Smelting without a thermometer ???

[Mad Mucus]

G'day casters,

Ready to have a go at my first smelting(WWs).

I've had a Lyman thermometer on order for a while now but can't wait any longer... so how can I tell when the ideal melt temperature is reached before removing clips, fluxing etc. ?

Thanks

Mucus

[Harry Eales]

G'day casters,

Ready to have a go at my first smelting(WWs).

I've had a Lyman thermometer on order for a while now but can't wait any longer... so how can I tell when the ideal melt temperature is reached before removing clips, fluxing etc. ?

Thanks

Mucus


Marcus,

Once your lead or wheel weights have melted, give the lead (alloy) just a couple of minutes more heating, then skim off the dross, flux, skim again, and start casting.

Once your mould has warmed up to operating temperature and produces shiny un-wrinckled bullets, turn the heat down slightly. It doesn't take a lot of heat to maintain the temperature, once the lead/alloy has melted. If your bullets look crystaline on the surface your mixture is too hot.

A crystaline finish looks like the new galvanised finish on steel. Another guide to your metal being to hot, is that when you knock off the sprue, it takes with it a part of the bullet base, leaving a hollow. Don't throw these away, melt them down again and use a lower temperature in your melting pot.

I've cast lead bullets myself for over 45 years and have never owned a temperature gauge at all. Men have been casting bullets for centuries, temperature gauges have only been around for a few decades.

After a short time practicing, you will soon get the hang of it. Remember also that moulds can overheat, the guide to this, is the longer time it takes for the sprue to harden. If this happens, put the mould to one side for a few minutes to let it cool in the air. Never try and cool the mould using water, it will warp the blocks.

If you cast and the mould doesn't fill or you get the wrinkled bullets after casting over 20 bullets, it's likely your metal is not hot enough, so increase the heat a little, and try again.

Harry

[ron brooks]

The only problem not having a thermometer causing would be getting the pot too hot and causing any zinch weights too melt. i would suggest either not running wide open or being really sure of the weights you do smelt, if you are in doubt of some save them until you have a thermometer.

Ron

[BruceB]

"Never try and cool the mould using water, it will warp the blocks." -Harry

Now Harry, I've been water-cooling moulds for many years, and never warped a single one. These include aluminum and iron moulds of sizes up to the standard Lyman 4-cavity size.

Most of this cooling has involved just placing either the blocks or the sprue plate on a wet cloth pad, but on occasion I've also plunged an entire hot mould under water. All these moulds survived such treatment in perfect condition.

Have you ever warped a mould, yourself? I ask this because the majority of mine have come to me in used condition, and I have yet to see a warped set of blocks in at least a hundred moulds I either own or have owned. With the number of moulds I water-cool, I'm sure I would have seen this 'warping' by now, if it was a common occurrence.

My speed-casting method absolutely requires the use of a wet pad to cool sprues rapidly, and I wouldn't be doing it if I thought there was a likelihood of warping the mould. This might be one of the handloading taboos which everyone repeats, but which few have seen occurring in real life.

[felix]

It is weird to say the least. Warping comes from having the screws too tight with the handles. It seems the screws and handle steel twist and shout at a different temperature than the blocks, and this difference in temperature causes the mold to warp instead of the screws and handle metal because the mold material is softer. If both are allowed to move at their own rate upon heating, then it appears neither will hold a permanent stretch. ... felix

[montana_charlie]

I have seen one warped mould. It was one of the PGT loaners that went around the country for guys to try out. That mould would only touch on three corners.

I have always assumed that warping is caused by improper pre-heating while using a torch...especially a type of torch which uses fuel hotter than propane.
CM

[FISH4BUGS]

G'day casters,
Ready to have a go at my first smelting(WWs).
I've had a Lyman thermometer on order for a while now but can't wait any longer... so how can I tell when the ideal melt temperature is reached before removing clips, fluxing etc. ?
Thanks
Mucus
I just smelted another batch yesterday without a thermometer. The key is to get the heat just low enough to melt but not hot enough to melt zinc. Set your heat source (I use a 60,000 btu Hurricane Products propane burner and a large cast iron pot) just high enough to melt the lead. That will take some trial and error. The temp is not critical in smelting other than NOT too hot to melt the zinc.
Melt the first bunches in small batches until you build up a nice pool of molten lead. Add WW's in handfuls (say about 3 or 4 handfuls at a time - less if you pay attention closely) and stir them around. They will melt rather quickly, and skim immediately. If you are doing it right, you will get the zinc ones before they have a chance to melt. There ARE zinc ones.....unmarked ones at that! Keep the heat down to a minimum.....that is the trick.

[versifier]

Zinc weights are easy to spot - when you see clips floating free and there are still one or two weights that haven't melted, skim them all off. No big deal. Doing too many at a time and at too high a temperature can get you into trouble, but most of us are using Coleman stoves or turkey fryers that don't put out that much heat and relatively small (less than 2 gallon) cast iron posts or Dutch ovens. You can still process an awful lot of ww's in an afternoon, even with a small setup - not TONS, but hundreds of pounds. If you reach the point where you need to be processing tons, there are members here who have the smelting rigs to do it and will share their designs with you. But by that point, you will know and not need to ask. I generally clean out all of the trash (valve stems, cigarette butts, etc.) as I add them to the pot, (less smoke and obnoxious stench) and I pick out any obvious zinc weights then, but there are always a few that get by me and those I spot and skim as the good ones melt. It doesn't take long to get used to spotting them at the right time. I have never bothered with a thermometer when smelting or casting, never felt the need. I pay attention to what's going on during the smelting, not leave and do other things while the weights are melting down. When casting, the appearance of the boolits and how easily they are dropping from the mould tell me enough about how hot they are.

[RU shooter]

Not trying to hijack this thread ,But whats the deal with zinc ? Will something terribly bad happen when or if you melt one in with the regular lead WW Or will it just screw up the lead in the pot thats melted already and you have to discard that batch? What do you do if you melt one or three in your mix? can you skim it off or ? If you have alot of these zinc WW can you melt them seperately and cast them into bullets Sorry Boolits I'm still catching on!.........................RU

[mooman76]

Zink doesn't pour good bullets. It makes the lead not want to flow good so the bullets don't form out right and it only takes a little to screw up a batch!

[floodgate]

RU:

And yes, you can cast bullets from zinc, but they will be very light and hard; there was a lot of tinkering with "Kirksite" (a zinc alloy used for "pot metal" parts like carburetors) in the '40's by people chasing high-velocity for pistol and rifle rounds. Also, not only do traces of zinc prevent lead-based alloys from pouring and filling out freely, the opposite is also true: ANY trace of lead - even the use of a pot, ladle or mould that has EVER been used to cast lead - will "poison" zinc, and the bullets will eventually crumble into a crystalline powder; you have to "keep kosher" in your casting kitchen.

floodgate

[FISH4BUGS]

Zink doesn't pour good bullets. It makes the lead not want to flow good so the bullets don't form out right and it only takes a little to screw up a batch!

Just HOW MUCH will it take to screw up a batch? 1 zinc WW to 5 lbs of WW lead? 1 zinc WW to 10 lbs of WW lead? How much? Has anyone ACTUALLY figured this out?

[BOOM BOOM]

Hi,
It does not take very much Zn (ZINC) to screw up a batch of lead.
But it can be diluted to the point that the Pb (lead) can be used, but it takes a lot of diluting.
Also Zn boolits work fine.
Just keep Pb casting tools seperate from the Zn tools.

[hivoltfl]

OK guys I know about the zinc and everyone is right they dont melt the same as PB, no argument from me on that one, I have been reading in a lot of threads that some dont like WW with the sticky backs, or stick on type, whats the deal? Soft?
Stinky and smokey as the backing burns off?

Rick

[grumpy one]

Hey, there are no wimps on this site, to be put off by mere stink and smoke. No, stick-on WW are usually low-antimony alloy and hence putting them in the smelting mix gives a softer final alloy.

The stick-ons vary quite a bit in hardness. My practice is to only separate the softest of them, but I try to keep a consistent proportion of the harder stick-ons in each batch by holding some back and averaging them out. The ones I put aside and melt as "soft lead" average only 5.8 BHN - barely harder than pure lead.

[RSOJim]

Hi Guys, I have been casting for 25 or 30 years now without a thermometer. I ordered one last week. My bullet sizes are inconsistant due to temperature variations during a casting cycle. I can tell by running them thru a sizer. Some slip right thru without touching and others require more leverage on the 450 handle. Since me and my buddies decided to start shooting lead boolits are 300 yards my boolits must be more consistant in size and weight. I know there are other variables involved. I also use a propane torch to pre heat my molds sometimes if I am in hurry or have not had my prozac that day. thanks Jim

[Andy_P]

I've always smelted without a thermometer and skimmed off the non-lead (Zinc, Steel, Aluminum, etc.) from the surface, just after the melt went from "mush" (oatmeal-like consistency) to free-flowing liquid. Always has worked for me.

I tried an experiment tonight - with an empty pot, I tried to melt some Zinc to pour into an ingot. I had to crank the heat up high, and wait and wait, and finally, and barely got it to melt. A couple of wheelweights I thought were Zinc turned out to be something else.

Gave me more assurance that I'm not melting Zinc into my mix. Unless a WW says "Zn" on it and I notice it, I no longer try to sort them out beforehand. Just skim.

[georgeld]

I first started casting sinkers and boolits for the '06 about 1958 or before with my grandpa.
Never had a thermometer til two or three yrs ago.
Since then I've discovered IF I'll pay attention to the temps and stop casting when it gets to 700 and try not to let it get over 850 I get much better results than I've ever had before using it.

You bet, I'd suggest you get one and leave it in the melt while casting. Each time you add more ingots it'll drop. IF it gets to 700, stop casting til the temp gets back up around 800. Assume most preheat ingots on the side of the pot like I do. That helps keep the temps more even.

Haven't used ww's in yrs since someone has locked up the game around this area. Remaking ww's for resale, furnishes buckets and gives them a discount per pound. The more scrap they give him, the less it costs for new ww's. Damned hard to get any ww's here because of that.

I've also connected at the range for all the scrap lead I could possibly use too. Much easier this way.

I've gone to Lee six cavities for all my boolits. When they get too hot I quickly stab a full mold in and out of a bucket of water I've been dropping bullets into. Yeah, I wait til the sprues and slugs have hardened first. Never warped a mold yet. I don't hold them in the water, just fast stab to take the top 100 or so degree's off the mold's heat.

[RSOJim]

Hi All, tried out my new Lee two cavity mold yesterday. I had to work on it constantly. Finally dunked it in water and gave up. It didn't warp. Jim

[RSOJim]

I tried again yesterday morning casting with the lee 2 cavity 155 mold. First thing was to ping the mold halves so they didn't wobble in the handles. It started to close better. I also filed the bottom flat so I could lay the mold on the bench and get them to close without using 4 letter words. I took off the spru cutter and deburred it. Next I noticed that the top of the molds were not flat either. Using fine emery cloth, grit side up and laying flat on my bench, I rubbed the tops of the mold on the emery cloth until they were flat. Tried casting at 800 degrees (lyman thermometer) no good. Wrinkled bullets. I am using a lee 20 pounder. Cranked it up as high as it would go. Thermometer said 1000 degrees. I doubt it, but thats what it said. Smoked mold. Bullets better. Smoked again. Bullets now usable. It appears that this mold likes to be hot. Jim

[pjh421]

My bullet sizes are inconsistant due to temperature variations during a casting cycle. I can tell by running them thru a sizer. Some slip right thru without touching and others require more leverage on the 450 handle.

Jim are you sure this isn't due to alloy inconsistencies?

Paul

[calsite]

Has anyone tried an infared heat gun thermometer with their lead pots, I picked one up for $65.00 that goes from -50 to 1200 (f). The only thing I can of that would vary with using it would be the type of flux on top of your melt. That maybe a little cooler than your lead but I can't imagine by much.

[shooter575]

Jim are you sure this isn't due to alloy inconsistencies?

Paul

Casting tempo will make a big diffrence in finished OD. Do everything the same in the same time frame. Think boring production line work [for you ex shop rats]

[UweJ]

Hello everybody
We have a old fellow in our club which is using a piece of newspaper instead of a thermometer. He tears of a strip and dips it in the lead.If it comes out dark brown , just like a deer , without burning up it has the right temp.
I watched him work like that and he sure is pouring great boolits.

[jim4065]

Hello everybody
We have a old fellow in our club which is using a piece of newspaper instead of a thermometer. He tears of a strip and dips it in the lead.If it comes out dark brown , just like a deer , without burning up it has the right temp.
I watched him work like that and he sure is pouring great boolits.

Now that's a neat trick. Going to try the newspaper against the thermometer tomorrow when I get in some casting time. Could be a real time saver. :-D

[miestro_jerry]

I use the newspaper trick and some times brown paper from those cheap lunch bags.

Jerry

[brshooter]

Infrared thermometers do not work well on reflective surfaces, I have a Raytex (now Fluke) STProPlus a $400 meter. In it's user's manual, it is not recommended for use in measuring shiny surfaces and molten lead is like that. I just drop a piece of steel about an 1/8" thick and about 1" square in the molten lead and measure off the surface of that while it is floating on top of the lead.