40-303 versus 357-303 wildcat for hunting?

[303Guy]

I have an itch to build a 357-303 or a 40-303 short barreled bush gun with the idea of getting a heavy boolit up to a good speed. I was thinking 300gr at 1800fps or 250gr at 2000fps or thereabouts. The question being, which is the better all round caliber? Is there any advantage of a 40 over the 357 at all? Ok, so a 40 can have a larger meplat and would be faster with a heavier boolit but that would come with a disadvantage at longer range I should think. Or would it? The 40 would be a semi-straight wall case which would allow for the use of a fiber wad which I like and would allow for deeper seating so the 40-303 has an appeal as a cartridge but what about on game? Is the 357 that much larger than the 303 to make it worthwhile? I can drive a 220gr, fat meplat 303 boolit to nearly 1700fps already and I can't have both 357 and 40 cals.

[jhalcott]

The straight case MAY be a problem in a bolt gun, assuming your build is on a .303 brit gun. I THINK a .40 caliber bullet would hit a bit harder at normal woods ranges, though RECOIL could be stouter. Depending on WHAT you are shooting at, either should do at 100 yards or so. Bigger critters means a bigger bullet in my mind. The work of reforming the cases and cost of dies might make ME decide on the smaller case (I'm lazy!)
I'm NOT sure why the .40 would be FASTER than the .357!? I've taken deer with the .444 and the .35 Remington in lever guns. The 35 has a longer reach but LESS "knock down" then the .444 in MY opinion. The .444 loses speed a bit quicker than the 35 rem. Both of your choices have merits.

[MT Gianni]

What is the longest shot in the area you hunt? Either would serve a purpose. 35 advantage would be mold & check availability and speed. 40 wins in the meplate and weight, loses with the need for custom molds.

[Blammer]

more boolit choices in 357 caliber

[Silvercreek Farmer]

I vote for 357. Go ahead and look at the 358 Winchester while you are in the neighborhood, but by no means am I discouraging you from building a one of a kind rifle!

[runfiverun]

peter.
split the difference,look at a 375 x 303.
you get the added diameter and the additional distance.
plus the benefit of a big enough case mouth to use the fillers [okay not a cereal type]

[303Guy]

Well, the Brit has been chambered in 45/70 as well as 45/90 but in single stack form. I thought about 44 but am concerned about boolit alignment on feeding from the mag. 357-303 would be great and I know it will feed and it still has a semi-straight walled case but barrels are like hens teeth.

Case forming dies will be a bit of a mission but I have a lathe and a plan. I already have 41 forming dies I have made. Molds would be made by me too. 357 would have more range and a higher sectional density boolit.

Why I say a 40 would have higher velocity is by virtue of it having a greater expansion ratio and a lower sectional density boolit. Shots could easily go over 150m. But the idea is stopping power as well as penetration. For me it's a toss up.

[303Guy]

OK, so Green Mountain do have a 375 barrel blank although it is three times the price of the 40 or 357 barrel blank. Shipping is going to cost some.

[runfiverun]

you might be able to get a pac-nor from italy easier than a bbl from the states.

[MT Gianni]

I read an article years ago where a man made a custom mold in 375. He cut the grease grooves 1/4" wide and inserted pieces of previously cut 3/8" OD copper pipe in the mold in 2-3 grooves. There was no other lube, IIRC. The ww alloy was poured through the bands and shot @ near jacket velocity. It made me want a 375 and a custom mold budget.

[303Guy]

I found this picture of a 41-303 case I made a while back.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/41-303002.jpg

[runfiverun]

chicken thief has an rcbs .416 350gr mold in the swappin and sellin section that would lay the smack down on anything that got in front of it. :lol:
just sayin.
the copper tube base and plain lead front boolits work the treat at 312 diameter.
3/8ths copper tubing is in the 379 ish area..

[303Guy]

Just found this pic of a 40-303 case I made, still on the expander.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-478F.jpg

And pics of 375-303 aka 38/Hawkins.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/JeffinNZcartridges.jpg

You can see why that would be my first choice!

To me it's the best compromise or balance between case capacity, case shape, expansion ratio, bore diameter and boolit sectional density.

Green Mountain have them at US$100 against US$33 for the 40 or 357 cal. I could build two 375's with the blank though. Not sure what I would do with the second one. :roll:

[dragonrider]

"I can't have both 357 and 40 cals. " Why not????

[runfiverun]

get a gas check on those things and you have a 375 winchester.
they are good to 150 yds for just about anything you'll encounter.
and further for deer and such.
a 200-300 gr boolit at 15-1800+ fps ain't anything to walk in front of.

[303Guy]

Why not????Don't have enough actions. Or do I? Mmmm..... Actually, I do.

The 375-303 is a bit more gutsy than the 375 Winchester. Probably in the order of the difference between the 303 Brit and the 30-30. However, I'm not looking for maximum recoil! Just more performance from a short barrel than a 303 would deliver which is not insignificant.

Pac-Nor prices are quite high and that's before shipping.

[AnnieOakley]

I vote for 357. Go ahead and look at the 358 Winchester while you are in the neighborhood, but by no means am I discouraging you from building a one of a kind rifle!
The 356 Winchester should be more like the 38 Hawkin/357/303. It's essentially a 358 Winchester with a rim designed for use in lever action rifles. I went to the gun store last Christmas to buy my husband a SMLE but it was already sold. :( He still wants one.

[runfiverun]

the stock configuration mitigates a lot of the 375's recoil.
my marlin is quite a bit more comfortable to shoot than my winchester is with the same loads.
the win is a bit more accurate and more familiar to me.
the 358/356 win types are good rounds too.
i loaned my 358 win to my buddy to reduce the deer numbers eating his hay using the saeco #248 [250gr boolit] using an alloy of 1.5/3/and .25% copper, water dropped.
over 48.5 grs of rl-19 with a fed 210 primer.
he took three deer with it in two days, and didn't want to return the rifle.
the longest shot was about 125 yards but the rifle will shoot out to 200 without any hold over. [i sight in 3" high at 100]
the 35-303 should easily do the same thing.

[longbow]

I got to ask ~ why go wildcat when you could chamber to .444 Marlin? Brass might be a bit pricey but it is a stock caliber, lots of moulds available and likely no real trajectory disadvantage compared to .40 cal either.

I think it is a pretty easy conversion and I have thought about it myself.

.45-70 is another good choice but the conversion might be a bit more difficult due to larger rim.

If you are bent on a wildcat and using .303 brass I bet you could make a .44 Rhino using .303 brass. I have an old article about the .44 Rhino chambered in a Dan Wesson revolver if memory serves and the brass was made from .30-40 Krag brass. Kinda like .445 Supermag.

Longbow

[303Guy]

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/44Rhino.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/44Rhino-2.jpg
This will work!

41-303 I think
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/s6300569-tm.jpg

I could go 444 Marlin and still use 303 cases and I do actually want to use 303 cases. Feeding from the mag may be problematic with a straight walled cartridge whereas I know the 375-303 will feed. I think the 41-303 will also feed but I don't really want to go over 40 cal. I'm also wanting a straight wall case or should I say, a shoulderless case. I want to be able to seat deep as well as use thick wads if I want to. One of my objectives is to go to those higher velocities without using a gas-check. However, I know I won't go wrong with a 357-303 and since I'll be making the chamber I can give it as long a neck as I want as well as a shallow shoulder and maybe even reduce body taper a bit for more volume. But I like the bigger bore option more.

Recoil will be controlled by the suppressor which will be fitted.

I think also that the 41 produces a parallel case interior which is a consideration too, making the 41 about the optimum large bore wildcat for the 303 case. From a resale point the 41 may be better choice although 375 bullets are equally available. A 40 cal might be limited to pistol bullets which is no good for hunting.

[Stephen Cohen]

The 375 303 sounds like a winner, I was looking at doing one on my Lee till I got my 375 whelen. Maybe the 40 303 is another candidate, I have seen 45 70 built on Lee action but is a lot of work and shell rims need to be turned down, other than that I would love a 45 70. I guess you have the same problem with Rino in cabbage patch as we do here lol.

[MBTcustom]

Go 40 cal. I know how you load, how you shoot, how you hunt, and what you like in a rifle, having been involved in so many threads.
Here's my logic based on reading and looking at lots of groups. You sir are a 303 guy (figures), but you are also a dyed in the wool paper patcher. The 357 would be a step up from your 303, but only as far as knockdown power. For PPing it's still on the finicky side. 40+ caliber starts to settle down and shoot (I think it has something to do with the mass of the projectile) If I were to pick a caliber that would be easy to paper patch, and would still fit in a British action, it would be the 444 marlin. However, the 444 is falling out of popularity and its rather hard to find brass for it. You need something that you can make out of readily available 303 British cases.
One could make the argument that the 358 cal would benefit more than the 44 cal from a paper jacket, but honestly, anything bigger than the .312 diameter starts getting heavier, and dropping into GG velocities so its a bit of a mute point. 358 still can't give you what it wants to unless you PP it, but since you are now hampered by the strength of the action (keep it under 50K remember?) You are going to have to run in the sub-2400fps range, and it gets slower the bigger diameter you go.

[303Guy]

Thanks Tim. You are quite right. I'd like a boolit up 300gr but probably closer to 250gr. If I look at the 44 Rhino and see its velocities (betcha the pressure is high for the Brit) and proportionate it down, the 40 or 41 should deliver my magic number of 2000fps with a 250gr boolit and a 300gr at 1800fps. What more do I need? Unless I meed a cantankerous feral bull! One doesn't hear of that much (never, actually) but even so, it would be nice knowing I can take one down. And the idea is indeed to paper patch but with the ability to come close with GG for casual shooting with less effort. Occasionally I find an opportunity for longer shots so decent trajectory is desirable. So I think I'll keep looking toward 40/41. Maybe I'll build two, one for me and one for my lady.

[runfiverun]

the 41 would probably end up more a 416 for rifle type boolit molds.
of course you only need one mold

[303Guy]

Rimless 45/70 anyone?

56696

http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp46/ab_bentley/762natoin3006.jpg

That's a 308 case fired in a 30-06 chamber. Simply put, a rimless 45-70 could be made from 30-06 brass or 308 brass. That would solve the rim problem in a Lee Enfield. From what I can tell, there is nothing wrong with the 45-70! Not sure I wan't that much recoil though. Mind you, there is going to be a suppressor.

Just how well does a 300gr 45-70 boolit perform at normal velelocities for 45-70? With the right powder it'll deliver 2450fps with a 300gr (from a full length barrel that is.

An odd thought; since it would headspace on the case mouth, would this not make an ideal paper patch cartridge?

I know, I know, it's not a Brit case but just thinking of all the known attributes of the 45-70.

[303Guy]

Anyone heard of the 416 Strauss?


The parent cartridge is the .303 British. It is blown out to .416 caliber and loaded with a 300 grain Barns-X or 350 grain Speer bullet and S265 Pistol powder (a local South African powder). The 350 grain bullet is propelled at 2300 fps and generates 4112 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. The lighter bullet is pushed out at 2500 fps and

56697

I posted this pick earlier but didn't remember what it was.

[x101airborne]

I dreamed up a 41 caliber wildcat on the 303 brass. RanchDog helped me out with the quickload part of it. I was looking at just up to 300 grains and gas checked. Now I did cut the brass down slightly so it would work in a marlin pistol action that had the innerds tuned and lengthened. I called it the 41 HogDog. 1900 was absolute max that we could push it and stay within pressure limits. I will look around and see if I can find the printout that he did for me. I know you are looking at longer brass and for a bolt gun, but I hope this may be of some help.

[sharpsguy]

Build a 40 and don't look back. Ihave two Sharps in 40 caliber, one a 40-65 and the other a 40-70 Sharps Straight. One of the best hunting bullets I use is from a Lyman 403169 mold and it is a flat nosed bullet that weighs 248 grains. The 40-65 gives 1487 fps with 58 grains of 2f blackpowder, and it is a pure HAMMER on deer and hogs, giving complete pass through from any angle out to 200 yards. There is almost no recoil, far less than a .223. The 40-70 Sharps Straight gives 1598 fps with 69 grains of 2f blackpowder with the same bullet, and like the 40-65 it is devastating. The surprising thing is the lack of recoil and the over the top result on deer and hogs.

[blaser.306]

A fellow silouette shooter was aquainted with a gentleman ( since passed ) that 20 years ago had built a wildcat out of 303 Br. brass and was shortened and held a 41 cal slug. This was all designed around the 41 mag contender bbl as a donor, From the reports I heard this thing was absolutely brutal to shoot!!! Fun , but brutal.

[nanuk]

isn't a 40/303 just a 405Win Short?

[sharpsguy]

I don't know about the 40/303, but the 40/70 Sharps Straight was the parent case for the 405 Winchester. The 40/70 SS uses the 405 Winchester case shortened .050. I have cases for my 40/70 SS that are made from both 30/40 Krag and 405 Winchester.

[303Guy]

The dimensions of the 40-303 are very close to the 405 Win as well as the 40/70 Sharps. I'm pretty well decided on the 40-303. Case length would be 54mm (2.125"). I have a barrel-less action to test dummy rounds.

[runfiverun]

the 303 case comes out a titch short [.10 .010 or something like that] when formed to 30-40.
sounds like some reduced 405 win data would be a good nuff place to start.

[sharpsguy]

That sounds a lot like a 40-65. The 40-65 is a 45-70 case necked to 40 caliber and trimmed to 2.1. It is greatly overlooked as a hunting cartridge, for some reason.

[303Guy]

There's quite a bit of load data for the 405 Winchester. One load shows a 300gr bullet at 2500fps! A 41-303 has about 78% the capacity but the seated capacity for both is unknown, nor is the pressure of the loads shown but 2200fps is the norm from a 24" barrel. I'm hoping for 1800fps with a shorter barrel with a 300gr boolit.

[sharpsguy]

A 250 grain cast bullet from a Lyman 403169 mold will give 1701 fps driven by 43 grains of 3031 in a 40-65. A 250 grain Barnes jacketed bullet over 50 grains of 3031 goes 2100 fps. This is from chronograph data given by Clyde Williamson in his book "The Winchester Lever Legacy".

[leadman]

I have a 40-65 Pedersoli rolling block that has a .410" bore. The 400 gr Lyman Snover can be easily pushed to 1,600 fps with H4895. This is nowhere near max. I usually load 26grs of 5744 for about 1,300 fps with this boolit.
Some of the lighter 41mag pistol boolits shoot very well. The Saeco 220gr TC with a GC is very accurate at 1,800 fps but has a small meplat so not the best hunting boolit. There are enough 41 caliber molds available from about 200grs to over 400grs. Alot of the BPCR shooters use this cartridge so molds from small shops are available also.
The smaller capacity of the 303 case would make it more effecient and velocity could be increased in the brit. action over a RB.

[303Guy]

The only reasonably priced barrel blank out there is a 40 cal 1 in 16 twist .391 bore / .401 groove, 4140 steel, from Green Mountain, not 41 - close enough. I have no idea yet whether they can ship it to me or the cost. I can only contact them by phone which is a pain.

[history@mts.net]

I've played around a fair bit with .303's, as well as wildcats derived therefrom. With the .303 expanded to take 0.375" bullets, you're essentially recreating, depending on how you seat your bullets, the .375 Flanged Nitro Express 2 1/2", which was built by B.S.A.Co. for the British gun trade on the Lee Speed, Long Lee & #1 Mk. III actions. As mentioned above, the .303 expanded to ~0.400" essentially yields a .40-70 Sharps Straight. The .303 necked up to take 0.358" bullets pretty well reincarnates the .35 Winchester, which Remington, using the Lee straight pull actions offered as a factory chambering.

As I didn't want to re-invent anything, I came up with a new (although Westley Richards offered a variation of it in their double rifles) cartridge for the Lee actions. .360 Nitro Express Flanged 2 1/4". Essentially, it uses the dimensions of the 9.3x57, but using .303 brass. Using Quickload (which has been, at least for me, darned close to predicting what happens in the real world) & .303 Sporting pressures, which are 47,862 psi MAP for the .303 (~18.5 Long Tons / sq. inch or 41,500 service pressure) it predicted 2,170 fps for a 285 grain bullet out of a 24" barrel using 49 grs. of RL-17. I got 2,210 last summer in +29 C in the sun, 2,150 fps last fall. You use normal 9.3x57 dies as a bonus. They feed pretty slick from my Long Lee's magazine as well. I'm in the process of designing a specific mould for it, but am unsure if I will go heavier or stay at the 9.3 standard of 285-6 grains.

I'm also playing around with the idea of a ~.40 Lee, based on .303 brass as well, but using 330-370 grain RNFPGC bullets in a .44 barrel, albeit with a 1:10 or so twist, to wind up with a light short bush rifle for moose / bear at the 50-75 yard ranges where I hunt.

[303Guy]

How long a barrel are you intending to use? A 44 would produce better velocity than a 40 in a shorter barrel. That's my compromise - I want a shorter barrel with a smaller bore so I have to loose some performance but since we don't have bear or moose that should be fine. I would like a little bit of range capability though, like up 150m.

The most 'perfect' necking up of the Brit is 375 forming the 375 Rimmed which is what I thought was chambered in the Lee Enfield's? Sizing up to 41 retains a little body taper while the 44 (43, actually) produces a largely straight case but leaves a narrow waist just above the web. Nothing that a little fire-forming won't fix but in a way it makes the 41 the largest easy sizing up.

On the 9.3-303, one could simply build a 9.3x57 Rimmed and use 57 Rimmed brass (if one could get it) or simply go with 9.3x57. But then it wouldn't be a Brit wildcat. But for me such case capacity with a short barrel would be a bit of a waste, otherwise I would consider the Epps chambering.

[Alan]

Also check out .405 Grenadier for similar ideas. Need to find a ratty MN for a donor, though it is supposed to feed well from a Limey. I've always wanted a .35 Win. Any case that was the inspiration for th great old #3589 has got to have something going for it.

[nanuk]

I also note the Brit base is the same as the 44Mag

so turning one into a 44 (.429 diameter) would be like a 445DW super duper mag....

I have a .416 barrel from a Rigby, so I'm leaning towards a 416/303. don't know what I can fit it to.... stubbed into a Handi, or thread it for a SMLE, and use a Magazine?

I dunno...

[sthwestvictoria]

The most recent (March) Sporting Shooter Magazine from the SSAA had a 303 in 45/70 in the classified section. There was also one in 30-30 i believe (have lent it to a friend, don't have it in front of me). Quite reasonable price from memory $AUD375 or AUD475 comes to mind.
I'll rustle the magazine up.
The Gibbs rifle co were converting them to 45/70 at one stage.
Can some one riddle me why .358 molds for 357/38 calibre are perfect for the .35 calibre rifle calibres whereas .452 is used for pistols and .458 for rifles - seems such a shame the .45 rifle people miss out on all those pistol calibre molds.

[sthwestvictoria]

This is the add - interesting conversion of an Enfield to 30-30, let alone 45-70:
66038

[deadkelly]

whats the latest on this ??? 303 guy i pm'd you a few years back about a 411-303 or 375-303 . i ended buying a rossi 454 casull thinking i'd have less issues with less cost . how wrong i was . anyways the .411-303 bug bites me every 12 months or so & i chose 411 over 416 so i could use 405 bullets . & yes the 411-303 is just a jr 405 & is plenty for anything in oz & nz . mine would of been built on a no1 mk 111* & would also have been a 5 shot single stacker . but still able to use the stripper clips . i'd really love to see this cal work in a smle . i'll get involved in this build . mabye share some costs reamer , mag follower, 2x dies , barrels sights what ever . i contacted a smith down in invercargle to do the build & he tryed to sell me his 35-303 . & said that was the largest he recommended for feeding out of the smle while holding 10 shots .

[303Guy]

He could be right about the feeding and there is nothing wrong with a 35-303. We have the 375-303 but I don't know how many the mag would hold. I see the straight case as being more versatile for us casters and paper patchers.

[Cosmiceyes]

I was researching for a 40 on a 8x57 case for a Mauser action hunting gun. I found under 40 Whelen that head space problem from the lack of shoulder to creat such destroyed the caliber. 375 X 57 or in you case 375x303 would work fine.There are some really nice 9x57 loads,and ammo.I am excited to have discovered a 9.3X62 that is very popular.I am now looking for molds,and information on molds for the 9 an 9.3 boolits myself.If you go to a single shot,as your country has so many Martini Greener guns,you will find a wonderful world of 40's available.

[303Guy]

If you go to a single shot,as your country has so many Martini Greener guns,you will find a wonderful world of 40's available.Really? I haven't come across any. I'll have a look.

I missed out on a 357 magnum barrel a while back by hesitating. Currently there's a 375 H&H barrel for sale. If the cartridge wasn't so fat near the front I'd consider shortening the chamber but the shoulder defeats what I want and that's a straight walled case. Perhaps the 410/303 is the optimum case blow-out but then the recoil and and lead consumption goes up some. Perhaps not so much to be of concern since it would be a hunting rifle and any target work could be done with lighter boolits and loads. But no barrels for sale at this time. The 375 barrel is there right now and I could cut off the chamber and use only the throat portion. That would mean fitting the barrel to a chamber which I believe is do-able but would add a little extra weight. I'm not in my twenties anymore and would rather use that extra weight in a suppressor. That will take out a good amount of recoil too.

[nanuk]

[QUOTE=303Guy;2273563... Currently there's a 375 H&H barrel for sale. ..... The 375 barrel is there right now and I could cut off the chamber and use only the throat portion. That would mean fitting the barrel to a chamber which I believe is do-able but would add a little extra weight. ...[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure I understand!? You don't think there is enough meat left after chopping the chamber off to thread for a SMLE?

[303Guy]

I don't know. I was thinking in terms of effort. Anyway, it's gone! I'm going to look for a 40 bore I think. It just has that much more appeal to me, I think.

[Euan]

Hey 303 Guy,
There's a couple 416 cal blanks on trademe. Gunworks has them.
Cheers Euan.

[Euan]

Hi 303 Guy,
I have hunted for quite a few years with 375 cal boolits. Have not had any complaints what ever. The first pic is a 9.5x57 Ackley improved, loaded with acww CBE 376/300gc. The velocity of this load is 1980fps.
The 2nd pic is a few different loads in 375/303 that I have been hunting with since the later 1970s. The main load has been acww with the Lyman 377449gc, which gets 285 grains lubed & gc. loaded to a velocity of between 1850 fps to 1950 fps, depending on barrel length. I have win an 85 hiWall, a win 95 lever action,a Martini enfield & a No4 enfield chambered for this cartridge. They have all gone really well, and killed game with no worries. Animals include wild pig, goat, fallow deer, whitetail deer, red deer, chamios & tahr. plus all sorts of little stuff. Even my wee short barreled martini enfield single works a treat. I have actually thought about a 40 cal for a while, but getting barrels is a hassel now from the US. also using more lead, more molds etc. so stayed with the 375, as have a few molds. even the 220 grain gas check molds work very well on the lighter animals.
3rd pic is a few different molds that i have, 1st from left is CBE 378/220GC, 2nd is Lyman 377/449gc, 3rd is CBE 376/300gc, 4th is CBE 377/315gc, 5th is CBE 377/265pb which is paper patched, 6th is 370 dia 250grain paper patched and last is 370 dia 270 grain paper patched, both from an ajustable mold from Jim at CBE.
as you can see 303 guy I may be a little biased to the 375 cal, It just works.
Cheers Euan.

[Stephen Cohen]

I have been looking to find 40 cal barrels last couple days. Seems from what Shooters.com.au say on their site Green Mountain have discontinued .416 cal barrels, but still make 38/40 barrels with 1 in 40 twist. I have used this company in past and they charge $15 postage on barrels, not sure how that goes to New Zealand though. We have Total solution engineering (formaly MAB) making .416 barrels her in Brisbane. I don't know what the go is sending barrels to New Zealand but If I can be of any help getting one too you please let me know.

[303Guy]

Thanks guys.:drinks:

I can't seem to find anything on trademe but Green Mountain have a number of specials. Not sure that helps much with export restrictions.

Euan, what twists do your 375's have? How do the 375/303's work in the mags? That paper patch boolits looks like a bare nose bore-rider. What accuracy do you get with them?

[ammohead]

Cosmiceyes:

Swede Nelson at NOE moulds should have 9.3 moulds available in 280 gr. Mine work great in my Husqy 9.3x62.

ammohead

[357maximum]

35 or 375 or 40 X 303??????????????

If you stand in the middle of the road and I hit you with pickup, an S.U.V and a crossover which will hurt worse?

[303Guy]

Good point, 357maximum. The 35 would make a pretty powerful cartridge in a 303, without being too hungry on lead but it won't have a straight case. A 40 would be truly straight but is a little hungry and at decent velocities is going to recoil some. A 375 seems to be a compromise with a little less lead consumption and a reasonable 'reach'. I would consider reshaping the case to make it a semi-straight walled 35. The idea would be to mimic the 22 hornet case shape.

[deadkelly]

euan those 375 3oh's look so cool .
mmm i've been reading alot about the 35-303 this last week ( cause i lost this thread ) & it seems like the way to go with plenty of punch & probably a cheaper way to go . with less or no feeding issuses & still being a stripper fed 10 round mag & still capable of launching a 300gr boolit if the need be . hmm i'm gona buy quickload before i jump in & then get a chronograph . i think 338-303 is another good option for a light weight barrel & fast twist std & can still punch out the 300 grainer . but if meplat + flbs & straight wall is the name of the day .411 - 416 is as big as we could go , 375 abit more realistic but i have doubts concerning feeding & the 10 shots .

[nanuk]

35 or 375 or 40 X 303??????????????

If you stand in the middle of the road and I hit you with pickup, an S.U.V and a crossover which will hurt worse?

that all depends...

how fast are they travelling?

[303Guy]

I missed out on a 357 magnum barrel from a Rossi Puma. I hesitated too long.

[stocker]

What kind of fierce creatures do you have in NZ that makes you want to consider the 375 or 40 series of cartridges? Have those possums mutated? Granted you have some pigs but they've been killed with pretty much everything. If I were considering it I would chose the 35 or (ta-da) a 338 which I don't think has been considered as yet. With the right twist you could go to 300 grain but 250 grain will do everything you seem to need out of a 338. As well, there is a good selection of J-bullets I think as low as 180 if you were so inclined.

[badbob454]

,ditto stocker the 35 will have less drag , shoot flatter ,have greater velocity and will kill most anything on this planet .... 40 is too big to be practicle it will blow away too much meat for hunting for consumption...
my 2c worth...

[taco650]

,ditto stocker the 35 will have less drag , shoot flatter ,have greater velocity and will kill most anything on this planet .... 40 is too big to be practicle it will blow away too much meat for hunting for consumption...
my 2c worth...

I wouldn't think a 40 would ruin more meat unless you were shooting expanding slugs. However, I do agree a hard cast 35 is all you'd really need from a killing power standpoint.

[Fenring]

Can't beat cubic inches - .40.

Even if .40 fails to expand, it's never gunna shrink to .357 bro. :D

[helice]

Edd Badgley (Badgeredd) was done something similar with the 7.62X54 Rimmed Russian Ctg. by necking it up to the .358. He is a store house of information and a delight to talk with. You might give him a PM. He has 35 bored a number of rifles and has all but convinced me that all I need is a 35-30/30 trapper. I bought a 350 Remington Mag years ago for a moose hunt. The deer here in CA are the size of long legged greyhounds and the Rem Mag is a bit much. Fun to shoot tho. Like Edd, I am a 35 fan. I can't help but think that you'd be pleased with one. There are just sooooo many moulds.

[Stephen Cohen]

NZ like Australia does not have the right to own and bear arms as you guys in the States do, So I guess the logical reason as to why one would want a 375 or 40 cal, is because we can. Since NZ like Australia has deer pigs and goats, a 375 or 40 cal used with cast would be ideal. I took my first deer in December last year with 375 and never lost a bit of meat. I know a lot of you guys in States use 45/70 for deer with good results. I myself am a great believer in bigger and heavier, especially when one has to shoot through a bit of scrub. Having said that the 35 cal would also be a wonderful cal, but I believe he wanted a straight sided case like the 444 of 45/70. No offence intended, but please don't let our political leaders know we don't need larger cal rifles, we already lost the right to own anything above 38 in our pistols.

[303Guy]

338 barrels come up from time to time but are not as cheap as 7mm magnums. 243 barrels are even cheaper. I think I'll look out for a 357 barrel. It does seem to be the most versatile caliber for the Brit and I've always liked the idea of a 35. My Dad hunted African buffalo with a 35 Remington. Admittedly he only used heart shots but he said the rifle, a short pump action, was ideal for the African bush. For me the larger bore is a to do with the shorter barrel I want - that and 250 to 300 gr capability.

[303Guy]

Yup. The straight walled case has a great deal of appeal. The 375/303 is straight enough. I'm thinking of being able to seat as deep as is needed or fitting wads between powder and boolit. Not that I would have to but the option would be there. Wads or fillers protect the boolit bases and make gas checks unnecessary. A shallow shoulder would be similar or simply a long neck.

[Stephen Cohen]

303Guy, what is required to import a barrel from say Australia, over here it is a simple online form from police with no fee required. Just interested as 40 and 375 barrels are available here at reasonable cost.

[taco650]

Remind me, are you thinking of a 35-303 with minimum body taper and steep shoulder angle or just standard 303 necked up?

[303Guy]

Just a standard 303 case necked up OR a lengthened neck 303 case with otherwise standard taper. I want to be able to fit a wad under the boolit but that might not require a longer neck. 35 Remington ballistics seems to be just fine although a heavier boolit would be in order too, so maybe reducing case capacity is not a good idea. I'm thinking of 250grs at 2000fps. The 358 that goodsteel built looks pretty good. He reduced body taper and gave it a steep shoulder for head-spacing. Looks good to me. Lots of things to think about. Thing is, it must be able to do a lot more than the 303 and have the option of doing it with plain cast as well as paper patched (which would up the performance level a notch or two).

[Cosmiceyes]

Just a standard 303 case necked up OR a lengthened neck 303 case with otherwise standard taper. I want to be able to fit a wad under the boolit but that might not require a longer neck. 35 Remington ballistics seems to be just fine although a heavier boolit would be in order too, so maybe reducing case capacity is not a good idea. I'm thinking of 250grs at 2000fps. The 358 that goodsteel built looks pretty good. He reduced body taper and have it a steep shoulder for head-spacing. Looks good to me. Lots of things to think about. Thing is, it must be able to do a lot more than the 303 and have the option of doing it with plain cast as well as paper patched (which would up the performance level a notch or two).
There are 2 loads I haven't seen in here. The .338 JDJ #2,and the .375 JDJ which are both made from the 444 Marlin case necked down.J.D.Jones,a prolific wildcatter has some actual calibers right up your alley.There is the .411 JDJ;.416 JDJ;and .475 JDJ. :)'s

[taco650]

OK, one more question. Are you building this on a #1 mk3, #4 mk1 or something else?

[303Guy]

This would be on a No 1 Mk I action. As far as I know, importing from Australia is pretty simple, just get the import permits from the police, no cost. I've been looking on usedguns.com.

[taco650]

This would be on a No 1 Mk I action. As far as I know, importing from Australia is pretty simple, just get the import permits from the police, no cost. I've been looking on usedguns.com.

If you already have the rifle, why not get the barrel re-bored to .35? I looked into having that done with my 30-06 (to 35 Whelen). There's a guy in Cottage Grove, OR who does it pretty reasonably. Of course the shipping & permits from NZ would probably be a deal killer for you.

[Stephen Cohen]

I have just checked. shooter.com.au they have Green mountain .375 in stock, 1 in 12 twist 26 inches long for $170, if that's a help.

[303Guy]

Thank you, Stephen. I found it and they have both a 375 and a 357. Decisions, decisions! I need to move fast on this so help me out. The 375 was my original idea but as it goes, I have to think of all my options. The 375-303 is a souped up 375 Winchester but do I really need so much power? A light weight 250gr in 375 would be good for anything on this island and a 300gr 'heavy' would be better for longer range i.e. better BC plus better penetration at lower velocity. On the other hand a 357 would have a flatter trajectory by virtue of a better BC and higher muzzle velocity - or would it?

I want both but I can't have both. Is a 357 simply an improved 303, particularly with a shorter barrel? I'm getting 2000fps with a 194gr boolit from my 15.5 inch barrelled 303 pig gun (which is yet to bag a pig) so I'd expect a 357 to drive a 250gr boolit that fast. Would a 375 drive a 300gr boolit to that speed in a short barrel?

[Stephen Cohen]

I have a 375 Whelen, so I would opt for 375 since your using cast. Im a great believer in heavy and bigger. I have the same problem as you old 303 action begging for a re barrel, but since my 357max will be back from smith any day and I have a 375 I may well go the 40/303 in future. but all said and done you cant go wrong with 35 or 375.

[sthwestvictoria]

There are 2 loads I haven't seen in here. The .338 JDJ #2,and the .375 JDJ which are both made from the 444 Marlin case necked down.J.D.Jones,a prolific wildcatter has some actual calibers right up your alley.There is the .411 JDJ;.416 JDJ;and .475 JDJ. :)'s
Dr Jung would be proud - I read this soon after reading the Dean Grennell ABC reloading and he has a chapter in there about the JDJ wildcats.

I have the book, I can post more if 303 guy is interested. JDJ describes the .358 JDJ being formed from .303 cases, the small bore wildcats from the .255 Winchester and the larger bore from .444 cases:
75954

[sthwestvictoria]

75955
sorry the files are so big = around 1mB. I don't know why, something has gone strange when I scanned them. They started out at 40mB! I've got them down to 1mB by resizing and going to grayscale. Maybe I'll go back and rescan.

I can post the other six pages of the eight page chapter from the Dean Grennell book if desired or PM me and i could send it, only if interested. I don't want to block up the internet tubes.

[303Guy]

Thanks for that, sthwestvictoria. Very interesting indeed. If there's more from the book then I would really appreciate it. I'm sure others would be interested also so perhaps posting them here would be good.

JDJ is saying the 375 is the best performer of his 444 based cartridges in a handgun but he speaks of jacketed's. Still, velocities for the 375 are higher than for the 357 which is what one would expect in a short barrel. But he is the shoulder for head-spacing while if I went 375 I'd be using the rim. I'd expect the 375-303 to at least equal the 375 JDJ because the barrel would be longer.

JDJ speaks of using the 444 for his 375 which in a way would be easier should one want a shoulder while the 303 is easy enough to neck up. However, the shoulder area needs to be ironed to the same thickness as the neck. This is done using a special die which I'm confident I can make.

[sthwestvictoria]

759827598375984

[sthwestvictoria]

75985759867598775988

From Dean Grennells ABC's of Reloading 3rd Ed; 1985

[Afro408]

So, 303Guy, have you decided on the cal yet??
If I hadn't had a .358" barrel, I probably would have gone for a 375 something or other. I had thought about something on those lines and was planning on building a Martini in 375-2 1/2" Flanged, but I had the 35 barrel and so that is what I ended up with. I don't have any regrets, as it is a superb little rifle and suites my needs.
All the bullets, I've tried in it, have been accurate and I'm going to have a lot of fun shooting it.
Mate and I are going on a 10 day pig hunt in September. Can't wait, :)

[303Guy]

I'm kinda leaning toward 40 cal. There's a 416 Strauss out there with phenomenal performance from a P-14. Think 350gr bullet doing 2300 fps! Way more than I want launching of my shoulder, even with a suppressor and anyway, a Lee Enfield can't handle it. I like the idea of a 40 although the 358 does seem more practical. Work has dried up at the moment so I'm reluctant to spend right now but it is what I want. Trouble is, the barrel in question has a 1-in-40 twist. Seems way too slow but I don't know for sure so I'm just marking time.

[Stephen Cohen]

I too thought the 1 in 40 was slow, one cant rush these things or you get something that don't fill your wish list, two days ago I was with my gunsmith discussing a 40 cal and perhaps a 450 Marlin after he finishes my 357 max.

[MBTcustom]

Often, I talk to people for at least 9 months before they pull the trigger on a custom build. That will probably change someday, but a custom rifle is nothing to be entered into lightly.
Unfortunately, there's no way to really know if you'll like it till it's built.

[sthwestvictoria]

Just resurrecting this old thread to leave this link about creating a .444 enfield:
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/ri127partial.pdf
which sets out a way to help enfields feed from the magazine with straight wall cartridges by putting what is almost an enbloc clip inside the magazine (like the Steyr m95?). Hope it is useful to someone.

[nekshot]

Just resurrecting this old thread to leave this link about creating a .444 enfield:
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/ri127partial.pdf
which sets out a way to help enfields feed from the magazine with straight wall cartridges by putting what is almost an enbloc clip inside the magazine (like the Steyr m95?). Hope it is useful to someone.

Many thanks for sharing this info!!! I want to do this in the future and the clip always bothered me even though it almost works in the clips I have on hand. Finding a proper twist barrel with out breaking the savings account is proving to be a chore.

[longbow]

Indeed! Thanks for posting. I have been thinking of doing this for many years. I may never get to it but I saved the article just in case.

Back in the 1970's I had a Siamese Mauser converted to .45-70 and really liked it. It was an unfortunate victim of my need for money to go to college though and I never replaced it. Now that I have a growing collection of Lee Enfields I have thought .444 would be a nice conversion to make.

I have also seen Lee Enfields converted to .45-70 but I think it is a bit more involved than the .444 conversion, plus I have a large selection of .44 cal. boolit moulds so... it seems a .444 conversion would be a logical thing to do.

Longbow

[nekshot]

Indeed! Thanks for posting. I have been thinking of doing this for many years. I may never get to it but I saved the article just in case.

Back in the 1970's I had a Siamese Mauser converted to .45-70 and really liked it. It was an unfortunate victim of my need for money to go to college though and I never replaced it. Now that I have a growing collection of Lee Enfields I have thought .444 would be a nice conversion to make.

I have also seen Lee Enfields converted to .45-70 but I think it is a bit more involved than the .444 conversion, plus I have a large selection of .44 cal. boolit moulds so... it seems a .444 conversion would be a logical thing to do.

Longbow

and some fellas with fast twist like mine have really done well with long heavy boolits as on marlin forum

[kootne]

I'm guilty of just reading the 1rst and last page of this thread so maybe this has been covered. What about .405 Winchester in your Lee/Enfields? The case is a little longer (2-9/16"), but the bullet could probably be seated some what deeper or a bullet mold made to shift more of the bullet into the case to keep the OAL inside the magazine. I think the rims are pretty close to .303 and brass,dies etc. are available in the US, not sure about how you would go about getting that sort of stuff into NZ. The original pushed a 300 gr. jacketed bullet at 2300 fps if I remember correctly. I'm not sure what the pressures were but am pretty sure based on what they were chambered in that they were probably comparable to .30/40's, .303's etc.
Just a thought,
kootne

or .35 winchester if you wanted a little smaller bore. It uses the same rim and case with a bottleneck.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

The .303 British and the .35 Remington share a common head diameter. A cartridge called the .35 Leverpower was the .303 expanded to .35 with the Rim turned down to run through a 94 Winchester. A rimmed .35 Remington would make chambering reamer and loading dies inexpensive compared to custom. The neck could be made longer using a separate reamer. You could extend the shoulder by running the .35 Remington reamer a little deeper and still use standard dies with a .303 Brit shellholder. Should run pretty close to a .358 Winchester.

[longbow]

Yup, with a long heavy boolit in .444 it would be a formidable weapon.

Mind you I have also had a hankering for a .303-.375. Bigger than the .35's and still a good selection of boolits. I imaging that conversion would be similar to the .444 for feeding. It would be a wildcat but not hard to form brass from .303 British.

Lots of things I would like to try! Toy money is a bit tight though so it may be a while.

Maybe 303guy's results will sway me one way or the other. I will keep an eye out for future posts on this thread.

Longbow

[bart55]

Interesting thread ,I also have a Siamese mauser converted to 45 70 and a smle converted to 45 70 both are top performers .Mauser is more custom rifle with fancy wood and Nikon scope but the smle #4 Mk 1 is scout scoped with the original rear sight number 3 ruger bbl and sporter front blade .Great knockabout rifle have filled a few deer tags with it .

[taco650]

Interesting thread ,I also have a Siamese mauser converted to 45 70 and a smle converted to 45 70 both are top performers .Mauser is more custom rifle with fancy wood and Nikon scope but the smle #4 Mk 1 is scout scoped with the original rear sight number 3 ruger bbl and sporter front blade .Great knockabout rifle have filled a few deer tags with it .

Did you have the SMLE converted? If so did the bolt face require any mods like reworking the extractor? Also, I'm guessing the Ruger #3 barrel needed to be rethreaded to work.

I've seen rifles like that on the web and wondered if the conversion would be affordable enough...

[bart55]

Yes had it done about ten years ago or more,the barrel was rethreaded, I am not sure what mods he had to do, a good fried of mine did both rifles ,along with a martini cadet rebarreled to 218 bee. He is in his eighties now and doesn't do too much but what a great gunsmith. He also did a 250 savage on a small ring mauser for me along with about a dozen other projects .HE just suggested a project and I said OK .

[longbow]

Might have to modify the extractor on a Lee Enfield for .45-70 but the bolt face is flat so no problem there. My Siamese Mauser had to have the bolt face opened up some and I think the extractor ground a bit to allow the larger rim and case head. A friend bought mine from me so I still see it now and again. Nice gun!

The Mauser would be a stronger action if you want to hot rod but the Lee Enfield should be an easier conversion. Both certainly work though. I would be happy with either. The .45-70 offers more selection and availability of brass and boolits than .444.

Back to the original question... I still kinda like the idea of a .375-.303. That one appeals to me. Maybe one day!

Longbow

[taco650]

What caliber would the 303 be if it was straight walled?

[longbow]

I'd take a guess at .40 or maybe .44 if straight walled and no taper. .375-.303 is straight walled but is tapered.

I have an article on the .44 Rhino revolver wildcat that was based on .30-40 Krag brass with straight wall and shortened. I think that one was similar to .445 Supermag. So .44 is likely the answer.

Blown out straight it would be pretty similar to .444 Marlin but maybe a hair smaller diameter.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Did 303 guy ever make a decision of this build? I need pics to make up my mind also.

Randy