S.e.e. Big kaboom

[PULSARNC]

Long time reader, sometimes poster under another handle[which I cannot get to login with ] I have read with interest folks success with reduced speed loads for practice /small game shooting and decided to join the fun .I have been reloading since 1995 but casting for only about 2 years .So......I jumped right in ,a LEE 180 grain mold in 30-06 was obtained and I fired up the pot.Wheelweights with some tin sweetner and I had boolitts.Lubed with liquid alox and ran thru a Lee .309 sizer and seated the gaschecks.Brass was my own, once fired mixed headstamp full length resized and primed with CCI large rifle primers .
Much research was done as to powder choices.From articles in Handloder and Rifle I leaned towards accurate powder #5744.Checking several popular websites and my own stash of reloading manuals and western powders website sealed the deal
I settled on a ladder of 26 grains working up in 1 grain increments to 30 grains Loads were assembled one at a time on an RCBS rockchucker. Each powder charge was hand thrown and weighed .I loaded six rounds of each charge careful to keep them labeled and separated.Time to hit the range , sunny Sunday afternoon mid Sept .
Starting with the 26 grainers velocity as measured on my chronograph was mimmicing the books but lousy groups.AS I progressed up the ladder things began to look more promising .When I hit the 29 grain loads it was eureka moment ! First 3 shots clustered in about an inch,so I pulled the trigger on shot #4
KABOOM when i regained my bearings the gun was in pieces on the bench ,the scope was laying on the ground and I was bleeding in many places on m,y face in addition to have blurred vision in my right eye . A trip to the local ER and a little first aid and I was almost as good as new.So now begins the task of *** happened .
An exam of the rifle shows the receiver split down its long axis on both sides with the barrel partially blown out of the receiver ring.The bolt had to be hammered open thank GOD the locking lugs held or I might not be writing this. .It appears to be brass plated with vaporized brass . Only a small fragment of the case head was recovered .The body of the case appears to be "welded" in the chamber .Checking the barrel shows no evidence of a bore obstruction .ALL the force appears to have been directed downward into the magazine area where it blew out the side of the stock and the bottom of the magazine.Forgot to mention the rifle was a weatherby vanguard 30-06 I have owned for about 20 years
A well known local gunsmith examined the gun and concurred there was no barrel obstruction and he termed it a catastrophic detonation.He stated it would have taken in excess of 200,000psi to achieve the amount of damage seen.I contacted Handloader magazine and Western powders and attempted to contact Weatherby.Western asked for samples of the cases powder etc for testing which I gladly sent them Handloader requested to examine the barrel and some of the loads which I sent them .western obviously was concerned due to the fact it was their powder I was using .Handloader was gracious beyond belief as they had no direct involvement i n the incident.
The final opinion was that I had suffered a S.E.E. Weatherby despite numerous communications from my end has chosen not to respond.So my questions to the group is Has anyone else had any problems of this nature using this powder and similar loads .Anyone have any different ideas ? I am open to all suggestions at this point and more than willing to answer any and all questions . I readily admit that maybe i screwed up don't think I did but cannot say for certain .I tried to post this last nite with pics but lost it when I tried to attach pics so I will post this and then try to separately post the pics . i apologize for the length but it took a bit of space to tell the story

[PULSARNC]

56291562925629356294562955629656297

[rsrocket1]

You said it was once fired cases of mixed headstamped. You kept multiple brands of cases that you've never reloaded?
Assuming that is true, you re-sized, did you trim to length? If the neck gets pinched in the throad or leade (http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/internal), it could drive the pressure through the roof. You also checked to ensure the bullets were not seated into the rifling right?

Glad you are still in one piece.

[Bwana]

That's what a double charge looks like.

[Larry Gibson]

That's what a double charge looks like.


+1. It is all to easy to get 50+ gr 5744 in an '06.

"Each powder charge was hand thrown and weighed ."

And then dumped into cases already standing in a loading block? If so it is very easy to not move the funnel and double charge. Glad you are relatively ok.....to bad about the rifle........

Larry Gibson

[PULSARNC]

When I said mixed I should have explained that a bit more . The majority of the cases were federal but I did not have enough of them to do the whole 30 rounds so part of the loads were put up in winchester brass.If I remember correctly all of the 29 grain loads were federal.
Yes you can get a double charge of 5744 in a 30-06 case but according to my gunsmith his opinion was it may have seized the action but likely would not have blown it up.
My process was as follows i am seated at my bench ,the uncharged cases are to my right ,in front of me are the scales and powder to my left are the reloading blocks.I threw the charge weighed it and picked up an empty case bringing it to the center and dumping in the powder then placeing it to my left in the block .repeat as necessary till i have the 6 loads charged .These were then completed and then bagged and labeled before going to the next charge level.Did I get distracted and screw up and double charge a case sure it is possible heck I may even have undercharged a case by mistake .that is the whole point I do not know what happened so i am searching for possible answers . trust me I am past the point where i am too proud or stupid to admit that I can screwup with the best of em. I readily admit I do not know it all

[Mooseman]

29 grains is a reduced charge for cast and below max listed so something happened , but what , I am not sure of. It does resemble a double charge of over 80,000 PSI because of the dual splits in the receiver.

[swheeler]

Glad you are OK, would be having the eyes looked at regularly for a while though. The only ones that know what happened are you and your rifle, and sounds like only your rifle knows for sure. I can only speculate what happened with this "4227 speed" powder, so I will stop there. I can tell you I have shot 5744 in 300 RUM at approx 22% load density with cast and no problems, your load was about 35% density. Did you have delayed ignition on the first 3 shots, or did you notice. I guess the only advice I can give you is always KNOW what was in the load, know not I think and you will live long and prosper. If I may ask what is your usual user name?

[sundog]

Just recently received notice, w/pics, of an 03A3 blow up here in OK using 5744, at a mil bolt match. Shooter claims it was a double charge, and he was very fortunate that he did not get injured.

5744 is different than other powders due to nitroglycerine content and caution is advised. BUT, it works very well within it's own realm.

If loaded properly it's purdy good stuff. I have a pet .308 load with cast, but I am rethinking things...

[PULSARNC]

I had made a very few posts a longtime ago under the user name pulsar but the system refuses to recognize my logins so I rejoined .Even the password recovery did not work so I am not sure what was wrong .

[JIMinPHX]

That's what a double charge looks like.

That was my first thought too.

When I hand weigh charges, I usually fill a loading block with charged cases, then look inside the cases with a flashlight to be sure that nothing looks grossly overcharged before I start to seat boolits.

[rsrocket1]

I never leave a charged case open. It goes from the "primed" container, to the powder drop, and immediately gets a bullet seated into it.

[root]

Glad your OK

Doesn't look like anything duct tape can't fix......

weatherby is a pretty tough gun as you have just show.

Regis I'm gonna go with the audience and pick double charge.

You may not be a millionaire but you sure won the lottery on that one by walking away in one piece.

Again, glad you are alright.

And let this be a lesson.

With my luck I would have killed someone 30 ft. away with a piece of the stock and been blind and deaf too boot.

[303Guy]

My system is to never pick up a case from the charged tray without first shining a light down it and looking.

Considering a double charge, that particular powder may be exhibiting an exponential pressure increase which at double charge could well be at an extreme pressure. But not a detonation. A detonation would have shattered the action. I tested a powder once - double base - which showed a reasonable velocity curve against powder charge which as it neared the top end exhibited a somewhat sudden increase in velocity with signs of high pressure.

[stocker]

I have used 5744 reduced all the way to 8 grains in a 348 case for round ball. I conferred with the manufacturer about reducing the powder and was assured no problem would arise. I agree with double charge or combined case problem rather then an SEE.

[uscra112]

Glad you're in one piece! Shame to lose that rifle.

There's been volumes of discussion about S.E.E. in the forum here. The only time anybody's been able to reproduce it in a lab, it took a slow powder in a large case and a rifle with some freebore, plus a long j-wart bullet, (6.5mm IIRC). Primer pushes bullet into throat but powder does not ignite immediately. When the powder does ignite the bullet is a bore obstruction. Larry Gibson found the lab report, and it's still here somewhere. A .30-06, a cast boolit, and 5744 doesn't look like a recipe for a true S.E.E. Sure looks like a double charge from here, since you were weighing charges. I have used a lot of 5744, and the prospect of an overcharge of it has always haunted me. Haunts me even more when I see something like this on the forum. I even weigh my finished cartridges now. Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?

[Mooseman]

Weatherby Vanguard receivers are made from forged Steel and the barrels are Cold forged. I think the 200,000 PSI is incorrect as that steel may stand 75,000 psi Max. which is 20% to 25% over a normal max High pressure load for a safety factor and 80,000+ PSI would be catastrophic on most gun alloys used. A lot depends on how many rounds have been fired and how many stress cracks may have been present as well. If A SEE event is possible with that powder , I would not use it Personally , but that would be for the Powder engineers to decide. Is there enough energy in 29 grains to produce a mass amount of Gasses and a Huge pressure spike in a Flashover event ? I want to say I doubt it but only the powder engineers can say.
Glad you are not in worse shape. I cringe at some of the guys on here that push the envelope of safety with their loads.

Rich

[762 shooter]

+1 to Post #11

762

[rintinglen]

+1 on the weighing finished cartridges. Those neat cheap electric scales that Midway sells work very well for this purpose. It takes only a few minutes to weigh a box of 50 cartridges, and if any are out of line, they don't get to play--I'd rather pull a boolit from a case than a piece of bolt from my forehead.

[Jim]

Plus 1 to post number 12.

[44man]

Hard to say if it was a double load or S.E.E.
S.E.E. can happen with a boolit with no case tension popping out from the primer before ignition and it does not matter what powder.
What bothers me is that the brass melted and plated parts so the pressure was extreme, not just 80,000 psi. Even a full S.E.E event does not melt brass like that. Many rifles survive S.E.E. with no damage. I wonder how much pressure a double charge of 5744 will create?
Long ago Magnum Research did a blow up test with the Lone Eagle. They kept increasing pressure until the gun locked up. They had to cut and section the gun. They found the brass had melted and fused to the steel like braze. I don't remember the pressure readings but they were extreme, the gun did not blow up.
How much pressure is needed to melt brass?
It is a mystery.

[captaint]

I'm with "rocket" here. I like to (and DO) put powder in case and take a quick look inside, mainly to assure against a short charge. Boolit goes in the case immediately and gets seated. I'm not a real high volume shooter, so the "one at a time" deal doesn't bother me. I got (made) a double charge 30 years ago using the blocks. Haven't done it in batch mode since. I assume the other cases looked completely OK ?? I have to wonder about that case neck...... Do you know how roomy your chamber is in the neck area ?? Really glad you're mostly OK. Be safe... Mike

[cbrick]

Yikes. Wonderful that you weren't more seriously injured.

Last rifle I saw that blew up like that was from reloaded ammo purchased at a gun show. After the guy left in an ambulance a gunsmith that was at the range when this happened broke apart some of the remaining rounds. It was a triplex load, three different powders in each case. :veryconfu Not saying the OP did this, just the last rifle I saw blow up like that.

From everything I've ever read about SEE I wouldn't think 5744 is a slow enough powder to cause a true SEE but who knows. A double charge does sound most likely. For years I reloaded the same way, charge all the cases putting them in a loading block & then going back and seating the bullet. I worried doing this about the possibility of a double charged case and several years ago I switched to charging a case and while it is still in my hand seating the bullet & then placing it in the MTM ammo box, if needed I go back & crimp.

Posts like this are an excellent reminder of what can happen with just a brief moment of less than 100% attention to what were doing. Thanks for posting it.

Rick

[Tatume]

My process was as follows i am seated at my bench ,the uncharged cases are to my right ,in front of me are the scales and powder to my left are the reloading blocks.I threw the charge weighed it and picked up an empty case bringing it to the center and dumping in the powder then placeing it to my left in the block .repeat as necessary till i have the 6 loads charged .These were then completed and then bagged and labeled before going to the next charge level.

A critical step is missing from your procedure. Before seating bullets you should use a flashlight to illuminate the interior of each case and inspect the powder level. An over charge or under charge will be readily apparent. It can happen to the best of us.

Take care, Tom

[dnepr]

I am another one who seats the bullet right after the powder charge goes in . The cases are primed and in the loading block case mouth down , I flip them right side up , charge with powder and seat the boolit. If the case is a pain to have in the loading block upside down (22hornet comes to mind) the case gets turned upside down before it gets charged . This has become my technique and it works for me.

[Chicken Thief]

So QL says:
29gr 5744 = @29500psi
58gr 5744 = @149500psi

150kpsi would do that to a rifle!

[MT Gianni]

I am glad that you are OK. When I charged cases in a block I would keep them inverted until I charged one with powder. Never pick one up that isn't upside down.

[243winxb]

Googe it, see what pops up. "weatherby vanguard recall" Also the HOWA 1500, may be the same rifle??

[Larry Gibson]

"I threw the charge weighed it and picked up an empty case bringing it to the center and dumping in the powder then placeing it to my left in the block "

Pretty much the same procedure I used to follow. Then when loading 5744 in 45-70 one day I was in a hurry and did not visually check the powder level. Sure enough a charge had "bridged" in the powder thrower dumping a small charge in one case and almost a double charge in another. I blew/ruined a nice trapdoor action and barrel that day.

If you did not have a really "squib load" with a previously fired round of that load I suggest pulling the remaining bullets and weighing the powder. If you find one with a reduced load in one that will tell the tale.

Larry Gibson

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Glad you were not hurt real bad, you easily could have been.
I had to re-read your OP about your procedure, my first thought
was you where dumping form the hopper right into the case and the powder
likely bridged in the drop tube. causing a over charge.
That's not what you said though, so that wasn't it.
I'd also have to guess a double charge. I load in blocks, then seat after charging all the brass.
BUT, when I'm done, I use the flashlight test as a step one, & then I have some wooden sticks,
like corn dogs come on, I use them to drop into the charged brass, pencil line across the case mouth
and then double & triple check each one using my "dip stick"
I shoot 20 grains of 5744 in my Argie, a visual check is not good enough for me

[possom813]

First, what does "S.E.E." stand for?

Second, I'm sorry about your misfortune, I've only seen that one other time, anything like that, and it was on a Winchester Model 70 in .270. I don't know much about what the load was or anything else, I was just the guy at the range that had a cell phone to call 911. We looked at the rifle and it looked a lot like that, with a lot of random pieces laying around. The range president spoke about it in our annual meeting and said the fellow was doing well, and that was all I've heard of it.

Third, just a thought for avoiding this, and it could be my OCD kicking in when loading(at least that's what everyone calls it). I use 2 load blocks for every reload session, no matter if it's .38 or .30-06.

This is my rifle brass prep and loading

I start with my shiny piece of primed brass straight from the tumbler(or shelf bag)

A roll across the lube pad, or pan(I roll rifle brass, and use the spray lube on pistol brass, but this is for my rifle brass), and into block 1

Then into the F.L. sizer and deprimed and put into block 2

Next up is the case trimmer, pulled from block 2, trimmed, primer pocket cleaned, neck deburred and put back into block 1

Then the anneal, using a metal rod into the case neck and rotated over a propane torch for about 3-4 seconds, and now dropped into a bucket of water(I was letting them air cool up until I was corrected on that)

After completing the anneal and water drop, I lay the cases on one of my cookie/lube sheets with a towel on it to dry the outside of the case, then pick each one up individually and dry them pretty good with a hair dryer and I put them neck down in one of the plastic blocks and I'm done with those cases for a good while, usually overnight before I start loading them.

To start loading, I get my block of prepped brass, and pull them out one at a time and blow dry air through the primer pocket using my air compressor and one of the blowers with the rubber nozzle. I put it over a paper towel so I can see any moisture that may come out(my compressor has a dryer on it to prevent any condensation in the hose).

If any moisture comes out(usually none), but it it does, I leave the cases upside down in the loading block and pop them in my little toaster oven that I picked up at a garage sale for 2 bucks(eventually going to be a bullet powder coating oven). I set it at around 100-110 degrees and leave it alone for about an hour. I've never had moisture in the cases after doing that. I could probably skip the waiting overnight and just use the oven, but after prepping 50 cases and using a manual trimmer, I get tired of messing with it and I don't need to be loading at that time.

After being heat dried, the cases are ready for primers.

Personally, I have a Lee Challenger with the primer feature that I use to prime everything, it's simple, and easy to use and it beats the heck out of priming one at a time and keeps me focused. I tried the hand primer tools, they're good for what they are, I just prefer the press method.

I have all the unprimed cases back in block 1 with the necks facing up.

I go through and prime each one and place it into block 2 with the necks down, just so I can see the primers looking at me.

Once I finish that up, I set up the powder measure and scale. For sake of argument, I'm going to put 42.0 grains in each case

First step, always for me, is to wipe down the scale and powder measure with an anti-static dryer sheet. It may not do anything at all, but it's a small security blanket that takes about a minute to perform and makes me feel more comfortable.

I adjust the powder measure to throw just under 42.0 grains and set the scale up at 42.0 and throw 4 sample charges and zero the scale with the trickler to make sure everything is functioning properly.

I set block 2 close to the powder measure and scale and block one directly in front of the scale. I drop the powder measure loads into the scale pan and zero each charge out and then take a piece of brass from block 2, and put it neck up in block 1.

The funnel is then put onto the brass, and the powder charge dumped.

I find doing the powder charge this way all but eliminates the chance of a double charge.

Once I have block 1 completely full of charged cases, I take a flashlight and look at all the cases side by side to see if anything looks off. If it looks off, it gets dumped and re-weighed and charged.

Once I'm satisfied, It's time to seat the bullets

Same thing, very deliberate, each charged case moved to the press to get the bullet seated and then into a cartridge box and labeled and put on the shelf.




Sorry for the long read, I'm bored today and don't have anything to really do. So I get to peruse the forum all day and offer up bits of useless knowledge :guntootsmiley:

[Larry Gibson]

I see from the numerous duplicate posts others are having problems posting also. I've responded to 3 threads and all have just disappeared. Also I am getting pretty tired of the curser jumping around in the reply block causing parts of the message to go to who knows what places......and the constant unwanted scrolling up & down. Can't something be done?

Larry Gibson

[shredder]

Watching with interest. Sorry to hear of your misfortune. I will come right out and say I had an "almost" blowup years ago with a mauser from having 2 differet powders on my bench and subsequently into a case behind a bullet. I was lucky but the bolt on the rifle was ruined by the case head blowing the support lugs off the side.

Good on you to share and have us learn from the information coming forward. Thank you for your honesty.

[fouronesix]

Given the nature of the load with that powder it sure doesn't seem like a possible SEE to me. It does look like an overcharge. That 149.5K psi (double charge) would do that kind of damage IMO.

[felix]

Quite simply in OUR terms, a SEE condition is when a powder burns much, much faster than normal for the application. The application is important, like a case full of BullsEye in a 45-70 prolly will never go into a SEE condition, but surely blow a gun apart. The word detonation is used often in these discussions, and surely would be a SEE condition. OK, a better example: It takes some time to separate oxygen from hydrogen and electricity can be used to do that. The process is very slow using normal, at home, means to do so. However, putting both oxygen and hydrogen back together in the same ratio as separated creates an immediate explosion. A carburetor, a deterrent of sorts, is required to allow only a small amount of the two components to come back together at one time, and at the proper ratio, to cause a series of very small explosions that can be used. Whenever the carburetor or deterrent fails, then a SEE condition would exist. The amount of damage that would occur would depend on the remaining amount of the two components. ... felix

[fouronesix]

"[QUOTE=possom813;1965984]First, what does "S.E.E." stand for?"

Secondary Explosive Effect

In other words, an easy term to use when the exact cause can't be pinned down. Sometimes confused with overcharge and/or wrong powder, poorly reloaded ammo, gun metal failure, gun firing out of battery, etc.

[4570guy]

SEE = Secondary Explosion Effect.

I'm currently in the process of reading the book Firearms Pressure Factors where the author conducted exhaustive studies into the SEE phenomena. Based on what I've read on this forum and in the book, I'd say 5744 is much too fast a powder for SEE to occur. The author of the book states that powders as fast or faster than 3031 will not exhibit SEE. In a very short description, SEE occurs when a small powder charge of "slow" powder creates shock waves inside the case with the shocks occasionally coalescing to create an extremely powerful pressure spike that could destroy the gun. Apparently, all powders can create such shock waves, but only reduced loads (i.e., lower than recommended minimum charge weights) of the slower powders create pressure spikes that can be powerful enough to destroy the firearm. 5744 is about the same burn rate as SR4759 and both have been used for many years in a reduced load format with no issues.

I'm with the other posters here - it was likely a double charge.

[rsrocket1]

A cursory check with Quickload says 58g of 5744 is a 3% compressed charge and would generate 150,000 psi. While the charge would not overload the case, it would be into the neck of the case and I would think you would have spotted it. If you had a chrony, you would may seen 3300+ fps (or maybe a shower of molten lead).

[dverna]

I never leave a charged case open. It goes from the "primed" container, to the powder drop, and immediately gets a bullet seated into it.

EXACTLY!!!!

Once the powder is in the case the case NEVER leaves your hand until the bullet is seated.

[mehavey]

I use 5744 all the time in heavy 45-70 with perfectly predictable/chronographed results. In fact it is the most position-independent powder I've ever found for partial case fill loads. QuickLoad tells me that your 29gr load would have probably been a 51% case fill under that bullet, and ~29,000psi.

On the other hand, a double charge would have still been just under the case neck, ...and 150,000 psi.

So I go w/ the double charge theory.... which is one reason I always load all cases first in the block -- look inside each again with a flashlight once all cases are filled, ...and only then seat all bullets at once.

Powder level gets 3 (count`em) three looks -- once on filling; once in the block with the level compared against all others for consistency at the same time; and once again when it goes into the shellholder on press.

[littlejack]

Your guardian angel was on your shoulder sir.
Could it be that the case that blew up, had something in it to take up space and cause the pressure to rise to catastrophic levels.
Only the op knows if he checked each one of the cases for foreign objects/debris. Maybe a mud dobbers nest, or bridged/stuck cleaning media, or ?
Just another thought.
May you appreciate this very Merry Christmas sir, and to all the rest of the forum.
Jack

[swheeler]

Some posts are so silly it is almost funny! There was an extreme pressure excursion, the brass cartridge failed, gas was leaked into the action and it failed-period. You can't tell how much pressure was generated(other than TOO much) you can't tell if it was a SEE or overload or double charge or whatever by.... two splits means 80K, split didn't shatter so not SEE, brass burned on............... blah-blah-blah. Noone knows why, guess on:)

[madsenshooter]

I enjoy reading the guesses. I'm still waiting on a real cast boolit SEE, can't see it happening.

[Chicken Thief]

Some posts are so silly it is almost funny! There was an extreme pressure excursion, the brass cartridge failed, gas was leaked into the action and it failed-period. You can't tell how much pressure was generated(other than TOO much) you can't tell if it was a SEE or overload or double charge or whatever by.... two splits means 80K, split didn't shatter so not SEE, brass burned on............... blah-blah-blah. Noone knows why, guess on:)

Yes you can, it is called Quickload and will calculate internal ballistics pretty close to reality!

Safe load of 29 grains
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/3006OK.jpg

Double charge of 58 grains
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/3006BOOM.jpg

[mehavey]

+1 to Chicken Thief (and of course to Post #40 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?175582-S-e-e-Big-kaboom&p=1966905&viewfull=1#post1966905)) [smilie=1:

Reloading is very much literal Rocket Science, and failure analysis uses all tools available.

Even the OP having senior moment where he were to sleepwalk into changing out powders to load 29 grains of Bullseye would have only generated 80,000psi. (That pesky QuickLoad again)

Barring that, the smart money is on an inadvertent double charge -- and God's Grace.

[44man]

So QL says:
29gr 5744 = @29500psi
58gr 5744 = @149500psi

150kpsi would do that to a rifle!
All I can say is "YIKES!"

[swheeler]

I enjoy reading the guesses. I'm still waiting on a real cast boolit SEE, can't see it happening.

I think it happens quite often, but 99% of them don't destroy the rifle.

[Wayne Smith]

SWheeler is right. From the remains of the gun you can't tell exactly what happened. Quickload use is based on guesses of what might have happened, not on evidence of exactly what happened.

[Chicken Thief]

SWheeler is right. From the remains of the gun you can't tell exactly what happened. Quickload use is based on guesses of what might have happened, not on evidence of exactly what happened.

Hmmm, if we rule out pixies, leprechuns, elves, santas little helpers and the likes, we're pretty much down to human error in this case.

When measuring gun powder in batches of 29 grains, what do you suppose is the most likely possibility?
A round just like the others, loading wise, that just desided to self destruct for no apparent reason or a double charge?
Since the "evidense" as you call it is burnt and gone, we are pretty much left with guestimates of what happened. Based on the destruction of the rifle a double charge generating 150kpsi is the general concensus. But do indeed give us your opinion on the propable cause?

[doctorggg]

Googe it, see what pops up. "weatherby vanguard recall" Also the HOWA 1500, may be the same rifle??

I have the same exact rifle. I sent mine back to Weatherby and they replaced the bolt. It appears the bolt is what saved him so I wouldn't blame the recall. I would go with a double charge. As careful as I try to be (been loading for 43 years) I caught a double charge a few weeks ago by looking into the cases with a flashlight. Got distracted for a minute. From this story I am going to modify my reloading technique and place a bullet as soon as each case is charged. I am glad you are ok. I had an out of battery explosion on an M1 Garand probably from a high primer (my fault) and it blew that receiver into pieces. I never found the case. I certainly know how you feel and I am truly glad you are ok. I also received some facial injuries but thank God for safety glasses.

[GT27]

I never leave a charged case open. It goes from the "primed" container, to the powder drop, and immediately gets a bullet seated into it.

Works for me too!

[Boondocker]

I had a double charge of clays in 45 acp once and that was enough for me as my 16 yr old daughter shot it. Ruined mag, jammed gun, stung hand, beat it apart and still shoots like a dream. I am glad your allright and sry for the loss. I always pencil mark a 1/4" dowel and double check the height of the powder in the bottle neck cartridges before setting the boolit anymore. The pistol cartridges get eyed on the dillon every crank. Maybe Santa will lay a new one under the tree for you. Happy Holidays Steve

[Centaur 1]

On the other hand, a double charge would have still been just under the case neck, ...and 150,000 psi.

So I go w/ the double charge theory.... which is one reason I always load all cases first in the block -- look inside each again with a flashlight once all cases are filled, ...and only then seat all bullets at once.

Powder level gets 3 (count`em) three looks -- once on filling; once in the block with the level compared against all others for consistency at the same time; and once again when it goes into the shellholder on press.

I'm glad you weren't seriously hurt, and thanks for sharing.

I used to subscribe to the theory of charging a case and immediately seating the bullet, but not any more. I use a Hornady powder measure with the micrometer adjuster. I lock in the adjustment and verify the charge about every 20 rounds, and again after the last case is charged. Then I look in all the cases with a strong flashlight so I can visually compare all the cases with all the others. When comparing against all the others it is suprising how small of a difference can be detected. When you charge one at a time you still can't detect a bridged charge, but when you compare the cases side by side it is visible.

[303Guy]

Thanks for that, Chicken Thief. I wish I could afford Quickload.

To me, the most important thing is to understand just how that assumed double charge happened. I've done it more than once but caught it, having been warned and made aware of the possibility and I can say that I tightened up my practices after reading of incidences right here on Cast Boolits. During load testing in which I might load only one case, I sometimes shine that light more than once! I'm anal about it.

If Quickload calculated 150,000psi taking normal pressure behavior then imagine what the pressure could have been if the powder exhibited unusual behavior at higher pressure! But I'm a little puzzled - a double charge goes right up into the neck yet wasn't seen? Powder bridging might be suspect except the OP weighed each charge. To do that he needs to place the case upright in the loading block. That makes a double charge highly likely. I'm staying with the practice of never picking up an upright case without shining a light down it. Also, I'm staying with a powder that 3/4 fills a case or more so a double charge spills over big time. And I've done that! Using a loading block is no guarantee that I won't pick up a case from the wrong place!

On 'estimating' the actual likely pressure reached - if the brass 'melted' then the pressure would have exceeded the yield stress of the brass which is as high as 68,000psi. Way below the 150,000psi indicated by Quickload so no 'unusual behavior' of the powder is needed. We can only guess at the breaking pressure of the action but I'd guess that is was less than that generated! I do think it important for us all to mull over this event and yes, to speculate on it because we need to be aware of the possibilities and let it sink in!

My thanks to PULSARNC for sharing (and regrets that it happened to him). :sad:

To us all - what better powders are there that we can use safely as a substitute for powders than can be double charged? (I'm using W748 in place of 4227 as it is).

[cbrick]

I do think it important for us all to mull over this event and yes, to speculate on it because we need to be aware of the possibilities and let it sink in!

My thanks to PULSARNC for sharing (and regrets that it happened to him). :sad:

Absolutely!

PULSARNC was man enough to post the results and to own up to could have been him, many would not.

If his post gets even one person to stop and think and prevent just one more such incident it is well worth it.

Rick

[mehavey]

If his post gets even one person to stop and think and prevent just one more such incident it is well worth it.

+Many....

http://i45.tinypic.com/111sgep.jpg

Aways triple check against all other filled cases before the first bullet gets seated.
(I'm not paranoid. I'm a devout coward)

[swheeler]

+Many....

http://i45.tinypic.com/111sgep.jpg

Aways triple check against all other filled cases before the first bullet gets seated.
(I'm not paranoid. I'm a devout coward)

Knowing what powder that is, scary! I just don't see how you could miss something like that.

[PULSARNC]

First of all thanks to you all for your kind wishes .The more I delve into this and talk with folks who are way more knowledgable in this subject than I the more I also lean to a double charge.Why I missed it I don't know .The most likely answer is that in a moment of inattentiveness I simply screwed up. Yes I normally check visually for correct powder charges by eyeballing the cases prior to seating the bullets,did I do it this time ? I think so but it appears for whatever reason I missed one. I readily admit that I really lucked out ,the only real cost being the loss of the gun and scope, not my life or health.And oh yeah my pride took a beating but I can cheerfully live with that if my sharing this keeps it from happening to someone else.CHECK YOUR LOADS AND THEN DOUBLE CHECK BEFORE SEATING THE BOOLITS. WE have to remember that this is rocket science and we must be exact or this stuff can kill us . When using a powder measure I always check weight every 10 throw to be sure the measure has not shifted.Bottom line learned I SCREWED UP! This has and will be a learning experiance for me and I am revamping my loading routine to incorporate some extra checks might be slower but hopefully no more kabooms,don't think the heart could take another one .
Howa in japan builds the Vanquard for weatherby and yes they make a hell of a strong action.In fact they have built all the Vanguards for them .Smith and Wesson sold them for a time as their model 1500 rifle .My rifle had the old South Gate Calf address stamped on it for those Weatherby lovers among us You remember I contacted Weatherby several times but they chose not to respond I suspect on advise of their lawyer.Had they said Sorry about your accident that would have been a enough .Their total silence has me rethinking my choices towards something else as a replacement .My son-in-law loaned me a Browning x-bolt in .308 with a Meopta scope ,so far this year 6 shots and 4 dead right there deer think i am in love not sure if I am going to give it back !
IF i had won the lottery last night Ii would go buy a few more of these rifles and intentionally double charge some loads and see what it would take too duplicate the events just to satisfy my itch [set off by remote control from a few hundred yards away I might add.]But since I didn't guess we will keep mulling this over.Again thanks to all who have replied for your warm wishes and help in this matter .The vast majority of what I have learned about boolit casting has come from reading the fine info you folks post .In the future I will try to come more often and post sometimes

[w30wcf]

Awhile back a friend ruined a fine M70 .30-06 with a double charge of RL-7. He had been loading 28 grs and then filling the case with PSB (Polyethylene Shot Buffer). After a time, he decided to eliminate the buffer and accidentally double charged a case with 56 grs.

RL-7 is slower burning than 5744 .........

w30wcf

[Dan Cash]

I never leave a charged case open. It goes from the "primed" container, to the powder drop, and immediately gets a bullet seated into it.

Amen to that.

[goofyoldfart]

Many, many years ago (more than I wish to remember-37!) I had a Colt Trooper .357 that I had carried in 'Nam. I was reloading it and had been reloading for over 15 years at that time. Now how do you double charge a 357 case with Unique? Straight wall and all, short case (as compared with bottle neck rifle). Well, I could try to find all sort of excuses----But if truth be known--I GOT SLOPPY AND IN A HURRY!!!! Ain't proud to admit it, but I did. Got to the range with the wife and started shooting. Wheechee wow, this here pistol shure do got a little recoil to it. Enough recoil and noise that the wife who has watched me shoot and in competition spoke up and said and I quote (*** did you put in those rounds-- they aren't acting like .357's). Made me stop and think. emptied the weapon and started pulling rounds. Oh,Lord thank you for your Grace. Over half the box was 2 times the right load. I stopped shooting and we went home and pulled ALL the rounds. 12 had been fired and due to that I sent the pistol back to colt (I told them about my stupidity) and asked them to check and test the pistol. It came back with a clean record and they also said that it was on the tight side but still in Spec's. I am so sorry that I had to sell that weapon, but I no longer trusted it. Wished I still had it even if I hadn't fired it again--It saved my life a couple of times. The one important thing that did change was my loading technique--there is no such thing as TOO much safety checking. Maybe that's why I'm going to be 68 in 7 days:roll: I LEARNED A VALUABLE LESSON THAT DAY. HEAR MY STUPIDITY AND LEARN!!!!!!!! God Bless to all and may you all have a VERY Merry Christmas.

Goofyoldfart < aka GOF>