. Even the ones that should be in the safe are so (not many fall in that category). I think that many rifles, revolvers, shotguns, pistols are works of art and I love to look at them. But I can't afford a work of art in my gun safe. I envy those who can.:wink:
Good thread.

[Just Duke]

I just purchased a Winchester 1892 in 38-40. I bought this particular rifle because of it's very good mechanical condition and with the intentions of shooting it. Unfortunatley it came with some "embelisments" on the stock from a previous owner. On the other side, it was a wonderful surprise that the bore on this rifle is in excellent shape, IMO. It is very tempting to try to improve it's appearence by steaming it and/or refinishing it but I plan on leaving it as it is. It's part of the rifle's history making it so unquie.



We all know that there's a bazillion 92's out there so it not like it's a rarity but I'd feel like I would be taking way is individual identity.

Here's a pic, let me know if you think the ol' girl needs a facelift or not.
BTW. She shoots Great!!!


I added 2 more pictures, one of the other side of the stock and one of the bore. Hard to believe the stock looks so rough but the bore is in such good shape. I wish she could talk!

I'd restock it for sure.