Help to Fire Form 35 Whelen to 35 Whelen AI?

[JesterGrin_1]

Yes I did a search lol.

Can anyone give me some pointers on doing this such as powder charges and how exactly to go about this?

As really I would rather not waste BOOLITS or Bullets just to Fire Form the Brass.

[runfiverun]

full power load in the regular case.
if you are using remington brass one load will do. if winchester it'll probably take two even at
50-k psi.
you can either get the bullet to just touch the rifling [not how i like to do it]
or make a false shoulder at the neck junction to [sorta kinda] headspace on to hold everything square and kinda tight in the chamber.
you neck the case up then back down to 35 cal, just enough down the neck to chamber the round.
this holds everything square in the chamber for more uniform brass expansion.
and is easier on the brass as it flows forward/outward to fill out the improved chambering.

or you could just fire the brass in the chamber it will fire form, but not expand evenly and may not fireform completley.

[elk hunter]

As I understand it most if not all AI chambers head space at the same point on the case as the parent case so a standard loaded round can be fired and the case will form to the new chamber. I have done that with the AI 30-06 and it worked fine.

I fire form most cases after annealing the neck/shoulder area of the parent case. I prime and then depending on the case and bore size load from eight to thirteen grains of a Bullseye or Unique in the case, I used ten grains of Bullseye to form some 41 Swiss recently, insert a quarter of a square of bathroom tissue in the case and seat it firmly on the powder charge then fill the case to the middle of the neck with corn meal and then top it off with a wax plug. The rounds are then fired at the range. Beware of the muzzle blast as it is quite destructive at close range. The cases are then trimmed and the mouths squared up and are ready for use.

[runfiverun]

a 20* angle and a 40* angle don't share too many datum points.

[cbrick]

Whether you use the method R5R suggested or seat the bullet long to contact the rifling snug when the action is closed it is imperative that the case be held in place and NOT be allowed to move forward with the firing pin strike. If the case does move forward when firing they will not all move the same amount and the result is a different headspace (shoulder in a different place) on each piece of brass.

Rick

[JesterGrin_1]

I do not have the rifle back in my hands as of yet. Just trying to get things straight before I do in I hope a couple of months.

But from what I have read and understand is that Ackley says that a standard 35 Whelen case should have a .oo4 interference fit for head space. So if it is set up with the .004 interference fit should that not take care of the problem of case movement?

[swheeler]

If it is chambered correctly, the GO gage of the parent cartridge becomes the NO GO of the AI round(the way Parker intended it to be) Therefore a standard cartridge does have a slight interference fit and can be fired in the AI chamber with no other consideration. This was POA's AI cartridges claim to fame, FORGOT OR LOST YOUR AI HANDLOADS, JUST BUY A BOX OF FACTORY LOADS AND SHOOT THEM.

[littlejack]

JesterGrin1:
I bought an Egyptian mauser(8mm) a few years ago, that I had sporterized. I had the gunsmith rechamber it to 8mm-06 AI.
When he needed, ammunition to work on the magazine and feed function, he shot factory 30-06 amunition in the rifle and his
brass was made. I had bought dies from RCBS, so he used the dies to size and seat .323 bullets and made dummy rounds to
work with.
Now, to make my brass I use different .323 jacketed bullets that I have to bust rocks. I load them with my favorite load of IMR 4064. I use once fired R-P 30-06 brass. After fireforming, I anneal the brass, and load my hunting loads.
The headspace datum line on the 30-06 and the 8mm-06 AI are the same. With that being said, This was a one time rechamber
for a certain rifle by the gunsmith that shot and fireformed his own brass.
I would not venture to say what exactly you have for interferance, I am sure you can get the
information from your gunsmith though.
If you resize 30-06 brass with your AI dies, just create a "false" shoulder to headspace on when you close the bolt and you will be fine.
Or, you can just do as swheeler said, and fireform factory 35 Whelen rounds.
Reguards
Jack

[runfiverun]

if the barell was pulled and threads were cut off before the rechamber that's how it should work.
not everybody understood how parker developed the system to work.
i spent some time with him before he closed up shop when i was in high school.
the idea was to just fireform regular factory rounds in his chambers,but not every gunsmith was willing to do that extra work.
the real deal was about the x57 case and trying to get that modified round made a factory round where the higher performance through both case capacity and higher pressure could really be realized.
just about all the others were because someone wanted one.

[JesterGrin_1]

if the barell was pulled and threads were cut off before the rechamber that's how it should work.

Yes the Barrel was pulled and removed about 2 threads worth for a New Chamber cut to the 35 Whelen AI. And the Smith Dangerous Dan was aware of the .004 crush.

So what I really did wish to know was a method that I can use to use New 35 Whelen brass and Fire Form them without the use of a Bullet as even if I cast them or they are store purchased J bullets they are not cheap.

[littlejack]

Drag out the Unique and corn meal.
With that being said, I do not think that one can achieve a FULL fireform by using just the unique and corn meal, or any other
light load. I believe that it will take a full pressure load to achieve ALL of the fireforming desired, especially if one is to be
shooting for group with good fitting cases.
Lets see if that comment causes discussion? LOL.
Jack

[littlejack]

runfiverun:
It is a pleasure sir to be in the company of such a person that has been tutored by such a prominant smith from our past.
I would have give a lot to be able to just look in and learn from Mr. Ackley, or one of my local fine gunsmiths.
It seems that they see no need in passing on the trade. Mabe I should just ask one of them to do so??????
Anyway, sir, thank you for your expierienced input.
Jack

[brstevns]

Not the same cal. but my Father has a .257 IMP on a Mauser action built by Shaw. He was told by them just to fire standard factory .257 Roberts in it to get brass. That is what he has been doing for years. Also made some by loading regular .257 brass with 6.0 gr of Unique filling case to bottom of neck with grits, then push the case into a bar of Ivory soap to keep every thing in place. Load by hand and fire holding rifle upward. Be came as the little piece of soap and grits come out at a dangerous FPS. Most times one firing is all that is needed. Then anneal neck area before loading.

[fouronesix]

But from what I have read and understand is that Ackley says that a standard 35 Whelen case should have a .oo4 interference fit for head space. So if it is set up with the .004 interference fit should that not take care of the problem of case movement?

Short answer- NO. The shallow angle, small shoulder on the 35 Whelen is not enough to prevent shoulder over run, datum interference or not.
Been there, done that from 35 Whelen to 35 Whelen AI. Heed the advice of those saying to fire form so positive contact is maintained between cartridge head and bolt face. If that is not done the primer impulse will cause the case to over run the shoulder and variable headspace in the fire formed cases will result. You need to use a load that produces at least 30-35K psi pressure to insure good fire form.

Or maybe as most do, just use a regular full pressure cast or Jbullet load of your choosing and fire. The cases will come out looking fine and will be headspaced on the shoulder...BUT, that first shot will induce some stretch and thinning of the case just forward of the web. Won't matter except it may take a few reloadings out of the life expectancy of the case.

[HangFireW8]

Fouronesix gives good advice. You need high and sustained pressure for a good fireform. To avoid thinned webs simply lightly oil the neck and shoulder. This will allow the blown-out shoulder to draw brass from there, not the web.

HF

[runfiverun]

cliff you have to think about it like a case that has been resized too much giving you excessive headspace..
i'm sticking with what i said above.

the full power load affects the brass by stretching the brass properly and aligning the molecular level of it all at one time.
buy some cheap pistol bullets if you have to, but use some good pressure and hold the case as level and tight as possible.

[leftiye]

Not the same cal. but my Father has a .257 IMP on a Mauser action built by Shaw. He was told by them just to fire standard factory .257 Roberts in it to get brass. That is what he has been doing for years. Also made some by loading regular .257 brass with 6.0 gr of Unique filling case to bottom of neck with grits, then push the case into a bar of Ivory soap to keep every thing in place. Load by hand and fire holding rifle upward. Be came as the little piece of soap and grits come out at a dangerous FPS. Most times one firing is all that is needed. Then anneal neck area before loading.

Ackley designed most(if not all) of his "improved" cases to fireform from standard cartridges. He said it was so if you ran out of improved cartridges you could simply buy some factory cartridges and use them. (Errr,,, put the boolit into the rifling?)

[curator]

I fire-form my .35 Whelen AI starting with new brass and using a 250 grain cast boolit seated far enough out to make closing the bolt a bit stiff. I also lightly oil the case neck and shoulder area just to be safe. I load about 30-35 grains of IMR4895. Since I load only cast and neck size with the Lee Collet die, cases last pretty much forever. Shooting factory ammo to fire-form left cases with enough head-stretch to show signs of incipient separation after 3 or four more reloadings.

[runfiverun]

all good information and suggestions here.