Scheme to get a 357 Handi...

[Silvercreek Farmer]

I've never seen a used 357 Handi on the shelf and I don't quite want to give the $300 to order a new one. But I have noticed I can get a used NEF single shot shotgun a pawn shop for around $100 (seems like they have a lot of .410s). My plan would be to buy one of these shotguns and send it in to be fitted with a 357barrel with scope rail, but a few questions first:

Some of these are marked "Toppers" would they work, is that still a SB1 frame?

I don't plan to, but are there any problems with reaming to 357 max on SB1 frames?

I like the heavy contour of the 357 barrels on the rifles I see on line, but the NEF website does not have any details on contour. They only offer one barrel so can I assume it has the heavy contour?

What twist rate do the barrels come with? I think most folks have acceptable accuracy with 38 specials, so I'm guessing the twist rate is fast enough to stabilize subsonic.

Are 357 Handi's any harder on brass than usual? I though I read that somewhere...

Will the shotgun stock line up with the scope?

Anything else I should keep in mind?

[jmort]

You need an SB2 to do rifle/shotgn conversions. The shotguns are SB1 frames and shotgun only. I could have it bassackwards, but bottom line - rifle to shotgun ok and shotgun to rifle not ok

[Silvercreek Farmer]

You need an SB2 to do rifle/shotgn conversions. The shotguns are SB1 frames and shotgun only. I could have it bassackwards, but bottom line - rifle to shotgun ok and shotgun to rifle not ok

Thanks but the NEF website says the SB1 can take 357 and 44 mag.

[tacklebury]

The only light contour .357's I'm aware of are the Talo versions which are nice. 18-1/2" w/ iron sights. These are pretty rare, but do pop up occasionally. My .357 barrel came from the H&R Classifieds on GBO (Graybeard Outdoors) forum. I think I gave $115 for mine shipped. Barrels there don't last long though. ;) .357 and .44 are acceptable on an SB1 frame, but there are restrictions on how old of a frame can be fitted by the current regime. Most people prefer to start with an SB2 rifle, like the .45-70 or .30-30 and then add barrels to that frame. Then you have no restrictions on caliber. I personally have a 7 barrel swap system and a couple loose guns too. ;)

Buds does have a .357 for $273 which you could fit your own shotgun barrel to from GBO's if you can find one for sale:
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/52891/H%26R+Single+Shot+357+Rem.+Mag22%22+Blued+BarrelSc ope+BaseBla

or a .45-70 on an SB2 for $257 that will take any barrel you want added:
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/55050/H%26R+45-70+Government+Single+Shot22%22+Barrel+wRifle+Sight s

[jmort]

"Thanks but the NEF website says the SB1 can take 357 and 44 mag."

The manufacturer know what is what so you may be good to go. That would be nice.

[rockrat]

The SB1 is GTG for the 357mag, but if you decide later to rechamber to 357max, you really need an SB2 frame. Check the cost of the barrels, I think once you pay for shipping, fitting the barrel, test firing the barrel and shipping back, you might be close to $200.

[BAGTIC]

The 357 Maximum cartridge produces less thrust than the .44 Magnum. If the gun will handle the .44 Mag it will handle the .357 Maximum.

[Whiterabbit]

I have a 357 max on an SB1 and I USE IT.

So, 38sp and some 357, no problem on SB1 frame. The issue is the large firing pin. It's huge! the primers flow around the pin. Every 5-10 rounds, 38 +p or 357 (I dont shoot 38's), the pin sticks, there's too much flow. Not to worry, pull the hammer back and pull the trigger on the empty brass, the action unlocks just fine.

The thing with high pressure 357 max loads, is that the firing pin will puncture primers. If you retract the pin so the primres dont puncture, its not enough oomph to set up a 209 primer for shotgun or muzzleloading. So mine is barely protruding enough now to fire ALL shotgun and MZ rounds reliably, 100% of the time, bar none.

And approx. 30-50% of my 357 max loads will puncture the primer. One in 50 357 MAG loads will puncture the primer.

The symptom? nothing, really. 1 out of every 10 puncture rounds, the decapping pin on the press pushes the anvil through the hole, and its a pain to get the primer off. So really, 1 out of every 20-30 rounds fired have an issue but at the reloading bench only.

no issues on the shooting bench. group size is still small.

That's the price to be paid.

BTW, I discovered for my load, my bullet, my OAL, I can load into a 357 mag case. That's pretty awesome. 250 grain jacketed SP spitzer, fired at 1700 fps, using H110 and a 357 mag case. You can't ask for better than that!

Oh, also cut the barrel to 16 3/8". its an awesome gun.

[Whiterabbit]

bottom line, as a 357 max on a SB1 handi owner, IMO go cheap as you can. it's a GREAT gun and one I will use for rabbit hunting. But not worth investing in the finest material. Mines a shooter and a hunter, not a beauty queen. and it shows, both on the gun, and also on paper down range.

I treat it like "the single shot 22" in my safe.

[Whiterabbit]

other thing to keep in mind, is that I AM TOLD (read: I dont know if the following is true or not) that H&R made a few SB1's with a small firing pin. So, SB2 or SB1, you can go back to your LGS, open the action, pull the hammer, pull the trigger, and lay the hammer back down on the transfer bar. You can easily see the large or small firing pin. If it's small, I'm very sure you will be GTG for a 357 barrel reamed to max and loaded to MAX. SB1 or SB2. And if they are nothing but large firing pin SB2's, you'll still be OK. As long as you don't mind a punctured primer here or there.

[Jeff Michel]

Go the the H&R 1871 web sight, they set out the requirements very clearly. Once understood, give them a call and they will provide you with a repair number and you will at that time provide the information they need i.e. what type of barrel(s) you want. Make sure you have your serial number , it's part of the evaluation process. They charge 19.00 for shipping, 30.00 labor and 25.00 per barrel fitted. The shipping and labor is a one time charge for the then given service. If your plans include multiple barrels, it's best to get them all at once. they will charge you the same labor/shipping for one or for five. These charges are on top of the barrels which for most rifle calibers are 96.00-115.00. And of course, they nail you for sales tax (NY). They are very fast, about a ten day turn around. What surprised me was that Remington did the work.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Thanks for all the input guys, I wasn't aware of all the extra fees. When you consider that, I might as well buy a new one!

[Tatume]

I just had a barrel fitted at H&R. With all fees and return shipping, total cost was $140.

[MBTcustom]

Follow the Whiterabbit, LOL!

[Whiterabbit]

yep, the fees turned my multi barrel project from a $400 project to about $500.

[thegatman]

I have bought barrels from gunbroker. You have to have a rifle frame to put on a rifle barrel. NEF says that you can use a shotgun frame for 357 or 44. I have a shotgun frame for my muzzleloader but rifle frames for all rifle barrels.

[Whiterabbit]

I also have the inline barrel on the SB1. I use large rifle magnum primers to touch off those rounds. They don't puncture the primers, nor is there flow. Only on small primers is there flow. odd. But not odd enough to stop shooting high pressure 357 on the SB1

:)

[nanuk]

other thing to keep in mind, is that I AM TOLD (read: I dont know if the following is true or not) that H&R made a few SB1's with a small firing pin.


I have an SB1 with Small firing pin

I think all the pistol caliber rifles sold on SB1's are small pins, shotguns are large....

[Jeff H]

One for sale here in Maximum.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?174856-357-Max-handi-rifle-Xtra-410-barrel-F-S

[Silvercreek Farmer]

One for sale here in Maximum.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?174856-357-Max-handi-rifle-Xtra-410-barrel-F-S

Thanks but the link doesn't seem to work, wouldn't the thread still be there even if the item had sold?

[Goatwhiskers]

Just to clear the air, lot of talk about shotgun frames, rifle frames, SB1 and SB2. The older shotguns and the SB1 are made of cast iron which if it lets go does not stretch, it becomes shrapnel. The SB2 frame is made of investment cast steel which is one heck of a lot stronger and will stretch under excess loads, letting you know well ahead of time if you aren't paying attention to the more common overload signs. That's the reason for not putting rifle barrels on the older frames. Have a great CHRISTmas. GW

I'm not too fond of heavy loads in those light rifles anyway. It ain't velocity that kills, it's bullet placement.

[Jeff H]

Thanks but the link doesn't seem to work, wouldn't the thread still be there even if the item had sold?

Not necessarily. I believe you can now delete your thread if you have sold the item. I thought it was always that way because twice, when I bought something, the thread disappeared - very disconcerting.

It was three or four pages back earlier today when I looked. Just start scolling through the pages. That's how I found it. Not sure why the linl won't work because I copied it from the page when I was looking at it.

[Jeff H]

Just to clear the air, lot of talk about shotgun frames, rifle frames, SB1 and SB2. The older shotguns and the SB1 are made of cast iron which if it lets go does not stretch, it becomes shrapnel. The SB2 frame is made of investment cast steel which is one heck of a lot stronger and will stretch under excess loads, letting you know well ahead of time if you aren't paying attention to the more common overload signs. That's the reason for not putting rifle barrels on the older frames. Have a great CHRISTmas. GW

I'm not too fond of heavy loads in those light rifles anyway. It ain't velocity that kills, it's bullet placement.

I tried my 'Max mounted on an SB1 frame with the large firing pin (with light and then moderate loads) and problems popped up with primer flow even on moderate .357 MAG loads. Tried ONE especially thick-cupped SRP today on a moderate 'Maximum load and it locked the action up - primer flowed into the firing pin hole. Thats enough of THAT. My SB1 is definitely not suitable for this application so I will be moving the barrel to an SB2. Maybe the small firing pin-based SB1s are better, but what I found today is enough for me. The potential path for escaping gases looks to be pointed at my right eye.

[nanuk]

anyone know the hardest SRP that are not milspec?

I can't find any Nato type, but most others are available.

[Jeff H]

anyone know the hardest SRP that are not milspec?

I can't find any Nato type, but most others are available.

I cannot answer regarding the hardness of these, but the ones I referenced were Wolf Small Rifle "Magnum," which are supposedly "normal" strength but with a thicker cup to reduced slam-fires in ARs. Seemed like a good bet for the larger firing pin hole but it wasn't enough. I have fired all of ten of these Wolf primers and can't say much else about them.

The .357 Magnum loads I shot were primed with CCI standard small pistol primers. These flowed some but did not hang up the action.

[bmanis]

There was one at the last Birmingham Al gun show in 357 Max. It was in really good shape and already wearing a scope. The price was $250 if I remember correctly.

[Four-Sixty]

Site for the H&R Barrel Accessory Program.

http://www.hr1871.com/Support/accessoryProgram.asp

[drinks]

I had another barrel fitted last year, the total cost was over $165 and it took 7 weeks and I had to submit the paperwork twice.
I have no intention of doing more business with the bunch that owns Rem., Marlin, H&R and NEF now.
If you have some mechanical skills, buy a used barrel and do the minor fitting,(usually none) required to fit your frame.
I have some SB1/topper frames, but do not use cf rifle barrels on them.A friend has an SB1 with .45-70 barrel, but he loads to about 1100fps as he is not a recoil lover.
I have loaded my .45-70 NEF to 2300fps with a 320gr frgc, it is a bit stout but not bad, the 530gr postell at 1800fps does give me a headache after about 20 shots, my favorite is the 405gr hb at 1300fps, which is also the most accurate load I have found.

[Paul5388]

At one time, suggesting the use of a .357 Mag on a shotgun frame was enough to get banned from GBO (ask me how I know), even though H&R did that back in the 1950s. I think the .410 frame is smaller than the other frames, just like the 10 gauge isn't the same either.

The forged frame isn't a big deal, it's the firing pin size that makes all the difference. I think my long chambered .357 barrel is on a SB2 frame now, but it hasn't always been that way. The .357 Survivor I recently traded off had a much shorter chamber and wouldn't even take .360 DW brass. My current chamber will accept 1.50" brass, from the factory and I have shot 2.1" COAL rounds in it. Here's some of the loads I've shot, with a .44 Mag on the right and a .357 second from the right for comparison.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y121/Paul5388/360DWwith357and44Mag.jpg

This is a 100 yard target using a 250 gr Beartooth GC bullet and 8.0 gr of 800X (I don't remember the significance of the two holes toward the bottom, maybe moved the scope from there?)

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y121/Paul5388/360DW800X2_15OALBeartooth25011-15-0.jpg

If you throw another 50 yards to the target into the equation, you'll see a pretty good rainbow in the trajectory, even with 1250+ fps MV on the 250 gr bullet. It should aslo be noted I used .360 DW brass for those shots. 8.0 gr of 800X is probably too much for Mag brass.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Thought I would never find one, but I stopped in the pawn shop and they had a used one that the pawn had just expired on, they didn't even have it priced yet. It is a factory SB1 frame/357 barrel with a synthetic stock and a cheap Simmons scope on it. I did a little negotiation and it walked out the door with me...

[Paul5388]

If it is a normal SB1 frame, it won't have any grinding marks on the frame where the forearm socket fits. The serial number will tell the age. Older ones may be able to use longer brass than the newer ones, but I don't know that it's a real advantage.

[BAGTIC]

What kind of expansion do you get on game with that bullet at that velocity?

[BAGTIC]

H&R told me they were made of the same metal and the difference was in the heat treating.

[Paul5388]

It may be the same metal, but one (SB2) is forged and the other (SB1) is cast.

I haven't shot any critters with those heavy cast bullets, but I would imagine it'll just punch through, about like any other heavy cast bullet. On small critters, a 125 gr JHP, even in .38 Special, seems to get their attention more than a big heavy bullet. I have been totally unimpressed with 200 gr .44 Special WCs and 200 gr H&G #68 in .45 ACP on smaller critters.

[jason f]

If you buy a factory 357 mag or 44 mag handi they come with small pin sb1 receivers. Been there and dine it with one reamed to Max with full house 180 xtp loads. Never had a problem.

[mr_nice_guy228]

Just picked up my new H&R 357 Mag today. Took three paychecks to get it. Still got to save a couple checks for a good scope but when I do get one I will report back here on how the new production ones shoot.

[Texantothecore]

I would go with an sb2 receiver because you may wish add barrels to it over the years. Getting what amounts to a new rifle for 140 bucks would be quite nice. There is at least one member here has done exactly and he has maybe one dozen barrels in his gun cabinet. He is quite pleased with the result.

[Whiterabbit]

Mr nice guy.

Now go over to GBO and rent the chamber reamer and flatface crown tool for $20 and turn it into a shorty-maxi. Even if you only shoot 38 spl out of it, its nice to have the option!

I just took the scope off mine and sold it so I can buy some receiver sights. WAY too accurate for scope shooting at my distances.

[mr_nice_guy228]

Well I already decided not to go with the Max chamber, but I am still considering chopping it at 16.5" and recrowning, and I'm still debating on rifle sighting it.
I did pick up a $45 Barska so I could shoot it for now and it is EXTREMELY accurate with 158 FMJ loads I got from a commercial reloader. Haven't played with it much but I'm loving it already.
After I get sights or a GOOD scope I can just throw the Barska on rimfire duty, so it wasn't totally wasted money.

[Jack D]

For what it's worth, I have a .357 mag. Handi Rifle on the SB1 frame. The attached is taken directly from the NEF website and clearly show that the .357 mag. and the .44 mag are on SB1 frames. All other rifle calibers are on SB2 frames. When I reload for this rifle, I use small rifle primers which are stronger than small pistol primers. This can be shown by weighing each on a powder scale. The SR primers are noticeably heavier which says thicker metals to me. I have a thread that documents my Handi Rifle and the loads that I have developed for it here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?184063-357-Handi-Customized

61235

[Whiterabbit]

Well I already decided not to go with the Max chamber, but I am still considering chopping it at 16.5" and recrowning, and I'm still debating on rifle sighting it.
I did pick up a $45 Barska so I could shoot it for now and it is EXTREMELY accurate with 158 FMJ loads I got from a commercial reloader. Haven't played with it much but I'm loving it already.
After I get sights or a GOOD scope I can just throw the Barska on rimfire duty, so it wasn't totally wasted money.

My receiver sights came in today.

Still need to D&T the barrel, but should look something like this:

[Jack D]

I like it. Never seen one with the adjustable butt plate. Reminds me of an old Topper 20 ga. that I had years ago.....shortened to 18-1/8". That one was a real grouse getting machine.

[Denny303]

I'm a little late on this thread, but if I remember correctly info I saw on another builders forum awhile back the idea came up about using a H&R shotgun receiver and rebarreling it to a "rifled" caliber, and that was deemed a no-no by law and the NFA. something to think about and research. Denny

[Jack D]

And that is how rumors get started.

[Whiterabbit]

Better call Remington and tell them they are criminals.

[mr_nice_guy228]

My receiver sights came in today.

Still need to D&T the barrel, but should look something like this:

Looks good, Mind telling me what a good sight set to order would be so I can compare the prices and such? I'm not too great at figuring out sight heights and such.

[Whiterabbit]

I went with a williams fire sight front since its what comes with the handi muzzleloader barrel. There are three sizes, tall, medium, and short. I have one of each. Bought a tall and short, and the muzz has a medium. My muzzleloader shot too low, so the receiver sight gave me some good height right out of the box. So for a 24 inch barrel, the medium height front is the way to go. Matches well with the peep sight, which brownells will tell you how tall it is.

For the 357 I went with the tall front sight with the peep. I havent sighted in yet, so no indication yet on how it's gonna do.

What I do know is I wish the peep had two lit beads, it's hard to see in the dark. In the daytime its a slam dunk.

[mo_bio]

That is a nice one whiterabbit. I have 3 maxis, all on sb 1 frames. Made a shot to for my daughter and it is great. I love mine!

[Whiterabbit]

so, it looks like with the sight ALL the way up, shooting 38+p (my rabbit round), it's 1-2 inches high at 25, 4-5 inches high at 50 yards, and 2 inches low at 100 yards.

Might have been better if I put the medium height sight on there, not the high sight. .5" tall front sight would have done it.

[bstarling]

That is a nice one whiterabbit. I have 3 maxis, all on sb 1 frames. Made a shot to for my daughter and it is great. I love mine!

mo-bio, are those SB1's small or large firing pin?

Bill

[nanuk]

my SB1 in 357Maggie is a small pin

[Whiterabbit]

I just tested some cast zinc bullets loaded with 30 grains of h110 in the 357 max handi sb1 large firing pin.

I could see the muzzle flash in the daytime. sheesh.

no issues though. So much for an sb1 action being "weak"

Actually, this was right before shooting a couple rounds in the muzzleloader barrel using 120 grains of FFF. same frame.

[torpedoman]

http://www.mcace.com/shotguninserts.htm
save time and money just order a liner from here.