Water Quenching

[richhodg66]

I've heat treated bullets before and gotten them a lot harder. but never was worried about expansion then.

I'm getting into deer hunting with cast, shot one with the Ideal 31141 last year and the Ranchdog 165 grainer this year. Good shot placement on both, but this year, the entry and exit holes were both very small and there was ZERO blood trail, fortunately, I had a good idea where the buck was going and he didn't get very far into the brush before expiring so I found him easily.

My alloy was 50/50 COWW/plumbing solder from cast iron water pipe joints which I assume to be pure or nearly pure with two ounces of tin solder added to a ten lb pot. It shoots pretty well in my .308 with 28 grains of IMR 4895 and a tuft of dacron. I'm guesstimating about 1800 FPS.

What effect would water quenching this alloy have? Obviously, it would make the bullet harder which would probably be conducive to better accuracy at higher velocities, but what would the effect be on expansion on deer? Would that make it so hard it wouldn't expand well? Or would the extra velocity I could get make up for it? The alloy ought to be malleble enough that it wouldn't fracture (I would think) which I believe happenned with my Ideal 31141 last year cast of ACWW and shot from a little higher velocity I think (the deer was also much closer).

Thoughts?

[41 mag fan]

Thats where the milk jugs filled with water will be able to tell you best what it does. I'd think anyone on here could guess what it'll do and theres probably some on here that can tell you what their % of melt does, but IMHO the milk jugs will tell you consistently what your casts at said velocities will do

[richhodg66]

After bugging a couple of members here who are wiser in these things than me the past year or so, I kinda came to the conclusion that I shouldn't over think this too much. Generally the advice was "a blunt nosed bullet of medium to heavy weight for caliber, .30 caliber or bigger cast of 50/50 and pushed around 1800 FPS should do well if shot placement is good (the way I hunt, shots will always be relatively close, so shot placement usually isn't a problem). So far, I agree, but the absence of bllod trail on this one bothered me even though he went down pretty fast, as fast as ones I've shot with full house jacketed loads generally.

Guess I need to find some milk jugs. This load shoots pretty well in my 99, I might could get it to do better. I'll spend the next year tweaking this load. I really never cared for heat treating bullets and would prefer not to, but this Ranchdog mold drops them so easily and the bullets come out very close to what they should be. I size most .30s to .311 and the bullets from the mold barely got polished in a .311 die, it was mostly just to crimp on the gas checks, so water quenching should be easy.

Seems like I reamamber reading an article C.E. Harris did on this with a .375 H&H he planned on hunting with, I wonder of I still have it. Gotta go look through all my junk now.

[runfiverun]

usually pipe joint alloy is high in tin content.
the lead pipes themselves are soft but the joint lead itself is usually 50-50 or so, i'd check the melt temp.
450=tin content.
600-630 ish is pure.
if you want more muuush you want more lead in the mix it affects diameter though.
or you up the velocity.

[Jim]

The old, now defunct, lead pipe was indeed joined with 50/50 or 40/60. The method was called 'wiping'. Before lead free solder was mandated, 50/50 was also used on copper domestic water piping. Cast iron sewer piping, on the other hand (mentioned by the OP), was jointed with straight lead, not an alloy. Plumber's lead, the type used for cast iron sewer piping, never was pure, but it was close. Real pure lead was considered too expensive for such service.

[richhodg66]

These were cast iron pipes I talked a demo crew into letting me smash and carry away the solder rings from a few years ago. Wish I had gotten more of it.

When I cast some conicals for my muzzle loader from them, they didn't shoot well and I know that rifle using that bullet does, so I had to assume it is something not quite pure but is definitely softer than wheel weights.

I have some of these Ranchdogs from the same pot. I may try heat treating a few in the oven and seeing if they shoot accurately at much higher velocities. If they don't, there isn't much use in pursuing it.

[Pepe Ray]

R5R;
Jim is correct ,observing that the OP said "iron pipe joints". Thus the lead will be soft, no tin.
Furthermore I've observed that in most of the posts that I've read, when discussing reclaimed lead from I.P. joints, the reference has always been to "sewage pipes".
Whereas that is the common usage today, such has not always been thus. Most of your older cities that have had public water supplys for many decades used cast iron water mains with poured joints. Cities such as Boston, Portland, ME., Bangor ME. etc yet have many miles of CI water main under ground. Today, when replacing it, newer technowlegy is employed but the source of more boolet material is still there. Keep your eyes peeled for public works projects in older parts of the country. Many treasures can be ransomed for a six pack or a fifth of Beam.

[cbrick]

Assuming that your 1800 fps is accurate or even some faster I suggest dropping the plumbing solder and HT/quenching altogether. I use straight clip-on weights +2% Sn air cooled in my 308 at 1900 fps with good accuracy and no leading.

Rick

[richhodg66]

Assuming that your 1800 fps is accurate or even some faster I suggest dropping the plumbing solder and HT/quenching altogether. I use straight clip-on weights +2% Sn air cooled in my 308 at 1900 fps with good accuracy and no leading.

Rick

My deer last year was with ACWW and it worked well, but I'm pretty sure the bullet fractured some (I bit down on a sliver of lead in the heart when I ate it, the bullet had grazed the heart.

I may go back to that alloy, not sure, but I'd really like it to be malleable to the point where it expands rather than breaks.

I've shot a lot of deer with muzzle loaders over the years, but only ever recovered one bullet. I haven't weighed it, but I don't think it lost much and the expansion was phenominal, twice the original diameter mushroomed all the way back to the base. If I could get even close to that performance from a small bore centerfire, I'd be a pretty happy camper.

[richhodg66]

R5R;
Jim is correct ,observing that the OP said "iron pipe joints". Thus the lead will be soft, no tin.
Furthermore I've observed that in most of the posts that I've read, when discussing reclaimed lead from I.P. joints, the reference has always been to "sewage pipes".
Whereas that is the common usage today, such has not always been thus. Most of your older cities that have had public water supplys for many decades used cast iron water mains with poured joints. Cities such as Boston, Portland, ME., Bangor ME. etc yet have many miles of CI water main under ground. Today, when replacing it, newer technowlegy is employed but the source of more boolet material is still there. Keep your eyes peeled for public works projects in older parts of the country. Many treasures can be ransomed for a six pack or a fifth of Beam.

I got this batch when Fort Riley was demolishing the junior enlisted family quarters, probably built in the 50s, a few years ago to build new ones. The guys doing the work were real nice and even set aside some roof jacks and phone sheathing for me. When quitting time came, several of them salvaged aluminum and copper and some of them lumber (one fella got a whole new barn built from that saslvaged stuff he told me), but none of them cared for the lead so I rounded up a big sledge hammer and smashed iron pipe for a few days.

Now when they do demo projects they won't let anybody near. Sad day, I wosh I had appreciated that situation more.

[cbrick]

My deer last year was with ACWW and it worked well, but I'm pretty sure the bullet fractured some (I bit down on a sliver of lead in the heart when I ate it, the bullet had grazed the heart.

I may go back to that alloy, not sure, but I'd really like it to be malleable to the point where it expands rather than breaks.

Was this a HP? Kinda surprising that WW would fracture in deer at that velocity. Did you use any tin in the air cooled WW last year? Maybe you got hold of some old WW from back when it really did have 6+% sb. I've fired air cooled WW +2% Sn into water at that velocity which is a much harder medium than a deer and it didn't fracture.

Your 50/50 or 60/40 WW to pure should work but I would add 2% Sn, maybe something with the plumbing stuff you got. Something curious here, It'll be interesting to find out.

Rick

[richhodg66]

Was this a HP? Kinda surprising that WW would fracture in deer at that velocity. Did you use any tin in the air cooled WW last year? Maybe you got hold of some old WW from back when it really did have 6+% sb. I've fired air cooled WW +2% Sn into water at that velocity which is a much harder medium than a deer and it didn't fracture.

Your 50/50 or 60/40 WW to pure should work but I would add 2% Sn, maybe something with the plumbing stuff you got. Something curious here, It'll be interesting to find out.

Rick

I did add about two ounces of 95/5 solder to that alloy, should have mentioned that.

That deer was very, very close. I was in a ladder stand in thick woods and heard her and another doe coming quite a while before they came out where I could shoot. Not sure exactly how far, but under ten yards. It wasn't hollow pointed. I do have a Forster tool for hollowpointing, but kind of wonder how much, if any better that would allow things to work. It did leave a large exit hole and bled profusely. She staggered maybe half a dozen steps. layed down, got back up, maybe another half dozen steps and went down for good. I thought it good performance, I had never killed one with a .30-30 before or any small bore cast.