Help with Swiss

[Bullshop]

I got this question from a customer but I am ignorant. Would appreciate any help from those with experiance. Still do not know if he wants to duplicate origonal PP ammo or if he just wants something that will work good. Will appreciate any info from folks with experiance and success loading and shooting the older rear locking Swiss rifles. Thanks to all!
BIC/BS

*I run the Swiss Rifle Forum and several of us bought Swiss model 1889s
for shooting. We can not use the GP-11 surplus ammo on the market because
its too hot. The ammo made for this is the GP/90. What type of cast bullet
would work best with these guns?*

[45 2.1]

I'm really surprised that that forums resident experts haven't answered that question, if they are able to. One of those "experts" posts here also. The Lyman 311335 has shot pretty well in the older Swiss rifles for me. I would try that.

[Pop_No_Kick]

Neet Rifle..
I found some specs and history


http://www.swissrifles.com/sr/

Chuck

[Pop_No_Kick]

NEAT Rifle.

Some Load Data.

http://www.swissrifles.com/sr/pierre/data.html

I have Never loaded for one of these, So please take this witha a grain of salt.

Good Luck..
Chuck

[waksupi]

I can give you one load for the SR. Bullet is Ideal 311414. WW's, + 1 T. shot. Water quenched. FWFL. Federal magnum primer. 57 gr. WC860. Group size at 100 yards, issue sights, 2".

[Maven]

Bullshop, I've only fired cast bullets from my K-31's, but find they digest most .30cal. CB designs quite well. For ex., #311291, #311041, #311466 and even #311644 (195gr. tapered design) are capable of 2 m.o.a. (or better) from an "as issued" rifle. You have to size them to fit the bore, naturally (Mine are sized to .309") and seat them deeply into the case, especially #-644, but they perform very well. Powder choices are many, but I'd recommend 18.5gr. WC 820, 48gr. WC 860 or 22gr. of either H/IMR 4198 or AA 5744. IMR 3031 will also work in doses of 26-28gr. If it's jacketed bullet loads you want, go to the Swiss Rifle board as Waksupi recommended.

[NuJudge]

Can I suggest you go to the SwissRifles website and look at some of the postings of a guy using the handle 'Parashooter.' He has a bunch of neat pictures, one of which is the seating depth of bullets for the various SR models. Unfortunately, most were recently lost in a hacker attack.

Here is one showing GP90 ammo and original components, as well as chamber casts of rifles of different vintages:

http://p083.ezboard.com/ftheswissriflesdotcommessageboardfrm11.showMessage ?topicID=370.topic&index=22

The rifling on my K31 starts literally at the mouth of the case, and a bullet better be tapering ahead of the canelure, or there will be problems fully closing the bolt (because you are ramming the bullet into the rifling). If you do not notice that the bolt is not-quite-closed, the likelyhood is a misfire, as most of the energy of the falling striker is used to finally close the bolt.

The rifling on my 1911 Carbine is well forward of the case mouth. All of the chamber casts I have seen of earlier chambers are even more forgiving of cylindrical bullets.

Back when 7.5 brass was a real problem, I only shot the 1911 Carbine, and used 311291, sometimes with powders in the 4895 class, but more commonly with 2400. Try to figure out what your throat diameter is before you start loading.

I hope that helps. (This website needs a 'geek' emoticon).

CDD

[Bullshop]

I can give you one load for the SR. Bullet is Ideal 311414. WW's, + 1 T. shot. Water quenched. FWFL. Federal magnum primer. 57 gr. WC860. Group size at 100 yards, issue sights, 2".

Waksupi
Is this load for the rear lockers?

All
Any questions posted by me here are about boolits not bullets so shame on you for thinking otherwise.
Do the rear lockers tend to have the short/no lead of the front lockers? With bore riders what is the largest bore ride diam. that will freely chamber. I have found that the front lockers bore diam. tend to be on the tight side.
Thanks all for what you have sent but if you think of anything else dont hold back.
BIC/BS

[brimic]

I read something recently about using 30-40 Krag load data for 1889 rifles. I might have actually read that on the swiss rifle forum though.

The laod data given for K-31 and 1911 rifles is way too hot for an 1889.

I don't have an 1889, but the typical leade on the K-31 is the shortest of the bunch with swiss rifles.

[45 2.1]

Do the rear lockers tend to have the short/no lead of the front lockers?
No, they don't!
With bore riders what is the largest bore ride diam. that will freely chamber.
You probably won't find a bullet that will do that. A long 200+ grain bullet might nose engrave though.
I have found that the front lockers bore diam. tend to be on the tight side.
Thats correct for the 1931 series.
Thanks all for what you have sent but if you think of anything else dont hold back.
Each Swiss series is different from the others in regard to chambers and throat dimensions. Get a throat slug for the rifle your trying to fit a bullet to, it's a lot easier if you do. Don't take anybodys word if they don't have the 89 series for much of anything, they are different from the others. Try the longer 200+ grain bullets sized about .311" for a trial fit for the 89's.

[waksupi]

Bullshop, that is a K31 load. Given more for the bullet type, than for using. The bullet has a long tapered ogive, and is forgiving for short throated rifles.

[carpetman]

Waksupi was pretty deep into boar riding until sheep came along.

[Bob S]

The bore diameter of the 1889's averages about .299. The grooves are deeper than U.S practice so the groove diameter is about .310. It's a three-groove barrel, so you can't measure a slug directly unless you have some specialized equipment. The old GP-90 ammunition used a heeled lead bullet with steel nose cap; the bullet was paper patched. The diameter over the patching is almost .320, and the barrel is chambered and throated to take this size slug; in fact both of mine will chamber a cartridge with an 8mm bullet (323471 sized to .320). The throat is the exact opposite of the K31: it is HUGE. You probably won't be able to find a mould that will cast a bullet that will fit in the case mouth and engrave on chambering. Also because of the HUGE throat and chamber in the neck area, the bullets have to be seated deeper than we would like, or the case may not obturate and you get gas in the face.

A long time ago, I had asked Dan (Mountain Moulds) if he would do a heeled bullet to duplicate the Swiss pill, but to cast at .319 on the major part ... at first he said "yes", but then changed his mind, so I'm stuck experimenting with existing stuff. The Ideal heavy Loverins work OK; the new Lyman 314299 works OK, as does my modified 311284 (the "dirt scraper" groove has been removed). I have used 17 grains of 2400 with any of the above, the best groups I have gotten are about 3" at 100 yards. Not a K31, by any means.

I also have a "new" 1889 from the group buy, and I have not yet had an opportunity to fire it ... hopefully the heat wave will break toward the end of the week, and I will be able to shoot that one, and the .308 K31.

I am really curious who asked the question. The guy that "runs" (owns) the SRF is a personal friend, and I'm pretty sure he already knows all of this stuff, and he knows where to find me and/or Eric.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[StarMetal]

Ray

From what the boars had to say, Waksupi didn't really reach deep!!!

Joe

[Bullshop]

Bob S or anyone with experiance
Still trying to understand the info given on this thread by those that know. I went looking on the NEI sight and found three things there that may have possibilities for the 1889 Swiss. If I may impose on you just a bit more would you please go to the NEI sight and look at #85 #85A and #86 and please offer an educated opinion. I kind of like the #85A but ? You can use the link at the bottom of this sight to get to my sight and there find a link to NEI.
Thanks to all that offered help. Comming up with a design for someone else and not having a rifle to work with is a challenge.
Please note that all NEI molds I have drop boolits .001" to .002" over advertised diameter.
BIC/BS

[Bob S]

Bullshop:

I looked. My "learned opinion" ;-) is as follows:

85 and 86 look like short fat near-clones of 311291. Probably too short for success in the '89.

85A looks like a fat clone of the Ideal 311299 or the more recent Lyman 314299; I'm not sure you would gain anything design-wise by going to the NEI mould over either of these two. This would be the best choice of the three you mentioned, but without trying it, I wouldn't bet money that it will work any better than the 314299, 311284, or 311467, all shot as-cast or just run through a .314 or .315 lube-size die for a fast grease job.

If you look at the link that Chris (Nujudge) posted above, you'll see that Eric (Parashooter) reported that he could see no appreciable difference between .308 cast and "oversize" cast up to .315. I can see a difference for the better, but it is still not the decisive factor. I still firmly believe that the rifles are not going to shoot up to their potential unless/until someone comes up with a bullet mould that will fit the chamber and throat properly. That means a bullet the size and shape of the GP-90 projectile. NEI may well cut a custom mould for the paper patch version if asked: the steel "cap" is of no consequence for us civilian shooters.

What I had wanted to do when I got my first 1889 is get a mould cut for a grease-groove bullet the size and shape of the GP-90. That would be a heeled bullet with the heel being about .309-310 diameter and cut to take a non-crimp style .30 cal gas check like the Ideal. The total length of the gas-checked heel would equal the length of the neck of the 7.5 x 53 case, so the base does not protrude into the powder room. The bearing surface would be .318 to .320. Being a lazy sort, I was just trying to avoid paper patching, if possible. To sort of test this theory from a "fit" stand point, I sized a few Ideal 323471's to .320, and turned the "heel" and gas check shank on the base, and seated them in dummy cases just to check fit in my old '89. The fit was beautiful. I never did fire any of them, lost interest when I discovered the bent barrel.

I also loaded up some 311467, seated the Hornady gas check and sized them to .312 (which was really no sizing at all for my mould), and greased only the first two grooves so that all of the grease is in the case neck, and seated the bullets. I then "paper patched" the exposed bearing surface with one wrap of masking tape, and dipped the exposed portion of the bullet in Lee liquid alox. The fit in the throat seems perfect, but as above, these have not been fired yet. (Don't laugh yet. I used the masking tape trick on Keith 44 mag pills for .43 Spanish before I got a proper mould for it, and they shot into one ragged hole at 50 yards with 50 grains of FFFg)

That's where I stand now. It's too damn hot and humid here (Northern VA) for fat old men to shoot outside. When the heat breaks and I can get time off from owrk, I will be testing the new '89 and other projects.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Bullshop]

Bob S
Once again thank you very much for your help on this. I do have the Lyman # 314299 and will offer it as a sample and see if he will be satisfied with it. Shure is nice to have the brotherhood to lean on when I get into a little trouble like this.
BIC/BS

[Bob S]

Bullshop:

I've had about a half dozen emails from Wayne on this in the past 24 hours, so he's really anxious to get out and shoot his "new" 1889! I neglected to mention one other: Ideal 311335. It's an obsolete one that looks very close to the 311299 (or the fatter 314299), the difference being the 311335 has a blunter point and the parallel bore-rider extends further forward than any of the '299 cousins. With this bullet, I can actually get the nose to engrave in the lands when it is seated with the base of the bullet at the base of the neck. The mould I have casts .301/.311 in lino; have not yet tried it with "old" (pre-a970) WW. More later ...

Resp'y,
Bob S.