Add copper to your alloy for tougher CBs.

[popper]

deleted

[felix]

Get your copper sulfate at farm animal feed stores. Even cheaper from commercial chemical warehouses. The 50 pound bags are typical for cheaper than dirt prices when compared to the small retail quantities. ... felix

[303Guy]

Very interesting, popper. Thanks for the info. :drinks:

[madsenshooter]

I'll volunteer to test the hardness Popper. PM sent. Or rather, is about to be.

[felix]

I use copper sulfate to rid the swimming pool of algae and other dangerous stuff. I have tons of it for boolits if anybody wants some. If Corky (Sundog) wants to play with his pool and/or lead, he is hereby notified. Actually, we have enough lead based babbit with plenty of antimony, arsenic, and copper. ... felix

[badgeredd]

I'm going to give this method a try to remove zinc from some contaminated WW lead I was given.

Edd

[John in WI]

That is really some good stuff. I tried alloying copper (metal) with tin, and dilluting that into my boolit alloy. I didn't get real far on it. It's workable (I think), but I didn't really have a good way of doing it (a good heat source and crucible)

But this idea is really slick--doing it as an oxidation/reduction reaction. Thanks a lot for posting that.

[geargnasher]

More of a substitution reaction than redox, no? Neat nonetheless, thanks again Popper for sharing your "outside the box" ideas. Might be an excellent way to get rid of zinc in WW alloy which doesn't contain much tin anyway. After some experience, one should be able to approximate the copper going in by the amount of sulfate produced, then adjust as necessary with Pb/Sb/Sn to achieve final desired mix.

Gear

[xrae21]

Hmm might have to give this a try

[GL49]

If I understand this correctly, I can take zinc contaminated alloy, stir in CuSO4, and it will remove the zinc and replace it with copper, then I can stir the copper rich alloy into WW alloy to harden it? Sounds like I need to start contaminating my alloy with a known amount of zinc. Will it only replace the zinc that will dissolve into the alloy? What about the oatmeal slush on top, what happens to that? Will more copper dissolve into Pb than Zn will? Tell me more.

[John in WI]

Hi Gear--I think it formally is an oxidation/reduction. It looks to me like you have Cu 2+ --> Cu 0 and tin 0 (or Zn 0) going to tin 2+ or Zn 2+. At least that was my understanding of the original post. That you can put copper into the lead alloy, but only at the expense of tin or zinc. I think it's because copper is lower on the "activity series": http://www.grandinetti.org/Teaching/Chem121/Lectures/ActivitySeries

[buyobuyo]

When removing tin from the alloy the dross that you're pulling off isn't tin sulfate. It is tin oxide. Tin sulfate decomposes into tin oxide and sulfur dioxide at 712.4 F.

[lwknight]

You might be thinking about H2S or Hydrogen Sulfide which is deadly but only in concentrated doses.
Small amounts of h2s are naturally produced in your own body.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

I wish there was a way you guys could write this stuff so I us imbeciles could understand and follow along.
Not everyone here is an Einstein
stuff like the --> 2 + blah- might as well be in Chinese too us not chemical types- at least it is to me
I find this stuff interesting, but frustrated that I dont get it

[Lucky Joe]

I'm with you Jim.

[MUSTANG]

I wish there was a way you guys could write this stuff so I us imbeciles could understand and follow along.
Not everyone here is an Einstein
stuff like the --> 2 + blah- might as well be in Chinese too us not chemical types- at least it is to me
I find this stuff interesting, but frustrated that I dont get it


Jim:


Buy some Root Killer at Home Depot that is Copper Sulfate Based. This should be blue Crystals. Sprinkle a little on top of your melted Lead Mix (Wheel Weights, Lynotype mix, etc...), kind of like what you do with removing dross using a wax or MarvelLux as a flux.

The Blue Crystals (Copper Sulfate - Root Killer) will change color from blue to White when placed on top of the Molton Lead because the Water molecules come out of the mix (Compound) when heated. Stir the white powder compound that used to be Blue Copper Sulfate into your molten lead, bring up all the stuff on the bottom and in the mix. If there is Zinc in your mix (Usually you don't want Zinc in your lead mix); the white powder turns grey because it has combined with the Zinc at a molecular level, creating a grey colored compound/powder on top of your molten lead. Scoop the grey off and throw it away. Repeat again, and again until the white powder does not turn grey. This is the process where some have stated this would be a good way to clean up a Zink contaminated Lead mix that will not cast properly.

When the white powder turns grey, the Zinc that was in your mix has chemically combined with the Root Killer (Copper Sulfate) and it floats on top. The BONUS and why this gets interesting, is there are very small copper particles that are now left inside of your Molten Lead mix!! These small copper particles make the Boolits you cast much harder, allowing you to achieve higher velocities with Cast Boolits, or at least that's one of the objectives. You keep repeating the process, let's call it Root Killer/Copper Sulfate Fluxing; until the White Powder left from the Copper Sulfate no longer turns grey - all the Zink is now gone.

Without the Root Killer process, you can not get the copper to be in the mix. Copper wants to just float and stay by itself, kind of like a copper jacket floating on top of molten lead, unless you trick it into mixing into the lead through a chemical process. That is what the Root Killer is for and does.

Also, the down side is that if there is no Zink in your Molten Lead Mix, then the tiny pieces of copper do not go into the mix - Think of the Zink as a person paid to hold a seat for someone. Only one person can sit in the seat; and if the Zink was not there before, there is no seat for the copper to go to. So if your goal is to have small copper particles in your mix to harden the Cast Boolits, Zink has to be there, then it has to be removed because two people are not allowed to have the same seat.

Hope this narrative description helps.


Mustang

[lwknight]

So does that mean that the little sparklies on top are brass?

[GL49]

Ahhhh. Got it! Time to go play with a couple of muffins of contaminated alloy!

[madsenshooter]

Me too, but I probably got 80lb to decontaminate. Luckily I live near a sulpher creek from old coal mines, no problem with disposal of the waste. Like to see the EPA try to measure it!

[375RUGER]

Popper, Is that Lyman #2 you were starting with?

[1Shirt]

Has anybody hardness tested those w/copper? Are they water dropped and or heat treated? If so, what BH?
1Shirt!

[Lucky Joe]

Mustang, thank you.

[buyobuyo]

One important item left out of Mustang's description is that the tin also acts as a seat holder for the copper. Treating your alloy with copper sulphate will strip out both the zinc and tin, so if you want tin in your alloy, you will need to add it back in after adding the copper.

[John in WI]

Sorry about that guys. What I was talking about in my "oxidation/reduction" post was which metal takes on a charge.

In copper sulfate, copper has a +2 charge (it's a copper ION). In the melt you have lead and tin, both with no charge (they are metallic lead and tin)

I think what is happening is that since tin is more "active" than copper, when you mix copper ions with tin, copper is able to "steal" 2 electrons from tin. So copper goes from having a +2 charge, to having a 0 charge. And tin goes from having a 0 charge, to having a +2 charge.

Or, copper is reduced and tin is oxidized in the reaction. (in a way, tin is acting like a "sacrificial anode")

[Beau Cassidy]

Or, copper is reduced and tin is oxidized in the reaction. (in a way, tin is acting like a "sacrificial anode")


Give up tin to get copper? Is that my take on the matter?

[Michael J. Spangler]

Tagged for updates

[imashooter2]

So after I make this copper rich alloy and dilute it with more lead, can I add tin without the tin chemically combining with the copper?

[high standard 40]

How well does this lead/copper alloy fill out a mold?.............castability?

[imashooter2]

Thank you popper... So to be sure that I understand, adding Sn to the Pb/Cu alloy to aid fill out is ineffective because it will remove the Cu. Correct?

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

In my thread, I dissolved the copper into pure tin, then added it to the lead by weight.
I figured roughly that I had 50%pure, 50%COWW, & about 1% tin/copper alloy.
The final tally should be about .2-.3% copper introduced into the mix.

As far as casting, I found I had to get the pot HOT to not have wrinkles -over 750F
the tin comers to the top pretty quick. I've been told a pinch of citric acid will help keep the tin in

I heat treated some at 485F for one hour, and dumped in snowy water.
after 2 days, they are up to 28.3 BHN :)
I'm gonna ride out 7 days, testing everyday, then smack some with a big hammer
I never thought they would get that hard with that much pure in the mix- the Cu must do something
Now if they just are tough and not brittle - fingers crossed

Mustang thanks for the clarification, and as it happened in my thread, enough folks have responded
that the mud is clearing, I understand the technique and principle of poppers method, I dont know the
symbolism for chemical stuff is all

Thanks for starting your own thread on this popper, much easier to keep the principles isolated

[badgeredd]

As far as casting, I found I had to get the pot HOT to not have wrinkles -over 750F
the tin comers to the top pretty quick.

Jim, I have my PID on my bottom pour set at 735 degrees...it seems the copper does increase the needed temp to keep the spout on my Drip-o-matic running consistently. 720 degrees will sometimes freeze off if I tarry too much between casts.

Thanks for starting your own thread on this popper, much easier to keep the principles isolated

Yes, thank you popper. This is the exact reason I asked you to start another thread on your technique. It DOES help to separate the 2 methods and keeps things clearer.

Edd

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

When I stopped in one gun shop the other day, they are selling beer and wine making supplies now too.
Guess what they have on order? :mrgreen: citric acid :mrgreen:

[badgeredd]

http://www.bulkapothecary.com/raw-ingredients/other-ingredients-and-chemicals/citric-acid/?gclid=CNOTrbvew7QCFUeRPAodB3gA3Q

Here is the place I got citric acid in bulk, if you don'r mind ordering it.

Edd

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

thanks Edd,
we'll see what kind price this guy comes up, don't like paying for shipping
& I isnt in any hurry

[sdcitizen]

Spurred on by all the fun everyone is having with this new copper alloying method, I decided to try batching up some last night:) I took a full 10lb drip-o-matic pot of COWW alloy, and added (2) 1/4 oz zinc wheel weights to the pot, got them mixed in, sure enough my first contaminated batch of alloy. To this was added a few tablespoons at a time, approximately a cup of copper sulfate, the last two additions staying white after mashing and stirring. After heating a mold, it definitely takes a much warmer pot to cast properly, but the mold eventually started filling out properly. All the bullets were water dropped straight from the mold. After drying them, the pencil hardness test yielded approx HB, whereas normal WD COWW is usually around 2H to 4H. 24 Hours later, hardness is still about the same.
Here's the Question: Does anyone have a guess as to what the lower limit of copper in a high antimony alloy is in order to get the additional hardening/toughness desired? It would appear that approx. .3% isn't enough.

[badgeredd]

Here's the Question: Does anyone have a guess as to what the lower limit of copper in a high antimony alloy is in order to get the additional hardening/toughness desired? It would appear that approx. .3% isn't enough.

Although I haven't yet tried popper's idea for getting copper into boolit alloy, my experience with adding copper has been that 0.3% copper will indeed add the "toughness" one will find beneficial. Hardness by itself hasn't shown me to be beneficial. I have noticed an improvement in accuracy and the ability to withstand higher chamber pressures with as little as 0.1% copper. My response is based on adding copper and tin through babbit in a balanced alloy...YMMV.

Edd

[Michael J. Spangler]

great read.

i can't wait to see some test results.

so this is going to be better for high pressure loads, what about how the toughness will act for better hollow point performance?
i would think this would really help in magnum handgun loads with HPs, you can could really push the boolit, without having leading, and without the brittleness of an alloy without the Cu

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Contemplating 1 US penny/ #Pb for 0.5% Cu. Cut in half and drop in Pb with 1 1/2% Sb.

Hmm, copper plated zinc, 2 birds, one stone -brilliant!

[sdcitizen]

Thanks Popper, Badgeredd. This weekend I will probably Pour out the rest of the pot, and maybe try 9lbs pure, 1 lb magnum shot, and then add at your suggestion 1 penny's worth of zinc to react with copper sulfate and see where that alloy gets. I did re-test hardness of the bullets after 4 days aging, still showing HB on the pencil test.

[sdcitizen]

Oops, sorry that was meant to read 5 pennies worth of zinc. :)

[Baja_Traveler]

Hmmm.... Very interesting thread!
I'm going to have to try this to see if I can get better knockdown power out of my silhouette ram loads.

[sdcitizen]

I certainly could just add pure to the pot, I'm not sure of the particular alloy of shot that I have, it may have a lot of sb in it already (came from a crane counterweight). I thought to be on the safe side I could just start fresh so I can keep sb to a minimum. The old alloy can always go into 45 acp boolits anyway.

[fixerupper]

great read.

i can't wait to see some test results.

so this is going to be better for high pressure loads, what about how the toughness will act for better hollow point performance?
i would think this would really help in magnum handgun loads with HPs, you can could really push the boolit, without having leading, and without the brittleness of an alloy without the Cu


I was thinking the exact same thing with regards to 9mm and 40. Being able to push lead boolits to a higher velocity has big time appeal.

[xacex]

Tag. This is very interesting. I may give this a try before spring. Citric acid should also be found in the canning isle of you local supermarket. It is used to keep fruit from browning. Of course home-brew shops have it too if you happen to be in there picking up some grain anyway.:drinks:

[sdcitizen]

Well, last night I had a chance to alloy up a batch, 9lbs pure, to which was added 5 pennies worth of zinc (it would appear that the plating disappears somewhere, couldn't find any in the dross), and then after the copper sulfate treatment 1 lb of shot was added. No bullets have been made yet, hoping to get to that this weekend, if castability is an issue, some 50/50 solder will go in till mold fillout is sufficient. These will be cast into lee's 155 gr spitzer pills, and hopefully soon tested for velocity and durability.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

added 5 pennies worth of zinc (it would appear that the plating disappears somewhere, couldn't find any in the dross),

The copper plating went into the lead, exactly what it was supposed to do! :mrgreen:

[JD43]

Has anyone tried a pure Pb/Cu alloy using the root killer/zinc method? Maybe a pistol (or subsonic rifle) bullet you could shoot fast and would expand? Is the Sn or Sb really needed in a Pb/Cu alloy for milder loads?

[303Guy]

I bought some copper sulphate, I have high tin alloy, a new drip-o-matic and some lead drain pipe. I have no idea how much antimony is in what I have so I can't just go jumping in. Do I actually need the antimony?

[nighthunter]

Yesterday I melted 8 pounds of previously smelted and cleaned WW. When melted I fluxed and cleaned again then added 8 ounces of zinc WW. After the zinc WW melted into the mix I started adding copper sulfate. The mix immeadiately turned into a silver sludge. I stirred and stirred the mix and added more copper sulfate. I had to reheat the mix several times. Was stirring with a spoon but switched to using a piece of oak and the mix started to render up the copper sulfate into a black dirt like substance. Reheated again and thought to add some paste flux and very quickly then the melt gave up the zinc.
I don't have any idea what the composition of the zinc WW was before adding them to the alloy so I know this isn't very scientific. However I know I used 7 heaping tablespoons of copper sulfate before it remained white in the pot. The resulting alloy weighs a tiny bit under 8 pounds after cooling. Just slightly less that the WW I started with.Pieces of the alloy when hit together have a sharp clink instead of the low thud of regular WW. I think I definately got copper into the alloy but not sure how much.

Nighthunter

[303Guy]

Thanks popper. I gave the copper sulphate a go and produced nasal clearing fumes! The grey stuff did turn blackish. Did anyone mention the need to dry the copper sulphate beforehand and to crush it back to powder? Anyway, it wasn't as easy as it sounded. I put way too much of whatever those pyramid mold casting were - tin and babbit maybe - and can see no effect of copper absorption. I have no more lead so gave up for now. I'm still resetting up my stuff.
You know, I can't get lead wheel weights - the fishermen grab it all! (Bless them - why can't they just use random scrap lead?):cbpour:

What does Sb and Sn look like when cast into aluminium fishing sinker molds? (My pyramid ingots).

[cloakndagger]

Well after reading this thread twice, my organic and chem I&Ii are failing me, so, in leu of a rambling question I will make an "idiots guide" statement and let yall correct me.

Adding copper to your alloy makes it harder. You do this by adding copper sulfate. It replaces the tin and zinc in the mix at exactly the same concentration. You must get the melt hotter than normal to get this to happen. If you have pure lead you have to add zinc or tin to make it possible for the copper to alloy in.

And a couple of direce answer questions.
Can i melt pennies down for their zinc content for this (i have veeeery few zn wheel weights in my supply)
What bhn hardness DIFFERENCE are we talking?

[arcticbreeze]

I have read the threads regarding the cu enrichment and going to do a little experimenting of my own. I do have a question however, has anyone that has tried this compared the boolit size compared to straight ww. If so was there any discernible difference?

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Several have commented that when stored for several months, they tend to grow over time.
As cast diameters in my very limited trial shows them to be just slightly larger, as I found with any harder
IOW, the harder the metal the larger they drop or likely more correct- the less they shrink on cooling
My boolits dont usually get stored very long :)

[sdcitizen]

Cast with 2 different alloys, one starting with straight COWW, and the other with Pure lead. The WW alloy a few days after casting seemed that it was going to remain soft, but now, 2 weeks later has gotten harder than WDWW, and is tough to boot. The batch starting with Pure is still hardening up, by next weekend they should both be ready to shoot. I did pound a bullet from each flat with a hammer, and its amazing how thin they can be flattened without breaking an still be surprisingly bend resistant.

[303Guy]

I don't remember what got me onto the copper thing - it wasn't from this site. I was reading up on grain refining or something and knew that copper is used a grain refiner in aluminium alloys (I worked in a aluminium factory) and figured copper would toughen the alloy. I did some chatting on this site and did some 'sperimenting. The alloy I concocted was marvellous but I have no idea what went into it. There was some lino and the rest was wheel weight, drain-pipe, some rather tough and springy sheet and who knows what all else to which I added copper by dissolving some tinned sheet into the melt. This stuff changed its hardness measurably in half an hour. It also had harder and softer spots in it, possibly caused by cold shuts in the mold? Firing these things into sand hardened them but they did not blow up.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-607F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-458F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-452F.jpg

You can see that I was having quite some fun there.:)

[badgeredd]

I don't remember what got me onto the copper thing - it wasn't from this site. I was reading up on grain refining or something and knew that copper is used a grain refiner in aluminium alloys (I worked in a aluminium factory) and figured copper would toughen the alloy. I did some chatting on this site and did some 'sperimenting. The alloy I concocted was marvellous but I have no idea what went into it. There was some lino and the rest was wheel weight, drain-pipe, some rather tough and springy sheet and who knows what all else to which I added copper by dissolving some tinned sheet into the melt. This stuff changed its hardness measurably in half an hour. It also had harder and softer spots in it, possibly caused by cold shuts in the mold? Firing these things into sand hardened them but they did not blow up.


You can see that I was having quite some fun there.:)

The soft spots could well have been concentrations of un-mixed copper. From what I have been able to gleen from past literature, one of the primary problems with the so called Lyman #1 alloy with 3 % Cu was keeping the copper suspended in the mix. This is why, I have mentioned in some posts, that I have a suspicion that there is a level of diminishing returns when Cu is added. It seems to me there were some experiments some time back by another forum member (I'm thinking it may have been Felix) that mentioned copper in the concentration of as little as 1% had a tendancy to separate out of a mix if one didn't stir religiously. The alloys I have messed with had a guesstimated content of no more than 0.3% copper. I didn't find any soft spots but bear in mind, I'm adding copper to a babbit and then adding the babbit to the mix.

Edd

[nanuk]

has anyone experimented with Cu into PURE?

like taking pure, adding zinc (measurable) then CuSO? to the melt to replace Zn with Cu?

I wonder if this would toughen up Pb better than Sn!

[madsenshooter]

I'm just guessing, but I know Cu doesn't like to alloy with Pb. My guess is you're have a mixture with pockets of the Cu floating around in it. Got so many of these threads going now, I can't find Popper's chart that would show the solubility of Cu in Pb.

[badgeredd]

I'm just guessing, but I know Cu doesn't like to alloy with Pb. My guess is you're have a mixture with pockets of the Cu floating around in it. Got so many of these threads going now, I can't find Popper's chart that would show the solubility of Cu in Pb.

Here ya go...post #22...http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172475-High-Copper-Alloys-Lets-discuss-this-further/page2

Edd

[madsenshooter]

Thanks Edd, it appears to me that the strength here comes from Cu alloying, as in actually bonding with, the other elements, Don't think I'll try any Pb/Cu only mixes. For all I know though, maybe Cu does bond with the Pb to a limited extent. The chemistry part of my brain isn't working good today, on to something less confusing.

[I'll Make Mine]

Thanks Edd, it appears to me that the strength here comes from Cu alloying, as in actually bonding with, the other elements, Don't think I'll try any Pb/Cu only mixes. For all I know though, maybe Cu does bond with the Pb to a limited extent. The chemistry part of my brain isn't working good today, on to something less confusing.

Don't confuse alloying with reacting -- intermetallic compounds (where metals chemically bond with one another) are relative rarities, while alloys are very common. An alloy is nothing more or less than a solid solution of two or more metals; for instance, common plumbing solder (from before lead was banned for this purpose) was a solution of anywhere from 30 to 70 percent tin, in lead. It could be mixed below the melting point of lead, because the molten tin would dissolve the lead (like water dissolving sugar) -- but when the resulting solution is frozen, the two metals remain dissolved.

Since different substances are more or less soluble in others (just as table salt is much more soluble in water than lead chloride, or sugar is soluble in water but not in gasoline), different alloys will and won't work. One we discuss a lot here is zinc in lead; lead will only dissolve about 2% zinc by weight, and zinc about 1.8% lead, so mixing lead and zinc to make bullets isn't a very good plan (the two solutions aren't miscible; they'll separate like oil from water).

Just as with solubility in water vs. hydrocarbons, there are different solubility families in metals; lead, tin, antimony, bismuth, and arsenic (possibly one or two other close chemical relatives) are one family, miscible in virtually any proportion; copper, zinc, aluminum, and tin are another (I include tin in the second family as well as the first because tin and copper alloy well; I don't know if tin alloys with zinc or aluminum), and the two families don't intermix well. If there's tin in your lead, though, you might be able to get the tin to take up some copper, and of course lead will take up small traces of less soluble metals (like zinc, and probably copper).

[swheeler]

HELP! Popper I need some guidence. I took 4#6oz of pure lead(smelted roof flashing in ingots from years past-dead soft)4#8oz of coww(ingots from years past) let it melt for 1 hour at 10 setting in Lee 20 pound pot. I couldn't find any zinc ww, that's why the 1 hour, was looking. So I weighed a penny and got 39 grs, figured 23 would gives me 2.05 oz and if added to the 50/50 would give me approx 1.5% after exchanging the zinc for copper by your method. I cut 22 of the pennies in half with tin snips, left one whole. I fluxed the melt twice and checked the temp, pegged @750*F(only goes to 750) dumped the pennies on top and they instantly disappear, maybe 10 seconds. The melt started to turn golden/brown, I stirred and nticed a few tiny clumps, melt turned a dark blue. I put 5 tablespoons of copper sulphate on top of the melt(about 1/4 inch thick), it hissed and crackled a bit, edges started to turn white. I gave it a couple minutes and had to leave because of the smell(smelled like a battery that had been on the charger too long) 4-5 minutes later the CS had turned white so I began to stir, the melt turned to oatmeal, so I checked the temp, 725*F. I stirred and stirred, finally gave up and shut the pot down for today. I have a melt with a 3/4" layer of oatmeal on top, tell me what to do next.

[swheeler]

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg234/kmw3291/firstthis.jpg

Just after adding 23 pennies to 9 pounds of 50/50

[swheeler]

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg234/kmw3291/750deg23pennys.jpg

A minute later

[swheeler]

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg234/kmw3291/23cents.jpg

After adding 5 tb spoons of CS, letting it turn white and stir in

[arcticbreeze]

I am no expert at this but that sounds like allot of zinc to me. Also the melting point of zinc is about 787f so I think your pot was not hot enough. I added about 2% than stirred and fluxed until I felt that all that the alloy would accept was dissolved. I also used a pot that was much shallower and wider. I only added a small amount of CS at a time and after the H2O was gone (turned white) used my spoon to grind the granules against the side of the pot (more surface are on the granules to react) until it was fine powder. Then I stirred it in until in turned to a dark grey almost clay like texture. I did this over and over until the reaction stopped and the CS stayed white. I think you added way too much at one time and did not follow through with the entire process popper described. If I were you I would remelt into a larger pot then flux and scoop off the extra oatmeal. That should leave the soluble zinc in the pot. Then you can follow the procedure popper described and you should be ok.

Again I am new to this but that is my opinion. Also keep in mind this is still experimental.

Marc

[nighthunter]

swheeler .... heat it up again and flux it till you have a fine black dust on top of the melt. Remove the dust and flux again till you have just a nice shiney alloy.

Nighthunter

[swheeler]

swheeler .... heat it up again and flux it till you have a fine black dust on top of the melt. Remove the dust and flux again till you have just a nice shiney alloy.

Nighthunter

flux it with copper sulphate?

[onceabull]

I'm seeing on the Arab's site where SmokinJ says you all are wasting time and materials,,... Best go blend up some powders and get with the program... Onceabull

[swheeler]

I'm seeing on the Arab's site where SmokinJ says you all are wasting time and materials,,... Best go blend up some powders and get with the program... Onceabull

Sounds like smokin' somethin'! :)

[swheeler]

Popper all I can figure is my pot is going to heck. My thermometer only goes to 750* and the 50/50 melt instantly pegged it out. The ingots I use are poured by me and clean, the melt was fluxed twice(yeilding maybe 1/8 teaspoon of dark grey/black dross-as it usually does) and beautiful shiny liquid, when I added the pennies they disappeared asap, the melt turned brown-then bright blue. I did not flux the melt once the zinc(pennies) were added, IS THIS MY MISTAKE? I stirred it and added a 1/4 inch cover of CS(about 5 tablespoons), let it stand and it did turn snow white after several minutes. I then stirred the CS into the melt, and stirred and stirred, got about 3/4 inch of cottage cheese on top of the melt. Unless my math is wrong I should have added approx. 1.4% zinc to the melt, plus the copper plating on the pennies. The melt never took on the oatmeal appearance until I added the copper sulphate. All I can figure is my thermostat went TU during the melt?

[runfiverun]

i sent him [smokin-j] an outline to get some copper and zink into his alloy to move things along even further some time ago.
might could see something more there.

[badgeredd]

I'm seeing on the Arab's site where SmokinJ says you all are wasting time and materials,,... Best go blend up some powders and get with the program... Onceabull

That's some funny stuff there...blending powders. Too bad he got himself banned here cause I'd love to hear his comments here...before I diplomatically told him to pound sand.

Fortunately all who would like to try something that might improve their alloy are not swayed by his comments.

Edd

[badgeredd]

swheeler,

I had a thought about the process that may or may not be correct. Hopefully popper will clarify it some more for us. I am wondering if you didn't get the oatmeal look from the zinc because you didn't actually go over the satuation point of zinc in lead. Also, I kinda got the impression that popper adds a bit at a time of the copper sulfate to his melt rather than a large quantity all at once. I could be totally wrong but it is a thought I had.

BABore was here today and left some alloy for me to try out as well as some copper sulfate to use on my big time zinc contaminated alloy. I'll be taking the plunge this coming week to see how it works out if is doesn't get TOO cold in the garage this coming week. I still don't know how one knows all of the zink is removed so I figure I gotta take the plunge.

Edd

[Plinkster]

I'll have to give this a go, seems like it'd make great hunting hollow points.

[swheeler]

swheeler,

I had a thought about the process that may or may not be correct. Hopefully popper will clarify it some more for us. I am wondering if you didn't get the oatmeal look from the zinc because you didn't actually go over the satuation point of zinc in lead. Also, I kinda got the impression that popper adds a bit at a time of the copper sulfate to his melt rather than a large quantity all at once. I could be totally wrong but it is a thought I had.

BABore was here today and left some alloy for me to try out as well as some copper sulfate to use on my big time zinc contaminated alloy. I'll be taking the plunge this coming week to see how it works out if is doesn't get TOO cold in the garage this coming week. I still don't know how one knows all of the zink is removed so I figure I gotta take the plunge.

Edd

Edd I'm not done yet and will put some more time into it tomorrow, hopefully. I think you might be correct in that I added too much CS at one time, but don't really know. I'm thinking the melt turning blue is from the copper off the pennies? Maybe that and the CS gave me more copper than can be carried in the 50/50. I got fumes off the melt that does give me concer though, blood in my runny nose from it? I'm using ZEP root killer, 99% copper sulphate pentahydrate. Just might be time to get out the turkey fryer, who knows.

[madsenshooter]

I'm seeing on the Arab's site where SmokinJ says you all are wasting time and materials,,... Best go blend up some powders and get with the program... Onceabull

Someone probably said the same thing when people started to use wheelweights vs the traditional boolit alloys. What, fire that grainy metal down my nice bore? No way! I have tried some of his 6mm bullets. They weren't bad out of my rifle, accuracy-wise, but not as good as the Cu containing Eagan bullets at about the same velocity. He tried some of mine in his rifle too, and didn't get results as good as his own. I only tried one load, still have some of his bullets, well aged now, they are soft enough to scratch with my fingernail.

And, some are just argumentative, if you aren't things the way they are, you can't be doing anything right.

[swheeler]

[QUOTE=madsenshooter;2015706]Someone probably said the same thing when people started to use wheelweights vs the traditional boolit alloys. What, fire that grainy metal down my nice bore? No way! I have tried some of his 6mm bullets. They weren't bad out of my rifle, accuracy-wise, but not as good as the Cu containing Eagan bullets at about the same velocity. He tried some of mine in his rifle too, and didn't get results as good as his own. I only tried one load, still have some of his bullets, well aged now, they are soft enough to scratch with my fingernail.

Probably just shows there's more than one way to skin a cat?(I'm being nice here) Now this is just personal but I would question any velocity/accuracy claims made by Joe, been there- done that, it is what it is, period. Life goes on:) http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg234/kmw3291/ChilloutJoe.jpg

[badgeredd]

NOW that right there is too darn funny !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!

Edd

[scrockett]

Well a trip to the feed store is on for Monday, have a large batch of zinc contaminated ww and have to try this to clean it up rather than throwing it into fishing weights.

[runfiverun]

that is funny.....
have y'all read about the sulpher being used to clean zinc out of an alloy enough to cast with it?
there might be a cross use as the sulpher will burn as it pulls the zink out of the alloy,
you could use the oxygen free zone there to help get stuff go into the melt easier.

[swheeler]

That's the thing Lamar, the copper sulphate is supposaed to exchange copper for zinc, 1:1, no sulpher needed. I am trying to end up with a copper enriched alloy to test, test every way I know, including BHn and what is to be gained in high velocity performance. I will make no claims until I have tried it. I think maybe Edd has the answer and if time is permitting I will add more zinc tomorrow then try the copper sulphate a little at a time until I end up with an alloy I can cast with. What I don't understand is at this time noone can tell me why my melt turned BRIGHT BLUE AFTER adding the 23 pennies, is it the copper in the alloy? Can you tell me?

[madsenshooter]

Probably so. I get a blue cast on mine when it cools with only .25% Cu. I can sometimes see it on the surface of the boolits too, but for some unknown reason, not all the time. I haven't tried Popper's method, might be a good idea to follow his advice.

[runfiverun]

copper oxide casts a green blue color in the rocks it comes from,and sulpher burns with a green blue flame....
that blue you had looks like an overcooked smelt job on the old stick-on ww's where the lead oxided,and then throw in the copper which turns more blue.
you definatly have a heat problem too, there isn't enough to get the zink into solution to make the reaction happen,,,, such as it is.

shane you got my p.m. i hope.

[swheeler]

Probably so. I get a blue cast on mine when it cools with only .25% Cu. I can sometimes see it on the surface of the boolits too, but for some unknown reason, not all the time. I haven't tried Popper's method, might be a good idea to follow his advice.

OK Bob that helps, I was going back to chemistry 101 and burning copper, blue. I will mess with this pot of alloy more tomorrow, hoping the guy that put 8 pennies in coww would ring in and say if the pot turned blue after adding the pennies. I guess it is possible that my pot gave up the ghost exactly at the time I added the pennies to the melt, but I highly doubt it.

[swheeler]

copper oxide casts a green blue color in the rocks it comes from,and sulpher burns with a green blue flame....
that blue you had looks like an overcooked smelt job on the old stick-on ww's where the lead oxided,and then throw in the copper which turns more blue.
you definatly have a heat problem too, there isn't enough to get the zink into solution to make the reaction happen,,,, such as it is.

shane you got my p.m. i hope.

Lamar; I haven't used any old STICK ON ww in this alloy, coww smelted and fluxed years ago, roof lead smelted and fluxed years ago. Now for the heat needed, educate me, I added the pennies and they dissolved within 10 seconds? instantaniously. I then stirred this melt, NO OATMEAL, it turned golden brown within seconds and turned bright blue a few seconds later. I stirred this melt and it was a smooth fully liqidous melt except for a couple clumps in it, they looked like shells of copper from the pennies. I never got the oatmeal effect until I added the copper sulphate. Now I do agree that maybe my pot isn't getting hot enough(but the zinc pennies melted instantaniously?) Can you answer me that these cu alloys are blue in smelting?

[nighthunter]

flux it with copper sulphate? I think you would be much better off to flux with something like beeswax or soldering flux. I believe the blueish color is copper that is just sitting there. Flux will help combine the lead and copper and seperate the zinc sulfate.
I tried adding copper sulfate to my alloy while useing a wood pellet stove as a heat source. I got a sludge like melt at one point and had to put the pot back in the stove to reheat till it again became liquid. Then I added the flux and I had no further sludging. I think you have a similar problem while useing your heat source.

Nighthunter

[swheeler]

R5R - if you use sulfur, the Pb will not take much Cu - both do the same thing and S has precedence over CU. When I used the CS on WW, I got a small chunks of hard stuff which I mixed and smashed until it dissipated. I believe it is SbCu2 and that is OK. I don't know what the melt temp of that is, but it did go away. I wasn't using the PID when I did the WWs, I'm sure the temp was > 750F. I haven't done the penny thing yet, busy as a 1 armed paper hanger, wife took me to the ER last nite thinking maybe I had a blood clot in my leg. Checked out OK. Guess I just pulled something somehow. The Cu goes into free Cu (blue), SbCu2 and Cu into the lead crystal lattice, which gives the toughening.

Looks like I just need more heat, any idea the percentages of Cu to Zinc in a penny? I guess it really doesn't matter as the CS will replace whatever zinc is in the melt with copper, the plating off the pennies is free copper.

[runfiverun]

it's an issue of too much and not enough at the same time.
then the numbers need to be more carefully controlled.
trying for a saturation but without control of the amounts used guarantees inconsistencies from batch to batch.
this is gonna affect your shooting time frame down the road too,it's unpredictable as it is now.
the process "working" and being "predictable and controllable" are not the same.
what happens in the alloy is fine.
i'd rather use a known amount of zink and heat to get the process started,then use the saturation/replcement to predict the exchange.

[swheeler]

That's the problem I couldn't find any zinc ww, used to have a half coffee can full, threw them out as thought they were bad:) I did weigh the pennies but part of that weight is copper, guess I could deplate one and weigh it.

[Pat I.]

Will one of you guys PLEASE go over to AR and say something to SmokinJ about this subject?? He's been carrying on a conversation with himself for a while now and people are starting to talk. I'd do it myself but sadly I'm banished.

[runfiverun]

i mentioned most all this to joe once.

[badgeredd]

Will one of you guys PLEASE go over to AR and say something to SmokinJ about this subject?? He's been carrying on a conversation with himself for a while now and people are starting to talk. I'd do it myself but sadly I'm banished.

Pat,

IMHO, I doubt that anything about this would be of great interest to JA. I've seen how he and a couple others have reacted to an idea they didn't have or hadn't used in the past their selves. He and they are who they are. I think that has already proved to be true within the last few weeks.

Edd

[badgeredd]

Pat,

Can you point me to the proper place on the AR forum so I can see his comments? It might encourage me to join for a bit.

Edd

[Pat I.]

It's on the second page of this thread towards the bottom.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1811043/m/6131001181/p/1

You have to get past the shooting bullets in outer space part (as far out as a couple of these guys are they might actually be shooting bullets in outer space), the usual bold print replys berating a guy for trying something and never being able to get it right because of the wrong methodology part, and the ever present 2 inch groups at 350 yds with a cast bullet going faster than the speed of light part. After that the copper into lead conversation is there.

[badgeredd]

Thanks Pat.

Edd

I went, I found, I read. Entertaining in a twisted sort of a way. I see I am included in the conversation...isn't that precious.

[swheeler]

I go over there every now and then when I need a good laugh.

[onceabull]

No need for concern,guys. I see in one of todays posts @ the Arab's site where SmokinJ(aka Starmetal, MaxPayne,joe,old joe, et al ,ad naus.)has taken to giving advice to his distracters ( apparently something betwixt a vampire and a zombie)Sorta like unto the house comedian in an oldtime burly house...

[303Guy]

I did use lead pipe but the pot was clean before I started adding copper sulphate. The acrid fumes came from the copper sulphate. Drain pipe fumes are just horrible smelling - done that a lot. Did I decompose the copper sulphate without getting the copper absorbed into the tin rich melt? The last lot I added turned blackish with being stirred in.

Now I know copper works - done it already, so there's no question in my mind. Just not very efficiently or scientifically. I'm going to try dissolving copper directly into babbit or lino and see what happens. I had a few sticks of plumbers solder lying around for many years so I decided to use them for the tin. Now I want to tin some copper and guess what? Those sticks are plenty expensive! Like $18 for a stick half the thickness! Murphy's second law. If you store things for many years, you will need them two weeks after throwing them out! Or in this case using them for a lesser purpose. So, plan B is to attempt to tin copper with babbit. I'll let y'all know how it works.

[badgeredd]

I did use lead pipe but the pot was clean before I started adding copper sulphate. The acrid fumes came from the copper sulphate. Drain pipe fumes are just horrible smelling - done that a lot. Did I decompose the copper sulphate without getting the copper absorbed into the tin rich melt? The last lot I added turned blackish with being stirred in.

Now I know copper works - done it already, so there's no question in my mind. Just not very efficiently or scientifically. I'm going to try dissolving copper directly into babbit or lino and see what happens. I had a few sticks of plumbers solder lying around for many years so I decided to use them for the tin. Now I want to tin some copper and guess what? Those sticks are plenty expensive! Like $18 for a stick half the thickness! Murphy's second law. If you store things for many years, you will need them two weeks after throwing them out! Or in this case using them for a lesser purpose. So, plan B is to attempt to tin copper with babbit. I'll let y'all know how it works.

If you go with adding copper to the babbit (tin babbit) it appears from my research that there is an upper limit somewhere around 7-8% copper concentration in a tin babbit. I don't know it to be a fact, but I suspect one can reach the saturation point somewhere in the 7 1/2% copper vicinity. Check out Rotometals Super Tough tin based babbit. So far I haven't found a higher concentration so I am thinking that 7-8% concentration is about as high as one can go and still keep the copper in solution. Also I don't know but since we will probably have trouble getting the babbit really hot, I suspect tin ozidation will also be a bit of a problem in getting our final mix concentratin very high. Just a few thoughts on adding copper....

Edd

[felix]

Tin and Bismuth are at least 50-50 commensurate for sure. I don't know about how much Tin is needed to completely accommodate Copper, or vice-versa ... felix

Beg, borrow, steal spent pellets from match ranges. These European pellets come in three weights, something like 16, 18, 21 grain forms in the 22 caliber. They cost between 3 and 5 cents each brand new. They have a good percentage of bismuth. Save these pellets for augmenting your proven BEST shooting small caliber boolits. You can tell by weighing finished boolits. Bismuth boolits are heavier (2-3 percent). Do this in lieu of copper for getting a certain percentage of increased accuracy over a standard mix. ... felix

[swheeler]

swheeler - try skimming a lot of the 'stuff' off and just process a smaller amount into your melt. Pennys are 24 gram zinc with a .00015 Cu plating, after '72 I think. Any Cu not in the Pb or Sb or Sn will be free Cu which has a high melt temp. You don't want the free Cu in the melt. Hopefully I'll get some casting done next week after everything settles down here.

Thanks Popper. I know you mean 24 grains of zinc, so that would make the copper 15 grains per penny. So I added over 3/4 ounce of copper and 1 1/4 ounce of zinc. I believe I can remove the free cu by skimming the blue off the top(sound right to you), after I get the melt I have now up to a temp hot enough to be full liquid state. Then if the 1.26 oz of zinc is replaced with copper by your method I will have 9 pounds of an alloy with .875% copper.

[303Guy]

Thanks. I'll attempt to dissolve it directly into the tin alloy I have in the pot already. My last trials only got about 1% copper in (or less). I want a balance between toughness and hardness for slump resistance and malleability i.e. shatter resistance with expandability.

At what point does copper and tin become a bronze as opposed to a solution? Can bronze be dissolved into lead or lead/tin?

And while talking zinc-lead, why not dissolve brass into the lead/tin if possible?

[swheeler]

Someone used brss left over from trimming cases, in this thread maybe.

[badgeredd]

I doubt we can even get close to making bronze, considering the primary metal in bronze is copper. Here's a link about bronze...Ifound several others.

http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-bronze.htm

Edd

[madsenshooter]

I've researched the bronze thing in the past. There's even a leaded bronze, but melt temps are still higher than we're going to get. I pulled my AR off gunbroker, I don't think a ban is going to float. Not without a war.

[runfiverun]

pepto is bismuth.
that's the bismo part of the name.
you might still can buy bismuth shot from some sources.
it usually has 5% tin added to it to keep the brittleness somewhat under control.

[JackQuest]

So, to summarize: no one has yet worked from pure Pb forward (and published results in this thread), everyone has been extracting Tin out of WW or Lyman variant alloys along with Zinc.

Procedure would be to deliberately contaminate pure Pb with known percentage of Zinc then extract Zinc with Copper Sulfate to establish Cu percentage.

About 1% copper appears to be a good place to start in pure Pb, with perhaps 2-4% Tin added for flow. Expect much greater hardness than Tin alone. Quench harden then let sit at room temp or even in the freezer to extend hardness. Expect bullet dimensional expansion over time, meaning don't size and lube right away? (I thought sizing inherently softened Pb alloys, maybe brain is old)

Once this alloy is established (or maybe 2% Cu), consider 50/50 with clean WW alloy to add the Arsenic necessary to quench harden even further. Antimony from WW just a plus for hardness at this point.

Have I got that right, 'cause I'm sitting on a lump of pure Pb in ingots and a lump of clean WW in ingots.

[JackQuest]

Popper:
Many thanks for the clarification! Since Tin is much easier to get (and work with) in high concentrations than antimony it makes sense to alloy for a final mix with whatever antimony the WW provide, approx. 1% Cu and then boost the Tin for mould fill out and flow.

I hand separated all the zinc WW from my last batch of wheel shop metal and melted it separately and poured off in ingots. Not much metal total, but for a 1% straight trade of zinc to copper, it's a place to start.

[swheeler]

I took the nine pounds of 50/50 that I added 552 grains of zn +345 grains of copper to(in the form of pennies) and put it on the turkey fryer today. After 45 minutes I had a melt that was bright blue on top with about a half inch of silver oatmeal. I started fluxing, lots of fluxing with candles, lots of candles and stirring with a piece of split lodgepole firewood! I ended up with about four pounds of shiney silver alloy. I left this on the turkey fryer and sprinkled a heaping tablespoon of copper sulphate on top, it turned white and I smashed it against the side of the pot, stirred and it turned dark grey/black. I skimmed this off and repeated 2 more times until what I had left was white after mashing and stirring. I skimmed off the white powder and took the pan in and poured the alloy into my casting pot set on 10/high. Took 314299 mold and put handles on, set on stove burner on high, went out and fluxed alloy in the pot, dropped ladle in and went back to get the mould. I cast 6 bullets air cooled and 6 bullets water dropped. The alloy cast pretty much as normal, a quick glance showed bullets well filled out and lightly frosted, sprue took approx 8 seconds to freeze, I did notice that the sprue puddle did not draw in as is normal with the 50/50. These bullets will be weighed and measured and compared to 50/50 alloy bullets. I will add some picturs later, the amount of dross was amazing!

[badgeredd]

Pat,

IMHO, I doubt that anything about this would be of great interest to JA. I've seen how he and a couple others have reacted to an idea they didn't have or hadn't used in the past their selves. He and they are who they are. I think that has already proved to be true within the last few weeks.

Edd

I stand corrected. Joe IS interested! And I quote:

"I'm going to try the copper alloy again. I wasn't satisfied with the previous attempts and have gotten some answers on a better way to blend up the alloys. The amount of copper in the mix is one of the issues. I've now been told that there should be a little amount of copper, more not being better in this case. I'll give that a try. They sure need to age pretty long from what I was told. I'll cast the first batch up for the 5.56 NATO since that 7 twist AR will be a real good test for the accuracy part of it, then go from there. I need to assemble my alloys and I'll start."

Interesting the change of heart and that there is information now available that sounds so very familiar to me.

Edd

[swheeler]

Dross, you want dross, here's about 5 pounds of it. Notice the white CS after it cleaned up.http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg234/kmw3291/dross.jpg

[swheeler]

It took a while but hopefully worth it!http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg234/kmw3291/melt.jpg

[fixerupper]

swheeler..... Quick question. How many pennies per pound did you use. When the weather warms up I plan to do a trial sample as well... except rather than 50-50 with wheel weights, Im going to use 50-50 iso-lead. I might even try this with pure pb.

I was thinking of one penny per pound, using pennies minted after 1982. Pennies minted after 1982 are all 97.5 zinc with 2.5 copper plating. They also weigh 2.5 grams each. Pennies minted before 1982 are much higher in copper.

And much off thread.... but, if you find a 1943 copper penny..... its worth thousands of dollars. DONT MELT IT.... ;-)

[swheeler]

2.55 pennies per pound of 50/50, that should give an alloy with .8% cu with a 1;1 exchange of zn to cu

[swheeler]

I stand corrected. Joe IS interested! And I quote:

"I'm going to try the copper alloy again. I wasn't satisfied with the previous attempts and have gotten some answers on a better way to blend up the alloys. The amount of copper in the mix is one of the issues. I've now been told that there should be a little amount of copper, more not being better in this case. I'll give that a try. They sure need to age pretty long from what I was told. I'll cast the first batch up for the 5.56 NATO since that 7 twist AR will be a real good test for the accuracy part of it, then go from there. I need to assemble my alloys and I'll start."

Interesting the change of heart and that there is information now available that sounds so very familiar to me.

Edd

Edd he's always over here mining data:) can't stay away!

[Manbeast]

What a cool idea! I work in a metallurgical lab and have access to an xrf analyzer. If interested, I could scan different alloys to check concentrations in alloys.

[swheeler]

What a cool idea! I work in a metallurgical lab and have access to an xrf analyzer. If interested, I could scan different alloys to check concentrations in alloys.


How large of a sample do you need and what would it cost?

[badgeredd]

How large of a sample do you need and what would it cost?

I've thought that once I am relatively happy with an alloy and know I can repeat the process EXACTLY I would like to get some samples analyzed to know exactly what I have. To me that is a key point...to have a repeatable alloy. Part of my personal problem with the copper sulfate method is the great amounts ot dross folks are getting. It seems more dross is coming out than the weight of the zinc going in. I am assuming some of the dross is tin too. So Again my question is how does one know what he is getting?

Edd

[swheeler]

That was the sample I was wondering about getting tested. Now the copper sulphate did end up coming out white after being smashed and stirred, but the amount of dross I got equaled the amount of alloy left? I used a box of six of the small candles, the ones that are 1.25 dia and 1.25 hight, a box of birthday candle,24, a handfull of sawdust and a pine stick to stir. This whole process took about 2 hrs from start to finish, and I started with alloy that cleans up with one fluxing of a pea size piece of wax. I think the penny process isn't the way to go!

[swheeler]

swheeler - check post #57, worked for him.

Popper I did that's where I got the penny idea from. He used pure and I used 50ww-50pb and I used alot more pennies, something turned out different, I wanted a cu rich alloy to use as a sweetener. I just posted the results I got, including the melt turning blue just seconds after adding the pennies, heck I don't know just wanted to try. I did get an amazing amout of dross out of that 9 lbs of alloy, and it took lots of heat to do it and flux.

[Manbeast]

swheeler, i would need a sample the size of a dime or any cast bullet. The cost would be the postage cost of getting it here and back, if you wanted it back. If i can get my equipment out of storage soon, I'm gonna give it a go. Problem is it might be a couple weeks or months.

[swheeler]

swheeler, i would need a sample the size of a dime or any cast bullet. The cost would be the postage cost of getting it here and back, if you wanted it back. If i can get my equipment out of storage soon, I'm gonna give it a go. Problem is it might be a couple weeks or months.

PM sent

[runfiverun]

scott:
let me know will ya.

[swheeler]

scott:
let me know will ya.

I will let everyone know, post it here.

[swheeler]

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg234/kmw3291/alloysamples.jpg Manbeast I will send little ingots like this stamped for ID. Thanks

[swheeler]

Manbeast; check your PM's Scoot

[felix]

Great! I'm curious to see what can be done with it. ... felix

[I'll Make Mine]

Felix - found a science experiment that used pepto, aluminum foil and muriatic acid to get bismuth metal.

That's an expensive way to get bismuth even compared to breaking down bismuth shotshell loads. Doesn't Rotometals sell the stuff? Yep, $22/lb, near enough, and has the free shipping "green truck".

[nighthunter]

My dross comes out of the pot as a dark grey to black fine powder. Maybe you need to raise the temperature and work the dross against the side of the pot more. I've found that when I use beeswax as a flux the dark dross turns a sort of chocolate color. I've also found that if I add a lot of the copper to 5 lbs of COWW I can then add about 15 lbs of range salvage lead and still have a good alloy that I have been useing to cast HP pistol bullets. I'm hopeing for good expansion with a greater shear factor for higher velocity. The alloy seems quite hard but still quite malleble. This whole subject of adding copper to the alloy is so very interesting. Someone had expressed the opinion that they felt adding copper would make the bullet act like a FMJ. I have to disagree believing we are makeing the alloy so it will still expand and hold together. I do not understand the thinking that adding copper to an alloy of 50% COWW and 50% PB will turn the alloy into something like linotype. I think antimony is what makes linotype so hard and brittle.

Nighthunter

[felix]

Nighthunter, you are correct. ... felix

[nighthunter]

This isn't going to sound real scientific as I am not a scientist. To 5 lbs of COWW I add 2 zinc pennies. When the pennies are melted I add 4 tablespoons copper sulfate. I work the CS against the side of the pot until I have a fine dark colored POWDER on top of the alloy. I then add 15 lbs of range salvage lead and when melted and up to casting temp I flux with beeswax. This seems fairly repeatable to me. I agree with others on here that repeatability of the alloy is very important. Copper added to the alloy may have been tried and retried in years past but those casters did not have the benefit of this forum to exchange information and ideas of successes they had achieved. I realise we are at just the beginning of our trials of adding copper but I think we will make it work if we keep up the exchange. Heck ..... we might even be famous someday and be remembered as "those old guys" that did it.

Nighthunter

[GabbyM]

Question:

To reduce dross.

What about placing a stove top onto our melt pots to exclude O2. I.E. funnel top with vent pipe. Drop pine chip flux into the chimney.

I use a 5 quart cast iron pot on a propane burner.

Also I've sold off my dross at listed market price for lead dross. Had a five gallon bucket full. At one time that is. Since I used to commercial cast. Unless you have dross that you know is full of tin at $15 a lb. . As Poopers dross is. Then smelting is a huge chore not to mention dangerous . You can not smelt in a pot. You need to first build a furnace then fire it with fuel. Then if you do not know what you are doing you will die. Either quickly or even worst slowly from metal poisoning or cancer. Not saying it can't be done safely . As it is done every day around this world. But you need to know what you are doing.

I'd recomend you all save dross in a bucket. Then when it's full sell it off.

[badgeredd]

This isn't going to sound real scientific as I am not a scientist. To 5 lbs of COWW I add 2 zinc pennies. When the pennies are melted I add 4 tablespoons copper sulfate. I work the CS against the side of the pot until I have a fine dark colored POWDER on top of the alloy. I then add 15 lbs of range salvage lead and when melted and up to casting temp I flux with beeswax. This seems fairly repeatable to me. I agree with others on here that repeatability of the alloy is very important. Copper added to the alloy may have been tried and retried in years past but those casters did not have the benefit of this forum to exchange information and ideas of successes they had achieved. I realise we are at just the beginning of our trials of adding copper but I think we will make it work if we keep up the exchange. Heck ..... we might even be famous someday and be remembered as "those old guys" that did it.

Nighthunter

:-D:twisted:[smilie=1::-D:drinks:

HECK...Popper and I are already some of those "old guys"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edd

[savingprivateyang]

GabbyM,
What do you mean by "Then smelting is a huge chore not to mention dangerous. You can not smelt in a pot."? Do you mean, you can not smelt the dross in a pot, or just smelting in general? I currently smelt in a cast iron sauce pan on a propane burner. I'm collecting all my dross so I can extract the lead at a later date. If lead extraction from dross is dangerous, what are the dangers involved? I dont want to die :cry:.

[swheeler]

Manbeast; 3 samples of alloy shipped today, USPS. Scot

[MK1MICAH]

Wow! This sure has piqued my intrest. I work for an exotic car dealer and our wheel weights are almost all stick-on's Early in my Lead hoarding phase I kept any and all. Once I got a monster of a pot I smelted them all down into ingots not knowing the exact content of the melt. I now have obtained the MSDS sheets on these and looks like the contain Lead, Antimony,and Zinc and possibly some Tin somewhere. Can I use this method to refine my Alloy while adding strength to the alloy? I have read this thread over the weekend and I am not sure this has all been worked out yet and dont want to waist the alloy on something that doesnt have results! I am so ready to jump on board with this and help out with testing as I cast for .45-70 Marlin FNPB,FNGC,SHPGC,LHPGC which will be easy to see the results with.

[303Guy]

I've been thinking of having a lid arrangement with a small gas flame over the melt to maintain a reducing atmosphere. For a 'smelting' pot I'm planning a gas heated pot with the exhaust led over the surface and out, again to maintain a reducing atmosphere plus adding heat from the surface, or at least, preventing heat loss from the surface of the melt.

[badgeredd]

I've been thinking of having a lid arrangement with a small gas flame over the melt to maintain a reducing atmosphere. For a 'smelting' pot I'm planning a gas heated pot with the exhaust led over the surface and out, again to maintain a reducing atmosphere plus adding heat from the surface, or at least, preventing heat loss from the surface of the melt.

It sounds like a good idea to me to reduce oxidation. It may even help to eliminate some of the noxious fumes that are often present when smelting scrap lead alloys. I know there is a significant improvement when smelting if one adds wood chips and light the resulting gases that come off the melt. Let us know how it works if you proceed with the idea.

Edd

[swheeler]

Tested some 40SW by pounding sized CBs into the muzzle, comparing various mixes of sulfur and copper toughened alloy. Under a 20x loupe, I can see the sulfur hardened breaks off chunks of displaced lead, the Cu alloy (AC or WD) doesn't. I think it was R5R that suggested the Cu to solve this problem (leading in the 40 ) that got me going down the Cu trail. Both alloys started as 50/50 Pb/#2 with shot added. first hardened with S. I converted the 2nd with CS and cut to 75/25 (1/1/0 Sb/Cu/Sn). Both work fine in the 308, no leading but they have GCs. The Cu strengthens the Sb as well as the Pb. The WW I converted was almost as good as the 1/1/0. Got to load the 40 with Cu alloy and give it a try. If the puppy will stop messing on the floor maybe I can make some alloy with the pennys today. Actually the 40 is most accurate (2"@25 & no leading) with 50/50 #2/Pb lubed with peanut butter.

How did it work out?

[swheeler]

Only one with Cu that I have shot was 308, about 3 gr down from max. hodgdon data. That worked fine, posted targets earlier. Going clay busting with a friend today so no casting yet. The .40 test casts I did were with a worn out Lee, need to cast with the accurate mould for shooting. I intend to make small batches of various ratios, cast for the .40, 30-30 and 308 to see what works best for what. Yes, the puppy is still making a mess, but she's only 14 wks and always hungry.

Popper I was wondering about you using the pennies as the zinc source, something similar to what I did to see if you can convert something around 1%. I think maybe Edd was right in that I had more zinc than was soluable in my alloy, that and all the free copper floating around, or maybe I just screwed up the experiment by adding to much CS at once. I did notice in nighthunters post that he isn't converting until CS turns white, I would assume that he still has zn in the alloy although minute amount compared to what I did.

[BABore]

Swheeler,

I had a similar situation as you on the first batch using CS. I used known zinc-free components of WW's, PB, and Edd's babbit. With the mix at 750 F I dumped in the whole lot of CS which should have given me 0.5% Cu. It clumped up big time. I busted it up and stirred it in for 10-15 minutes. It never did look like it went from blue, to white, and then to a light grey. It went from a clump to a dark mud-brown. I tried some flux and all kinds of additional stuff came out. All nasy brown. After skimming and cleaning up the mess I casted boolits and water dropped them per my normal routine. They later tested out about the same 28-30 bhn that I get from 50/50+ Edd's babbit. It didn't appear like I got any additional CU in the alloy.

I later did a second batch where I took my time. With the melt at 800 F, I would add a thin layer of CS and a pinch of citric acid. Had to do this about 8-10 times to get it all in. Each addition went from blue to white, then slowly turned light grey as I broke it up and stirred it in. No additional crud or dross was released. I skimmed about the same volume of powder as the CS I added. The resulting WD booilts tested out at 36+ bhn. Edd has samples of this alloy for testing.

[swheeler]

BaBore thanks for that. So I don't think I got any Cu into the alloy, 1 week after water dropping I get a 17.9BHN, actually less than I get from the original 50/50 I started with. I think I ended up burning all the tin out and drossed out a bunch of the antimony. I have a sample in for testing right now, so the answer will be in Manbeasts results.

[madsenshooter]

What was the percentage of Cu you were shooting for in the 36bhn batch? How much zinc & CS?

[BABore]

What was the percentage of Cu you were shooting for in the 36bhn batch? How much zinc & CS?

I was shooting for a 50/50 WW-Pb alloy with 1.5% of Edd's RR babbit (which contains both Cu and Ni) along with 0.5% Cu from the copper sulfate. I did not use zinc contaminated alloy nor added zinc. I added additional babbit so the CS would rob the tin from it.

[swheeler]

OK, cast some 40 this morning, 1/1/0 Sb/Cu/Sn, I'll load and try to shoot next week. Also did the penny thing. Had to get the pot to ~ 850F to get the penny to dissolve. Got the oatmeal mush on top. A little more heat and it became liquid so I sprinkled CS on top. Took a while but melt turned gold/brown on top. Stirred good and finally got brownish powder dross on top, about the same amount as the CS I put in. This should get the alloy to 2% Cu, 1% Sb. Poured some ingots so I'll cast this later for .308 and see how it does. I've been asked if this method can get a 'sweetener' alloy. I don't think so. The Cu has to alloy with tin, antimony, lead. Any excess is free Cu which probably floats to the top, shows a brown color and gets removed as dross. It doesn't dross out antimony in any way. I like the way it casts, perfect fillout without any tin, even in the beat up Lee mould I have. The TL isn't beat up and they almost jump out. The TC one lost an alignment pin again this morning and the sprue plate is loose so I get flash on the base but they still just take a tap to get out. From 100 or so I got about 5 rejects. Next cast I'll reduce the Cu and see how that shoots in pistol, the alloy works well in rifle.

Popper I though you were supposed to continue with the copper sulphate treatment until it remained white, meaning it had converted all the zinc.

[303Guy]

I've been trying the copper sulphate trick with high tin and no zinc. The dark brown/blackish stuff on top was worrying me so I tried the tinned copper tube trick. That did not work but anyway, I used a gas torch on the copper tube and stuff on top and it melted into a brown glaze looking stuff - not the copper tube. I tried melting it into the metal and some did appear to do so but when I dipped the hot copper tube in to stir the pot, I ended up with a huge brown glazed lump on the tube.

The first cast with this 'new' alloy came out at the same harness the 'old' alloy reached after a week. That could be due to quenching in he mold - I used a Lee mold this time.

The 'calculated' alloy is;
±90% Pb, ±6.8% Sn, ±1.8% Sb, 1.5 ~ 2% Cu

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/Copperalloy008_zps8269cf43.jpg

[badgeredd]

I've been trying the copper sulphate trick with high tin and no zinc. The dark brown/blackish stuff on top was worrying me so I tried the tinned copper tube trick. That did not work but anyway, I used a gas torch on the copper tube and stuff on top and it melted into a brown glaze looking stuff - not the copper tube. I tried melting it into the metal and some did appear to do so but when I dipped the hot copper tube in to stir the pot, I ended up with a huge brown glazed lump on the tube.

The first cast with this 'new' alloy came out at the same harness the 'old' alloy reached after a week. That could be due to quenching in he mold - I used a Lee mold this time.

The 'calculated' alloy is;
±90% Cu, ±6.8% Sn, ±1.8% Sb, 1.5 ~ 2% Cu


Do you mean 90% Pb vs 90% Cu? More like 90% Pb, 6.8% Sn, 1.8% Sb, 1.5-2% CU?

IMHO, I believe the Sn is too high as is the Cu, but that is my opinion only.

Are you using the alloy fro GG boolits or PPed boolits?

Edd

[303Guy]

Yes, that would be 90% lead.

These are for paper patching and the idea is to make a stronger base to resist launch deformation yet have enough ductility to expand easily yet hold together under worst case conditions.

I have no way of actually estimating the copper as I cannot tell how much got absorbed. I'm only assuming that some did get absorbed and the change in hardness tends to support that assumption. But the amount of copper absorbed may well be less by a factor of ten i.e. 0.15% to 0.2%. The colour of the alloy does not suggest any copper but then the tin content is high. Interestingly, I found a reference that gave 0.16% copper as the eutectic for lead-copper (the amount that can be held in solution at the melting point of lead).

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/Copperalloy016_zpsea2a33a2.jpg

Here I did the hammer test. It took a number of blows using a 4lb hammer over a thick steel plate to get it this thin.

Prior to the 'addition' of copper, this same alloy was so soft after casting I could bend the boolit with my fingers. They quickly hardened up though.

[madsenshooter]

Trying to bend a long bullet is good test for the alloy's strength, as compared to say a brittle lino bullet which is apt to snap.

[357maximum]

just for the new/uninformed as I know alot of you know this.........First time I did a "hammer test" on a pure lino boolit I hit the boolit slightly off center and stuck 1/2 of the boolit into a piece of paneling leaning in the shop 3 feet away. Be careful beating on "ceramic" alloys...they can become more than stationary projectiles. I am sure it would have broken the skin if it had hit flesh.

[303Guy]

Thanks popper. I doubt my alloy will fly off like shrapnel. It's not brittle, just quite tough. I can still bend the thinnest part of the disc. I bent it back and forth, trying to weaken it but it work hardened and I couldn't bend it anymore! I did have a skew blow on it but it hardly moved of the plate.

[Manbeast]

Ok, sorry for the delay. I ended up working later than anticipated. Here we go, all results in percent value and not all minute values given, ie Cd, V, Ag at less than .25%

Cu Zn As Sn Sb Pb Ti
Sample 'A': .913 .117 5.57 .781 1.41 88.2 1.99

Sample 'B' .411 .013 4.97 .981 1.66 89.7 2.01

Sample 'C' .789 .02 5.01 1.26 3.51 86.7 1.89

[swheeler]

Ok, sorry for the delay. I ended up working later than anticipated. Here we go, all results in percent value and not all minute values given, ie Cd, V, Ag at less than .25%

Cu Zn As Sn Sb Pb Ti
Sample 'A': .913 .117 5.57 .781 1.41 88.2 1.99

Sample 'B' .411 .013 4.97 .981 1.66 89.7 2.01

Sample 'C' .789 .02 5.01 1.26 3.51 86.7 1.89



Manbeast first off I would like to thank you for doing this for all members here.

Sample A- 50/50 coww to pb, this was the 23 penny/copper sulphate experiment that was supposed to yeild a .8% cu alloy

Sample B- 50/50 coww/pb

Sample C- RR babbit that was gifted to me by Edd

Is it just me or does the arsenic % look extremely high, and where the heck does titanium come from in these %.

[swheeler]

Popper it looks like your process works, I still had some zn left to convert though .117%

[badgeredd]

My guess is that some of the percentages are swapped in locations, based on what I know to be true of the babbit. It is a Sn based babbit with very low Pb content. I appreciate the effort but it appears to me the results are not in the appropriate elemental columns.

Can you re-check your results Manbeast for proper placement?

Edd

[swheeler]

Yes, that arsenic looks way high. They could be using range lead, reclaimed shot for the COWW. ManBeast - what device do you use for the analysis?

No range lead or shot in these, brother had 42 years in the tire business, he helped with my ww addiction. The arsenic is high in the tin based babbit too, that 86.7% pb should be sn. Maybe manbeast could check numbers on his end, just a typo?

Edit; the 50/50 coww/pb shows .4% cu

[303Guy]

Curious - I found an old copper alloy boolit (with who knows what all else in it) and tried to trim off the unsupported nose section by rolling it under a sharp knife on a cutting board. It started out well enough but got harder and harder to cut deeper until I could cut no further. This stuff work hardens! It's the same observation I made when firing them into soft sand. They mushroomed perfectly but came out hard. Someone on this board mentioned having made the same observation. This was the same alloy that I could measure the hardening in half hour to hour intervals with water dropping only making about two hours difference. This copper alloy plus all the other grain refiners is awesome stuff!

[swheeler]

No, I meant that possibly the WW company uses whatever they can get to make the WW.

I see, anything IS possible but would not think the As would be that high in the tin based babbit.

[I'll Make Mine]

Titanium in alloy samples likely comes as contamination in refining one of the metals (zinc, as a best guess -- zinc and titanium have similar crystal and chemical habits, so I'd expect Ti to be very soluble in Zn) -- titanium crusher teeth, for instance, might spall off dust sized or larger chips in ore processing (this is how teeth wear, after all). Once introduced, titanium is almost impossible to get rid of; it wouldn't replace in the copper sulfate treatment, at least until the zinc was effectively gone (maybe not then, titanium sulfide probably wouldn't precipitate as long as lead and antimony are present to produce less soluble sulfides -- this assuming the sulfate gets reduced to sulfide by the heat and flux).

[edwin41]

hi , ive been reading this post with great interest.
somewhile back i also was experimenting with copper sulphate , but i wasnt trying to get it IN my alloy , but ON it.
when you disolve your coppersulfate in water , mix it with some acid , and put in a piece of copper as an kathode you have a
device that will put on a layer of copper on a given object .
didnt get the right adhesion to the lead bullets though , but when this is sorted out , could it be a more simpeler system for the same goal ?

[Manbeast]

The analyzer is an xrf analyzer used for assay. I am sure that none of the values are transposed, however I am going to do some more testing on various solder, ww and cut jacketed bullets. Mostly for reference and as a sort of standard for comparison. I am also open to analyzing whatever anyone would like.

[swheeler]

The analyzer is an xrf analyzer used for assay. I am sure that none of the values are transposed, however I am going to do some more testing on various solder, ww and cut jacketed bullets. Mostly for reference and as a sort of standard for comparison. I am also open to analyzing whatever anyone would like.

Thanks for the offer. I have some other alloys I would like yested later, much appreciated. Scott

[historicfirearms]

I've been following this thread with interest. I'm not a chemist so I need a simple answer. Could I take a bucket of coww that I got from my mechanic friend, and without sorting out the zinc ww, just melt them all down then stir in some copper sulphate? This would make life much easier as I wouldn't have to sort wheel weights.

[badgeredd]

Actually, that is kinda what I plan on doing in a way in the future. The problem of course is you'll not have much idea how much copper you are getting into the alloy since the zinc is an unknown. My intent is to take some contaminated WW lead and use the copper sulfate to remove the zinc. I know it has quite a bit of zinc in it so I figure I won't be loosing anything. Of course I won't have much of an idea as to the copper content and it will not be repeatable in any way.

Edd

[imashooter2]

I've been following this thread with interest. I'm not a chemist so I need a simple answer. Could I take a bucket of coww that I got from my mechanic friend, and without sorting out the zinc ww, just melt them all down then stir in some copper sulphate? This would make life much easier as I wouldn't have to sort wheel weights.

With zinc and steel passing 50% of the bucket content these days, that is going to be a LOT of copper sulfate to remove all the zinc. I doubt it will be very cost effective.

[GabbyM]

Those zinc weights will float to the top with all the clips. Just scoop it all off and set aside. After your pot is to desired lead level. weigh out desired amount of zinc weights then add them in. Turning the heat up so they'll melt. My plan is to add one then some copper sulfate. Trying to avoid the oat meal mush.

I'll be adding my CU into pure Pb. Then mixing 50-50 with WW plus a littel tin. My pot holds eighty pounds so half pot of pure Pb to melt in the CU then WW to top and poor into ingots. Probably use the lid on to melt the zinc faster.

Does that sound about right?

[nighthunter]

I smelt in a wood pellet stove. I made a grate to sit above the burn chamber and set a small cast iron pot on the grate. I have a metal box that sits on top of the pot. The box has small holes drilled in the bottom. I fill the box with COWW or range bullets, whichever I am doing at the time. The lead melts and drips into the pot and the clips and jackets remain in the box. The box is removed and dumped and refilled until I have a pot full. It doesn't take nearly as long to get a pot full as one would imagine.
Today I melted till I had about 8 pounds of COWW in the pot. I put a 1 oz zinc WW into the pot and waited for it to melt. I removed the pot and fluxed the melt. I then put 1/2 cup of copper sulfate in the pot and put it back into the stove. I left the pot in the stove until the melt took on a slight reddish glow and the CS had long since turned white. I removed the pot from the stove and stirred the mix till the CS became a powder again. I then added a good amout of flux and worked the mix with a piece of oak. Poured the melt onto ingots. The result is a mix that took on more copper than doing it in my Lee bottom pour. I tried it this way because of 357Max's post about heating his babbit really hot to get copper wire to melt into his alloy. I think the added heat will be a benefit. I'll cast with it in the next few days and give the results.

Nighthunter

[olaf455]

I tried this method, but my lee dripmaster would not get hot enough. Covered it and let it cook and finally got the zinc melted in and the reaction to happen.

[dverna]

Awaiting further range reports - Tagged for reference

[HollowPoint]

I tried reading through this whole thread from start to finish. I have to admit, I wasn't able to keep up with all of it but it sounds promising.

There are the traditional tried-and-true ways of hardening your cast bullets and the time involved to get them
to that hardened state isn't to much more involved than mixing copper into you mix. If I could get repeatable results
by adding copper to my mix I think I'd rather try this copper alloying method.

Ideally, it would be nice if one of you more knowledable hands-on guys could come up with an uncomplicated and specific
recipie that would give repeatable results.

If you had to guess, how far away are we from reaching that point?

Here's a couple questions that occured to me as I read this thread;

If your bullet alloy contains a sufficient amount of copper in the mix, would this mitigate the need for gas-checks?

Since the copper hardens the bullets, what type of chore is it to size your bullets after they're cast?

Thanks in advance.

HollowPoint

[Doc Highwall]

As Popper above says.

The copper it to help keep the bullet from shattering at high impact velocities for hunting loads.

I am following it for high pressure long range loads 600-1000 yards.

[badgeredd]

I tried reading through this whole thread from start to finish. I have to admit, I wasn't able to keep up with all of it but it sounds promising.

There are the traditional tried-and-true ways of hardening your cast bullets and the time involved to get them
to that hardened state isn't to much more involved than mixing copper into you mix. If I could get repeatable results
by adding copper to my mix I think I'd rather try this copper alloying method.

Ideally, it would be nice if one of you more knowledable hands-on guys could come up with an uncomplicated and specific
recipie that would give repeatable results. I along with a couple others (at least) are working toward that end.

If you had to guess, how far away are we from reaching that point? I really think we'll have some pretty firm recipes within the limits of what we know to be in the alloys. By that I mean, I personally really want to know exactly what is in a successful alloy and just how tight the percentages have to be for it to be reasonably repeatable. I suspect that 357maximum is somewhat correct in thinking it may not be as critical as I might think. But I think the "window" is smaller than he thinks. We're both kinda guessing for now.

Here's a couple questions that occured to me as I read this thread;

If your bullet alloy contains a sufficient amount of copper in the mix, would this mitigate the need for gas-checks? I seriously doubt that, but it may increase the threshhold we accept for plain base boolits.

Since the copper hardens the bullets, what type of chore is it to size your bullets after they're cast? Like popper said, it really doesn't harden the boolit, it toughens the alloy.

Thanks in advance.

HollowPoint

I sure will be glad to see some decent shooting weather here so I can answer some questions...mine as well as others!

Edd

[swheeler]

It has been one month since adding some Cu to my alloy Popper style.
Cu.913%,Sn .781%, Sb1.41%, Pb 88.2%

314-299 H2O dropped
right after pouring 13.4BHN, .3128" on bottom band
48 hrs 17.9
1 week 17.9 .3134"
1 month 19.3 .3143" diameter growth of .0015"

EDIT TO ADD FROM MANBEAST
Ok, sorry for the delay. I ended up working later than anticipated. Here we go, all results in percent value and not all minute values given, ie Cd, V, Ag at less than .25%

Cu Zn As Sn Sb Pb Ti
Sample 'A': .913 .117 5.57 .781 1.41 88.2 1.99

[runfiverun]

i'm taking the As-, as arsenic and sulpher, just being read as arsenic.
that's a lot of grain refiner.
i don't remember if sulpher is a surface tensioner or not.
but i'd keep an eye out for yellowish dross from it.

[swheeler]

R5R - I don't know if sulfur is detected by the XRF as As or not. As symbol is arsenic, sulfur is S. Anyway that is a lot of As - or whatever.

FRom page ten of this thread..........

Originally Posted by Manbeast
Ok, sorry for the delay. I ended up working later than anticipated. Here we go, all results in percent value and not all minute values given, ie Cd, V, Ag at less than .25%

Cu Zn As Sn Sb Pb Ti
Sample 'A': .913 .117 5.57 .781 1.41 88.2 1.99

Sample 'B' .411 .013 4.97 .981 1.66 89.7 2.01

Sample 'C' .789 .02 5.01 1.26 3.51 86.7 1.89


Manbeast first off I would like to thank you for doing this for all members here.

Sample A- 50/50 coww to pb, this was the 23 penny/copper sulphate experiment that was supposed to yeild a .8% cu alloy

Sample B- 50/50 coww/pb

Sample C- RR babbit that was gifted to me by Edd

Is it just me or does the arsenic % look extremely high, and where the heck does titanium come from in these %.

[swheeler]

notice nearly 5% As in every sample sent

[MUSTANG]

Actually, that is kinda what I plan on doing in a way in the future. The problem of course is you'll not have much idea how much copper you are getting into the alloy since the zinc is an unknown. My intent is to take some contaminated WW lead and use the copper sulfate to remove the zinc. I know it has quite a bit of zinc in it so I figure I won't be loosing anything. Of course I won't have much of an idea as to the copper content and it will not be repeatable in any way.


Edd

I, as I am sure many others, continue watching from the side for definitive results from those with a more dedicated scientific approach to determining process and output; but I have been also dabbling a bit on the issue with about 75 pounds of Wheel Weights alloy heavily contaminated with Zink. Cost of ZEP Root Kill, coupled with a long drive to the store if replenishment is required, caused me to use a combination approach to reclaiming this contaminated alloy:

(1) I heat up 10lbs of contaminated alloy in my Lyman MiniMag pot; No Thermostat control on this one. My Lee Production Pot died last month at the tender age of 35 years, having cast at least 5000 lbs in it's life. Once the contaminated alloy is nice and melted, I scoop the mush off the top and keep skimming until the mush is gone. I am getting about a 15% to 20% reduction in volume that goes into the scrap skillet, to be remelted down at a later date and cast into ingots - I'll figure out what to do with the skimmed Zink and whatever alloy at some future date.

(2) I treat the remaining molten alloy with Sulfur (Ferti-lome brand Dusting Sulfur, bought at ACE Hardware for about $6.00 per 2lb container). Initially, the alloy during the start of this phase has a sharp 90 degree intersection with the side of the pot. I sulfur treat (the sulfur ignites and burns, chars, out gases, and picks up much of the Zink). Scraping the sides of the pot, particularly where the Zink is adhered to the Steel, repeating until the intersection of the melted alloy and the steel sidewall begins to develop that nicely rounded meniscus similar in appearance to water in a glass.

(3) Lastly I treat with the ZEP Root Killer as described in early portions of this thread. The Zink that is still in the alloy, should be exchanged for the copper in the ZEP.

I have cast a few hundred NOE311365's with this remaining alloy and I am getting a harder boolit than with my normal Wheel Weight Alloy's. I am confident I am getting some level of copper into the alloy, but as BADGEREDD points out, no quantitative way to define the resultant alloy. The process I described in (1) through (3) seems to result in the most cost effective means of reducing the Zink from my contaminated alloy, with a useable hard alloy for Boolits.

One day I'll have to add a Hardness Tester to my kit so I can have some sort of quantitative measurement beyond finger nail and pencil lead tests.

Mustang

[leadman]

I worked with some zinc contaminated alloy today. I got it to about 600 deg. and fluxed with sawdust. The sawdust had alot of something that was shiny like melted lead on it so I kept fluxing until no more came out. I increased the temperature to over 750 deg. and added the Root Killer at least 5 times. The dust never returned to white but I was not finding anything in it so stopped. I then fluxed with beeswax and had a real pretty multi-colored flame. Since it was blue/green I think it might be some excess copper??
The ingots look good and "tink" nicely when dropped on the floor. I will cast with ithem tomorrow and hope all is good.

[runfiverun]

sulpher burns off with a green flame that has a blue lick to it.

[leadman]

Use Root Killer, no sulphur involved. I noticed if some of the RK dust fell off the side of the pot into the flame it burned blue/green.

I tested the hardness a couple of minutes ago on a boolit I water quenched this morning and it is at 18 BHN already. An air cooled boolit cast this morning is at 8 BHN.
I am going to check both a/c and w/q one a week for 6 weeks just to see how they age. The alloy before treatment with the RK was 8bhn when air cooled so the treatment did not change that so far.
The treated alloy did cast well at 650 degrees.

[swheeler]

Leadman it would be interesting if you would mark a bullet and take diameter measurements, see how much they grow.

[303Guy]

I don't recommend adding copper sulphate in a Lee bottom pour pot. It does things to the steel and leaves a hard to remove build up. Mine was new and suddenly began to leak and block up.:( I didn't have my stainless smelting pot handy at the time.

[Smokepole50]

Well I just finished reading the entire thread and it has been very interesting. I am new to casting anything other then T/C maxi-balls years ago before the sabot so I am still a novice at casting. I do have a few questions and comments so please forgive any lack of understanding concerning casting if I ask a stupid question.

First off I can see the need to remove Zinc contamination from COWW ingots. As I understand it Zinc is a bad thing when casting boolits, not experienced enough to know why but I will believe everyone here that says it is a problem.

So, if Zinc is bad then why add it to your uncontaminated melt at all if you can make the (Cu) Copper transfer process work with just a small loss of (Sn) Tin in the melt, especially if you are going to cast it into ingots and then remelt it 50/50 with more COWW later to beef up the (Sn) Tin and (Sb) Antimony levels?

From looking at the data provided by Manbeast, assuming that the starting material of the 50/50 Pb mix in both example 1 and example 2 were the same 50/50 Pb mix, I think you can make the argument that it might not be worth the addition of the Zinc just to transfer the the Copper especially if you are leaving some Zinc behind. If I understood one of the earlier post correctly, both Zinc and Tin will transfer the Copper to the melt at the same rate. If this is correct then the loss of Tin down from .981 in sample 2 (no pennies) to .781 in sample 1 that had the Zinc pennies added to it is only a loss of .200 Tin in the mix. The Copper % went from .411% in sample 2 to a .931% in sample 1, a increase of .521%. If you can make the assumption that the transference of Copper to the melt is a 1:1 transfer rate with both Zinc and Tin then there would have also been a transferance of .200% of Copper by the Zinc but this only gives us a .400% increase in the Copper level and we see a .521% increase so either the Zinc or the Tin is doing a better than 1:1 job at transfering the Copper into the alloy.

I know from reading here that Tin is fairly expensive but getting a consistant alloy result is just as important. I would suggest that another FOUR sample test be done using the exact same starting material such as the 50/50 Pb used in the previous test.

In one test just cast a boolit and see what is in it again.

In test two add in a weighted volume of Copper Sulfate to see what the transference rate is and the Tin loss is.

In test three add in (3) 1982 or later pennies (all from the same year) and see how much the zinc level rises in the alloy.

In test four add in (3) 1982 or later pennies of the (same year) and then the same weighted volume of Copper Sulfate to see how much Tin vs Zinc is removed. This data should give us some good numbers as to how much Copper Sulfate needs to be added to remove (X) Zinc and (Y) Tin. It should also be very helpful in determinig if it is even worth adding Zinc to the alloy just to transfer Copper into the alloy when the existing Tin might work better and can be adjusted back up later with subsquent alloying.

All this of course is for the purpose of adding Copper (Cu) to a already properly alloyed melt. The process of removing Zinc from a bad batched of COWW by the addition of Cupper Sulfate seems to be a good process althought it would seem that it may be limited in how much Zinc can be removed before you are limited by the uptake limit of Copper in the alloy and highier and highier melting tempatures.

[Smokepole50]

I thought I understood that the Lead alloy would only hold a certain amount of Copper. If that is true, how will all the Tin or Zinc be removed from a given Lead alloy by continuing to add Copper Sulfate?

In my experiment I was not suggesting a comparison of the Copper Sulfate weight to the weight of removed Zinc or Tin. I was only suggesting using the same weighed amount of Copper Sulfate in each experiment ( rather that Teaspoon, level, rounded, heaping???) so that the two experiments would be the same. If the same exact weight of Copper Sulfate is used ( they both should be holding approx. the same amount of water) in each experiment then you should be able to say X amount of Copper Sulfate added will remove Y amount of Zinc in one experiment and (X) amount of Copper Sulfate removed (Y) amount of Tin in the second experiment that did not have the pennies added. With that knowledge you can then see if the transference rate of Zinc and Tin are actually the same once you have the XRF measurements. The only hitch here it that the starting alloy will have some Tin already in it (but you will know how much from the XFR) when the pennies are added and this Tin will react as well along with the Zinc somewhat fudging the numbers on the Zinc transference rate alone but the interaction of the two metals ( Zinc and Tin) in the melt while the transference of Copper is taking place would still provide some useful information and a ratio could be made of how much Tin was removed while in the presence of the Zinc vs when the Zinc was not in the mix.

I know this sounds like a lot of effort and it would seem that there is some doubt as to the accuracy of the XRF measurement system but I would suggest that it is the best tool you have to get the information you need to make correct decisions in an effort to establish a process of making a alloy that is repeatable. The XRF may need calibrating but it is most likely very accurate and a good (FREE)standard from which to draw conclusions IMO.

Smokepole50

[badgeredd]

IMHO, Smokepole50, that is exactly the right approach. It would seem to me that if the XRF was calibrated against a known standard, one would get answers that were as close to scientifically accurate as we as hobbyists can get. PLUS it would answer a question I have had from the beginning about this approach to adding copper. It would seem to me that if the copper replaces Zn, one would not need to waste the Sn to get an alloy. Charts and graphs are great guides but to me the proof is in the details of the finished product...if we want repeatable results.

Edd

[xacex]

Ahh, found this again. This thread needs a sticky. This is a better process than sulfur removal of zinc. I try not to contaminate my lead, but it is now fall and I still have not tried it. Just finished elk season, so I get to spend some time in the casting shack finally.

[farmerjim]

I have been following this thread for quite a while. I got some Babbitt a while back with 4% Cu. I used some of this to add about 1% tin to the 100 pounds of alloy that I was mixing up to be about 12 BHN. This mix was about .004 % Cu.
It tested 17 BHN. I want to put Copper in all of my less than soft alloys from now on. I have some zinc contaminated lead and some copper sulphate. I have mixes these together in the smelting pot but don't know what to look for to know that all the zinc has reacted with the sulfur and the Cu is in the mix. This Copper addition looks to be a better alloy than adding Sb to make the alloy hard but brittle. I have not cast any Boolits with this yet, but should do so in the next few days. I will load them for my new 22 hornet Handi rifle. I dont know when I will get to test them because my neighbor bitches to the max anytime I shoot during Deer season even though they will walk into the back field, where I shoot, within 5 minutes after I stop shooting. These deer are totally acclimated to cars, tractors, leaf blowers and gunshots, but some people will not look at the facts.

[farmerjim]

I got the Boolits cast yesterday afternoon. Now to Hi-Tek coat and size them. As soon as it warms up this afternoon, I will finish changing the Zn contaminated Pb to Cu contaminated Pb. Thanks for the help.

[meeesterpaul]

Some foundry type already has copper in it. When I go get some samples XRF scanned I'll probably keep some of this aside rather than smelt it into the ingots that I'm selling.
947549475594756

[JackQuest]

Guess this is a bump of sorts.

Having read over and over again the various threads on adding copper it seems that the correct series of steps would be to add zinc to pure Pb, then exchange the Zn for Copper (Cu) - this to prevent removal of any Tin that might be in any other alloy. As noted in many posts to these threads about 0.1% to 0.2% copper appears to be the "sweet spot" regardless of the Tin (Sn) and Antimony (Sb) desired in the end mix.

To that end I intend an experiment with 15 pounds Pure and about 112 grains of Zinc. Next exchange for Cu through copper sulphate. Finally, add 1 pound of foundry type (alloy something like 15% Tin - 23% Antimony - 62% lead). Final alloy should be something like 94% Pb - 1.4% Sn - 4.5% Sb - 0.1% Cu. Mathematical errors expected as I made no allowances for density differences between any of the alloying agents.

I water drop all my boolets, built a casting "station" years ago that makes the process simple and fast. Will let rest at room temperature for a week or so after casting to allow age hardening prior to size & lube in the Star. Thinking both 68BB for .45 ACP and RCBS 45-405-GC for 45-70 Ruger "#2". In the ACP velocity is not a factor. In the 45-70 velocity IS a factor and the added toughness of the Cu alloying should be most useful. Lot of dangerous game here about in eastern Iowa!

[madsenshooter]

Be prepared for that moose they been seeing out there! I know why he's wandering around, he's got no hills for reference.

[Garyshome]

I have to give this a try!

[finstr]

OK I've tried to follow along, so now I need to ask a dumb question...
For every 100lbs of COWW's how many ounces/lbs of zinc do I add and how many Tbsp's of copper sulphate?

[sdcitizen]

If anyone really wants to know exactly what an alloy produces, I may be able to test it at work. We had tried one of those handheld xrf machines and got rid of it for accuracy reasons, the desktop model we have now has eliminated the need for fire analysis, and apparently agrees with Johnson-Matthey on alloys we send them.

[JackQuest]

be prepared for that moose they been seeing out there! I know why he's wandering around, he's got no hills for reference.

lol!!!

[Good Cheer]

In reading through the thread I noted the description of the color changes going through bright straw through bright blue. I've noted the same astonishing brilliant blue that remains even when the pot is skimmed and the blue poured off to the side. Bright, bright blue. Without ever doing the copper treatment. Don't know what all is in the melted down chemical plant piping but it sure does that rainbow changes.

[45Reverse]

Greetings fellas (or fellas and ladies if there are any of the fairer sex here)

...Been reloading for several years but just recently jumped into casting my own. Up till now it’s been all FMJ/TMJ stuff for me. I prefer ‘jacketed’ bullets (plated or gilded, I don’t care) so I use a lot of Speer and Zero bullets in 9mm. But with it becoming harder and harder to find good CHEAP jacketed/plated bullets I decided to dive into casting and coating my own loads. It’s my interest in coating my cast rounds that lead me to this thread, but more on that later...

Last night I put together my first batch of the Cu mixed alloy using copper sulfate. I was shooting for between 1.5% and 2% Cu. Here’s what I did and what I think I ended up with:

I melted 7.5 lbs of pure Pb. To that I added about 14 ounces of Lino and 1.2 ounces of Sn. I decided to use Tin as my copper replacement vehicle instead of Zn because the melt was easier and the quantity was more accurately “known” than tossing in pennies or Zn WW.

Using the method described in this thread I added the copper sulfate until the melt would take no more...Now here’s a question I have about the process: Once I had exchanged all of the tin for Cu (copper sulfate would not turn grey any more when added to the mix) I fluxed the melt and added 1 more ounce of Sn to the mix to replace some of what I had alloyed out for Cu.

My question is: I’m pretty sure there was no more copper sulfate left in the mix at that point, so did I actually add tin back into my mix, or does it tend to replace itself with copper no matter what once Cu has been introduced to the melt?

If I am making correct assumptions above, and my math is correct, I should have the following alloy:
97.1% Lead
1.6% Copper
1.2% Antimony
.1% Tin

Do you guys concur that that is what I’ve created here? Would my addition of Sn after the copper addition was completed change my numbers?

The resulting ingots were much harder than one would normally associate with 97% lead and 1.2% antimony. The surface had a unique crystalline look to it with a large broad crystal lattice that was quite noticeable and distinct. I don’t have Bnh tester to confirm and I haven’t cast any rounds from it yet, but it sure does “look” and “feel” like a dam tough alloy.

Thanks fellas! Enjoying the forum so far, TONS of great info here :)

~45Reverse

[RedHawk357Mag]

Ok last post on this was 24 April...nobody else experimenting with this? In other words bump??

[tommag]

I am trying this method now. I added 3oz zn to 19# ww ingots. So far, I have added copper sulfate, 2 heaping teaspoons at a time, for 7 times. I'm starting to get a bit of brown powder with the grey. Also, when I break the crud from the sides. I sometimes get a fairly lightweight metallic clump with the dross. Is this excess zn? It goes back in if I grind it against the sides.
I'm still getting grey dross, no white yet. This is a bit more time consuming than I thought.

[tommag]

Thanks, Popper. I must've had a lot of sn in these old ww ingots, as most of the dross has been grey.
I cast a small bunch for testing. They are huge..3607" ww, .367 from this batch. Water dropped them, and 14 bhn shortly after casting. 31-32 bhn this morning. I'm thinking I messed up with the lee tester. Didn't have a big hammer, just a 20 oz one. Boolits flattened to .75" with multiple hits, no cracking at all.

[Magana559]

I must say, what a read! Learned lots and maybe I should try this with my HP molds.

[CrazyMan]

Great thread. I don't usually post but wanted to contribute my experience so far. I have been looking for the elusive brown ZnXX but have yet to get any. The base metal I'm using is from reclaimed bullet lead so its an unknown alloy but from my reading should be mostly lead with very little tin < 2%. My issue is that I add CS, a lot of CS, and it always comes out gray. Just today I estimate I put in 12 oz of CS into 110 oz of range lead and saw no brown powder, even after zinc'ing the melt with 6 pennies. I got the oatmeal, the melt was kept above 800 F but no brown powder. Every time I added CS, it stayed gray, the oatmeal would not disappear, it kind of stuck to the CS and made little lumps that I had to just finally skim off. In the end I probably removed about 1/3 of the original melt in skimming. After adding the pennies I got the color changing skin that goes from yellow to blue to purple. The purple skin is where I think I lost most of my melt in the skimming process. What do you think? Still free tin in the melt reacting before the Zn can? I even got a new pot to be sure it wasn't soot turning the white CS gray.

On a side note, I had a wad of the Grey powder that got trapped against the side of the pot and must have heated up enough to slowly combust. It sizzled a bit like sulfur and glowed red in the pot. It slowly spread to any other grey powder it touched and when I lifted the glowing lump from the melt it stopped glowing and hardened into a lump that would not melt at ~ 850F in the alloy. A bit of it is still stuck to the side of my new pot and I don't see it ever coming off.

[CrazyMan]

Thank you for the response. I haven't had the time to try again. Looks like the range lead must have more tin in it than I originally thought. I'll have to try just using CuSO4 first without any zinc added. It would be great to have some tough boolits I could use in full pressure rounds.

[Ido356]

popper, what are the percentages in your alloy of Pb/Sb/Cu that you have found to make tough pistol boolits?

I'm wanting to try making some Cu tough boolits but am not sure what the % you finally settled on.

Thanks,
Kenny

[Ido356]

What % of copper are members using in their alloy? from reading this post and the sticky post on High Copper Alloys, I see numbers from .3% to 2.5%.

[Ido356]

Thanks, popper.
I have another question; are there any problems using an alloy mix of 96/2/2, Pb/Sn/Sb and adding enough CS to convert 1/4th of the Sn, ending up with a mix of 96/1.5/2/.5, Pb/Sn/Sb/Cu or should the alloy be reduced to a direct Sn to Cu conversion and then adjust the Sb?

[Oklahoma Rebel]

anything over .5% is both un-needed and ,makes for harder pouring. the stream will develop a skin when pouring,which is the air cooled alloy on the very outside of the stream.this happens with anything over .6-.7% I think. and even .2-.4 will make a very noticeable difference. as far as that "oatmeal" add less cosu4 at a time, and crush that oatmeal up against the walls of your pot intil it is as fine as you can get it, skim it off and flux.

[runfiverun]

Popper is working on a zinc-copper alloy at the moment.
it's starting to show some promise, but he hasn't settled on a final number just yet.
we talked about adding some other metals but so far he has only bumped the percentages looking for the solution points.

[paraord]

Man, I must have hit the lottery then with this pile of high tin alloy from the wave solder machine. Lead 37.9%, Tin 61.6%, Copper 0.5%. I made some 405 grain flat point plain base with a 20:1 mix using this for the tin content, but it only makes it a .04% in the alloy when done at this rate. Poured great, cant wait to try them on game but looks like I have a good mess of posts to read on this thread!

[Oklahoma Rebel]

runfiverun, what other metals are you thinking about trying? I,ve heard talk of bismouth, but isn't it pretty brittle? and I am going to add some copper (zepp) to melted pipe lead, with quite a few joints, if I add the right amount of zinc, will the cuso4 replace it over the tin, or will it replace some of both? popper if you know this question goes to you as well. mainly does it prefer zinc over tin? thanks-Travis

[runfiverun]

it will replace the zinc but tin sticks to zinc like white on rice,,sooo.
Bi is a metal we have discussed, but it just duplicates antimony in the alloy up to a point and cost is a factor.
one thing that he mentioned was phases of the alloy and the Zn bumped alloy does a lot better under high stress situations right about where copper allows the flow of the alloy to occur.
but at low end situations it is able to be malleable, more malleable than in the higher stress
[higher velocity] impacts/pressures.
I'm still leaning towards an alloy containing Tin-Sn and Sb as well as the Zn and Cu.
this would surely tie everything but the Cu together.
this should allow the alloy to flow and be malleable when hunting while withstanding stress in the barrel because of the way the internal structure of the alloy is aligned/tied together.

[popper]

if I add the right amount of zinc, will the cuso4 replace it over the tin, or will it replace some of both? Not a metallurgist but it appears Sn/Cu is more active a reaction than Zn/Cu. So, best I can tell is it takes out all the Sn, then I add the Zn and it gets replaced, if that is what I want. Then add Sn or Zn as needed. Bi works as a hardener but is light weight - and I don't have any. Roto did (or was given) results for Bi bullets, results weren't very good on IMHO. There are differing opinions of Cu/Sn - Cu/Sb but I will repeat mine. Pb will only 'take' a low % of Cu, you can put more in but it's just Cu metal, not particularly good. To get higher % to 'take', it mates with Sb or Sn. SbCu is a small molecule where CuxSbx is a large one. Size matters. Small molecules migrate through the Pb easier. Note - Cu saturation % at melt temp is pretty good so WD will keep the Cu in the lattice, but it may 'move' and soften.

[Traffer]

Wow, why didn't I see this thread earlier? Here I went and used pure sulfur to de-zinc a batch of lead and I coulda added copper in the process. Ugh. If anyone cares to answer this noob question. I have a batch of Sb 8.2%, Sn 5.7% Pb 81.6% that has an undetermined amt of zinc in it. I want to use it for alloying to add tin and antimony to my other lead. If I were to do the copper zinc replacement treatment, and lost a good portion of my tin, is there any reasonable way to reclaim the tin from the tin oxide? My experience with oxides is, once it goes to the oxygen there's no coming back.

[Traffer]

hi , ive been reading this post with great interest.
somewhile back i also was experimenting with copper sulphate , but i wasnt trying to get it IN my alloy , but ON it.
when you disolve your coppersulfate in water , mix it with some acid , and put in a piece of copper as an kathode you have a
device that will put on a layer of copper on a given object .
didnt get the right adhesion to the lead bullets though , but when this is sorted out , could it be a more simpeler system for the same goal ?

I know this is an old post but, if you read this, were you ever able to satisfactorily copper plate your lead bullets? I reload 22lr and copper plating the bullets would be fun.

[Grmps]

Could a person, not alloy copper in a pure lead/zinc alloy to reach the desired copper % fluxing the last time with sulfur to remove any remaining zinc, then alloy it into Sb Sn Pb alloy?

[popper]

Long time ago I sulfer'd alloy to add hardness. I don't remember any junk getting skimmed off but IIRC it does have an effect on Zn and Sn. It also effects the amount of Cu that the alloy will take. I quit cause it's SMELLY! It hardens but doesn't help malleability.
I have been starting with pure, add Zn, then Cu, then Zn to get the %s I want.
Last batch I did, had trouble getting the last of the Zn to melt. Don't know what caused that. it appears that the solubility of Zn in Pb is ~1.6%.

[runfiverun]

sulpher is a grain modifier [so the lead packs together tighter]
it can replace arsenic as a catalyst for hardening also, and it is great at grabbing junk in the alloy pulling it to the top [zinc too BTW]
what I don't remember about it is if it also increases the surface tension like arsenic does.

Traffer.
you can copper plate lead bullets, before the powder coat thing come along, home plating was starting to make a lot of sense to people and some pretty impressive contraptions were being built.
I bet about 20 minutes on U-tube will show you enough about it to build your own unit.

I made one with a plastic shoe box and a plug in the wall power converter.
but I used mine to plate same case necks when doing some H/V cast boolit work.

somewhere around here there is another copper thread [sticky maybe] where I outlined how I got copper into a lead tin alloy then used that alloy to cut a SbPb alloy to the percentages I wanted.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

I think I will cut out all the joints in the pipe ( that's were the tin is) and just use the pipe and a zinc ww to add the cuso4, then add the joints back in. this mix will then be used to dilute another batch I have that I want to lower the sn/sb in. it's basically lyman #2 w/cu, when I add the plumbing pipe it will drop to 3.5% each, sb/ and sn. and the cu should stay the same.

[Traffer]

Traffer.
you can copper plate lead bullets, before the powder coat thing come along, home plating was starting to make a lot of sense to people and some pretty impressive contraptions were being built.
I bet about 20 minutes on U-tube will show you enough about it to build your own unit.
Yes I should have checked youtube. I few years ago I tried cleaning old coins with electrolysis. I ended up learning how to sliver plate things. Hah! It's actually pretty easy.

[Good Cheer]

Lead pipe can give you some funny stuff.
202034

[Good Cheer]

So far my copper experience is pretty limited, just working with a couple of spools of #2 babbitt wire. Still learning and will enjoy reading back through the thread. Thanks to all.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

good cheer, just what the heck is that?

[runfiverun]

calcium.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

oh, duh... now that you point it out to me, it should have been obvious, but I've never heard of it recrystallizing like that. interesting

[runfiverun]

oh yeah, you should see inside my water heater.
bonus is my pipes never leak.

[jsn]

I've been through both of these threads on Cu alloys and had a thought.

Could you take soft lead, add brass case trimming shavings, remove the zinc, then add linotype? It would solve a number of issues, with Sn not being removed from the alloy with the Zn, and still add Sb and Sn in a known alloy that adds hardness with the Cu/Pb?

I realize this is a gross simplification, but seems to solve most of the issues. The only open question would be ratios.......

[runfiverun]

I ain't tried brass [thought about it]
but initial testing was done with a higher tin solution alloy and tinned speaker wire cut into small pieces.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

the problem would be the high melting point of brass I think, even copper wont mix unless it is tinned or it iss in the form of copper sulfide, like Zepps is

[Oklahoma Rebel]

I have noticed that copper laced boolits have a harder, slicker "skin" to them, even if the BHN itself isn't very high, mine are around 13.5 for example. has anyone else noticed this? and do you think that it helps with ballistics, wether it be pressure-wise or accuracy?

[jsn]

Someone on one of these threads added brass case trimmings and said they were successful.

I'm looking for cheap, easy, and successful.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

a 2lb bottle of Zepps is only like 11.99-12.99 at home depo, aand that goes a long way. it is 25% copper, so you can figure out easily how much you want/ need in relation to the zinc and what you want your finished cu % to be

[Chev. William]

NOTE: Eutectic Lead-Tin Solder at ~63% Tin Will Disolve some Copper at SOLDERING temperatures. In Electronics Industry we went to a Semi eutectic Alloy Containing Silver to stop the removal of Copper Fine Line Traces on Modern Design Circuit Boards.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Oklahoma Rebel]

so, for a 3sb/3sn/.25-.35%cu alloy, what do you think would be the best choice for hollowpoint pins, short and fat, long and skinny, or other? I was thinking a hp shaped like a martini glass would work good ( short sect. of wide opening, then a longer "stem" of maybe .10 dia ending in a rounded point), if you can picture what I mean? and do you think this alloy should be heat treated or quenched for 2100fps?