Heavy long range 30-06 mold/load needed

[NVScouter]

I just bought a Mauser conversion in 30-06 just for cast shooting.

It's a 22" barrel with 1 in 10" barrel. I want a 200-250g boolit for 500y shooting/350y hunting. I'm looking at muzzle velocities around 2200-2600fps.

The LEE and NOE 300 blackout molds interest me if I can get them to shoot in a 1-10".

I have found lots of data for heavy loads at 1200-1800fps but not much over that. Ideas? Threads I missed? Thank you.

[NVScouter]

I forgot to add.

I have a 160g 313 LEE mold to start testing the throat length

I've also ripped it a part cleaned and lapped the barrel. Stripped/replied the stock and free floated the barrel. The bases were cleaned up/chased the threads and replaced with lok-tite. Lapped the rings, reset scope, etc. Some trigger work is in its future but just some slickening. I like a bit heavier trigger for a hunting rifle.

I also regularly shoot various rifles over 800 yards and one over 1k.

[FAsmus]

Scouter;

I am interested to ask - has your long range shooting been done with cast bullets? Most especially at the "pushing it" velocities you mention?

If so, wonderful, if not stand by for some practice ~ some experimentation in heat treating, lots of long range experimentation and the assurance of some difficulty achieving reliability when stressing your cast bullets to the max.

I shoot one of my 3006s with HT Lyman 311284 and two others with HT RCBS 30-180-SP. All loads are in the neighborhood of 2000 ft/sec. and do well all the way out to 834 yards.

They will not shoot with the purpose-built 45/70s in the wind but if things are calm the load/rifles will shoot right with the best of them.

Good evening,
Forrest

[NVScouter]

Sorry I shoot cast in my T/C to 350y and my 45s to 200y for handgnds.

My old 303 was getting good at 250y and my 300WBY is great to 200y but that huge case makes it rough. It's the main reason I bought a dedicated cast hunting rifle.

The long range stuff has been all jacketed. I only own the one 30 cal mold but with it my lube holds up at 2500 well, but I had accuracy issues. My 303 accurate load was right at 2100 with 4198.

[NVScouter]

I'm relocating to Cody in a few weeks where are you? I'm always up for some range time not to mention some mold sharing!

[uscra112]

I'll admit up front that I'm a total neophyte at the .30-06, but the canonical 200 gr. boolits are 311284 and 311299. I'll be interested to see what the experienced .30-06 guys here have to suggest!

[Bjornb]

I believe the most extensive work when it comes to shooting 30-cal boolits has been done by CB member Joe Brennan. His 600-page tome "Cast Bullets for Beginner and Expert" can be viewed here http://www.lasc.us/indexBrennan.htm
I purchased the CD for $5 and it contains just about every variation of loads/boolits that exists out there. Lots of contributions from the regular experts on this forum.

[pdawg_shooter]

If you want jacketed performance take up paper patching. You can get the same accuracy and velocity that way with NO chance of leading.

[1Shirt]

Will be interested in your results, please post as you go thru your trial and error periods. I would go with 311284 as a start.
1Shirt!

[NVScouter]

Maybe I can get Al to let me have a handful of those 247s, I need to buy one of those mallets anyways. I'm tired of my wacking stick flaking off all over my sprue cutt offs.

Last time I was in the NOE shop that new CNC machine had just been delivered and now I see his catalog is expanding. I just got moved up 3 weeks on my relocation however.

I just want to give the 1-10" a go since if I have to rebarrel I might as well go 338-06 or 35WH.

[Moonie]

My 245gr (accurate molds version) boolits stabilize just fine in my 1-10" at 1,950fps. I use 35gr H4895, you should be able to up this to get where you want. Personally I'd up it until accuracy fell off rather than a number was reached.

[NVScouter]

the 30-06's case neck is .8461 long and the LEE 230 1.363 long. Making maximum seating depth that leaves .5169 of boolit for a minimum OAL of 3.011. Thats esimating since I havent see a spec drawing with measurements. Most data I find shows an COAL of 3.33-3.250 for the 30-06.

NOE is 1.335 long with .460 from GC to crimp groove. Thats a COAL of 3.3691, any idea about chambering/seating issues?

[NVScouter]

My 245gr (accurate molds version) boolits stabilize just fine in my 1-10" at 1,950fps. I use 35gr H4895, you should be able to up this to get where you want. Personally I'd up it until accuracy fell off rather than a number was reached.

Thanks, honestly I'm fighting some Magnum Mentality here. I just want to be able to pick this rifle up and shoot anything in Wyoming with it with one load.

[FAsmus]

Scouter;

"Anything in Wyoming" could mean big Bears, bigger Moose, large-enough Elk and even Buffalo for those so moved ~ as well as the common run of lighter game.

If a fellow is planning on hunting all with cast bullets there comes a certain difficulty when a man needs a Deer/Antelope rifle more often than one suited for heavy or dangerous game.

Two rifles might be considered here - a 30 caliber shooting a HT HP bullet in excess of 2000 ft/sec and - say - a 35 Whelen on a M1917 action for everything else.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[pdawg_shooter]

Have you considered the 45-70?

[NVScouter]

Have you considered the 45-70?

I'm working a deal on a 45-90 rolling block but I still want the 30-06 for every day use. The lever guns limit range and I have short 45LC lever action already that. The bolt action gives me power, accuracy, and 5 rounds.

Now if I get a Buffalo tag I cant think of a better way to hunt them. Either that or traditional blackpowder.

[FAsmus]

Scouter;

This is getting into somewhat of a digression but, since you mention the big-bore option I'll mention that I have been shooting various calibers in excess of 375 for some time.

My lever gun is a converted Marlin 1895, now in 40 WCF. I have a Red Willow Ballard in 45/70 and a Industria Armi Bresciane Sharps in 50/90SS. Your idea of a 45/90 on the rolling block is very good: I've seen men shoot wonderful scores with this caliber.

Lets leave Black alone though ~ way too much work there..

Good morning,
Forrest

[Moonie]

Hard to stop a 245/247 30 caliber boolit going around 2000fps. I wouldn't feel under gunned hunting just about anything in the U.S. with it.

[Nobade]

I have very good results with the Lee 200gr. boolit paper patched in my 1:10 30-06 loaded over WW780 at 2550 fps. Pretty much all the '06 can manage. It shoots very accurately, under 1.5 MOA and is plenty powerful to shoot as far away as you could want to. By being paper patched, the boolits are air cooled wheelweights so could be used on game though I haven't tried that yet.

It is easier to get really long range accuracy from the 375 H&H and the 416, but the recoil is much heavier and not as much fun to sit behind for a large number of shots from the bench.

[MT Gianni]

I have had good luck with the RCBS 180 fp (195 gr ww Alloy + check and lube). Cut your range demands to 200 yards and you can do it all with cast. However if you cut your range down to reasonable look a a Whelen or 358. OTOH, 100 jacketed bullets will keep you in 2 lopers, 3 deer and an Elk (10 shots inc 3 sighters) for ten years.

[Larry Gibson]

I just bought a Mauser conversion in 30-06 just for cast shooting.

It's a 22" barrel with 1 in 10" barrel. I want a 200-250g boolit for 500y shooting/350y hunting. I'm looking at muzzle velocities around 2200-2600fps.

The LEE and NOE 300 blackout molds interest me if I can get them to shoot in a 1-10".

I have found lots of data for heavy loads at 1200-1800fps but not much over that. Ideas? Threads I missed? Thank you.

Hmmmmm....the old "I want 2200 - 2600 fps with a cast bullet out of a 10" twist '06" question again! Any one want to explain the RPM threshold to him?

Many have tried what you ask and all find it close to impossible with what we know and the componants today. A couple claim to be able to do such but the proof of such is slim to none with with slim being gone. Some of us have pushed select designed cast bullets to 2200 fps with reasonable accuracy (2 moa consistently) but above that to do so consistently is difficult to say the least. If you want to shoot a "heavy" cast bullet for long range and hunting to 200 yards then the 311299 is the best readily available choice. With a slow burning powder such as RL19, AA4350, H4831SC or RL22 you can push to 2000 fps with excellent accuracy fairly easily. With a little more technique you can push to 2200 fps and maintain hunting accuracy to 200 yards. At 2000 - 2100 fps the 311299 will remain sonic and hold accuracy to 500+ yards.

As already mentioned the 10" twist will stabilize the 250 - 300 gr cast also at 1600 - 1800+ fps. They will do well to 500+ yards at 1800 fps also.

However, If you really want to get 2200 - 2600 fps with accuracy from a cast bullet then do as pdawg shooter suggests; take up PPing.

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

I was waiting for The Hammer Of Reality to come falling, Larry put it right in perspective.

First, you won't get 2600 fps out of a 250-grain boolit in the '06 without exceeding design pressure. Second, you won't get that sort of velocity and still hit the berm unless your boolits approach 35 bhn and are composed of a very tough alloy, both of which preclude hunting effectiveness with cast. Third, you won't hit the berm anyway.

We may argue about why accuracy is difficult to impossible maintain above certain predictable velocities (RPM [velocity/rifling twist rate], boolit imbalance affecting flight path especially at long range, launch conditions, land pressure, boolit damage, loading techniques, etc.) but one indisputable fact remains that there IS a factor or combination of factors that makes the goals outlined here cause some smiles and gentle head-shaking. VERY few people are able to approach even 2400 fps with 180-grain boolits in a ten-twist '06 with anything resembling accuracy with hunting-grade alloy.

Now, if you do what Nobade and Pdawg suggest, you WILL be able to shoot past 500 yards with at least a 200-grain boolit at 24-2500 fps and maintain 1.5 MOA or better (depending on how steep the learning curve is for you, your tooling, and your general accuracy loading knowledge). See the "Smokeless Paper Patching" sub-forum and read all the stickes there for a good primer. Pdawg, Nobade, and I all have a good bit of experience launching accurate, fast, heavy, soft boolits from '06s and it isn't rocket science if you know a few techniques we've developed. If that isn't enough, you didn't bring enough rifle and should consider some of the comments above about bigger bores.

Gear

[btroj]

If good accuracy was possible at those velocities the jacketed bullet would have never been invented.

[Will]

Try the 311284 with 40 - 50 gr 4831. At 40gr mine start to keyhole at about 400yds. to 50gr is a pretty stout load but will maintain accuracy futher if your alloy can hold up to the velocity. I have forgotten what vel and press these produce but are good loads.

[NVScouter]

Well I think I'll buy a 200g mold and give it a go. If not then a 338-06 or 35 Whelen conversion will be in the cards. I wanted to buy an action wrench anyways for it and a couple M77s that are on my "to-do" list.

I have a lot of irons in the fire now so I doubt learning paperpatching is realistic this year. My hunting season this year in WY will be as a Non-Res so I wont be able to afford the big ticket tags. So lots of varminting, small game, and target plinking are my future. Who knows I'm fickel and that rolling block may be my next sweatheart. The only 45/70s I've had were both pistols and I didnt care for either. I'm sure a 12lb rifle will be a different story, and the idea of a 400+ grain boolit sure is sexy.

[NVScouter]

If good accuracy was possible at those velocities the jacketed bullet would have never been invented.

I got good accuracy out of my 303 at 2100fps over 3031 and a 165 GC LEE with my lube(checked my data last night). I know not the weight I'm looking for but velocity is right in there. Its very powder specific however.

[swheeler]

the 30-06's case neck is .8461 long and the LEE 230 1.363 long. Making maximum seating depth that leaves .5169 of boolit for a minimum OAL of 3.011. Thats esimating since I havent see a spec drawing with measurements. Most data I find shows an COAL of 3.33-3.250 for the 30-06.

NOE is 1.335 long with .460 from GC to crimp groove. Thats a COAL of 3.3691, any idea about chambering/seating issues?

better trim those case necks:)

[NVScouter]

better trim those case necks:)

Oops does .38461 sound better!:drinks: Good catch, that what posting from an iphone gets ya.

It also shows both boolits most likely will be seated with the bases in the case.

[swheeler]

Oops does .38461 sound better!:drinks: Good catch, that what posting from an iphone gets ya.

It also shows both boolits most likely will be seated with the bases in the case.

Yep much better, just wanted to make sure you trimmed before necks got so long they came out the muzzle!:) I think you will find post 21 by Larry Gibson to be spot on, sound advice as usual.

[1Shirt]

I buy what Larry and Gear have posted. Someplace along the line with cast in a 30 cal(regardless of what 30 cal), there is the factor of reality. I have a HP 311284 that Buckshot did for me, that I have not had a chance to wring out. I suspect however that it will shoot well to the levels that Larry states, and maybe be a bit more accurate than the plain nose version. Am of the belief that a HP will stablize better at long range in the hands of a good shooter. Just my opinion.
1Shirt!

[NVScouter]

Well I have a Lyman 311284 on the way and since I'm already paying shipping I bought the LEE-90362 113g 30 cal FP for varmints/trainig loads.

I think a 210-220g going 2200fps will meet my needs quite well.

I loaded up some LEE-CTL-160 that come out 174g gaschecked, double lubed (pan lubed then LLA), and sized to .309. I just moved and realized I left lots of my reloading stuff for my second trip here in Utah. Good thing I found a spare press, 2 more RCBS and 1 more Lyman 30-06 die sets and other spare stuff to get a reloading kit together. My powder measure didnt make it so my spare scale and the three LEE dippers I own where what I had. I also brainfarted and put a heavy crimp on them. My good batch of boolits are in Utah but my seconds made it so I used those, not the best casts I've done but I have a couple hundred made/sized/checked/lubed. Over my Chrono @ 15y here is what I got.

3031=2177fps
2400=1691
Unique=1897

The 3031 was promising but I only made three and they were about 10" low @100 yards. I estimate they were about a 4" group. I need to retry this one.

2400 gave me about 4" @50y and least FPS.

Unique gave me 2" @50y, 3.5" @100 and were still on rocks at 200 and 300 yards once I got the drop figured out. I made another 25 last night without the crimp to try again.

No leading so far and I'm going to keep shooting until I get any. I'm looking forward to deeper lube grooves in the Lyman coming.

[Marlin Junky]

If I want to do 2500 fps with the medium and small bores, I wrap the boolits in onion skin. 2000 fps is all I can expect from the 180-200 grain '06s from a 1:10" twist when using heat treated WW metal (while maintaining 1-1.5 MOA) but the Pb-Sn-Cu alloys with very slow powders might get you more speed. The one exception that I own is an early 336 Marlin in 30-30 with a very long throat. It has a 1:10 twist and only four grooves but the lands are nearly .005" tall and very sharp. This rifle (even though it's a lil 30-30 will exceed 2200 fps with 180 grain LBTs (long nose profile to fill the throat) while burning heavy doses of H380 and 414 and still shoot 1-1.5 MOA (w/o optics). Also, if you slow down the rate of twist to 1:12 you might get a little more speed; however, the slower spinning boolit will probably be less stable in the wind (using 200+ grain boolits). Shooting cast at over 2000 fps is a juggling act that sometimes has more variables than one would anticipate; however, if you learn how to wrap your castings in onion skin, you may never need to buy another copper patched boolit.

MJ

P.S. Assuming you have a SAAMI chambered 30-'06, sizing to .309" is your first mistake.

[smokemjoe]

CBE makes a long bullet in 30 Cal. around 240 grs.

[Marlin Junky]

CBE makes a long bullet in 30 Cal. around 240 grs.

Now you're talking, that's like a 530 grain 45. Now if one can push that to 1800-1900 fps with a 10 twist, it should do very well at long range (assuming the BC is high).

MJ

[GabbyM]

Accurate Moulds has some long 230 and 240 gain flat nose bullets listed in there catalogue. He lath cuts moulds so a flat nose is on all his bullets. You can spec nose and body diameters to fit your barrel. That would be a good start. One of the 311299 copy moulds from NOE in a four acvity would be a great asset.

I’m working with a Lyman 314299 in my 30-06. New project I’m just starting.
Barrel on this new Win M70 is a bit funky. They are hammer forged so you know they won’t be like a button rifled barrel. Muzzle end is a tight .300 x .308”. At the chamber end a .302” bullet nose drops right in. Was initially a little worried I’d got a dud barrel on this new rifle. Most worries melted away when I took it shooting. Ran four different style boollets though it over 28 grains of RL7. All shot great. From 160 to 200 grains. NO smoke and super clean bore. Thus we are off to the races. Bore must be a decreasing diameter tapper from back to front.

I’ve on order some IMR 7828 in long stick and SSC. Along with some Rem 9 ½ Magnum primers. From the fired brass it looks like a .312” boolit body will work. If the nose of my Lyman 314299 is tight I’ll size it to fit. B.C. of a Lyman 311299 is .377. So It’s not to shabby for a boolit. I’ve around ten 30 caliber moulds so I’ll work with them to start. With the IMR 7828 a pressure of 40,000 psi should be around 2,300 fps with the 205 grain 314299. If I can shoot the 205 gain bullet that fast I’ll not be looking for a heavier bullet.

Am seriously liking the 30-06 caliber. Managed to pick up a few hundred Rem once fired cases from Powder Valley before the madness. Have been waiting eleven days for two different stores to ship supplies. They emailed the day I ordered to say they were running two weeks behind. Must admit to being part of the problem. As I was filling out my order I just clicked on everything I might want.

My general purpose load for this rifle out to 200 yards will be a 150 to 180 grain bullet. Probably over a charge of AA 4064 or RL7. Keeping pressure down in the low 30’s. For long barrel life and pleasant shooting. This new FN Win 70 is a soft shooter. With a nice cushy recoil pad and good stock lines. I shot some full house 180 grain J bullet loads and they weren’t hard at all. Less kick than my Weatherby in 270 Win with it’s horrible configured walnut stock.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I have been using the Lyman 314299 in my M91 Argentine over 42 grains IMR 4350 for some time. ~ It is a good bullet.

Good morning,
Forrest

[Marlin Junky]

Gentlemen;

I have been using the Lyman 314299 in my M91 Argentine over 42 grains IMR 4350 for some time. ~ It is a good bullet.

Good morning,
Forrest

Forrest,

Using it for long range silhouette matches? Do you know the velocity of that 42 grain load (sounds pretty fast)?

MJ

[FAsmus]

Marlin Junky;

Not competitively - just for my own enjoyment up with the fellows with their Buffalo Guns.

I used to shoot the big single shots all the time myself but I got tired of the involved, time consuming casting/reloading procedures and returned to my first love: Old military rifles - which mainly means a return to 30 caliber.

The 7.65x53 works well with the "heavy" load of 4350 and the bullet remains supersonic out to our furthest target of 834 yards, thus reducing the transonic wind-drift problem to tolerable levels.

I did modify the M91 to have a good Redfield aperture front and Lyman tall-staff M48 receiver sight for this shooting. Otherwise it still wears full military wood.

Good morning,
Forrest

[NVScouter]

Well The 224g @ 1600fps shot into an inch at 100 yards.............just four inches to the right and 10" low. I'm going to bump up the powder a bit and try some R7 to close that gap.

My real shocker was the Lee 113 that comes out 124g lubed/checked and was a bullseye magnet. At 30y it shot 3/4" low 50 was about 1/2" low and 100 clumped all 5 into the bull. I ran out after of my test loads but I see at least 50 in my future to see how far out they will go. Good for rabbits to antelope I'm thinking. They are leaving the barrel at 2,100fps and should do fine if the range is right. virualy no real recoil and minor barrel jump for a supreme training load.

I need to see if I can duplicate that 124g load in my 308s.

[felix]

My standard 308 load with the Lee 113F is 23 grains N120. Visual trajectory suggests circa 2100 fps. The barrel is a 12 twist Number 1 contour at 22 inches. Shotgun shells are graveyard dead at a hunnert. ... felix

[45bpcr]

Here's a 100yd group shot with a NOE 311247 cast with #2 alloy and lubed with Lyman black moly.
Winchester cases, Rem primers, 44 grains of IMR 4350.
Bullet was seated into the lands.
Rifle was an old Winchester M-70 Marksman with a 12X unertl scope.

I didn't chrono the load.

45bpcr

60565

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Well, if we're going to post brag groups here is one from my load book;

60659

Iron sights from the bench @ 100 yards. The load, if the picture isn't big enough to read, is the 314299 load.

Good morning,
Forrest

PS: Felix - It is always good to see your stuff. How does the little 120 grain pill shoot at 600+?

F

[felix]

Forrest, that would have to be a joke. Tell me it ain't so, though, so I won't have to go to my fish stories. ... felix

[runfiverun]

oooohhh fishing story's. :lol:
i like fishin and huntin story's,let me get a chair,my knees wont take cross legged on the floor no more.

[FAsmus]

Felix;

If you can read the date on that data sheet it makes it more credible ~ Namely it was five years ago when I could see a bit better than I do now.

That item is the typical brag group: it was fired for real but I never got a repeat at that level of accuracy. The rifle/load will consistently shoot into 5x1.500, hot, cold or indifferent.

My real happiness is that is does it with a $3.00 Numrich Arms replacement surplus barrel. This old issue tube is 0.3025 in the bore, 0.3125 in one groove and 0.314 in the other. I lube the 0.3122 bullets and seat the GC in my 0.314 die.

Good morning,
Forrest

[felix]

Yeah, Forrest, my barrel on my 308W is so good that it shoots dead 5+ birds off of a light pole's cross member at left angle to the line of sight! The intelligent cruse missile was the 311291 shot with 7 grains 700X. The dang boolit went into the pole (or crossmember itself) somewhere and took a sharp turn upon hitting something solid within, or exploded entirely, or set up a certain frequency in the cross member that the birds couldn't handle. About 80 yards or so. ... felix

[FAsmus]

Felix;

My tall-tail is how I once killed a Meadow Lark at 834 yards with a single shot from my old two-groove M1917 Enfield.

It was a nice Spring morning; calm, fairly warm with bright sunshine.

I think I may have said something about the Enfield in this thread ~ anyway, all it has is an old Redfield on the back and a Lyman 17A on the front. Naturally you can't see a Meadow Lark at all from 800 yards so I used a spotting scope. ~ There he was; sitting on top of our target.

I settled the M1917 on my cross-stick rest. I took careful aim, edging my sight picture slightly high from holding dead-center on the target. I fired and, moving to my spotting scope to watch the arrival of my bullet at the target (time of flight is 2 seconds). The bullet got there and the Lark vanished in a burst of feathers.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[1Shirt]

Cant match the meadowlark with a 17, but I once killed a starling with a golf ball that was sitting on a rock on the edge of a water hazzard. It was about an 80 yard shot, and I caught a lot of ribbing about it. It was a clean slice! Never was much of a golfer!
1Shirt!

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I was waiting for Felix to comment - he must be busy.

Tall-tails are worth composing and sharing for the fun of it ~ the secret being that they must have an element of truth or interest fades quickly.

In this one, the shot was actually made and the Lark a goner .. What I didn't mention was my shot was on our 4x4 steel silhouette. What this does is shatter the bullet upon impact and the fragments did the number on the bird. Even at 834 yards this was just a normal shot and hit on the steel.

Good morning,
Forrest

[felix]

Naw, Forrest, just lost, looking at other posts and just laying down napping. Yes, the jokes have to be true to be written as believable as fact. The fact is that something extraordinary happened and the EXACT details of EXACTLY how it did happen is unimportant. I love to hear these stories!

Stories like shooting flying geese parallel to a car window going 80 mph is not a joke on reality because it has been done more than once for show and tell purposes. My brother (one out of six) is gifted in knowing the 30-06 trajectory and judging target distance better than most can imagine. Just born with it. ... felix

[NVScouter]

Well 42g of 4350 over the 2884 shot 1.5" at 50y on 3X and 7" at 100y on 9X. I think the Bauche and Lomb 3-9 may be suspect at this time. It is shooting centered with the other loads.

To compare I shot the 3 Nosler custom comp 168s over the same 4350 on 3X at 50y for a .68 group. Should be about 1.4" at 100 not too bad. So I know the rifle can do better, I think I need to pull the stock, rings, bolt and do a bit more work. Lap the rings, add a spacer in teh stock's rear stock mount, add some epoxy. IF that doesnt do it time for a 35 or 375 barrel I guess.

[FAsmus]

Felix;

There you are!

It has been cold and windy around here for some weeks.

I used this winter to build inventory for the summer-to-come. By now I have pretty much all the 7mm and 30 caliber bullets that I'll need ready to go once the weather breaks.

I did some work on my M1908 Brazilian too - as modified in its hack-saw stock and replacement 7x57 barrel last week. The sights are an old 1920s tall-staff Lyman 48 (backwards-seeming adjustments instead of the now-used left hand threads). The problem was that the Lyman 17A in front was too high and I'd run out of threads before reaching the 834 yard target. I cut off 0.100 off the bottom of the sight, re-installed it and last week was the first chance to check the work.

No too-tall this time. I just did the arithmetic, moved the rear sight the "correct" amount to account for the lowered front sight ~ and got a hit on our 350 yard target with the first shot out of the cold, clean barrel.

The change allowed the rifle to reach out all the way to 800 with no need to add my sight-extenders too, which was the idea in the first place.

It is a shame the issue barrel was scrap. It is still fun to shoot but I can't enter it in any of the CBA Military postals.

Good morning,
Forrest

[NVScouter]

This 30-06 that is acting very wierd, and I'm thinking its mechanical now instead of my cast loads. I moved this from Gunsmithing forum for more visability.

I have started using the IMR4350 data I got in this thread. I loaded 40 rounds, much more recoil with these as they are a calculated (not verified) 2300fps.

I suspected my scope/mounts/etc. So new weaver high tension rings and Pentax scope, I also hone my trigger a bit more so its a nice smooth 5.5lbs. Last night I headed back out and shot this at 50y with the same lot of 224s. I shot 6 rounds of site in first at 20y to get the scope close, cooled the rifle then shot. Heck yeah!
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f10/NVScouter/march213001.jpg

Backed off to 100y while the rifle cooled down to slightly warm (these loads didnt cause much heat FYI). Took a good rest over the truck bed and shot 3 rounds. Opened the rifle to cool and walked to the target [smilie=b:, Ok its gotta me be me right? I check for leading...nope. Loose mounts...nope. Shoot 3 more [smilie=b:[smilie=b: Out of ammo but I dont think any more would do much good.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f10/NVScouter/march213002.jpg

I get it home and stip it thinking maybe rust in the firing pin or hang up (I think I felt some the last few shots). I pull it all apart, looks great no rust in the bolt or any leading. The only thing I keep coming back to is the rear reciever bolt sits pretty high and after a dozen rounds settles in and may I can slightly feel it whle working the bolt.

I got to work on it more the next day. I cleaned it like no tomorrow...zero leading 15 patches and its clean. Tried two patches of Sweets 7.62, no real blue color so no copper fouling. I added a brass bushing to the rear stock screw so it will bottom out on the bushing and hold instead of continuing to settle. I also expoy bedded the front lug/first 1.5" of barrel where it tapers, rear lug, magazine well, and rear action mating surface. No more fit issues to blame.

The only time I've ever had stabilization issues was trying to throw .25 120s in my 250-3000. They shot just as bad at 50y as at 100y. I cant imagine these lyman 224gs shooting good at 50 and then lose stabilization by 100y.

Any diagnosing is apreciated.

I need interpreitation of my groups as its really ticking me off, and I'm sure its something simple.

[dverna]

NV

Three shot groups do not tell much. "Luck" can produce a bragging group. I prefer using 10 shot groups for that reason.

I find this a interesting thread as I am putting together a cast .308 "sniper" rifle. Terminal ballistics are not important to me as I will not be using the gun for hunting. I have the 311365 GB bullet (199 gr) and just ordered a .309" die from lathesmtih - thinking that being .002" over bore may be too much with harder alloys. Yesterday I received a ton (hopefully it will not take that many bullets - LOL) of "hardball" alloy to produce a bullet that can be pushed fairly hard. I have a few hundred lbs. of Linotype as well. I am also following the thread on Cu in the melt to achieve tougher bullets.

This is likely just a "waste of my time". I could buy 175 SMK's and be shooting effectively to 1000 yards a heck of a lot easier than trying to get a decent 600 yard cast bullet load. Still, it will keep me occupied and challenge my little pea brain now than I am retired and need an outlet.

I liked the comment from another poster earlier in the thread. For hunting, you can buy a few hundred jacketed bullets (that will last a lifetime) that will do the job easily without the journey . But any yahoo can do that; so that is what makes this kind of stuff interesting.

Good luck NV and use more shots to determine real accuracy. Start with three shots. If they group, fire another 7. I know it takes time but it more fun than loading. Then you want to measure 5 - 10 shot groups to know if you really have something. We can get a 3 or 5 shot "wallet groups" with almost any load if we throw enough rounds downrange.

[geargnasher]

NV Scouter, you're up in to the velocity territory where strange things happen and you need to start dissecting your casting and loading techniques carefully with the right things in mind to fix in order to get a measure of consistency back into your groups.

What is your loaded chamber neck clearance?
What is your loaded boolit runout?
Does the boolit nose fit the throat?
Is your cartridge pointing directly at the muzzle center when loaded?
Is the boolit pointed directly at the muzzle center the ENTIRE trip from case to freedom?
Is your alloy up to the task?
Is your lube up to the task? (I don't mean leading, I mean does it leave the bore condition consistent each shot and jettison from the grooves the same way each shot, or does it build and purge oils/waxes every few shots?)
Is your muzzle pressure too high?
Is your ignition consistent?
Are your case necks of uniform thickness?
Are your castings void-free?
Are your boolit bases perfectly square when they leave the muzzle, or did they get messed up during launch?
What does your pressure curve look like, is it gentle to a high peak and then plummeting before the boolit exits, or is it too high too soon, or too high too late?
How does your boolit's sized diameter compare to the rifle's throat entrance?

Those are a few things to think about while you're pondering what happened (believe me, I've given many a target the "what the.....huh???" look, too before!) and when you work out the basics and get the patterns down to recognizable groups, some fine-tuning of burn curve to the harmonics of the gun and boolit should get you into the final MOA territory.

Or, drop back to a load that gives you about 16-1800 fps and things will be much easier.

Gear

[runfiverun]

start with the first 4 on gears list, it get's easier after that.

you forgot neck tension.:lol:

[geargnasher]

DOH! Right you are.

Gear

[FAsmus]

Nevada;

The 50 yard shooting is of limited value for load development or for testing rifle performance. Also, like the other fellows say, three shot groups are of marginal statistical importance.

For "real" testing try shooting four or five consecutive five shot groups at 100 yards and average them. I have found that I don't have the patience to shoot or load for 10 shot groups ~ this my solution.

Then, of 1st priority, give up shooting off a truck bed! Such an unstable/unsuitable rest will either show you erroneous good performance with a marginal load or blow the good loads so badly that you'll never look at them again.

As an aside, unless you've already done this, try figuring the rifle first without stepping off into a serious velocity search ~ which as "Gear" says is a serious project all by itself.

In the 30'06 shoot something of proven performance to work-up/verify the rifle's capabilities. Then go for speed.

An all-time favorite is 21 grains SR 4759 and pretty much any 180 - 220 grain bullet.

Good morning,
Forrest

[303Guy]

Gentlemen;

Well, if we're going to post brag groups here is one from my load book;

60659

Iron sights from the bench @ 100 yards. The load, if the picture isn't big enough to read, is the 314299 load.

Good morning,
Forrest

PS: Felix - It is always good to see your stuff. How does the little 120 grain pill shoot at 600+?

F
OK, I just gotta stop here and marvel. That's not a very clearly defined target so to aim it that good is the real show of skill to me. Sure, the rifle is doing amazing but aiming it like that is truly amazing! Good one!

45bpcr, what calibre is that rifle?

Just an observation made from these boast groups and fluke stories; 4350 is the powder being quoted. Now I like 4350 but what I'm seeing here is that is really is a good powder. And I want to know more about this 800 yard shooting.

I have this 303 No4 with uneven grooves and lands which also happens to be a little 'dark'. I am wanting to do long range shooting with it and was beginning to think it not possible but now I see a glimmer of hope. This rifle has the micro-adjust peep sight which is why I want it for long range but it has no windage adjustment so maybe not so good an idea anyway.

[303Guy]

Good post by geargnasher.
Are your castings void-free?

That one I can show and tell.

65902

It's not the one I was looking for, that one had a smaller pin hole which, like the one above showed no surface holes.

[NVScouter]

Boolit run out results:
Nose: .2995 rotate 90* .3005 tested 5 times with my calipers
Front band: .309 rotate 90* .30895
Middle band: same as first
Rear band: .309 rotate 90* .3070

So I have some run out and I may need to lap my mould and sizing die most likely. But mold first since the boolit barely touches the die going through.

[NVScouter]

I just loaded 15 more rounds for 3 5 shot groups after I finish a couple things at work.

I was shooting 46g of IMR4350 with the 211284 lubed checked at 224g seated/crimped to the front of the middle driving band. These boolits are from the same batch but loaded with 40g of IMR4350 and seated to just past the rear of the middle driving band, no crimp. No military cases used this time. I barely flared the neck and have solid neck tension.

All cases were done en mass from both loads, FL sized, trimmed, necks chamfered, primer pockets cleaned in citrus w/ultrasonic cleaner. CCI LR primers. Mixed headstamp with some military cases.

I seated one to the front of the rear band and it fed from the magazine and chanbered easily...guess my throat is bigger than i thought. I'll have to explore that later.

[runfiverun]

that is where you need to start actually.
from the case neck/shoulder junction for about 1/2"-5/8" forward is your critical area.
you HAVE to concentrate on this area of your rifle.

[FAsmus]

Nevada;

NV: I was shooting 46g of IMR4350 with the 211284 lubed checked at 224g seated/crimped to the front of the middle driving band.

F: Arrgh! Don't crimp a cast bullet in a bottle-neck rifle case! (30 WCF might be an exception)

NV: These boolits are from the same batch but loaded with 40g of IMR4350 and seated to just past the rear of the middle driving band, no crimp. No military cases used this time. I barely flared the neck and have solid neck tension.

All cases were done en mass from both loads, FL sized, trimmed, necks chamfered, primer pockets cleaned in citrus w/ultrasonic cleaner. CCI LR primers. Mixed head stamp with some military cases.

F: You're going to lots of trouble there with mixed lots, especially mixing commercial with military brass. This high velocity long range shooting is demanding enough to easily justify buying 100 bran-new cases.

NV: I seated one to the front of the rear band and it fed from the magazine and chanbered easily...guess my throat is bigger than i thought. I'll have to explore that later.

F: This factor is a big deal. The very next time you begin the seating operation figure out exactly where the origin of rifling is in your rifle. ~ I seat to show initial engraving on the front bullet driving band. Other shooters use slightly different techniques but the point is to know where the origin is!

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

303Guy;

303: OK, I just gotta stop here and marvel. That's not a very clearly defined target so to aim it that good is the real show of skill to me. Sure, the rifle is doing amazing but aiming it like that is truly amazing! Good one!

F: Thanks.

Really though, it is a "wallet" or"brag" group. The average for five, five shot groups that day was 1.443. ~ Still not bad for an old full military beater.

45BPCR: What caliber is that rifle?

F: That is a 7.65x53 Belgian on the M1891 Argentine Mauser.

303: Just an observation made from these boast groups and fluke stories; 4350 is the powder being quoted. Now I like 4350 but what I'm seeing here is that is really is a good powder. And I want to know more about this 800 yard shooting.

F: Our range is blessed with steel silhouette targets from 350 (the offhand) on out to 834 yards. The targets are of various shapes and sized fairly in accordance with their distance.

Distances are irregular; things like 395 yds, 440, 470, 552, 606, 648, 670, and the last at 834. The distances are set for convince of accessibility, not the usual round-figure distances.

Cast bullets only.

303: I have this 303 No4 with uneven grooves and lands which also happens to be a little 'dark'. I am wanting to do long range shooting with it and was beginning to think it not possible but now I see a glimmer of hope. This rifle has the micro-adjust peep sight which is why I want it for long range but it has no windage adjustment so maybe not so good an idea anyway.

F: The Argentine that did the shooting in question was a terribly neglected "finder" rifle from someone's barn in eastern Wyoming. I looked it over (back in 1980) saw that the barrel was hopeless and bought a new Argentine barrel from Numrich for $3.00 + shipping. I had the local gun-runner remove the old and screw in the new for me and found that the darn thing did very well.

This barrel is an odd one - having uneven rifling like your uneven grooves. My bore is 0.3025 with one groove at 0.3122 and the other at 0.3135. (if memory serves). Anyway it is far from symmetrical. The bullets have never seemed to care. It shot well from the day it was rebarreled and shoots as well as I can see the sights these days.

I had a Mk4 No1 and liked it very much as a piece of history. I fired it for a time over the long range silhouettes but it never did well. No matter what I did there were always too many flyers for the particular shooting games we enjoy around here. I returned to things like my M1903 Springfield, the M1917 Enfield and of course the M1891 Argentine.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[NVScouter]

Well I shot those 15 and learned somethings.

Since I had the stock off I started back at 50y. My first 5 rounds went into a big oval 5" group. I then shot som of the bulk 124g cast that has shot great before and got a less oval but similar size group. Also the first 5 rounds of heavy 211284 had a Q shape. So not enough velocity to stabilize, plus the 1 hangfire was enough to convince me.

So I had 10 more rounds to blow so I stayed at 50y for pure trigger time.
SOB every shot kept getting closer to center. Out of 10 rounds 6 were in a .90 group. No Q tails on any of these.
I had a barrel once in .308 that only was worth a damn dirty. I'm thinking this one may b the same. I'm returning the new Pentax since the eye relief is too short (it has potential with heavy loads to be painfully too short!).
I'm going to move to 44g of 4350 and neck size only next batch.

[geargnasher]

Not enough velocity to stabilize, you say. Perhaps you should revisit that thought.

Lots of us have rifles that don't shoot well clean with certain loads. One of the reasons some of us never clean their bores unless we positively have to.

Gear

[NVScouter]

My Unique loads(fast powder)@1600fps did well but the slow IMR4350 loads need more velocity.

I also found that I can easily push a boolit to the first driving band in the muzzle. Hardware store was closed today so I couldn't buy any lapping compound. Do you reblue a mold after lapping?

[runfiverun]

no it will turn gold then finally blue on it's own, like a set of chrome headers.

[FAsmus]

Nevada;

Why are you considering lapping the mold?

The nose is supposed to be a slip-fit in the muzzle!

The place you need to research is the origin of rifling. How does the bullet fit there? Where should you set your over-all length such that accuracy results?

I personally think you're on the wrong track with 4350 in the 30'06. Try something like 32 - 34 grains 4895 instead. This is research and testing you know .. check it out.

Good morning,
Forrest

[NVScouter]

Thanks I'm thinking about moving away from 4350. But I did lap the bands and the first 1/3 of the nose slightly for roundness. I have a pretty even .3995/.310 band surface now and I'm going to try and get something to engage the rifling at the throat via dummy rounds. Then ill sort brass neck size and try again.

[Seabee1960]

MT Gianni is right on the money.... RCBS 30-180-FN cast with straight linotype on top of 29 grains of AA2230 is my favorite .30 cal cast boolit load. great in 30-06 great in 30-40 Krag MV just south of 2000 FPS in a 26" barrel.

I have an 1886 Winchester lever in 45-70 and I will tell you that to get long range performance you need to load those 400 + grain monsters up to the point where they are painful to shoot. Same with the Sharps replica I owned years ago. I am not a small man and still the 45. cal cartridges loaded to MV past 1400 FPS kick my big old butt.

The smaller the diameter bullet the trickier paper patching becomes. I would suggest a good lube stiff lube like Jake's purple cresin ( you will need a lube heater for your sizer) from Jake's products and a muzzel velocity no more than 2000 FPS will give you top cast bullet performance. I cant say enought good things about the RCBS 30-180-FP bullet.

[runfiverun]

siiiiGGGGHHHHH.

[Chicken Thief]

Scouter;

"Anything in Wyoming" could mean big Bears, bigger Moose, large-enough Elk and even Buffalo for those so moved ~ as well as the common run of lighter game.

If a fellow is planning on hunting all with cast bullets there comes a certain difficulty when a man needs a Deer/Antelope rifle more often than one suited for heavy or dangerous game.

Two rifles might be considered here - a 30 caliber shooting a HT HP bullet in excess of 2000 ft/sec and - say - a 35 Whelen on a M1917 action for everything else.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Maybe some of this?
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Meandeer_zpsb41f6584.jpg

[kbstenberg]

NVScouter in post 66 you said you used mold # 211284. Did you mean mold # 311284?

[NVScouter]

NVScouter in post 66 you said you used mold # 211284. Did you mean mold # 311284?

Yup I sure did

[NVScouter]

I cast to hunt so Lino Is out of the question. Ill move to a new mold/rifle/barrel before changing alloy. It also has to feed, extract, and carry well.

[geargnasher]

siiiiGGGGHHHHH.

I know.

Gear

[NVScouter]

So I think this rifles new name is Linda Lovelace. To get this boolit to just touch the forward band I have to seat to the front of the rear band. At this length they won't feed from even the most generous LA magazine.

[FAsmus]

Nevada;

This is the reason they didn't shoot well at the short length.

You may have to feed them one at a time - no big deal unless you're big-game hunting.

I just bet you'll find more consistent accuracy with the longer overall length.

Good morning,
Forrest

[NVScouter]

Morning Forest!

Well I'm going to make 10 rounds of each with some more powders and run it dirty and a nice variety of load depths. However that will probobly be my last real shot at cast in this configuration.

I've been wanting to to use Jes Reboring for awhile and I have a Ruger M77 Varmint 24" that may get the 338 Fed or 358 WIN treatment. A .338 or .358 in the 200-250g range at 2000fps still meets my needs. I can also choose my twist/throat length, and send a dummy boolit round with it. Then if that comes out well maybe a 375/400 Whelen, or just buy this CZ 375 H&H that keeps staring at me or a 45-70.

I'll throw out one more range report this weekend, who knows I may luck into a sweet spot. The Lyman 311284 is one of the longest .30 boolits so if the throat is too long for that I doubt it'll do much better with another mold.

[Nobade]

JES has a nice looking sporterized 1903 listed right now on Gunbroker, rebored to 375 Whelen....

-Nobade

[bearcove]

If I had dies......