New revolver

[Tatume]

Hi Folks,

I’m in the admirable position of probably getting a new Freedom Arms Model 97 revolver in 41 Remington Magnum in the near future. I’m downsizing my rifle collection because they won’t all fit in the safe, and I’m getting more and more uncomfortable having some of them not secured. Anyway, I can’t decide between the 4-1/4” and 5-1/2” barrels. I own both sizes in Ruger and USFA revolvers, and I still can’t make up my mind. I’d like to hear thoughts from you guys.

Thanks, Tom

[BCRider]

To me the sighting length of the shorter barrel lengths marks them as closer distance guns. Like out to maybe 30 to 50 yards for typical use. Meanwhile the 7.5'ish inch lengths marks them as being more suitable for use out to around 50 to 75 yards.

The shorter guns will certainly shoot out to the longer ranges. It's more about you and the sights being more in tune for the distances involved.

So what are you thinking that this shiney new .41Mag would be used for? And I'd like to officially say that I'm envious of your being able to spend that much mad money on a single gun. I've never even seen, let along fondled, an FA revolver. I can only try to guess at how fine they much look and operate.

[cbrick]

Since it sounds like you don't yet have it you have no idea how happy you are about to be.

Were it me I would go for the longest barrel you can get. Since it's pretty doubtful this will be a concealed carry gun the added barrel length won't be a hindrance. What BCRider says about sight radius is very true though I differ with him on the ranges he mentions, with a good sight radius that is an excellent 200 meter revolver. I know, I do it.

Since it's the model 97 unless you have very small hands I highly recommend getting Pachmeyer grips. If you don't like the looks of the Pachmeyer's fine, put the wood back on to show it off and the Pachmeyer's on it to shoot it. It will make a huge difference in both handling recoil AND accuracy.

Congratulations.

Rick

[snowwolfe]

For me, a 5 1/2 inch barrel is as close to perfect as possible so that would be my choice.
Don't forget, you can buy another safe:)

[Tatume]

Hi Folks,

The 210 gr Lee Tumble Lube is only mold I have for the 41 Mag. I'd like to get new mold for a somewhat heavier bullet. I use a 320 gr LBT LFN GC in my Model 83, and I like the bullet style. If I have Veral make another for the 41, what weight do you suggest? I'm thinking anywhere from 220 gr (lighter, to keep recoil under control) to 250 gr (heavier, for better performance on game).

Thanks for the conversation.

Take care, Tom

[ebner glocken]

The 41 will be fine with either 5.5 or 7.5. As far as one being suitable for 30-75 yards, that is in the skill of the shooter much more than 2 inches of barrel length. Longer sighting radius is a nice thing but hardly everything. Those 7.5s are a tad uncomfortable while driving the 5.5 is much different by not jabbing in my ribs. A number of years ago I used a sierra 170 JHC with 24.0 of 296 that would splat on a steel out to 200 if I did my part with much consistancy fired out of a 6" desert eagle or a 5 inch ruger BH.

If it were me I would go with the one that balences the best and feels the best to me, either length will group well if you do your part.

Ebner

[LAH]

For me, a 5 1/2 inch barrel is as close to perfect as possible so that would be my choice.
Don't forget, you can buy another safe:)

+++++1++++++

[44man]

LONG for sure. I get nothing less then 7-1/2" for primary hunting guns. 6" would be my shortest.

[cbrick]

LONG for sure. I get nothing less then 7-1/2" for primary hunting guns. 6" would be my shortest.

Yep, I have a 5 1/2 inch 44 Spl but that is my plinking, just cause it's fun revolver. When I want to reach out and touch something my Goldie Locks revolvers are just right, not too short, not too long, 7 1/2" to 10".

Rick

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

...If I have Veral make another for the 41, what weight do you suggest? I'm thinking anywhere from 220 gr (lighter, to keep recoil under control) to 250 gr (heavier, for better performance on game).

Thanks for the conversation.

Take care, Tom
I have a 255 gr. Ranch Dog mold in 41.
I really like it in my 7.5" RH.
I don't think it's too heavy at all.
Ranch Dog put larger tumble lube grooves on this,
I have lubed them with a Lubesizer using White Label Lube "BAC"
Jon

[Tatume]

Hi Jon,

I was aware of that mold, but Ranch Dog went out of business before I could get one. Pity.

Thanks, Tom

[cbrick]

RCBS has a 210 gr SWC, if that's too light for you then there's always Accurate, Mountain Molds or LBT.

Rick

[Tatume]

Hi Rick,

Yes, I have one of the RCBS molds on my wish list at Midway, but I'm especially fond of LBT molds. I'll probably order an LFN four-banger, once I decide on the weight.

On the other hand, I have a shoe box full of 44 Special brass and a Ranch Dog 265 gr six cavity mold. That keeps nagging at me. I like the 41 Magnum, but the practical little devil keeps whispering in my ear. But, the other little devil keeps reminding me that I have a Smith and Wesson 41 Magnum revolver that I like very much also, and having a top notch mold would be useful for that gun too. Oh, the decisions!

Thanks, Tom

[longhorn]

BCRider--you should ride on down to the states sometime and play with some real revolvers--I have short barreled .45's and .454's and a .32 mag that will alter your perception of handgun accuracy at distance. Truly visible sights and fine triggers make wondrous things possible! Oh, and I'd never put Pachmayrs on a precision revolver (or Contender); they move, they shift, they change your point of impact for no apparent reason (IMHO, of course!)

[Tatume]

Hi Folks,

Will a Model 97 fit a holster made for a Colt Peacemaker or Ruger Blackhawk?

Thanks, Tom

[bob208]

buy another safe and keep your guns

[44man]

Rick is an old IHMSA shooter and knows about barrel lengths with open sights. My favorite was when one click meant a 1" change at 50 meters. Short barrels are accurate but one click would take you off target.
I wanted the one, two, three, four settings from 50 to 200 meters. A 2" to 4" barrel can never be sighted past one distance. Few open sights are fine enough. I don't know any that take settings to thousandths of an inch.
Your 4" barrel at 100 meters would be silly so it is shoot and pray because the sights can not get you on. To have one click move you 3" or more at 50 is sure fun at distance.
At least my revolvers and single shots were good with a 4" per click at 200 meters. That means a good sight and a 10" barrel.

[44man]

BCRider--you should ride on down to the states sometime and play with some real revolvers--I have short barreled .45's and .454's and a .32 mag that will alter your perception of handgun accuracy at distance. Truly visible sights and fine triggers make wondrous things possible! Oh, and I'd never put Pachmayrs on a precision revolver (or Contender); they move, they shift, they change your point of impact for no apparent reason (IMHO, of course!)
Not true. It is grip shape. The S&W is sensitive as is the RH. The SRH just needs firm. The Bisley can drive you nuts. The Hog Leg is easy and consistent.
I still don't know if anyone shoots the groups I shoot but many here are close. I use rubber grips on all of my revolvers and used them on the awful TC that would beat my knuckle. Some like the MOA, Wichita, and XP were fine but I had to change the MOA lever.
My BFR's with rubber grips have all shot to 1/2" at 100 yards.
The Pachmeyer on Ruger's and the grips on BFR's ( Uncle Mikes.) are the most perfect ever for accuracy. A precision revolver is an out of box gun, Ruger or BFR and many Freedom's. Trigger job and rubber grips for all. The Freedom .475 was down to 1/2" at 50 yards once the slippery, hurting grips were changed.
I can define a precision revolver with this 50 yard group from a .500 JRH, BFR at 50 yards.

[Irascible]

Having 4 5/8, 5 1/2 and 7 1/2 Rugers. My favorites are the 5 1/2 guns, they just feel right. The 7 1/2s are more accurate because of sight radius. The 4 5/8 needed to have the rear sight notch opened up for more light on the sides of the front blade. This improved the accuracy and speed at which I could acquire the sight picture. The longer barrels did not need this as the front sight is further away from the rear thus appearing slimmer and alowing more side light.
My favorite 41 moulds are the RCBS for it's nice wide meplat and the Balista Cast "Keith" for long range.

[cbrick]

Sight radius is critical to long range revolver. Period!

No matter how much you may enjoy your snubbies (and that's fine, nothin wrong with that) you will not get the accuracy of sight picture with a short sight radius that is needed for long range. Sights are just as important as 44man mentioned, all of my silhouette (200 meter) revolvers wear Bo-Mar rear, partridge front sights. It is the only sight made that is fine enough and repeatable enough to consitently group on a 200 meter target and be able to move the group on that target. Sadly Bo-Mars are no longer made, the man that started the company and ran it died a few years ago and his family shut it down rather than continue making them. A huge loss to all of the shooting sports not just silhouette. From here on the only Bo-Mars available are used ones if you can find any.

Another company (Champion) started producing a Bo-Mar clone not long after Bo-Mar shut down but sadly it is (and there is no other way to say it) pure garbage. Incredible variation between clicks and no repeatability at all. Even sader yet was that Freedom Arms chose the Champion as their target sight once they couldn't get the ISGW sight any longer. About three years ago at the Shot Show Freedom gave me one of the Champions to evaluate. I never even put it on the gun, I set it up with a dial indicator and started measuring elevation and windage clicks and was shocked. I sent it back to Freedom along with the measurements I took and a note that said I thought they were risking their reputation of accuracy by putting these sights on their revolvers.

Any way, if your serious about long range "groups" sight radius is very important.

Rick

[ironhead7544]

Since you picked a smaller framed revolver, you want it for carrying. I would go for the shorter barrel. There is really no difference in accuracy in the two and velocity will be very close. I doubt you will want to scope it.

I used to think I could shoot better with a 6 inch than a 4 inch. But after shooting both a lot, I find I can hit just as well with the shorter barrel at 50 yards. At longer range the longer barrel helps a bit.

BTW, excellent choice of revolver and cartridge for all around carry. In a proper holster you will soon forget it is even there until you need it.

[Irascible]

Having 4 5/8, 5 1/2 and 7 1/2 Rugers. My favorites are the 5 1/2 guns, they just feel right. The 7 1/2s are more accurate because of sight radius. The 4 5/8 needed to have the rear sight notch opened up for more light on the sides of the front blade. This improved the accuracy and speed at which I could acquire the sight picture. The longer barrels did not need this as the front sight is further away from the rear thus appearing slimmer and alowing more side light.
My favorite 41 moulds are the RCBS 41-210-SWC, for it's nice wide meplat, and the Balista Cast/H&G "Keith" for long range.
As far as small grips, I have equipped my 2 New Model Blackhawk 44 revolvers with extension grips from Tim Perkes at http://timsworkshop.blogspot.com/ they add 1/2" below the grip frame and are just great. Mine are made of American Holly which looks an awful lot like Ivory.

[cbrick]

Truly visible sights and fine triggers make wondrous things possible!

Very true, my FA Silhouette revolver with Bo-Mar rear and an 8 ounce smooth as silk with zero creep trigger amazes me every time I shoot it.


Oh, and I'd never put Pachmayrs on a precision revolver (or Contender); they move, they shift, they change your point of impact for no apparent reason (IMHO, of course!)

That is beyond silly. From that comment it's fairly obvious that you are simply repeating an absurd comment that someone told you and you have no experience with them. You should actually do some serious "long range" grouping with them. There are enough Master Class State, National and International long range revolver champions that prove that comment is pure nonsense, including me.

Rick

[cbrick]

Since you picked a smaller framed revolver, you want it for carrying. I would go for the shorter barrel.


Huh? What revolver are you refering to?

Rick

[44man]

Sight radius is critical to long range revolver. Period!

No matter how much you may enjoy your snubbies (and that's fine, nothin wrong with that) you will not get the accuracy of sight picture with a short sight radius that is needed for long range. Sights are just as important as 44man mentioned, all of my silhouette (200 meter) revolvers wear Bo-Mar rear, partridge front sights. It is the only sight made that is fine enough and repeatable enough to consitently group on a 200 meter target and be able to move the group on that target. Sadly Bo-Mars are no longer made, the man that started the company and ran it died a few years ago and his family shut it down rather than continue making them. A huge loss to all of the shooting sports not just silhouette. From here on the only Bo-Mars available are used ones if you can find any.

Another company (Champion) started producing a Bo-Mar clone not long after Bo-Mar shut down but sadly it is (and there is no other way to say it) pure garbage. Incredible variation between clicks and no repeatability at all. Even sader yet was that Freedom Arms chose the Champion as their target sight once they couldn't get the ISGW sight any longer. About three years ago at the Shot Show Freedom gave me one of the Champions to evaluate. I never even put it on the gun, I set it up with a dial indicator and started measuring elevation and windage clicks and was shocked. I sent it back to Freedom along with the measurements I took and a note that said I thought they were risking their reputation of accuracy by putting these sights on their revolvers.

Any way, if your serious about long range "groups" sight radius is very important.

Rick
See how old we are getting! To see the best die off hurts. Bo-Mar was the best but I could not put them on production Ruger's.
I found the same with the TC special sights and the stupid S&W front sights. Pure junk. I would raise the front sight to find I hit higher. Never made them work.
It is so hard to explain how important the sights are along with the sight radius. Some things just don't work. Sights must have extreme machining to get such small adjustments from click to click.
Most guns have junk on them, an afterthought.

[Tatume]

Hi Folks,

Does anybody know the diameter of a Model 97 cylinder?

Thanks, Tom

[44man]

From the link below:
......."Two years ago, Freedom Arms added a .41 Magnum chambering to the Model 97 ... As such it
features a cylinder that measures 1.625 inches in length by 1.575 inches in diameter.".............

http://www.gunweek.com/2002/feature0101.html

For comparison to other makes here:

Colt SAA US Firearm Old Vaq New Vaq Old Model .357 BH
Cylinder Diameter " 1.652 1.674 1.732 1.675 1.672

Cylinder Length " 1.607 1.625 1.703 1.610 1.602

My 3rd Generation Colt SAA 44spl cylinder is 1.650" diameter and your FA 97 41 magnum would be 1.575". Interesting.

I was curious so I typed in your question to search. It seems that for every question, there is an answer out there on the internet. :)

44Man will love the first part of the article about the grips and letting her roll. ;)
I sure did laugh. The Bisley was made to STOP roll and push straighter back. It is supreme for low recoil, one hand target shooting. Roll was recognized as being wrong back then and the Bisley helped stop it. It takes strength to hold a hog leg to prevent roll. It takes rubber grips that get in between a Bisley and pure hog leg. RUBBER GRIPS CHANGE THE PROFILE just enough.
Pachmeyer's on a SBH are not pure hog leg and not pure Bisley. They are perfect for both hold and roll control. Roll is bad, you can not control barrel rise.
Roll is a crazy thing about low recoil to get the hammer closer to cock it faster. Did your thumb get short? Most speed shooters use the left thumb to cock, why do you need roll?
Roll will never go away with a few that believe in it. Just let a big bore roll on you and split your head open. Your little .45 with 700 fps loads can move around. Come shoot my .475 or .500 JRH or the .500 Linebaugh, maybe the .50 Alaskan and let it roll. Do you know what the stars are like when you get bashed?
Roll is a myth and is stupid.

[cbrick]

See how old we are getting! To see the best die off hurts. Bo-Mar was the best but I could not put them on production Ruger's.

I found the same with the TC special sights and the stupid S&W front sights. Pure junk. I would raise the front sight to find I hit higher. Never made them work.

You had to go and mention "old" didn't you? :mrgreen:

Must have been after you stopped shooting silhouette but the rules were chaned to allow after market sights on production class guns. Rule stipulates that it must fit without alteration to the firearm and as with a production gun be readily available to everyone. Good rule change because as you said, most guns were made it seems with sights as nothing more than an after thought. Bo-Mars were made to fit most revolvers, T/C's, XP's ect.

Rick

[Irascible]

So true.
I'd bet you have Dan Wessons, Rugers 10 3/4" Super Blackhawk or Freedom Arms because I don't think BoMar ever made revolver sights for anything else. Many years ago I had an 8" Dan Wesson 375 SM and a 10" 44mag Dan Wesson. I shot them all that summer one as a production gun and the other as a revolver. I kept switching back and forth and by the end of the summer the 44 out scored the 375 at just about every match, so, I sold the 375! The 44 is still with me, but now wearing a slotted 10" 445 SM shroud as it was 1 oz lighter and allowed me to use a proper, covered front sight. Now allowed, because these are now "Obsolete" guns and can use other replacement parts. Interestingly, The 10" brl and SM shroud cost as much as I paid Elgin for the new gun!

[44man]

You had to go and mention "old" didn't you? :mrgreen:

Must have been after you stopped shooting silhouette but the rules were chaned to allow after market sights on production class guns. Rule stipulates that it must fit without alteration to the firearm and as with a production gun be readily available to everyone. Good rule change because as you said, most guns were made it seems with sights as nothing more than an after thought. Bo-Mars were made to fit most revolvers, T/C's, XP's ect.

Rick
Yep, I am OLD. We fought hard for that rule and I never seen it come to pass. I had to use Ruger sights.
IHMSA is slowing and it is sad. What a great shooting sport. I still think it is from expense and rules. It is hard for a range to set up. Targets are expensive. Target setters are not cheap.

[Irascible]

A topic for another thread, but why did you stop silhouette? I'll be 70 this summer and can't wait for the season to start again. Eyes going? There are still plenty of scope classes. I am lucky, my eyes aren't what they use to be but I can, with a few acutrements (sp?), still manage iron sights. Biggest annoyence is getting up at 4AM to drive 3 hours to the range. But I remain loyal to the sport.

[doghawg]

Tatume. If you go with a 5 1/2" Mod 97 it'll look something like this..
http://www.myhostedpics.com/images/565apple/deerhunt2008036medium.jpg

[Four Fingers of Death]

Another safe is wayyyyyyyyyyyy cheaper! If most of your revolvers are 4-5 1.2" long (as mine are), one handgun in 7 1/2" is always good to have. That would be a dandy hunting handgun.

I picked up a 10 1/2" Ruger NMSBH in 44Mag. Danged thing was way too big for my pistol safe and kept knocking the alarm switch off and triggering the alarm. I tried everywhere to sell it and ended up giving it to my gunsmith mate in Sydney to lop to 7 1/2". After it had been with him a few months, a friend that I hadn't seen for a long time came up to the range and asked if he could put a sign up on the notice board. I looked at the sign and he was looking for a 10 1/2" Bbl Ruger BlackHawk!!!! I was on the phone in an instant and found that the gunsmith had chopped the barrel about an hour earlier. What started out as a cheap revolver is now an expensive revolver(well about $100 cheaper than a brand new one). But I really like it. I think everyone should own one 7 1/2" revolver and your 41 FA would be one excellent bit of kit!

[Four Fingers of Death]

Nice gun doghawg!

[kweidner]

I like 5.5 to 6 as long is its not for carry. My DW .41 mag with 6" is my favorite revolver even over my custom built smiths. I can shoot sub inch groups with it at 25 with accurates 220k. My next gun will be an FA but more likely the 83 and probably in .41 mag. I really like a full grip feel in a mag. that is the reason my 44 sbh has those ugly pachs on it. My pinky wants on the grip too. Full snort loads with small wooden grips suck. I can shoot to 100 with my 44 with the 4 5/8 consistently but it is much easier with the six inch DW.

[Tatume]

From the link below:
......."Two years ago, Freedom Arms added a .41 Magnum chambering to the Model 97 ... As such it
features a cylinder that measures 1.625 inches in length by 1.575 inches in diameter.".............

http://www.gunweek.com/2002/feature0101.html

For comparison to other makes here:

Colt SAA US Firearm Old Vaq New Vaq Old Model .357 BH
Cylinder Diameter " 1.652 1.674 1.732 1.675 1.672

Cylinder Length " 1.607 1.625 1.703 1.610 1.602

My 3rd Generation Colt SAA 44spl cylinder is 1.650" diameter and your FA 97 41 magnum would be 1.575". Interesting.

I was curious so I typed in your question to search. It seems that for every question, there is an answer out there on the internet. :)

44Man will love the first part of the article about the grips and letting her roll. ;)

It looks like a holster made for a Colt SAA should fit just fine. Thanks for the information.

[Tatume]

Tatume. If you go with a 5 1/2" Mod 97 it'll look something like this...

Thanks, I like the black micarta grips too. I have them on my 6" model 83, and will probably get another set.

[Tatume]

Another safe is wayyyyyyyyyyyy cheaper! If most of your revolvers are 4-5 1.2" long (as mine are), one handgun in 7 1/2" is always good to have. That would be a dandy hunting handgun.


My home is very small, but I am considering some rearrangements that might permit me to get another safe.

Besides my 6" model 83, I also have a SBH Hunter in 45 Colt. That one has a 7-1/2" barrel, as well as a Power Custom hammer/trigger/free-spin pawl kit, installed by Ron Power himself. I use it so little I'm considering selling it too. Six inches appears to be the longest barrel I can tolerate in a holster.

Thanks for the information.

[992B]

Tom, since I live in Ohio and deer hunt with a handgun the 5-1/2" would be my choice. There is a minimum barrel length requirement of 5" and it must be a straight wall handgun cartridge used. I have a 5-1/2" 44 Special conversion done by Clements and it is just right. The 4" barrels are cute, but for all around use the 5-1/2" to 6" seem to do the job nicely. Gary

[44man]

A topic for another thread, but why did you stop silhouette? I'll be 70 this summer and can't wait for the season to start again. Eyes going? There are still plenty of scope classes. I am lucky, my eyes aren't what they use to be but I can, with a few acutrements (sp?), still manage iron sights. Biggest annoyence is getting up at 4AM to drive 3 hours to the range. But I remain loyal to the sport.
I had to move for my job and a range is way too far, just one for IHMSA. A small range with a huge crowd, guys signing up for 5 guns so it would take a day to shoot once or twice.
It got too costly and time consuming.

[Four Fingers of Death]

My home is very small, but I am considering some rearrangements that might permit me to get another safe.

Besides my 6" model 83, I also have a SBH Hunter in 45 Colt. That one has a 7-1/2" barrel, as well as a Power Custom hammer/trigger/free-spin pawl kit, installed by Ron Power himself. I use it so little I'm considering selling it too. Six inches appears to be the longest barrel I can tolerate in a holster.

Thanks for the information.

You could mount a handgun safe on top of your other safe, this would not take up any more room and would be secure if bolted together firmly and also bolted to the wall.

[longhorn]

CBrick--actually, I have burned thousands of rounds at long range, and still own a half dozen sets of Pachys that just don't work for me; I freely admit I haven't screwed a set on a gun in at least 15 years--have they changed construction or design somehow? Do you fit yours to your grip frames? I'm willing to learn, and learned scads from shooting at distance, but I certainly learned that the Pachys gave me unexplained flyers. No need to argue about grips, they're about as personal a taste as it gets in shooting.

[cbrick]

I don't do any fitting with the Pachs, simply screw them on. Also don't know that they have changed any design features but I've been using them a fair bit longer than 15 years.

Very possible your issue is hand size, I have large hands and the lumber on single actions is so small in my hands I cannot get either good grip or a consistent grip with them making long range grouping impossible. If I get a flyer it is because I screwed up not because the revolver wore Pachs.

Yep, grips are a personal taste. I agree completely that the rubber Pachs are butt ugly on a single action right up until the gun is in my hand at which time they are a thing of beauty. Nothing quite so nice as a beautiful piece of lumber on a single action except maybe 200 meter groups.

Rick

[44man]

The grips helped me every time.
Fliers have always been lead too soft for the caliber. Match of velocity to twist is next.
Rick might verify but I shot good with the wood panels if held right but my knuckle would get beat, not good with a 40 or 80 round match.
Pachmeyer removed knuckle pain.
It took me a little time to eliminate fliers and poor groups once I found case tension must be EVEN from shot to shot. You might be looking at grips when it is your loading. Loading is important. I might have shot more 1/2" groups at 100 yards with revolvers then anyone using Pachmeyer and Uncle Mike grips. Rick has fantastic long range groups as have many other of our shooters.
Grip angles can affect POI, not group size.
Do you know the dies you use can turn you from a bum at 10 yards to someone that can make a rifle shooter blush at 400 yards?

[Tatume]

Do you know the dies you use can turn you from a bum at 10 yards to someone that can make a rifle shooter blush at 400 yards?

I do wish you would elaborate on this. Thanks, Tom

[44man]

I do wish you would elaborate on this. Thanks, Tom
Easy. Pete and I went to my range to shoot 500 meters (547 yards) with revolvers. I was clanging steel. Rifle shooters at the other end were shooting at a 6" swinger at 400 yards. I asked if I could shoot at it. The first shot was for range and the next 4 centered the swinger, Pete hit it 3 times. We shot Creedmore, no bags.
Most rifle guys packed up and left, many came to see what we were shooting and were amazed.
Long ago a friend and I went to a range and were shooting single shot pistols at pop cans at 100 yards. I shot at one 20 times and it did not fall. We went down to look and it was a rag, full of holes.
I set a target up and shot a 1/2" group. The guy shooting a Browning .300 mag with a huge scope looked at my target, didn't say a word, packed up and left.
Pistols and revolvers are as accurate as a rifle and even more so.
I suppose more rifle shooters hate us then anyone. Not just me but friends that load right. My best revolver group was 2-1/2" at 500 yards. I used an Ultra Dot, not a scope.
Had an argument about shotgun shells at 50 yards. I did not stand them up, I set them base to me. I shot 5 shots and hit all 5 in the base with my .500 JRH, found 3 in the weeds. 3/4" targets at 50 yards.
I have explained it over and over, it is easy. I get disputed over and over. It is OK, It is you in the end to try.

[Tatume]

But what is it about the dies that you spoke of?

[44man]

I do wish you would elaborate on this. Thanks, Tom
Case tension must be even from shot to shot. I found the problem long ago and had special BR dies made. I used RCBS dies and could not get accuracy at all. The expander is wrong. I tested over and over and got accuracy from revolvers second to none. Then I tried Hornady New Dimension dies and they worked. They are all I use now. The expanders are right. Case sizing is right.
Buy Lee, Lyman, RCBS and even Redding and what you get is just loads that make noise. My friend has Redding .308 dies that size so much the expander lifts my bench off the floor with neck run out too great. I am lapping his dies.
Your loading bench is where accuracy starts.

[cbrick]

I think Jim was refering to neck tension. Barrel length, grips and all the rest are for naught in long range if the ammo doesn't have a very consistent bullet pull. This comes from neck tension not from crimp. The dies must re-size and expand properly for a consistent neck tension. It's my opinion that the age of the brass also plays an important role in the number of times fired, re-sized and work hardened even with the same lot of brass. I always shot the important matches with virgin brass but Jim and I have disagreed on this in the past.

Rick

[44man]

I think Jim was refering to neck tension. Barrel length, grips and all the rest are for naught in long range if the ammo doesn't have a very consistent bullet pull. This comes from neck tension not from crimp. The dies must re-size and expand properly for a consistent neck tension. It's my opinion that the age of the brass also plays an important role in the number of times fired, re-sized and work hardened even with the same lot of brass. I always shot the important matches with virgin brass but Jim and I have disagreed on this in the past.

Rick
We do about brass age and firings. I found new brass has too much anneal difference and a few firings made them more even.
But Rick understands boolit pull and even powder ignition.
Most do not understand that brass tension on your boolit must be even for every shot.

[cbrick]

We do about brass age and firings. I found new brass has too much anneal difference and a few firings made them more even.

I know of no way to prove or dis-prove it so it is my theory . . . If all of your brass is from one lot and there is a variation in amount of anneal from the factory and that brass is fired 3 or 10 or 30 times the amount of difference will still exist. If you work harden a piece of brass that is too soft X amount by firing it 10 times and take a piece of brass from the same lot that is too hard and fire it the same number of times the difference will still exist. The too hard brass will still be harder than the too soft brass. In theory it could work the opposite of your theory because the too soft brass may not work harden as rapidly or even as much as the too hard brass giving even more variation than you started with.

At any rate long range revolver groups are highly dependent on extremely consistent bullet pull and that comes from neck tension, not from crimp. On that we agree.

Now that should answer the OP questions of barrel length, what mold, what holster. Right? :mrgreen:

I'm jealous over Tatume getting a new FA 41 mag. If it were me and since I have a good friend that recently bought 50 acres in TX and I'm tired of listening to him whine over the wild pigs tearing up his property I would probably go with a short barrel and get the 7.5 inch. :mrgreen:

Rick

[longhorn]

Good points here; I usually buy brass in 500 piece lots and anneal before beginning to reload. Are they all the same then? Don't know, and don't have the knowledge or equipment to test. Sure leads to better groups, though (BPCR taught me this-consistency really is paramount). For me, it's not the lead, the powder, the primers, the brass, or the conditions--it's the grips. YMMV. Oh, and I don't dislike Pachmayrs, ugly though they are--I'd like to have the comfort and secure grip. As for the OP question, what barrel length makes it easiest to focus on the front sight? May vary with age/visual acuity...........I used to like long barrels on handguns and open sights much more.....

[Four Fingers of Death]

I remember reading Elmer Keith and he said there was a fair amount of luck in long shots, but the more you practiced, the luckier you get!

[cbrick]

How often has factory barrel crowns needed re-crown? What is the preferred crown for revolver accuracy?

It depends on concentricity. A custom smith building any firearm for accuracy will cut the crown, revolvers are no different. If the crown is not concentric at the moment the boolit leaves the muzzle the base will still be in contact with the muzzle on one side and free of the muzzle on the other side. With the remaining pressure from powder gases still on the base of the boolit it will tip the boolit slightly and there go your groups, how much depends on how out of concentric it is. It's also why you try so hard to protect your crown from accidental dings.

Rick

[44man]

It depends on concentricity. A custom smith building any firearm for accuracy will cut the crown, revolvers are no different. If the crown is not concentric at the moment the boolit leaves the muzzle the base will still be in contact with the muzzle on one side and free of the muzzle on the other side. With the remaining pressure from powder gases still on the base of the boolit it will tip the boolit slightly and there go your groups, how much depends on how out of concentric it is. It's also why you try so hard to protect your crown from accidental dings.

Rick
Exactly right, never ding your muzzle either. It is why target crowns are deeper, to keep fumblers away from the rifling. :drinks:

[K-Rod]

I remember reading Elmer Keith and he said there was a fair amount of luck in long shots, but the more you practiced, the luckier you get!

Perfect Practice Makes Perfect but I believe Keith was right, it does take a little luck

[cbrick]

With unknown distances which Elmer no doubt did plenty of it takes a lot of experience with the load gun combo and a bit of luck is still called for. Elmer didn't have anything even close to the sights available to us today. For long range he had horizontal lines on the front edge of his front sight and as his distance increased he raised the front sight up over the rear sight to lower lines on the front sight. Maxed out the bottom of the front sight was level with the rear sight.

In handgun silhouette the distances are precisely known. 50 meters, 100 meters, 150 meters and 200 meters. The elevation clicks on each of your guns is well known and written in your sight setting book. At any of the distances it is a simple matter of clicking up the known number of clicks from bottom to the desired distance.

It takes a load capable of grouping at 200 meters, a gun capable of grouping that ammo at 200 meters, known elevation clicks and proper shooting technique.

Next to that it takes practice, practice, practice. Years of doing it, no luck involved.

Rick