Making .45 Super from .30-06 brass

[Whistler]

I've stumbled upon some info here and there that a lot of people use cut down and inside reamed .30-06 or .308 brass to make a .45 ACP case with identical exterior but thicker case web that can handle .45 Super or ".45-08 Armsco" loads. The gun itself is prepared for the job, but I'm having trouble with the brass.

I bought a .452" inside neck reamer from Brownells/Sinclair and some 400 cases of .30-06. The problem I see is that the fired (and unsized) .30-06 brass isn't expanded enough to get the reamer in. I guess that the brass was shot in a rifle with a tight chamber, but I do believe this to be strange since the lots seem to vary with brass from different rifles. Mmy fired .45ACP brass is way larger when comparing and takes the reamer fine. The problem is that I can't find this in any posts on the web, am I the only one that has run into this problem?

And yes... I am aware there is .45 Super brass available from Starline. This is a special project that I want to do "just because". ;)

[Artful]

The question of trimming down 308 or 30-06 brass down to 45acp used to come up all the time.

I have tried it.

It's not hard, but it takes a few steps.

Cut your 308 or 30-06 brass to length. A band saw is the best way to go (and a handy tool for your shop).
Some are now buying a miniature cutoff saw from harbor freight for case trimming - esp for 300 whisper/blackout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqXKqm56_og

Then you have to inside neck ream.
I fill a bottle cap with cutting oil/machinists oil.
Dip the case mouth into the oil, and then ream.
The failure to use cutting oil is why case reaming often goes wrong.
But I don't have a standard .452 reamer, but one I got from Forester for the .451 Detonics Case making, it has a long taper on the nose to center in the case. If you buy the adaptor for the Forester case trimmer you can use an electric drill to speed things up.
Because the mouth of a cut off .308 case is much smaller diameter, the reamer has to stretch and ream the case body.
And, they told me to use cutting oil with it. ;^)

Then you Inside/Outside De-burr, Clean, Tumble, Anneal (if you don't Anneal they will split at the neck in 1-2 firings).
You're done.


It is lots of work to get it to work right, and not at all worth the trouble, if you have cases already available.

Two issues with rifle brass, the wall thickness at the mouth is too thick and requires the reaming/annealing, and the primer pocket is too deep as designed for rifle primers.

If you section 45acp brass of almost every brand, Starline 45 Super, and Starline 460 Rowland brass are all of the same strength and thickness by my measurements.

Starline 45acp +P is thicker walled, heavier, and has less case capacity.

This is what I saw when I weighed the brass and cross sectioned it.

I actually choose to use the WW2 Surplus steel cases as they were stronger than the brass ones and didn't require a lot of extra work.
but I did have to recoat them as it gripped the chamber wall too well and I broke an extractor or three at first.

CAUTION: The following loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge.
USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. NO one except you will assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

To shoot 45 Super type loads in a poor case support pistol, you can do a couple of tricks:

Lighter bullets like 152 gr SWC bullet makes less recoil and is in the barrel a shorter period of time
- heavier bullets like 255 SWC keith limit powder capacity and increase recoil plus are in the barrel a longer period of time!

Power Pistol powder makes less pressure to get high velocity with lighter bullets.

Starline +P brass bridges the gap better across the poor case support with the thicker wall.

The semi wad cutters punch a big hole through paper and a big hole through animals.

With the 152 gr Boolit, I maxed at 12 gr Power Pistol, heavy Taper crimp, Starline +P brass, WLP, 1.275" OAL,
and may need resized after loaded to make sure they drop in the chamber, especially if you use the longer heavier boolits.

This I can shoot in a Para Ordnance pistol. Their P14 pistols have great support, the 1.275" is a must to get it to feed.
This pistol is NOT Stock - has Detonic's spring system to handle higher pressure of Super loads.

In the SMLE converted rifle with rifle primers, I can go to ~50 psi until the primers fall out with any old 45acp brass, just as good as 45 Super brass, no difference.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/FAL/SMLE45SIAConversion_zpsd36e4ef1.jpg
Special Interest Arms Conversion parts kit.

Here's a link with good info
http://www.realguns.com/archives/020.htm

On a side note to illustrate safety concerns...
Back when I was doing work with heavy loads in 45 ACP, I used to go to the tuesday night gunclub pistol shoots.
I'd chrono my loads and shoot a Bullseye match and we would have fun matches - toss a some coin in and winner takes all.
The fun shoot one night was a multi-balloon shoot. It was Mano-el-Mano elimination

- I had my gun unloaded but with several loaded clips with these high power loads in them on the table. My friend was shooting his Gold Cup and had one balloon left and his competition had one balloon left as well. My friend had run out of his ammo and seeing my clips there he grabbed one and slapped it home and fired and hit the balloon and won his heat. The only problem was the slide came to the rear with enough force that it was locked by the kinking of the recoil spring - It would not go forward!

We did manage to beat the slide forward and with a new spring get the gun back in operation.

But never again did he use my ammo without asking me what it was.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Great info. Thank you

[Artful]

Your welcome - that's why we come here to share right.

[Whistler]

Thanks for the indepth answer.

Since my reamer is not tapered, can I use my expander die to expand the .30-06 case before reaming?

[akraven]

I don't know the current standards but a few years ago I wrote to Starline to ask about 45 Super brass vs 460 Rowland brass. They stated that they were the same strength brass that was stronger than standard 45 ACP brass. I would suggest a updated email if you want to verify that.

[Artful]

Thanks for the indepth answer.

Since my reamer is not tapered, can I use my expander die to expand the .30-06 case before reaming?

There's a can of worms - you have a .452 reamer so it will ream that size into the case - your 45 ACP expander die will try to expand the case.
If it's a Lyman M die it will do it in multiple stages of differing diameters. If it's another maker it may have a taper with a ledge to bump it into a funnel on the end.
Assuming a taper you would want to shove it in enough so that the case expands to a point where the bevel on your reamer can engage but not so much that the cutter won't be doing any cutting. So to Not answer your question - it would depend upon your expander die and how you have adjusted it.

[Artful]

found a picture of .451 Detonics case reamer
http://www.keepandshare.com/userpics/1/8/0/p/ilot/2011-08/ss/p1000213_2_800x600-82356806.jpg?ts=1312825824

I'm wondering if you can find a tapered reamer or cutting burr to just touch up the mouth of a case to start the reamer you do have into the brass.
Like this...
http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/Smallparts/en_US/inca/browse/sprites/sprite-cuttingburs-shape._V137991386_.png

[Buckshot]

...........I'm not soliciting the work as I have plenty to do myoneself (and not just machine stuff :-)). There are others here on the board with machine tools. A reamer made of simple high carbon steel, and then hardened could be made that would work very well, and live just as long as HSS reaming brass. BTW the gun writer Dean Grennel was one of the early experimenters with, and supporters of the 45 Super. I don't remember now if it was in one of the later "ABC'S or Reloading" or his "Book of The 45", in which he accounted for most of his work. Probably the later.

..............Buckshot

[Whistler]

There are some machine shops in town. Perhaps I can hand in my .452 reamer to be tapered and recut to the .451 Detonics dimensions?
Artful: Would it be possible for you to measure your .451 reamer for me? I'd need the length of the taper as well as smallest and largest diameters.

I did try to slightly chamfer the case mouth to se if I could get the .452 reamer started, but the reamer's outer dimension is almost that of the case itself, it acts more like a length trimmer than an inside reamer. The fired .30-06 brass I have is ~.460" whereas my fired .45 ACP is .472".

The gun I'm doing this in is a AMT Longslide 7" on a Norinco frame, plenty of slide mass there! I've got a custom full length guide rod made and I've ordered a 28lb recoil spring with matching firing pin spring and also a square firing pin stop.

[Artful]

You know, I have long since given up making up cases from rifle rounds, I possibly may have it in my reloading stuff but I can honestly say I have not seen it in 30 years.
So I would say for quickest response call up Forester and ask them directly for the measurements of the .451 Detonics inside case reamer.

[Whistler]

They don't have it on their web page at all, so I guess it is a custom reamer of sorts.

Another thought popped up. I have about 2k cases of .45 GAP. This round has a thicker case web comparable with .45 Super to withstand higher pressures. I also recall read somewhere that lead bullet rounds in .45 ACP do not necessarily headspace on the case mouth, but on the boolit itself. Wouldn't it then be possible to use .45 GAP brass loaded to 1.250-1.275 OAL with a 200gn SWC and headspace on the boolit for .45 Super? The lube grove would be showing, but that seems mostly like a problem solved by storing the ammo in proper ammo boxes.

Another advantage would be that .45 GAP uses small primers, making for even more case web and possibly harder primers if using small rifle primers...

[Artful]

I don't see why you couldn't get away with doing it that way. The height of small pistol and small rifle primers are different you may have to deepen the primer pocket to accept small rifle primers.

[felix]

PRIMER LENGTH CORRECTION............

"large pistol and large rifle primers are different"..........'"small pistol and small rifle primers are the same". ... felix

[Whistler]

This sketch suggests that .45 GAP has a case web thickness of .200", making it .002" thicker than .45 Super brass.

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd45gap.jpg

The quickload data looks pretty decent:

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/3467/quickloadsupergap.png

[Artful]

Thanks for keeping me honest Felix

[Buckshot]

...........Whistler, I'm curious why your 30-'06 brass (which is supposed to be close to .473" at the casehead) is so small in OD? So far as the headspace question with the 45ACP case goes (too short and actually headspacing on the extractor hook) I too have read of people trying to headspace it off the boolit engraving. Issue here is finding a slug design that will do that AND still feed from the magazine or not having to be seated deeper then idea in the case. I also personally saw a test conducted over a couple weeks attempting to prove or disprove the false headspacing issue.

The test was performed by a proficient pistol silhouette competitor, who was also an older gentleman and I don't know what his educational degrees were in, but I know he was published and was in on the early stages of guided missiles and inertial navigation. We were batting the 45 ACP headspoace thing around at the range one day. He'd purchased one of the first Kimber 1911 target model pistols. He bought Winchester 45 Magnum brass, established the headpsace length of his pistol and trimmed 50 cases to that length. As a control he bought a box of Winchester 45 ACP 200gr SWC target ammo.

He fire formed the 50 trimmed 45 Mag brass. In the next few weeks he fired his factory 'control' ammo. Ammo with the same Winchester bullet loaded to a book velocity as close to that as possible in the 45 Mag cases. He then shot a different jacketed bullet weight in both sets of brass with the same load, and then again using his own cast boolits. All shooting was through a chronograph and at the same target design, and all groups were of 10 rounds, at 25 yards benched, off sandbags. His conclusions were that the longer brass statistically produced smaller groups. However they didn't produce the smallest groups shot. He pretty much said that for real world use, like shooting offhand competitively or not, defensively or casually the difference did not warrant the time and energy spent in prepping brass to match the chamber to truly headspace on the casemouth. Being the carefull learned man he was, he'd also added that he was satisfied with his results for him and his pistol :-).

.............Buckshot

[geargnasher]

It doesn't take much to headspace on the boolit, the Lee 230 TC will do it easily in most of my pistols and still fit the magazines. The H&G #68 and MP Mold's copy will do the same if you load the front shoulder to touch the throat.

I shoot .45 Super and use Starline brass, those making their own brass have my deepest respect and sympathies!

Gear

[Whistler]

...........Whistler, I'm curious why your 30-'06 brass (which is supposed to be close to .473" at the casehead) is so small in OD?
As am I... I bought about 400 cases used, and my only guess is that the previous owner's rifle had a very tight chamber.

geargnasher: Thank you, that response is encouraging. I was planning on using a Mihec HP of the #68 at 185gn. My concern is that when the boolit reaches the place where it should headspace, the force of the 28lb recoil spring will either drive the boolit too deep in the chamber or stop there and continue driving the case forward making for a deeper seated boolit.

[geargnasher]

Hopefully your pistol's throat will allow the front band of the MP 200 SWC to stand about .020" proud of the case mouth, that's about right for .45 ACP magazines with typical short factory .45 ACP brass. My Ace Customs basically has a .45 ACP-length chamber except for the ramp, and Starline .45 Super brass is a touch too short to properly headspace off the case mouth Set seating depth about .002-5" shy of an interference fit when fully chambered and let the slide stop on the breech face like it's supposed to, then no worries about deep seating or engraving when the slide slams home. You should not have interference when chambering or you won't be able to eject a loaded round, it doesn't take much to wedge a boolit into the throat enough to stick the breech closed to the point that it takes some tools to get it open again. The cartridge should be snug in the chamber and rely on boolit/throat contact points to keep the case head very close to the breech face instead of the case mouth, but not bind or stick, and still be so after some fouling has accumulated.

Of course, if you're making your own brass, make it long enough to closely fit the chamber and actually headspace on the case mouth like God intended in the first place and then you don't have to worry about headspacing off of the boolit itself. Headspacing off of the boolit is a way of keeping things snug in .45 ACP pistols using factory brass which is almost always WAY too short to ever approach touching the end of the chamber. You'll work it out.

Gear

[gnappi]

I know it's an old thread, but I did this with a conversion to .45 Win mag and the cases REALLY needed to be neck reamed. Some a LOT, others not so much. At one time I had all of my data on which cases (30-06 and .308) needed the least amount of reaming. In the long run it was just easier to buy win mag brass than to diddle with making my own.

[Ajohns]

And I hate to hijack this one too, but has anyone ever chambered this round in a bolt action rifle?

Just had the thought of the screw on barrels they sell in 45acp, chamber reamed longer and you could have this? I know the magazine conversions would be no good, but maybe this round would feed from the rifle's (Mauser) magazine?

[LinotypeIngot]

Why not just buy Starline .45 Super brass?

[lar45]

Years ago I read about the 45-08 that the Canadians were using for bear protection. They'd chop off any 308 or 06 sized case, inside team, trim to 45acp length and load 225 SWC to 1200 fps in modified 1911s.
I contacted one of the guys and had him mail me a couple of cases. The case capacity varied and was less than mil 45 cases.
TZZ mil brass can handle some hot loads. I accidentally went there one time, 230s at 1300! Oops. The brass was fine, no bulges...

[lar45]

Years ago I read about the 45-08 that the Canadians were using for bear protection. They'd chop off any 308 or 06 sized case, inside team, trim to 45acp length and load 225 SWC to 1200 fps in modified 1911s.
I contacted one of the guys and had him mail me a couple of cases. The case capacity varied and was less than mil 45 cases.
TZZ mil brass can handle some hot loads. I accidentally went there one time, 230s at 1300! Oops. The brass was fine, no bulges...

[1006]

Unfortunately, I have a memory for rarely used information. In this case it might help with the discussion about 45 Super brass. When it first came out, it was written in one of the magazines that it gets it strength, not by increased thickness, but by work hardening it at its base during the manufacturing process of stamping it. This explains why it is not thicker.

I can also ad: that you can probably load standard acp brass -at your own risk- as hot as you would ever desire. My standard bowling pin load from a Springfield 1911 with a standard non-ramped, 5.5 inch threaded barrel and compensator was well into 45 Super territory. I used Bullseye powder for a 185 molySWC to get 1085fps, and with a 230 moly bullet to get 935fps. My brass was range pickup. I am pretty sure hotter loads could be run with some of the slower powders, but this worked for me. My belief is that the gun and its setup is the limit, not the brass.