Reader Pressure in Revolvers

[35 Whelen]

I've recently acquired a couple of Uberti SA's in .44 Special. Right now the only bullet I shoot is a 429421 that weighs 248 grs. when cast of ACWW. I've tried a book max load of 13.2 grs. of AL2400. The 5 1/2" gun yielded 933 fps and the cases fell out of the cylinder under their own weight. Tonight I began working with Blue Dot and the same bullet. Working up in .5 gr. increments, I finally ran out of daylight when I got to 11.0 grs. The load clocked at 1069 fps and again the cases just fell out of the chambers without the use of the ejector rod.

At this point I'm gauging pressure by ease of extraction. Is this a safe method?

35W

[Aces an Eights]

My Hornady manual lists max load of Blue Dot for 44 spc 240SWC at 9.1gn (900fps), you might be on the raggedy edge of safety but I'm no expert.

The myth/fact? I hear down at the range is pistol cases do not show pressure signs as well as bottle neck rifle cases.

[35 Whelen]

My manuals list about 9.0 of Blue Dot as max too, but those are ~13K loads. I found my Handloader #236 in which Brian Pearce lists tons of 44 Special loads. In his Catagory 2 loads (22K psi or less) he lists 11.5 grs. as max with a 250 gr bullet. I'll do some more shooting and chrono-ing tomorrow.

35W

[Silver Jack Hammer]

For Blue Dot Dave Skovill in his book "Loading the Peacemaker, Colt's Model P" he lists 13 gr with the 245 gr boolit as absolute max in the Colt SAA .44 Special, I've reduced that to 12 gr of Blue Dot in the 245 gr boolit and it is my most favorite hot load in my Colt SAA .44 Special. I own 3 Colt SAA's in .44 Special. However I only use this load a little bit. I've tested it and I carry it in the field but shoot in sparingly in the Colt.

For 2400 Dave Scovill lists 13.5 gr of 2400 in his book "Loading the Peacemaker, Colt's Model P" and Brian Pierce lists 17 gr for post war Colt SAA's.

My chronograph lists 1,131 with 12 gr of Blue Dot and my 245 gr boolit. 13.5 gr of 2400 with the same boolit clocks at 907 fps out of my 7 1/2" tube. 18 gr of 2400 is doing 1,197 with the 245 Keith boolit, but I tested this in a 6 1/2" Smith Model 29 with Special brass.

[Piedmont]

At this point I'm gauging pressure by ease of extraction. Is this a safe method?

35W

No it is not a safe method. Neither is looking at primers. Fortunately you have a strong gun for that cartridge. Scoville in his book on loading for the Colt SAA has lots of loads. It is worth owning and not just for the load data.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I gave you Brian Pierce's load of 17 gr of 2400 then my chronograph data for 18 gr. My chronograph clocks the 245 gr boolit at 1164 fps with 17.o gr of 2400. Pretty hot.

Pietmont is right on answering your question: "No it is not a safe method. Neither is looking at primers."

13.5 gr of 2400 is safe for a modern SAA .44 Special. For my shooting about 98% is done with 5.2 gr of Bullseye and a 245 gr boolit at 800 fps. If doubt creeps into the back of your mind about a load, listen to that voice of caution. It is you talking to you. Rather than mess with the upper limits of the pressure range for your gun I'd sure suggest you step down to a more comfortable zone.

[44man]

You would be amazed at how heavy a load will have brass fall out easy. It CAN work, looking for sticky brass but you then might be way over what is safe so it is not a good idea.
You will be led astray and be in danger very fast. I know a guy that worked to 30 gr of 296 using a 335 gr boolit in a .45 Colt Ruger, looking for pressure signs. The brass fell out of the gun. DANGER and A WARNING from me.
Flat primers are not an indication either.
Please go by published pressure data.

[35 Whelen]

I'm looking for a hunting load that will be used quite sparingly. I'll likely stop at 1100 fps or a shade more. I already have a load that I carry and shoot a lot and that's 6.5 gr. of Unique with the same 250 gr. bullet for a little over 800 fps.

Silver Jack, thanks for the "published" loads. I don't think I'll load quite that hot, but I'm glad to know a reputable source has tried those loads. I'm still 2.0 full grs. unders his max Blue Dot load and getting close to what I want.

So with regards to reading pressure, if case extraction isn't a reliable method and looking at primers isn't either, (the two methods I've used when working with rifles), then what is? Every loading manual I've ever read warns emphatically to start low and work up slowly watching for signs of pressure.
Mr. Pearce and Mr. Scovill both must've work those loads up on their own while watching for pressure signs.

35W

[Larry Gibson]

At this point I'm gauging pressure by ease of extraction. Is this a safe method?

No, it is not a "safe" method as already mentioned. By the time the cases begin to give "sticky extraction" you will be wel into or above magnum level psi's in the 35-45 psi range. Additionally oif the revolver has really smooth chambers (as in the older "burnished" S&W chambers) the psi could be above that.

Larry Gibsn

[BCRider]

From looking around and working with my own .44Mag loads spitting out 248gn pills at 1070 fps is well over .44Spl country for pressure. It's more like up into .44Spl +P or even light Magnum pressure to get the bullet to go that fast.

Looking at the data for 240 and 250gn loads when kept to around 14K for pressure shows that none of them get over 900 fps other than on rare occasions and not by far. So if you're getting up around 1000fps then you are clearly above the normal max pressure for published loads.

I don't have any information for .44Spl +P loads but looking at the starting loads for 240gn .44Magnums I see that there are a few loads that are pushing the bullets at around the same velocity as your hot hunting load. But I also see that they do it by using from 23K to 26K worth of pressure. That's a LONG way from a .44Spl sort of load.

But as pressure in the casings and on the primers go these are not high amounts of pressure. So it's no surprise that you're not seeing any sort of signs. You simply won't see any until you're up well over what you're using now and well in to max power .44Mag territory. And by that time the gun will have likely exploded.

My suggestion would be to tone down those hotter loads and live with a +P sort of power level of around 900 to maybe 950 fps and call it good.

Besides, as I understand it a 240 to 250 gn bullet at around 900 fps will go clean through a deer.

[35 Whelen]

Thanks for everything guys, but so far everyone's told me what NOT to do. Has no one here ever incrementally worked up loads watching for pressure signs along the way?

I did a little more shooting this morning with the final load being 12.0 grs. of Blue Dot, a full grain below Scovill's max of 13.0 grs. for the Colt SA. Velocity averaged 1132 fps, and I now have a velocity reference for Blue Dot beginning at 9.0 grs and stepping up .5 grs. at a time until the stopping point of 12.0 grs. I doubt I'll ever load this high again, but who knows. I may yet try AL2400 again just for reference.

I also loaded the tried-and-true 7.5 grs. of Unique which ran 962 fps and grouped around 4" @ 50 yds. Last night I ran out of Lyman 429421 ACWW bullets so I cast 100+ and water quenched them so I could shoot them this morning and that's what I used today. I have much more faith in ACWW bullets, but those are still a few days away from being hard enough to size, load and shoot.


My suggestion would be to tone down those hotter loads and live with a +P sort of power level of around 900 to maybe 950 fps and call it good.

FYI, my RCBS Cast Bullet manual lists their 240 SIL bullet @ up to 976 fps out of a 4" Charter Arms and their 240 gr. SWC at a little over 900, and these are NOT +P loads.


35W

[Jim]

I have one of the new 3" Charter Arms Bulldogs. The wall thickness of the chambers is .058". I'm neither a gunsmith nor a ballistician, but in my thinkin', that ain't a whole lot of steel between me and a controlled explosion.

Granted, I'm not using it to hunt with. It's my carry revolver. I stay in the middle of the load window when working up loads for this one. I don't feel like I need a Howitzer on a hand grip for what I use it for.

[fecmech]

At this point I'm gauging pressure by ease of extraction. Is this a safe method?

There is no safe way to judge pressure in any of the "special" (.38, .44, .45acp,etc) or other low pressure cartridges. To me "working up a safe load" in any of those is laughable. Your only reliable method is published data, period( to be in SAMMI pressure specs). Sticking cases, flattened primers(with enlarged pockets) are so far past safe pressures to be unusable as any kind of gauge in low pressure cartridges.

[35 Whelen]

There is no safe way to judge pressure in any of the "special" (.38, .44, .45acp,etc) or other low pressure cartridges. To me "working up a safe load" in any of those is laughable. Your only reliable method is published data, period( to be in SAMMI pressure specs). Sticking cases, flattened primers(with enlarged pockets) are so far past safe pressures to be unusable as any kind of gauge in low pressure cartridges.

Laugh if you will, but Hornady, for example, establishes their data in common revolvers in 38 Spec, .44 Special, etc. as opposed to using test equipment. I wonder how they come by their findings as to what is is a maximum load?

35W

[btroj]

I have no idea how the develop their data. Doesn't matter to me, I trust them. Why? They can't afford the liability of publishing potentially dangerous data.
If you want a 44 mag then buy one. A 44 special does quite nice at 44 special velocities.

[44MAG#1]

Hornady data is worked up in a pressure gun and then fired in a production handgun to get velocity data. Just like Speer does.
Just because they list the handgun the data is fired in DOES NOT mean the data for pressure was worked up in the revolver or auto.
Now one of the ways i use, and it matters not to me that is whether anyone else will agree, is I go by expansion of the fired case.
1. How the case from the factory load sizes eg. does the size die have to size the case less than my reloads in the same brand of brass or more. Does my reloads show sizing signs less or more than factory cases. You can't tell me that if your loads shows sizing stress more than factory loads that the pressure isn't more and vice versa.
2. Measurement of the expansion ring area. Ken Waters used this method and I have found it to be just as good as anything else anyone can come up with.
3. Chronoing velocities is another, eg. my 44 Special Ruger FT with a 45/8's barrel with MY 2400 which is Hercules manuf. with 15.5 gr and a Fed 150 will give 1155 fps for 10 rounds over the chrono with a Lyman 250 gr 429421.. It doesn't need 17.5 of my Herc. 2400 to get close to 1200 like others so it must be close to the pressure 17.5 gives. It is enough.
4. Commonsense usage.
5. NOT USING PRIMER SIGNS
6. NOT USING EXTRACTION SIGNS
These are the ways I use right or wrong.
Others use different signs which is neither right or wrong as long as the person UNDERSTANDS the signs.

[35 Whelen]

Hornady data is worked up in a pressure gun and then fired in a production handgun to get velocity data. Just like Speer does.
Just because they list the handgun the data is fired in DOES NOT mean the data for pressure was worked up in the revolver or auto.
Now one of the ways i use, and it matters not to me that is whether anyone else will agree, is I go by expansion of the fired case.
1. How the case from the factory load sizes eg. does the size die have to size the case less than my reloads in the same brand of brass or more. Does my reloads show sizing signs less or more than factory cases. You can't tell me that if your loads shows sizing stress more than factory loads that the pressure isn't more and vice versa.
2. Measurement of the expansion ring area. Ken Waters used this method and I have found it to be just as good as anything else anyone can come up with.
3. Chronoing velocities is another, eg. my 44 Special Ruger FT with a 45/8's barrel with MY 2400 which is Hercules manuf. with 15.5 gr and a Fed 150 will give 1155 fps for 10 rounds over the chrono with a Lyman 250 gr 429421.. It doesn't need 17.5 of my Herc. 2400 to get close to 1200 like others so it must be close to the pressure 17.5 gives. It is enough.
4. Commonsense usage.
5. NOT USING PRIMER SIGNS
6. NOT USING EXTRACTION SIGNS
These are the ways I use right or wrong.
Others use different signs which is neither right or wrong as long as the person UNDERSTANDS the signs.

Thanks. That's info I can use. I'm familiar with measuring the expansion ring, just hadn't thought to use it on handgun cartridges.

35W

[Silver Jack Hammer]

35 Whelen, I do not have a technique to measure maximum pressures, and I am not familiar with a technique to use. The companies that publish reloading manuals have written about their techniques at achieving their data. They have told us that they discovered that the copper crusher technique used for years has not given us the full picture of pressure throughout the curve and new techniques are used. I'm using Speer #14 right now.

Brian Pearce in Handloader #236 divides the .44 Special into three catagories, Catagory One at 15,500 psi or less, Catagory Two at 22,000 psi or less and Catagory Three at 25,000 psi or less. SAMMI specs is 15,500 psi for the .44 Special. According to Brian Pearce Catagory Two guns are Colt SAA and Charter Arms Bulldogs. Catagory Three guns are the Smith N frames, L frames not including scandium, Freedom Arms 1997, Colt New Service, Ruger .44 Special on the .357 frame.

There are no Blue Dot or 2400 loads in the Catagory One. In Catagory Two with 245 gr cast boolits Blue Dot is listed at 11.5 gr and 2400 at 15.0 gr. This data was published in August 2005. Catagory Three with the same boolit lists Blue Dot at 12.5 and 2400 at 17.0 gr.

Brian Pearce writes about lab tests where guns are destoyed to test their limits then states he cannot publist a lot of the data. He also writes about the new US Firearms with the thicker cylinder being able to withstand greater pressures than the Colt because the cylinder is beefier, and states he had a US Firearms bored out to .44 Mag and has been shooting it for years with no problems.

All this is interesting but in my opinion academic since I avoid the upper limits of pressures in all my guns. You mentioned you had an Italian single action. A old gunsmith who has cut a lot of barrels told me that he recently cut a barrel on an Italian gun and it sure felt different to him. He cut through the Italian steel in less time and with less effort.

[44MAG#1]

Reloading data for most of the manufacturers are derived from minimum SAAMI spec barrels. That way most data will be safe in most production firearms.
It would be stupid to work up data in test barrels that are to the largest size of SAAMI specs due to the loads being on the heavy side due to the generous dimemsions.
Also a Speer tech told me that sometimes they try to find a fast lot of powder to do the work up just due to the fact it was fast and would need less to meet SAAMI specs on pressure.
Loading data from any lab shows only what they achieved in that pressure barrel at that time with a given lot of powder, a given lot of primers, a given lot of cases and a given lot of bullets.
Change any one of those things and the data will be different.
Data is an example of what loads we can safely use within certain limits.
Just because you are using the same brand of primer, same brand and number of powder, same brand of cases and same brand of bullet the load data listed doesn't mean you are getting the same pressure.
Anything less than a test in a pressure gun regardless of who says anything is just anything from a "wag"to a "swag".
Some are more "swag" than a "wag" depending on that persons knowlege and perception and acception of the processes.

[tek4260]

Why not just follow the book? If you want more, get a bigger hammer and leave the 44 Special to do what it was designed to do? Moderate weights at moderate velocity.

Of course I am the guy who fills the case on his 44 and 45's to the base of the boolit with H110. I wouldn't try it on a Uberti though.

[44MAG#1]

"Moderate weights at moderate velocity."
Wasn't that the way the 45 Colt was developed too?
It couldn't be left alone either.

[35 Whelen]

Why not just follow the book? If you want more, get a bigger hammer and leave the 44 Special to do what it was designed to do? Moderate weights at moderate velocity.

Of course I am the guy who fills the case on his 44 and 45's to the base of the boolit with H110. I wouldn't try it on a Uberti though.

Interesting. Some folks having suggested I stay with published data, others "just follow the book" as though these two sources were fool-proof and 100% safe. But I'll say it again, every manual I've ever read warns to (paraphrasing) approach maximum loads carefully watching for pressure signs. What pressure signs?

In thinking through this, I remembered reading one of Dave Scovill's columns in which he'd acquired a box of .44 Special factory ammunition that was headstamped "44 Magnum", indicating that .44 Special brass and .44 Magnum brass were drawn on the same piece of machinery. From a manufacturing standpoint, it would make sense to me that .44 Special brass and .44 Magnum brass would use the same basic case dimensions, differing only in length, enabling the manufacturer to use one machine to make two different type of brass. If time permits today, I intend to section some of my .44 Special brass and some .44 Mag brass to see if they vary dimensionally.

IF they do not vary dimensionally, then what Larry Gibson said would be 100% true; by the time sticky extraction occurred, loads would be well into "magnum level psi's". Likewise, measuring case head expansion would not be reliable due to the fact that a fellow would be measuring the case head of a cartridge case designed to contain pressures generated by the .44 Magnum.

35W

[44MAG#1]

" Likewise, measuring case head expansion would not be reliable due to the fact that a fellow would be measuring the case head of a cartridge case designed to contain pressures generated by the .44 Magnum."

You are thinking too much.
If you fire a 44 special load in a piece of brass whether it be for the 44 Special or mag type configuration thaere should be some deflection of the brass. Right? Right.
What ever that deflection would be for that brass and load is your standard you go by.
There is no brass that is pressure proof.
With heavier brass the expansion is farther up on the case with the lower pressure and lower down on the higher pressure.
The same with lighter brass.
I first used cut down Winchester 44 Mag brass when I got my Ruger FT 44 Special.
Standard 44 Special 15,500 psi will deflect the brass to some degree. What ever that degree is is your pressure standard.
If you have a loading book, just to prove to yourself, take a 44 Special case and a cut down 44 Mag case of the same make and load a book max 44 Special load with your bullet and check. Make sure you fire the cases in the same chamber to keep everything the same.
Winchester cases seem to be the thinnest.
Another way is with a chrono. Take some loads put up in 44 special cases and the same load in a few 44 Mag cases of the same brand and cut down and chrono both.
You will then know what a standard book load will do in 44 special brass and the same load in the supposedly thicker 44 Mag brass.
They will be close; maybe closer than two different lots of the same powder in the 44 Special. See my reference to a chronograph in my earleir post???????
Again instead of wondering experiment. That is what I do.
Action taken is lot better than wondering in waiting.
In asking anything on the internet ones own experimenting will tell one more as there are more advice on the internet than Carter has liver pills.
The best advice is to "do".
As long as you use the "ole noggin".

[Larry Gibson]

Case head expansion is very dependent on the strength of the brass at the case head. Not all brass cases are made of the same brass alloy, have the same strength nor the same dimensions. Thus they all can expand (if they expand) at different psi's. Unless you have the equipment to actually measure psi you will not know what the psi was when/if expansion occurs. However, with normal brass cartridges by the time you get a measurable expansion at the case head the psi's are well over acceptable magnum levels. I have seral lots of US made 5.56 NATO that give no case head expansion until the psi is 70,000+.

Expansion at the expansion ring (forward of the case head where the case thins out) can give you an idea as to whether the load used is less than, about equal to or larger than the psi of a known load of a known psi. The brass must be knew unfired of the same make and lot for both the test and known load. This is an easy way to duplicate a factory psi level with a cartridge. However, the psi's of many low end target loads are very erratic (erratic does not mean dangerous BTW) and loads with psi" below 12-15,000 psi many times do not give reliable expansion at the expansion ring. Ever notice all that powder blow back residue on 38 SPL and 44 SPL target loads and even standard factory 45 Colts? It often takes 7-9,000 psi to 14,-15,000 psi to obturate many cartridge cases; thicker magnum cases require even more.

Stick with published data from reputable sources unless you are well experienced at developing top end loads. Should you choose to go beyond published reliable data and if you "go a bridge too far" please don't blame the damaged gun, the gun manufacturer, the powder, etc. ad nauseum......just accpet the blame yourself for what happened, learn the lesson and hopefully you won't be injured too badly.

Larry Gibson

[44MAG#1]

"Case head expansion is very dependent on the strength of the brass at the case head. "
Very correct

"Not all brass cases are made of the same brass alloy, have the same strength nor the same dimensions."
Correct again. That is why we use the same brass to check a pressure standard and our loading data we work up ourselves

"However, with normal brass cartridges by the time you get a measurable expansion at the case head the psi's are well over acceptable magnum levels. "
true again if one is stuck at measuing at the case head all the time. There will be some expansion farther up on the case even with a low pressure round unless it so low that it would have to be measuded with a LUP tester.

" However, the psi's of many low end target loads are very erratic (erratic does not mean dangerous BTW) and loads with psi" below 12-15,000 psi many times do not give reliable expansion at the expansion ring. "
True again that is why we look for expansion farther up the case. we know it takes quite a bit more pressure to move the dimensions .001" much closer to the base that farther from the base as the brassis thicker as we move toward the base.

"It often takes 7-9,000 psi to 14,-15,000 psi to obturate many cartridge cases; thicker magnum cases require even more."\
It can obturate right? Right, just farther up from the base.

"Stick with published data from reputable sources unless you are well experienced at developing top end loads. "
I have changed my mind. Now i am agreeing to this 850 to is more than enough for a 44 Special.

[35 Whelen]

First of all, I'm not arguing any points or trying to prove anything. This to me, has become an academic discussion, which is good, so everyone just chill out!
Thank God there was no internet in Elemer Keith's days, lest we'd have no .44 Magnum.


Gotta run to town so I'm short on time, but here's a couple of interesting notes:

I sectioned a couple of .44 Special cases; a Remington and a Starline, and a Federal .44 Magnum. On both .44 Sp cases the area of brass between the bottom of the primer pocket and the interior of the case is somewhat thinner in the .44 Sp's when compared to the .44 Magnum. The Remington 44 Sp brass walls are thinner just ahead just ahead of the rim than those of the .44 Mag, BUT the walls of the Starline brass (new) are a little thicker than those of the .44 Magnum. Figure that out....

For what it's worth, yesterday I did a little load development & chronographing during which I measured case head expansion. Using Unique, and the 250 gr. SWC, the difference in case expansion between 6.5 grs. (.4 grs. under Alliants recommendation) and 7.5 grs. (.6 grs. over Alliants recommendation) ran .0010" to .0015".

35W

[44MAG#1]

What i am about to type is based on my own experience and is not a recommendation to anyone since it is over standard 44 Special data as produced by Speer #14 and Lyman #49 loading manuals.
Fired from a 45/8's Ruger FT Blackhawk.
I looked back at some of my data that was fired in Win. 44 special cases and some fired in cut down Win. 44 Mag cases with 15.0 gr Herc. 2400 and Federal 150's using an H&G #503G Keith and the 44 special cases clocked 1152 fps and the cut down 44 Mag cases ran 1123 fps.
Now a test i did with two different lots of 2400 in the 45 colt with a Mihec 270 SAA bullet (I know it's not a 44 Special) showed 53 fps difference with all other components being the same and the same charge weight powder chronoed on the same day back to back.
Now in the 45 Colt with the same lot of Herc.2400 and the Fed 150 and the CCI 300 with the same components with the same charge weight the velocity with the Fed 150 was 1067 and the CCI was 1140 fps.
This just for reference to the differences in lots of powder and 2 differnt primers and 44 Mag cases vs 44 Special cases from the same manufactuerer.
Now what were we saying about loading data????

[leftiye]

Buy some factory loads. Fire them and mike the cases. Use that same brand of case and load it to that level of pressure/expansion. If you watch the stretch marks (or scuffing - when starting without having done step one) it will let you know when pressure starts to getting too high (there ain't none - stretching marks - until a certain level of expansion happens). Also, when working up loads there is a level of case expansion that happens almost immediately (at low pressures), expansion will plateau at that size. When expansion goes another half thou you are starting to flex the cylinders and should quit and go back to the previous loads if you're dealing with (old) .38 special, 44 special, etc cartridges. Modern guns in these calibers generally are not built to the old pressure levels, haven't been for maybe 50 years. But don't get too crazy with pushing this. Logically, you can't blow up a cylinder without flexing it to a striking amount. Though on a charter or other lightweight barrel you can bulge the barrel without hurting the cylinder. Flame on amigos.

[44MAG#1]

I'll throw this out there too but it has nothing to do with the 44 special but it shows about loading data.
Hornady and speer both says not to heavily taper crimp your reloads in the 45 ACP.
If you will pull a Hornady factory load they heavily taper crimp their cartridges and that is H-E-A-V-i-L-Y. the bullets are indented quite a bit considering what they tell us to do.
Speer does the same thing too.
Now why do they tell us one thing but do another thing themselves?
Now Federal a division of Allient tech systems like Speer doesn't do their 230 gr Hardball ammo like that as the flare is straightend out and that is all.
Makes one wonder at times.
Just though i would throw that out there as a bit of info i have found to be true through being inquisitive
Here is another tidbit.
Maybe a year ago a well know citizen of the forum cast Boolits experienced very erratic ignition in the 454 Casull with top end 45 Colt H110 charges with a 335 gr bullet If i remember correctly.
Hodgdon lists that charge as a start load with H110 for the 454 Casull and that bullet.
That load is too low for the 454 Casull with H110. Why did they list that load? I know as a 454 Casull owner that load is too low for consistent performance.
Now Speer #14 lists for the 45 Colt Ruger loads with the 260 gr JHP 20 gr H110 as max but list 23.5 gr as max with the 300 gr.
Now I know the 260 was worked up on a Piezo transducer gun and the 300 gr was tested on copper crusher method but both systems uses the same calibration ammo.
Another good example that loading data while GOOD to go by and SHOULD BE HEEDED (which I do mostly) to a large degree how do we explain these examples
How do we understand these things?

[Larry Gibson]

Thank God there was no internet in Elemer Keith's days, lest we'd have no .44 Magnum.

Lest we forget Elmer learned many lessons the hard way......he lost the top strap and cylinder on numerous revolvers........

Lest we forget also it was Remington and S&W that developed the 44 Magnum with lots of then state of the art pressure testing equipment not Elmer. Yes Elemer provided the direction but even he said the the 44 Magnum was far above what he expected. Remington developed the ammuntion and S&W revamped their heat treatment of the L framed revolvers to handle the psi. Elmer's heavy 44 SPL loads did/do not reach the psi that the original factory 44 magnum loads produce.

Larry Gibson

[44MAG#1]

Oh yes, I am sure, to the delight of many, I am through posting on this thread and am going to let the far more intellegent people hash this out.
Intellegence has never been my strong suit.
Oh yes, if I recall correctly and sometimes I don't Keith damaged 2 guns that i can recollect according to his book "Sixguns" The first was a loading gate leaving for parts unknown and the other was a sixgun that was his friends that was a cheaply made revolver.
I may be wrong but I have been a great fan of Elmer Keith and don't remember him being a demolition derby of sixguns.
Like that "elk' he killed at 600 yards with his "4 inch" M29. Not.

[JHeath]

This thread started by asking how read pressure by looking at brass. This is a universal issue, not just for revolvers although the specifics are a little different.

It seems a basic question since we've been reloading brass cartridges with smokeless for well over a century now, but answers are all over the map. Some posters say it can't be done, and nobody seems to say authoritatively that it can be done, and how.

The most interesting brass-reading comments I have seen elsewhere came from Clark Magnuson. He does not try to creep up on yet stay below bursting pressures. His M.O. is to creep up on *and through* bursting pressures to establish the failure mode of gun designs. He deliberately blows up guns. Clark seems to believe that brass is "readable" before it bursts.

Clark reports piercing primers, or primers falling out, before "failure." A mortal like me never wants to see those signs because I can't afford to blow up a gun and am scared of doing it. For me a pierced primer is a failure and means I've gone much too far.

I am reminded of motorcycle racing where they say "You don't know how fast you can go until you've crashed."

Most motorcyclists I know can't accept the idea of crashing so haven't learned much about it. Maybe they get within 20% of crashing, or 1%. They don't know. That doesn't stop them from talking about it like experts.

Here's another saying: "There is no honor in crashing with the brakes on." I can't afford to live like that but I do try to get the benefit of the experience of the guys who do. For reloaders that's P.O. Ackley and Elmer Keith and Clark Magnuson and who else? Those are the guys to ask.

[44man]

"Maybe a year ago a well know citizen of the forum cast Boolits experienced very erratic ignition in the 454 Casull with top end 45 Colt H110 charges with a 335 gr bullet If i remember correctly.
Hodgdon lists that charge as a start load with H110 for the 454 Casull and that bullet." Quote.
Might have been me. It was the SR mag primer. Changing primer pockets to a LP let even the Fed 150 ignite all loads with the 155 being more accurate. The start loads can be dangerous because of the primer. The .454 should NEVER have been made for the SR primer.
You have seen a difference between a LP and a LP mag and is why I feel safe listing my loads WITHOUT a mag primer. The higher velocity achieved with mag primers is no reason to go to them at all. There is never any reason to stretch velocity and pressures.
You just do not know what you are shooting or how safe it is if you look for pressure signs like sticky brass or flat primers so just back off and forget it.
Primers are looked at too much with thoughts that certain ones withstand pressures better but it is not true. The .454 is one because it works at extreme pressure but the Fed 155 I tested to over 55,000 psi was not even as flat as from my .44's because it is the gun, head space, etc. The primers from the .454 looked normal with rounded edges.
The SR mag in the .454 failed to light the powder if it was not a max load, too much pressure with no fire. Remember Dick used duplex and triplex loads while testing and had Bullseye ahead of the primer. For some reason the SR primer stuck but it is wrong.
Beware of starting loads from any book.
Some of you scare the hell out of me. The .44 special is not a .44 mag, the .38 is not a .357, the .480 is not a .475 and the .500 JRH is not a .500 S&W. The primer itself can put you over the top or fail to ignite the powder.

[35 Whelen]

Maybe a year ago a well know citizen of the forum cast Boolits experienced very erratic ignition in the 454 Casull with top end 45 Colt H110 charges with a 335 gr bullet If i remember correctly.
Hodgdon lists that charge as a start load with H110 for the 454 Casull and that bullet.
Might have been me. It was the SR mag primer. Changing primer pockets to a LP let even the Fed 150 ignite all loads with the 155 being more accurate. The start loads can be dangerous because of the primer. The .454 should NEVER have been made for the SR primer.
You have seen a difference between a LP and a LP mag and is why I feel safe listing my loads WITHOUT a mag primer. The higher velocity achieved with mag primers is no reason to go to them at all. There is never any reason to stretch velocity and pressures.
You just do not know what you are shooting or how safe it is if you look for pressure signs like sticky brass or flat primers so just back off and forget it.
Primers are looked at too much with thoughts that certain ones withstand pressures better but it is not true. The .454 is one because it works at extreme pressure but the Fed 155 I tested to over 55,000 psi was not even as flat as from my .44's because it is the gun, head space, etc. The primers from the .454 looked normal with rounded edges.
The SR mag in the .454 failed to light the powder if it was not a max load, too much pressure with no fire. Remember Dick used duplex and triplex loads while testing and had Bullseye ahead of the primer. For some reason the SR primer stuck but it is wrong.
Beware of starting loads from any book.
Some of you scare the hell out of me. The .44 special is not a .44 mag, the .38 is not a .357, the .480 is not a .475 and the .500 JRH is not a .500 S&W. The primer itself can put you over the top or fail to ignite the powder.

Did you maybe copy and paste into the wrong post? Coffee not kicked in yet? And don't be afraid. My handloads won't hurt you.:-D

[Potsy]

Brian Pearce's article in Handloader #236 is an outstanding piece on the .44 Special and I'd make every effort to acquire a copy if I didn't own it already but wanted to handload a .44 Special.
I've run a 429421 and 7grn. H-Universal in my 624 for a couple hundred rounds and it has survived despite being above Hogdon's recommended max.
I will say this (at the risk of being chastised), I've never tried to push it to 1200fps (that is why there are heavy framed .45 Colts, which is a hole 'nother can of worms!!), and I've much more faith in a postwar Smith, Colt, Ruger, or USFA than MOST (not all) things floating over from Europe.
Not knocking a Uberti, I just wouldn't have as much of an urge to push it.

[44man]

Did you maybe copy and paste into the wrong post? Coffee not kicked in yet? And don't be afraid. My handloads won't hurt you.:-D
Don't know! Too old to remember but to look for max pressure is wrong.
I DID find stuck boolits in the .454. PRIMER! I can't deny it.
I did copy and paste and there is no separation from what 44mag#1 said and my response, sorry I can't help that.

[44man]

I changed the post to reflect what we each said.

[Larry Gibson]

Recently I did a major project develping cowboy action loads using VV Tin Star powder. Within that test I pressure tested (Oehler M43 with a Contender test barrel) numerous factory loads for each cartridge which included the 44 SPL. Those loads were also fired in at least 2 test revolvers and a rifle. Call it a "WAG" or a "SWAG" if you will but I measured the psi and also case expansion at the expansion ring of the cartridges. I can tell you that with the 44 SPL the psi is so low (same applies to other cartridges in that psi range) that case head expansion is non existent and expansion at the pressure ring, if there is any, is so inconsistent as to be non useable. By the time expansion at the expansion ring is consistent enough for use the psi is at the top end of the +P range and into the lower end of the magnum range.

I've tested Skeeter's classic load (429421 over 7.5 gr Unique) numerous times with old Hercules and new Alliant Unique and the average psi (M43) runs about 22,500 psi +/-. A couple 44 Magnum factory loads run 24,500 psi (same test barrel) so we see the psi is getting up there in the Skeeter loads at the top end of +P range. Factory 44 SPL loads from the same test barrel run <9,000 to 14,400 psi.

If one wants a 44 magnum one should geta 44 magnum (my opinion). With a 44 SPL FT Ruger I would not exceed, in modern new 44 SPL cases, Skeeter's Unique load or Keith's old 16.5 gr load under the same 429421. Were I developing a load like 35 Whelen is I would not exceed 1000 fps (4 5/8s or 6" barrel) with any powder slower that Unique such as Blue dot. To do so would probably be boosting psi above what is really healthy for a new Ruger 44 SPL FT (again, my opinion).

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Larry is right. If you want a .44 mag, buy one.
The quest for velocity only does not sit well with me.

[PS Paul]

So is it safe to surmise at this point, despite what factories tell us, that in revolver calibers of non-magnum performance, there are no tell-tale signs of "over-pressure" that can possibly or SAFELY be "watched for" in the observations of the handloader who does not have pressure-testing equipment?
Signed,
Captain Obvious

[fecmech]

so is it safe to surmise at this point, despite what factories tell us, that in revolver calibers of non-magnum performance, there are no tell-tale signs of "over-pressure" that can possibly or safely be "watched for" in the observations of the handloader who does not have pressure-testing equipment?
Signed,
captain obvious

YES you are correct. BY the time you see any signs of pressure you are way past safe SAMMI operating pressures.

[35 Whelen]

Brian Pearce's article in Handloader #236 is an outstanding piece on the .44 Special and I'd make every effort to acquire a copy if I didn't own it already but wanted to handload a .44 Special.
I've run a 429421 and 7grn. H-Universal in my 624 for a couple hundred rounds and it has survived despite being above Hogdon's recommended max.
I will say this (at the risk of being chastised), I've never tried to push it to 1200fps (that is why there are heavy framed .45 Colts, which is a hole 'nother can of worms!!), and I've much more faith in a postwar Smith, Colt, Ruger, or USFA than MOST (not all) things floating over from Europe.
Not knocking a Uberti, I just wouldn't have as much of an urge to push it.

My back issue of Handloader #236 arrived last week. Great article. I've actually gleaned more from Dave Scovill's columns than anywhere. IMHO the guy is truly a modern pioneer in the world of single actions and cast bullets.


I've tested Skeeter's classic load (429421 over 7.5 gr Unique) numerous times with old Hercules and new Alliant Unique and the average psi (M43) runs about 22,500 psi +/-.

I am by no means a ballistician, but I have to ask: Are you sure your equipment is calibrated correctly? Alliant's current on-line guide shows a 6.9 grs. of Unique and a 250 gr. Keith SWC as a max load which I think it's safe to assume is at or below SAAMI specs. Likewise, my 49th Edition Lyman shows 6.9 with the 429421 as max @ 13,300 pressure. If the pressures you state are indeed accurate, that would mean a .6 gr increase in powder came pretty close to doubling the pressure. Maybe a difference in test firearms? If so, a logical conclusion would lead us to the fact that if different firearms can show that much of a difference in pressure to the positive, then they could also show that much that if that much difference to the negative, right?


If one wants a 44 magnum one should geta 44 magnum (my opinion).



Larry is right. If you want a .44 mag, buy one.

That's just it, I DON'T want a .44 Magnum. :-D If I did, I would've bought one years ago.


With a 44 SPL FT Ruger I would not exceed, in modern new 44 SPL cases, Skeeter's Unique load or Keith's old 16.5 gr load under the same 429421.

I don't own a flat top and likely never will, but I have to ask: If the flat top is chambered for rounds such as the .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum which run pressures in the 35k range, why would you limit them the 25K .44 special loads?


So, just for the record and the sake of argument, someone tell me why Mr. Skelton loaded 7.5 gr. of Unique in his S&W's, Colt's, etc. .44 Specials with no problems. Likewise, how did Mr. Keith load his (OLD) Colt SA's with 250 gr. SWC's up to 1200 fps with no problems? Why are such loads timebombs nowadays when they weren't decades ago?

And one last question (again): If pressure signs cannot be relied upon during load development, then why do handloading manuals warn us to start low and work up while "watching for signs of pressure"?

Love to chat, but the snow is melting and my .44's are crying to be shot! (With loads that may exceed SAAMI specs)

35W

[fecmech]

And one last question (again): If pressure signs cannot be relied upon during load development, then why do handloading manuals warn us to start low and work up while "watching for signs of pressure"?
Because all load manuals usually include rifle and magnum pistol rounds where pressure signs show after you exceed safe pressures. Also some CYA involved.

As far as Skeeter and Elmer, they knew they were overloading their Colts, they were betting on the safety margins built into the guns just like many of us do. I doubt we would blow up any of the modern .44's using their loads today. This thread was not about the guns blowing up but about a reliable way for a non-instrumented handloader to read pressure in a .44 special or any other low pressure round. I stand by my statement that there isn't any way to tell an overpressure in those cartridges till you are way past SAMMI specs. Would I lose sleep being 5K psi over spec in a new .44 spec revolver, not a bit, but I would not bet much money on working up a 15KPSI load for a .44spec with an unknown powder.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

35 Whelen makes good points. I sent a message to Speer and asked them why they say in their #14 it is safe to load a .45 Colt 250 gr boolit to 1028 fps with Blue Dot, 942 fps with H. Universal and 972 fps with 2400 in a Colt SAA but my Colt SAA in .44 Special with thicker cylinder walls their max load with a 250 gr boolit is 964 fps with 2400, 880 fps with H. Universal and 1014 fps with SR4756. I've been waiting months but no reply.

[BCRider]

If the pressures you state are indeed accurate, that would mean a .6 gr increase in powder came pretty close to doubling the pressure. Maybe a difference in test firearms?

Because as you fill the casing up the pressure does not increase in any sort of linear fashion? With powders that fill a goodly portion of the casings there's not a lot of open space. So as you near the max load for the big volume filling charges it does not take a lot of a change to result in a big final pressure change. By going up you're using more powder to create more gas in less volume. So you see a seriously non linear rise in chamber pressure.

Having said this it is also apparent from reading the different reloading resources that the different sources have different final results for some reason. Not being privy to the equipment used it is difficult to suggest why this is. But the classic and valid response is to stick to loads published by either the makers of the powders or sources of similar reliability such as Lyman reloading guides and others of similar stature in the reloading field.

Which brings us back to the idea that if you want to dance around the limits or stretch the limits on a .44Spl platform then why didn't you simply buy a .44Mag gun and "download" to suit rather than try to push the limits on a .44Spl platform? Without knowing the metallurgy of your .44Spl gun it seems to me that you're gambling that the cylinder and frame are the same alloy and heat treating as the hotter and higher pressure .44Mag gun. A fact which may or may not be the case.

[35 Whelen]

Which brings us back to the idea that if you want to dance around the limits or stretch the limits on a .44Spl platform then why didn't you simply buy a .44Mag gun and "download" to suit rather than try to push the limits on a .44Spl platform? Without knowing the metallurgy of your .44Spl gun it seems to me that you're gambling that the cylinder and frame are the same alloy and heat treating as the hotter and higher pressure .44Mag gun. A fact which may or may not be the case.

First, because I'm a curious person that enjoys finding answers. Second, see Post #42, third paragraph. :mrgreen:

35W

[44man]

I do not have a Ruger in .44 special and have to wonder if it was built on the .357 frame and cylinder????
Smaller cases create more pressures for a velocity. That is why the 45-70 BFR can exceed the .454 with half the pressure.
Some powders will "spike" in a smaller case with just a small addition.
The old timers did blow up a lot of guns.

[Bwana]

35 Whelen makes good points. I sent a message to Speer and asked them why they say in their #14 it is safe to load a .45 Colt 250 gr boolit to 1028 fps with Blue Dot, 942 fps with H. Universal and 972 fps with 2400 in a Colt SAA but my Colt SAA in .44 Special with thicker cylinder walls their max load with a 250 gr boolit is 964 fps with 2400, 880 fps with H. Universal and 1014 fps with SR4756. I've been waiting months but no reply.

One thing you seem to be forgetting is that a 250gr 45 Colt boolit has a lower sectional density than a 44 Special boolit of the same weight. Because of this it will take less force, pressure, to move it along at the same velocity as the 44 boolit of the same weight, all other things being equal. And they will not be equal because, given the same overall length, the 45 round's boolit will be seated less deeply.