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beezaur
12-20-2006, 01:37 AM
Hi Guys,

I would like to get back into casting for a few calibers: 7mm, .30 cal, .357 revolver, and .45 auto. I have some crap equipment and I want to completely retool with better. Quality is more important than economy. I want to do it right this time.

What kind of equipment and tools do I need? I think I will need some good references too. How are the Lyman books? What kind of a budget am I looking at?

Thanks for any help.

Scott

ANeat
12-20-2006, 02:09 AM
The low end would be something like a Lee setup. A lee pot the size you want. Some Lee molds. You can get some darn fine bullets doing that. A better pot would be a RCBS ProMelt or a Lyman 4/20. Lyman, RCBS, Ballisti-Cast and others make very nice iron molds that hold up better than the lee.

If you want to go all out get something like a Master Caster from Magma.

The lee setup could have you making bullets for under $100.00

The mid range setup would probably eat up most of $500.00

The Master Caster with molds would take $1000.00 for several calibers.


If I was starting over and shooting a lot of a specific caliber I would get a master caster but for multiple calibers hand casting can make a lot of bullets.

If youre going to size/lube instead if tumble lubing get a Star/Magma sizer

Adam

beezaur
12-20-2006, 02:32 AM
I don't want low end. I have low end, and it served its purpose well when I was in undergrad, eating ramen, and scrounging fishing weights and lost wheel weights to melt in the welded up pot that I used to heat on my camp stove. I have put in my time on tumble lube and home-made gas check seaters.

This time around I want to save up and buy really good stuff. I don't care if it takes a while to accumulate.

The handgun ammo I don't care too much about. But the rifle bullets I want to be the best that I can make. The rifles that will eat them are extremely accurate.

Scott

Buckshot
12-20-2006, 03:13 AM
...........beezaur, greetings.

"I think I will need some good references too. How are the Lyman books?"

The Lyman book is the easiest to obtain and is an excellent source. Wolff Publishing ("Rifle" & "Handloader" magazines) has "The Art of Bullet Casting" on CD. I haven't seen it but it should be a treasure. The NRA book by Col.Harrison is also good (out of print) but you can search online for copies.

"Quality is more important than economy. I want to do it right this time."

Ah! But I suspect 'Price is no Object', isn't the bottom line :-) I would rate ALL the lube sizer presses as excellent, as theyr'e well made and do the job they're supposed to do. But there is a varying degree of excellent at work here. Such as which is fastest, and which might remain accurate longer. Also maybe long term expense will be a factor.

You have to decide.

"What kind of equipment and tools do I need?"

Lube-sizer:

1) Lyman. Least expensive of the true Lube-Sizer presses to initially buy, and also least expensive to buy dies and top punches for. Probably the first to lose accuracy (in the ram), but how long does that take? Cheaper to replace whenever the time comes.

2) RCBS. Pretty much the same design as Lyman, and dies and top punches work in both. Possibly not as fast to wear out due to a bit longer bearing surface for the ram. A few bucks more to buy the press, plus dies and top punches cost more too. Maybe a half step up from the Lyman so far as the press goes. Dies and punches are basicly a comparative wash.

3)Saeco. Much spendier then the 2 above, ditto the dies and punches. Has a better means for ram alignment so should be the best of the 3 for longevity. Dies are substantially more expensive then the RCBS & Lyman dies. Dies do not interchange.

4) Star. The fastest lube-sizer as it lubes straight through the die and not an in and out operation that requires twice the hand motions. Most expensive one time. Dies substantially more expensive. I may be wrong but it's possible due to boolit design that one die with it's lube holes in a certain pattern, might not correctly lube a differing boolit design. Dies do not interchange.

5) Sizer only. Lee Push through. Very well done, very simple, very accurate way to size a slug, and fast. Does NOT apply lube but will crimp on GC's.

Furnaces:

1) Lee. For my money only the 20 lb pot counts. The 10 is as good but the capacity is just too small. The Lee may not hold it's temp as close, and it may have the habit of dripping easier for whatever reason. However it DOES melt lead and is the best bang for the buck as it costs 1/4 the price of the others.

2) & 3). Lyman and RCBS. Close in price and capacity. Much nicer looking units and they may do a better job at holding temps etc. Have not heard the dripping complaint from those who have these furnaces. Obviously very nice units.

4) Saeco. Do they still make one?

Moulds:

1) Lee. A good assortment of boolit designs. Casts a great slug, generally VERY round. Light and easy to handle and work with, and they're cheap. Cons are they are dainty and regardless the care in use you lavish upon them, they do have a freshness code which WILL go out of date :-). Do not plan on leaving any to your kids. The 6 cavity units are a magnitude better mould, cost more but they still have a life limitation.

2)Lyman. Good moulds, superb material and the design has been around since almost forever. If you and your buddies like a design, buy 2 because Lyman will discontinue it. Their 1 and 2 cavity blocks (IMHO) need updating (see RCBS & Saeco). With care you can leave these to your grandkids.

3) & 4) RCBS and Saeco. Superb materials, and much improved block designs. Heavier blocks enhanced alignment pins. So far as I'm concerned it's too tough to assign one over the other. Treat them with respect, and teach your grandkids the same and they can leave them to THEIR grandkids.

5) Non-Mainline and custom makers. No sense buying WC's, SWC's, and RN's from these guys. Usually outstanding quality (various block materials) superbly crafted and cost more then the above. More specialty oriented.

................Buckshot

montana_charlie
12-20-2006, 02:11 PM
The handgun ammo I don't care too much about. But the rifle bullets I want to be the best that I can make.
Then the most important area for you to spend your money is in the moulds.
Everything else is just 'accessories'.
CM

beezaur
12-20-2006, 02:45 PM
I just got off the phone with Magma about the Master Caster. Evidently NEI no longer makes compatible molds, but other brands can be converted by Magma. I get the impression this machine would help consistency a lot.

montana, you mentioned molds are the most important thing. Do you (or does anyone) have any particular recommendations for really good 7mm and .30 cal rifle molds?

If I try a mold with my old pot before having it converted for the Master Caster, is that reallya good measure of how the bullet will work for me? By that I mean, might I have quality problems ladling lead into the mold that would go away with the Master Caster?

I have not casted for maybe 12 years, and probably never had any good technique to start with.

Scott

sundog
12-20-2006, 02:46 PM
Beezaur, unless you're shooting BR, you don't need high dollar stuff machined down to a gnat's rear end. Find your boolits where you find, and that does NOT have to be high dollar moulds. Example, one of the better shooting boolits I have in a .308 is the Lee 312-185-1R. Yea, even suprised me. A $14 mould! And that was a load with surplus powder. Boolits that fit work better. It doesn't make any difference what kind of a mould they come out of. Get a good lubrisizer. If you're not going to shoot several gazzillion a month, the Ly and RCBS work just fine. Again, H&I dies that support getting you boolit to fit. As long as I'm pontificating, let me add one more thing. Try some Lee collet neck sizers. No, I'm NOT pushing Lee products, and I don't like many of them, but some of them just flat work as intended. I doubt very seriously that if I laid out the bucks for something like Forester dies that I would should any better in mil bolt matches, or for that matter, high power. In other words, if you're not going to put 5 bullets through a single hole raged hole at 200, the standard stuff gets the job done. Red, green, blue, orange, what ever works. As far as customer service goes, green (RCBS) gets the nod. They are also my favorite production mould - have I ever mentioned that before?

I dipper and ladle pour from both a RCBS flat bottom 10# pot on a coleman and a 20# electric Lee. I make some of the world's finest boolits (not brag - fact). Of course, that's only one ten-billionth of the world's opinion.... But the rest of'em ain't ashootin' MY boolits! sundog

beezaur
12-20-2006, 03:57 PM
Beezaur, unless you're shooting BR, you don't need high dollar stuff machined down to a gnat's rear end. . .

I usually am too picky :)

Maybe to put it in context a little, here is the gun that will eat the 7mms:
http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/6945/pronerifle280lm9.jpg

I'm not going to say how much it cost to have that built, but that is a U.S. Optics scope, and the stock is a Master Class original prone design bedded by Alex Sitman (the company owner) himself. It is .280 Ackley Improved. It has shot 5-shot, 2-1/2" groups with Berger VLD bullets at 575 yards.

Most guys around my area would poop a brick before paying as much as I did for one gun. But, if you look in their gun cabinet, you will see that they have a lot more money tied up in stock-standard rifles and scopes than I have in my two (2) long guns.

I really don't know anything about casting, so maybe the expense is unnecessary. But in my other purchases, I have never regretted waiting and buying the best. It usually ends up being cheaper because I olny buy one expensive thing instead of a bunch of cheaper things. That's the main reason I go for the high end stuff right off.

Scott

Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting (http://imageshack.us)

felix
12-20-2006, 04:16 PM
Scott, I am a former BR person, and I appreciate your endeavors as they were exactly mine as well. Times have changed, though, for me because my weather reading skills have finally come home to roost in concrete. Not really a wall hanger to talk about, except here to you. Fun in cast shooting depends more on an experimental attitude. That I have in abundance. Your 7mm shown in your picture I bet has a 9 twist or faster to shoot those VLDs that well at 600. You will find a great challenge in getting that same gun to reproduce that performance with any kind of cast with your PRESENT attitude. One or both systems will have to change. ... felix

45 2.1
12-20-2006, 04:16 PM
I usually am too picky :)

Maybe to put it in context a little, here is the gun that will eat the 7mms:
http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/6945/pronerifle280lm9.jpg



Plan on getting a 160 gr. to 170 gr. custom cut mold dependent on your rifles twist. Take a lead throat slug and send it to someone who will give you a boolit to fit that slug. If your rifle does that, you want a fitted boolit to that barrel.

beezaur
12-20-2006, 04:27 PM
Plan on getting a 160 gr. to 170 gr. custom cut mold dependent on your rifles twist. Take a lead throat slug and send it to someone who will give you a boolit to fit that slug. If your rifle does that, you want a fitted boolit to that barrel.

It is a 1:9 twist Broughton 5C (canted lands) barrel 31" long.

How do I get a lead slug done? There is one gunsmith locally here, and I don't know him well enough. I sent the rifle to the east coast for the work (I am in western WA), so the same smith who did the metalwork is not an option. Is that something I reasonably can do myself?

Any suggestions for a mold maker?

Scott

P.S. I realize it is not the best rifle for cast bullets, but it is an absolute joy to shoot. The thing that I hate though is that the barrel will only be good for possibly up to 2500 rounds at full power. My goal with casting is to be able to shoot the rifle a lot more than that. My plan is to get something going around 1050 fps, i.e., subsonic with a max range of wherever my scope bottoms out (around -50 MOA). My ballistics software says that is around 300-350 yards.

I do like to tinker, but when it gets to the point that I am losing most of my trigger time for messing with bullets, it stops being fun. I would much rather get out there and watch my bullets blow around in the wind at range.

wills
12-20-2006, 04:39 PM
How do I get a lead slug done? Is that something I reasonably can do myself?

Any suggestions for a mold maker?

Scott

With pictures
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSlug.htm

Waage melters are known for their consistency, but are not the most expensive you can find.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=91633&postcount=8

Buckshot
12-25-2006, 12:57 PM
..............beezaur, here are a couple targets shot from a Brazilian M98/08 and a 1897 Rem RB, both in 7x57. Both rifles are 'as issued' complete with iron sights and military triggers.

http://www.fototime.com/51033A5247B82E1/standard.jpg

Both fired from the Mauser. Top group is the RCBS 7mm-168. Bottom is the Lyman 150gr Loverin (which Lyman has apparently recently discontinued)

http://www.fototime.com/F3E012F96D480D9/standard.jpg

These two targets were fired from the 1897 Rem RB with the Lyman boolit. Velcities were comparable.

For both rifles the distance was 50 yards. The powder charge was a full case of surplus WC872 ball (20mm cannon powder). Boolits were visually inspected and lube-sized .285". Powder charges were thrown. R-P cases, WW primers. Nothing match prepped or weighed.

At 100 yards they may have flown all over, as I've never shot them at this speed and at that distance before. My 54 year old eyes and old open military sights just can't do it justice. Both these rifles have the standard twist, which I believe is 9.8".

As 45 2.1 suggested, if you have a mould cut to drop a boolit to fit your rifle, a good alloy and lube combination, a stringent visual inspection, scaling, fireformed neck sized cases, I'm pretty sure your rifle MIGHT do as well as my 100 year old wood stocked military's did :-)

...............Buckshot

cbrick
01-03-2007, 03:17 AM
beezaur,

A rifle like that I am sure has a match chamber. I shoot cast in several custom match chambered XP-100's and the first thing I ran into was bullet fit in the tight chambers. My avatar is the SAECO # 264 140 gr for my XP 6.5 BR. My XP's shoot their best groups when the bullet base is left in the NK and not seated deep into the case. I cannot do this with the SAECO because of throat diameter. Tight match chambers can and do create a bit of a problem for cast but not one that cannot be overcome. Its even possible for the twist rate to cause problems depending on BHN. I am eagerly awaiting Dan at Mountain Molds to get his shop up and running.

I very highly second the idea of getting a mould made for "that gun". If you really want to shoot cast and can afford a rifle like that you can afford to get a bullet that fits "properly" in it and shoots groups that nobody will believe was made by cast. Tip on higher velocity cast and having a mould made, lot's and lot's of bearing surface and very little un-supported nose.

The next point is that Felix is far more right than you could know at this point. Cast can be shot very successfully in that rifle but without the experimenters (as Felix called it) attitude you could be in for a hard struggle, disappointment and probably give up. You'll get into alloys, BHN's, sizing differences and a lot more. If your not willing to do the homework you'll be disappointed, if you do you'll feel more satifaction than you ever have at the range cause ya made em yourself.

Good luck and good shooting, keep us informed.

Rick