Lee 2 cavity 175 .401 mold question from a newb

[PBblaster]

I recently decided to cast my own boolits, I purchased a lee 2 cavity 175 .401 mold. My first casting session was last night after receiving, cleaning and brining my mold up to temperature. Once I established a decent technique i was getting well formed boolits and was happy with my progress. Once my session was complete I weighed a good sampling of my new boolits, they all came in at 185 grains and my diameter is closer to .405 then .401. I did not purchase the sizer considering much of what I read stated the lee mould may eliminate the need to size. I seated a few of the new boolits and they will not chamber in my pistol, I will obviously need to size. Would the Lee sizing die be a good option to help correct at least the diameter issue?

This is a really great forum, thanks to all who make most of the trial and error easier for new casters.

[RobsTV]

Welcome to the forum.

That size and weight is normal with many alloys, and many stock pistols will not chamber much above .402. Yes, the Lee sizer will get you down to around .401 and works great. You still might need to do a few things afterward, but this is a good start (after slugging bore). Search .401 for more issues that might pop up with that caliber in pistols.

[popper]

I have the TL and standard groove moulds. Works fine using the Lee sizer. TL with recluse and shoot.

[PBblaster]

Thank you very much for your responses, I have slugged the barrel and I am at .40 per my calipers. The lands and grooves are difficult to get an accurate measurement with calipers, I will measure with micrometers and possibly the CMM once I return to work. Do you think the current size I am casting will be O.K. to run the rest of my alloy and size later or should I stop production until I get the Lee sizing die?

Once again I thank you for your knowledge.

[Casting_40S&W]

I would run the loaded rounds thru a Carbide Factory Crimp die, this will post size your brass/bullet to work in a standard SAAMI chamber. I do this with my Lee TL bullets.

[PBblaster]

I do have the FCD as well as the bulge buster I use for range pick ups. Would there be any benefit of using the bulge buster in the FCD or should I just run them through the FCD? I do appreciate your advice, thank you.

[Casting_40S&W]

Run the loaded rounds thru your bulge buster, and report back with any chambering problems. The Bulge buster will post size the entire cartridge, while the FCD will post size as far as the shellholder will permit.

[garym1a2]

I tried buldge buster when I first started for glock 22 in 40. It did not work for me. Only thing that works for me is to buldge buster on the brass. Size the case and prime them seperatly and size the boolit befor loading it. Once I have done that I still drop test the rounds before using them. I only use the old style crimp die, not the lee factory drimp die.

My glock has ran 100% good with this for over the last 15 months of USPSA events and lots of practice.

[MT Chambers]

Do it right and get yourself a lube-sizer, so you can size and lube at the same time, cookie sheets and wax paper gets old real quick.

[9.3X62AL]

What MT Chambers said. Not only does the wax paper bit get old quick, the lube-sizer route allows you to go past pistol-only mild-to-moderate pressures and velocities.

[saint_iverson]

Ok, so you cast the boolits up, good start! But since you didn't size, did you use any lube? Although I cannot speak for the 40, I have both the TL and normal lube grooves for my 45acp and size them both through Lee's push through sizer.

Steps:
1. make the 45/45/10 mix as seen on the forum
2. using a sparing amount of lube and let dry
3. push through size
4. re-lube and let dry
5. load
6. shoot
7. (longest step) recover brass from the grass

[saint_iverson]

To piggy back off of the recommendations from 9.3 and Chambers, they are right in sayin that the TL lube will not support the higher pressures. However, to keep your setup conservative to begin with, I still recommend the TL and Lee Lube Sizer. ESPECIALLY for the 40cal... Not often you will be developing a hot round in that particular sizer .40*". Therefore, the cost of the size and top punch, you have the same cost as the Lee anyways (~$16-18), and you didn't have to buy the $150- lube press and pony up for a lube heater.

[PBblaster]

Thanks to all who have responed, here is where I am with my progress.

1. Tried the buldge buster and it is not going to work, the sleeve is a larger diameter than the boolits.
2. Used the FCD ( set up per Lee instructions) and did get the rounds to chamber.
3. Pulled the barrel and checked the rounds, they slide in but do not fall out on under their own weight. If I lightly shake the barrel the round will fall out. I gave the FCD another .25 turn and the round falls out when I turn the barrel upside down.
4. I have some lube I made 50/50 paraffin,vaseline.

I will more than likely not shoot over 900fps and I use HP38 as my light IDPA load. My completed round dimension per my calipers is
.423 and my chamber measures .426, Will this be o.k to shoot or should wait and put them through the sizer?

Once again many thanks!!

[lonewelder]

I think first I would give lee a call.The last 2 dc lee molds I got had size problems.I have a 6 cav 175tl that works fine as cast.

[RobsTV]

Couple things not yet mentioned are the gun make/model and the cartridge OAL. Some, like S&W, will usually require additional steps to properly chamber a cast lead .40. Get the $15 Lee .401 sizer and lube kit. The FCD should not normally be used as a cure for lead. Unless of course all you wish for is the round to fit, and could care less about accuracy or leading.

Just did the $15 throating reamer rental on my S&W and finally cured the chambering issues. (thanks to tips posted by geargnasher)

Pan lubing is not so bad. This thread had me spend some more time doing additional research on lube sizers again. The cheap lubesizer route will run you a minimum of $180 (4500 heated w/GC, die, punch, C&R price) to get started with one caliber. That will also be slower than the $15 Lee sizer (according to some that use LLA method with sizer, and no longer use their lubesizer due to being too slow). I can size, pan lube with Carnauba Red, and cookie cut about 50 boolits every 15 to 20 minutes (includes heating and cooling time) using Lee sizer. Could do much faster with 2 pans running if I needed to, but the rate I do them at, 150 to 250 per sitting, is fast enough for me. When I use LLA, 200 sized rounds in a Ziploc bag are done in minutes.

[PBblaster]

Thanks again, I will call Lee about the mold and also purchase the Lee sizer. The primary goal is to cast and reload my own boolits for a S&W M&P 40 PRO (5" barrel).

[RobsTV]

The S&W's have an edge in the throat that boolits will catch on, making it hard to chamber and shaving lead when fired. Sizing the boolit down with heavy crimp, FCD or bulge buster to clear this edge will cause boolit to be too small for bore, resulting in poor accuracy and severe leading.

Here was a thread that mentions it, as well as shows photo of the chamber and throat.:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?174637-S-amp-W-Shield-Bore-Diameter

[saint_iverson]

Robs- good call, never heard of this issue before but these pieces aren't my flavor. I would agree with you 100%, what is S&W hoping to achieve with this lip??

[PBblaster]

Thanks for the information on the Smiths, I ordered the sizing die and will try a few to see if I experience leading. I will check my diameters before and after sizing and crimping to see where my end diameter will be. I have never shot anything but commercial cast lead from my M&Ps 15 BHN and sized to .401. I hope my casting project shows good reults, I am hooked on the hobby and would hate to have a set back. My original thoughts were to cast so I can shoot cheaper and learn something new, now I enjoy casting as much as shooting........

[rsrocket1]

Hello PBblaster and welcome. I have been casting the Lee 401-175-TC for about a year now and have cast and shot about 5000 of these through my M&P40 FS.
Have you measured the diameters along the seam and 90 degrees across the seams? If they are considerably larger across the seam, you should check for lead or other debris on the faces of the mold that touch each other.

I have a 6 cavity mold and the boolits drop out at .4015-.403 depending on the mix of alloy. Lately, I've been using a much higher concentration of pure lead and when using the sizer, I get very little resistance as the boolits go through, but they do get swaged down a tiny bit.

I orignially did what you did and bought the mold without the sizer. My first casts were with wheel weights/linotype which were way overkill (BHN18), but I go the ingots cheap and couldn't find any other lead sources. The boolits came out mostly on the .403 size. I like to load to 1.135" and that left 0.05" of the vertical part of the bullet sticking out of the case. The bullets met with resistance when closing the slide and some rounds needed the slide pushed in with both thumbs to close. Not wanting to shave lead in the chamber, I made some rounds where the cone seated flush with the case mouth (1.102" COL)and following a run through the FCD (crimp stem all the way up with no crimp action), the bullets fed and chambered with ease. A starting charge of 4.0g Bullseye ran these bullets great at 875fps. I worked this load up to 4.9g while waiting for the sizer to come in and got them up to 1000 fps with no problems.

I have since then sized all of the 401-175TC casts and tumble lubed them in Recluse's 45/45/10 formula and now seat them to 1.135"

If you shoot a lot of these, consider the 6 cavity mold and a Lee 4-20 bottom pour spout. I average 5-600/hour and a quick session can yield a lot of good bullets.

[PBblaster]

Thanks rsrocket1, I am now up to 2,000 cast and waiting for the Lee sizer to show up. I measured as you suggested and get the same dimension regardless. I will take the advice and back the FCD stem out, I am trying to build inventory for the up coming IDPA season. I load 3.5 grains of HP38, COL 1.125 never put it through a chrono but can drop steel at the matches. If I can find a steady source of lead I will upgrade the pot and mold capacity. Thank you for the infromation, I will update my progress once I get the sizer and hit the range.

[RobsTV]

Did you mean to type 4.5gr of HP38?
3.5gr is below recommended minimum. May cause issues, some of which could be leading, improper slide cycling, and poor accuracy.

Here are some chrono results from HP38/W231 and that boolit.
W231 4.55gr, 897 fps, pf=161, 320 ft/lbs, ES-22, SD-8
W231 4.8gr, 935 fps, pf=168, 350 ft/lbs, ES-28, SD-8
W231 5.0gr, 964 fps, pf=174, 372 ft/lbs, ES-26, SD-8 (favorite load)
W231 5.3gr, 1046 fps, pf=188, 437 ft/lbs, ES-29, SD-6

another link that may be of help is the pdf .40 S&W IPSC Loads List
http://www.k8nd.com/ipscload.htm

[9.3X62AL]

Rob--I've used 4.7-4.8 grains of WW-231 with the Lee 175 TC (conventional lube groove) @ 1.135" to closely mimic my carry load for practice sessions in my 40 S&Ws (carry load is W-W Ranger SXT 180 grain JHP). In 3 pistols so far, these loads have met or exceeded the accuracy standard set by the jacketed factory loads, and cost a fraction of what j-word refills run.

[PBblaster]

Thanks for the information on the loads and PFs, I really need to purchase a chronograph in the near future.

I did receive the lee sizer in .401 and ran about 500 boolits through the die.

I also took a closer look at my mold considering the silghtly larger diameter that was being dropped, upon inspection with a 10X Loupe I noticed a thin amount of lead inside the track of the mold line up groove. I removed this obstruction and those boolits size easier with much less friction through the sizer then the previous mentioned in my OP. I did notice something in my mold during inspection that I have yet to completely get my mind around, With the mold closed and held up to the light I get a slight gap between the mold halves but only in between the cavities and no gap where the point of the boolits are formed. When I cast I do not get incomplete boolits or wings on the boolits.

I do load light for IDPA(3.5 HP38) and have changed out my recoil spring from the 16lb factory to a 13lb non-captured rod and spring. I will only do this until enough 40 pros are manufactured and I can shoot it in the production division. I have shot this load last season in a 40C without lead,cycle or extraction issues using commercial hard cast 180 grain and the factory recoil set up.

I completed 15 test bullets but have yet to go to the range, still feeling the after math of last weeks snow snow fall.

All were cast water quenched and weighed (185 gns)

pan lubed using 50/50 paraffin vaseline

sized through the lee .401 sizing die

3.5 of HP38 AOL 1.130

I tried backing the stem of the FCD out but the bullets would not feed and allow the slide to go into battery.

I set the FCD die up per the lee instructions and all 15 bullets feed freely and securely return the slide to battery.

Guess all that is left is to head off to the range,check accuracy and leading.

I really appreciate all the help this forum has offered me regarding my new learning experience.

[RobsTV]

It is normal to see light in closed cold Lee mold halves, and as long as they drop fine, you are in good shape.

I would skip the FCD all together and use the seating die to crimp just the case mouth enough to chamber. FCD is made for jacketed bullets not lead boolits.

1.130 was about the max OAL I could get to chamber, and went with 1.125 to give a little extra space. But the throating reamer corrected that as well, and now longer than 1.130 is possible.

But really just load some up and shoot 'em. All might be working fine the way you have things setup.

[RobsTV]

Thanks for the information on the loads and PFs, I really need to purchase a chronograph in the near future.
....
All were cast water quenched
...
sized through the lee .401 sizing die
....
3.5 of HP38 AOL 1.130
...
I set the FCD die up per the lee instructions and all 15 bullets feed freely and securely return the slide to battery.



A quickload check shows that Lee boolit loaded with 3.5gr of HP38 and OAL of 1.130 will generate maximum chamber pressure of 13040 psi, and have a velocity 749 fps. I find quickload is usually within 5% of what my chrono shows.

The boolit will not expand or Obturate with that load and water quenched boolits (15 BHN), as it needs at least 21330 psi to begin obturation. Basically, boolit will start as .401 sized, be swagged down a little in the FCD, and stay that smaller than .401 size. Fine if you are using jacketed. 4.5gr of HP38 would bring pressure up to 21661 psi (905fps), barely enough to start obturation, but at least it will fit a little better.

What does this all mean? At the very least, better accuracy if you increase that load to load data charts recommended minimum starting levels.

For proper chambering, another thing to try. See how your fired brass fits in the chamber. It will. And, it is larger than what your case sizing die will leave them. Try to insert one of your sized boolits into that fired case by hand. Should be able to. This should show you that the boolit will not expand the case large enough that you will need to resize everything after a round is completed (FCD). Again without sizing the brass and no boolit, add a flare/expand the mouth as you would prior to seating boolit. Now try to chamber. It won't. Final step is to place that brass in combo seating/crimp die and adjust crimp (main die body height) so that the mouth is small enough to chamber (note that you will need to adjust this again once you do it with lead since the seating process changes things a little). Measure everything. You will see that you do not need to use the FCD.

[popper]

it needs at least 21330 psi to begin obturation Does that come from QL? 50/50 COWW/Pb = 11, WD = 18. How do you equate the bump pressure to BHN?

[RobsTV]

Does that come from QL? 50/50 COWW/Pb = 11, WD = 18. How do you equate the bump pressure to BHN?

The main point I meant to stress was 3.5gr of HP38 and OAL of 1.130 will generate maximum chamber pressure of 13040 psi (Quickloads), which with a 40 S&W, is something I think would be way to low, and below minimum recommended starting load.

The 15 BHN was just a simple guestimation of WD WW, and also about the same as my air cooled alloy. Each WW alloy batch BHN will be slightly different than another unless exact same weights are used, or first each weight is measured for hardness and sorted. Also requires exact same casting temp, water temp, and casting speed to the water. For these reasons, I prefer HT in toaster oven.

If your WD boolits measure 18 BHN, then it would require 25920, which according to QL would need about 4.9gr of HP38 with that Lee boolit at 1.130.

But while all this might make good reading, and reference points to build around, nothing beats the results a shooter obtains with his own gun, alloy and powder.

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCBAlloyObturation.htm

From the link above:
Bullet BHN / "Minimum" Chamber Pressure For Lead Alloys (PSI)

The formula (from the pages of HandLoader Magazine) to determine at what pressure an alloy of given BHN will obturate the base of the bullet and seal the bore. If the bullet is too hard to obturate, gas cutting usually occurs on the base band on the non-driving side of the rifling and barrel leading is likely. Simply multiply the alloy BHN by 1,422.

[PBblaster]

RobsTV,

Thank you very much for the information regarding boolit obturation, I will leave the FCD die to bulge bust range pick ups. I will also increase my load to 4.5 grains of powder and set my seating and crimp die per your instructions. I guess a harndess tester will be in order so I can try keeping my alloy at the same hardness to assure boolit obturation. I really appreciate the education you provided me in your response.

[RobsTV]

Don't get too carried away with technical info.
I think most casters never check hardness and some don't even use a thermometer.

Loading tables for the powder and boolit used is a good starting point, but that can be harder to find when shooting the still fairly new 40 S&W lead.

Cast a few dozen, then shoot and see how things work for you, then adjust as needed. Once you get it down you can pump out 100's or 1000's as desired.

[PBblaster]

I want to make sure I learn the proper way to apply the science behind casting and shooting the boolits made by my own hand. Obturation and pressure go hand and hand, this is clearly a variable I did not take into consideration due to my newbness. I would of continued to make mistakes with powder charge and bullet hardness.

I guess I should research pressure and hardness and decide on where I want to be while getting the best performance from my equipment. Problem being I scrounge lead and do not have the experience to know what composition it may be of, I know what wheel weights are but have had old lead from people who made sinkers, lead pipes and wire sheathing. I try to homogenize all lead sourced and then cast it up. I guess a hardness gauge and known metals and amounts needed to either harden or soften the alloy would be in order.

[RobsTV]

This is a must have if you really want to get into things.
Free pdf can be downloaded, or view with browser.

From Ingot to Target:
A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

Also a good read is:
http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

[popper]

RobsTV - OK, the Lee formula. Unfortunately it doesn't work well for pistol. I agree, the 3.5 load will need softer than 50/50 WW/Pb where most of us use 4.5 gr. I tried pure with 1% tin and got bad leading, in part because the Lee sizer (.401) leaves the soft @ .400.

[PBblaster]

Finally got to the range this weekend, I loaded and shot 30 rounds of my newly cast boolits with the starting load of 4.5 HP38/185 gn at a COL of 1.130.

I'm not sure if I'm getting streaks of lead or the bore is a bit rough considering newness, I could remove most of the streaking with a few passes of a brass cleaning brush. Boolits are sized to .401-2 and I am using 50/50 paraffin vaseline, I recovered one round and could clearly make out the lands and grooves in the boolit. Any insight on what I can do to eliminate the streaking?

[MT Chambers]

I'd try a diff. lube first, my fav. is Carnauba Red.

[PBblaster]

Thank you sir for the response, I will lube my next batch using your suggestion.

[Willbird]

I'm not a fan of smoking mold cavities to get a mold to work, BUT if you did not have to smoke, if you do so it will reduce the dia of the bullets some, could be .001 or more depending on what you use to smoke. I have used butane the most. I try to re clean a mold and can usually can get them to work without smoking, but if I had a "Big" mold I wanted smaller bullets from I sure would try smoking. I had a .452 TL mold that dropped .454 bullets....Lee did replace it with some grumbling. My point was that the TL is sold to use bullets as case, and .454 is a pretty big bullet for some 45 acp's, it caused failure to feed in my gun.

[warf73]

OK I don't get why you would change your powder charge which was proven accurate last shooting season? You also stated that you changed out the factory spring set up for a lighter one to go with your light charge of HP 38. With your heaver charge of powder you could damage your firearm over time considering you shoot comp with it would/could happen in short order. As for the hardness why worry about it at all you also stated you shot store bought boolits last shooting season with your charge of 3.5gr with accuracy I'm guessing or you would have changed your load then, and those store bought boolits are brn 18~25+.

Now you loaded and shot your cast boolits with 4.5grs and getting leading?? Maybe you should go back to were you started and see were you are as it worked before aka 3.5grs. as again I'm guessing you didnt get leading before or you would have changed something last year.

These are all just observations on my part of what has been posted.

Warf

[mpmarty]

I would run the loaded rounds thru a Carbide Factory Crimp die, this will post size your brass/bullet to work in a standard SAAMI chamber. I do this with my Lee TL bullets.
This will guarantee lousy accuracy and plenty of leading. The LEE carbide pistol "FACTORY CRIMP DIE" is a disaster waiting to happen to anyone using it plus the brass springs back and the boolit doesn't so you run the danger of blowing up a gun with boolit setback.