Sticky: Lapping 301 -- Changing LEE feature diameters [Archive]

Oldfeller

10-30-2005, 08:53 AM

Steve Hurst's traditional "loose lapping paste in the cavity" method has two problems -- the main one is the cavity begins to go out of round with the parting line axis growing larger than the 90-degree-from-the-parting-line axis the more you lap and this ovality gets agravated the more often you have to recast a new (off round) lap to keep on going on up in size. Removing the parting line from your laps helps, but the ovality is still there and it keeps on growing with each new bare lap you create. This technique is slow and is difficult to control for expanding a bullet feature multiple thousandths (like jacking out a nose .004").

Next issue is you can't keep the loose lapping compound located just in the nose area, it unfortunately migrates down into the band areas and starts enlarging other things as well. Even though you did wipe it off AFTER you noticed it moving around that first time -- the grit already got itself embedded in the extra turning slug areas before you opened it up and wiped it off and that grit just keeps on cutting.

================ Lapping 301 ================

The answer to these issues is to take a little fire-lapping technology and add it to your mold lapping technology.

Make up your lap slug as normal, then take it to your steel fire-lapping embedding plates. Roll embed a coarse grit into the desired surface until that surface is just about solid wall to wall embedded grit. Notice that the part of the lap bullet that you wall-to-wall grit embedded has increased its diameter significantly. You just made yourself up a hard aluminum oxide porcupine with a lead core.

Now go to a clean set of steel rolling plates and re-roll your embedded grit portion (bare steel, no additional grit) until you reduce the diameter until it measures the exactly the size you want your lap job to be. Notice how round everything is? This is a natural function of the rolling action. The lead core might not be perfectly round but the cutting tips of the aluminum oxide porcupine ARE perfectly round, this is done naturally by the rolling action of the steel plates.

Now, take your lap bullet and spin it with your drill and SAND/FILE off all the areas you don't want to have lapping action from. You may need to leave the bottoms of some lube grooves to act as aligment zones (bearing journal surfaces) and I generally leave the nose tip form as the front outside bearing journal. I always clean off the gas check shank 100% and the first driver or crush band 100% as they don't need to be growing any as you lap (two critical fit-up areas).

Now wash your lap off and scrub it lightly with a toothbrush to kick free any bit of grit that isn't firmly embedded into the lead. Don't forget to do this step, you don't want any loose grit pieces moving around inside your mold .....

Ok, you got a very hard, very round, precisely sized lap portion that is really quite wear durable. You got selected outboard bearing surfaces and inside bearing surfaces to spin this affair upon and your critical surfaces that you don't want to change have been removed from the equation.

Your first lap should leave at least .002" for your medium & final finish laps to work up to -- this is because when you first try to close the mold on an oversized cutting lap it DOES cut an oblong inital cut that is larger in line with the parting line.

Think about how the oversized first coarse lap sits up on the edges of a single cavity half as if you had just rested it there ...... Your finished laps have to gently recover this natural oblong cutting action from the first lap.

So, you got made-up durable rough laps, medium laps and finished laps. If you lubricate the cutting action with lots of liquid dishwashing soap they will last a long long time before you have to stop and re-grit roll them and resize them. They will only affect the areas you want affected. They will cut fast then they will stop cutting and spin free on your selected inboard and outboard bearing zones. The liquid dishwashing soap keeps every thing CLEAN, cool and lubricated. Just run hot water over the cavities occasionally to see how things are going. (liquid dishwashing soap is so much better for this use than oil or grease, it is a slick lubricating CLEANER after all)

Here is a magic trick -- the rough lap can actually "raise" a surface a little bit by raising a forest of heavy scratch marks for your medium and fine laps to roll partially back down. You can grow an undersized surface a little bit.

You can also intentionally "close down" or reduce an oversized bullet diameter on a LEE single cavity mold by clamping it up on the pin half in a smooth jaw machinist vise, crushing the kurling down and seating the sine forms into each other a little bit. You can dial one down by over a thousandth if you have to. Of course, you want to do this before you final lap it.

Note: If you screw up a final lap, you can close the LEE mold down a bit to recover the error before you retry the final lap.

Final lap has two real functions -- regain some better cavity roundness and reset the parting line to a nice fine line, not a big old nasty free lapping grit type parting line. Clamping forces are decreased and run time is increased on a finished lap engagement. Grit can be smaller too.

================================================

Yes, hand turning your laps has a real function -- fine work, small changes. Slow meticulous fine work is best done by hand. However, trying to remove multiple thousandths by hand is too too slow and that is where these powered hard-rolled lap techniques can do better.

================================================

Living with LEE molds is something those of us who don't have a killing amount of money tend to have to do. LEE molds don't fit individual throats all that well and tend to be undersized for most users in the nose "land rider" area as gun throats wear in this area quickly. These techniques allow you to adjust the size of a standard lee mold nose fairly easily and quite accurately.

Plus, having made up your finish lap --- keep it, you can use it when the naturally occuring simple kurling/sine form wear occurs over time and takes your LEE mold out of round a bit. Or you bang something and kick up a burr on the edge of your cavity and you mold quits dropping bullets out freely.

Oldfeller

Oldfeller

10-30-2005, 09:27 PM

This sticky sucks -- it is just words. It doesn't really teach you how to do anything. Useless, useless words .....

A good edumacational sticky needs a strong central character, some action and lots of pictures. I got more picture space available, now we what we need is that central character (a mold that is really really screwed up) to form this here real type edumacational sticky around.

I haven't got a crapped-out LEE mold (I fixed them all). Which one of you guys has got a really really crapped-out LEE single or double cavity mold that you will volunteer for fixing?

Your poor old mold has to have an interesting NAME of course, and an interesting history behind him of how he got in that terrible torn up shape that he is in to begin with. You have to be able to describe what all ails him and HOW what he casts now isn't useable to you.

(that way when you get him back we will have something to compare it to).

Who has a really really screwed up LEE mold?

Let's have a volunteer -- tell us what you got and how it got that way. All it will cost you is shipping one way to me, I'll ship it back to you after we are all done with it.

<g>

Oldfeller

P.S. Jumptrap, not yours -- sledge hammer marks are irretrevable.

Blackwater

10-30-2005, 10:43 PM

:groner: Well, Oldfeller, I beg to disagree with you. I think this is a FINE post, and one I'll likely NEED in the near future. Only mould I have that needs fixing is that darn .50 cal. minnie mould, and that one looks fine as far as dimensions go, so you MAY have to resort to one of ol' Jump's moulds after all. Just know that our deepest sympathies go with any attemp to work on ANYTHING that boy's had his hands on! Hee hee! If you can fix THOSE, you can fix ANYTHING!

Thanks. Darn good post, and like I said, I'll likely be needing/using it real soon for that .303 Brit #4 of mine, and who knows what all else. It's stuff like THIS that makes this place THE place to go! Even with ol' Jump here! :groner: [smilie=s: [smilie=1: :mrgreen:

waksupi

10-30-2005, 10:48 PM

I've got a Lee that needs some TLC, but not in the diameter adjustment. I've cast enough with my Bator Lite, it isn't closing without some extra shaking. Everything is lubed proper. Any suggestions on tightening up the handles?

David R

10-31-2005, 07:18 AM

I have a LYMAN that I tried to make bigger and ended up with more out of round just like you said. I did this just before the sticky came up. Used a drill press for the drive. Just dabbed the compound in the driving bands of the mold. I know its not a canadate, but 311359, about 115 grain 30 cal I was trying to make out to .314 for my 7.65 arg. Now its more out of round than when I started. How about if I buy a lee and you make it fit my son's rifle?

David
Living and Learning.

Oldfeller

10-31-2005, 07:50 AM

I'd take one that was all wobbly on the handles and wouldn't drop or open right. Fixes all involve the same techniques anyway -- but it would have to be a 1-2 cavity jobbie not a six banger.

Now Ric, you know I can fix loose mold handles or poor sine form engagement, you got a Cruise mold with the fixes applied to it. But I bet you are talking about a six banger, aren't you?

Oldfeller

Oldfeller

10-31-2005, 05:56 PM

We still need us a volunteer with a crapped-out LEE mold.

By now Ric has pulled out his official Oldfeller-stamped 6.5 Cruise Missile mold and said "Oh, heck -- well, that looks easy enough to do" and has fixed his wobbly goblin mold right on up. Remember to tighten the center handle bolt & nut up until it barely moves (with mild resistance) before adding the fixative. You are making the handle joint take over the worn alignment pin's function after all. Also remember to stick a bullet in the cavity and to use rubber bands to keep even strong tension on the handles while the fixative sets up between the handles and the blocks. This gives you "optimum cavity alignment" which is then transferred to the handle set to be maintained.

Now if you lap to this solid arrangement, you really get some fine looking work.

It don't matter to me what all is wrong with it, worn pin to aluminum alignment, worn sine forms, worn kurling, handles won't align -- you name it, we will show you how to fix it. With pictures no less.

And, if you can see your parting line flash size/offset changing from bullet to bullet to bullet -- then you got some diameter change issues going on too about at that same magnitude of size. Ditto for roundness issues too.

Broke is broke is broke.

=========================================

Of course, could it be that we really don't tear up cheap LEE molds like Jumptrap always seemed to be able to? He'd just touch one and it would go to crap on him. Maybe LEE molds really aren't such pieces of **** as some members like to discourse upon with such great fervor?

==========================================

Why can't I find me a worn out, crapped up LEE mold out of this entire group of ham fisted casters?

<g>

Oldfeller

waksupi

10-31-2005, 06:59 PM

Two holer, and nope, ain't got it fixed. Too busy hunting in the rain. Did you post a fix on this I missed?

Oldfeller

10-31-2005, 07:37 PM

T'was years ago, when folks were asking me how the heck I got the mold blocks on the Cruise to open and shut perfectly, always indexing the dowel pin into the sideways hole perfectly every time .... perfect closure motion with no free play.

"howtheheckdjadothat??"

Send it to me and we'll see ....

First, mark it in some way so you'll know the one I send back is the one that that you sent.

Next, tell us all about your ugly charlie mold, how it flops when it slops and what that does to your casting motions and all.

We all got to develop some proper sympathy for your plight, it helps with getting the creative juices flowing and all that artistic creativity stuff. Plus, only you can explain what a pain in the ass it really is to you -- also you will be telling me all the stuff that's gotta get right by the time we are done whilst you are explaining it to everybody else.

Just tell us what the idealized perfect LEE mold would do for you that this one sure as hell doesn't do and that won't be too far off the mark.

You didn't really think you were just getting it fixed for free, did you? You gotta explain it all first.

PM headed your way,

Oldfeller

waksupi

10-31-2005, 09:38 PM

Well, I'd tightened up the handle pivot last time I cast with it, and went from too tight, to still not right. The mold half seems to not be aligning, and rides up over the roll pin. I'm afraid I'll get face wear this way. I've been recently getting a drop of lead build up on the alignment pin in the bottom, so I suspect it has been being poured in occasionally with the blocks not entirely aligned. The shop doesn't have very good light in it, so between that and bad eyes. I miss things at times. Yes, I'm a klutz.

Oldfeller

10-31-2005, 10:12 PM

So, in between letting the blocks flop around madly, the handle set is telling the mold to go together in a way that conflicts slightly with the dual alignment pins and the sine features on the edges. Sometimes the handle set wins, but most times the alignment features win. Sometimes it hangs a bit and then goes together with a lurch (kinda).

You have mis-shut the mold enough times that you fear you might have done some bad things to the alignment features. (can you actually see the pin/groove wear yet? Symptom is widening of the aluminum groove on one side)

You know it doesn't close right all the time every time (and you do make an occasional funky heavily flashed bullet) but it doesn't really give you a whole lot of feedback when this actually happens, so you just roll on, casting at normal Shooters warp 3 speeds until you get a serious hunk of lead that's keeping the blocks open on you. I bet it is located at the end of a steel pin, lodged in the bevel point left by the drillbit.

The lack of light in your casting area really doesn't help, but the durn mold should go together reliably 100% of the time, even if it were totally dark in here.

Damn, it just did it again ......

Chisel out the chunk with your pocket knife and go back to casting. Seems like this is happening more and more lately. This thing is really getting to be a pain in the ass ....

Have I got it?

(actually, I am describing one of my old 2 cavity .44 caliber molds that I fixed)

Oldfeller

waksupi

11-01-2005, 12:30 AM

deja vou!

So, in between letting the blocks flop around madly, the handle set is telling the mold to go together in a way that conflicts slightly with the dual alignment pins and the sine features on the edges. Sometimes the handle set wins, but most times the alignment features win. Sometimes it hangs a bit and then goes together with a lurch (kinda).

You got it.

You have mis-shut the mold enough times that you fear you might have done some bad things to the alignment features. (can you actually see the pin/groove wear yet? Symptom is widening of the aluminum groove on one side)

This actually only developed as a problem on my last casting session. There is a small bit of brightness where the smoke was worn from the sine, but I don't believe any metal has actually been moved.

You know it doesn't close right all the time every time (and you do make an occasional funky heavily flashed bullet) but it doesn't really give you a whole lot of feedback when this actually happens, so you just roll on, casting at normal Shooters warp 3 speeds until you get a serious hunk of lead that's keeping the blocks open on you. I bet it is located at the end of a steel pin, lodged in the bevel point left by the drillbit.

Yassuh!

The lack of light in your casting area really doesn't help, but the durn mold should go together reliably 100% of the time, even if it were totally dark in here.

That is also my feeling. You're giving me a warm fuzzy feeling.

Damn, it just did it again ......

Chisel out the chunk with your pocket knife and go back to casting. Seems like this is happening more and more lately. This thing is really getting to be a pain in the ass ....

Have I got it?

It sounds like you are holding it in your hairy little mitts, as we speak. You have the symptoms, doctor.

(actually, I am describing one of my old 2 cavity .44 caliber molds that I fixed)

Oldfeller

Oldfeller

11-05-2005, 09:20 AM

Ric's wobbly goblin has arrived. You can tell he tries to take care of his molds, but this one was getting a head of him a bit. I can sympathize, because I had several LEE molds get ahead of me before I learned how to coral them in.

All LEE 1 & 2 cavity molds come in fairly "tight", but the mold motions on the handles can get loose very quickly and this leads to the progressive destruction of the mold faces and the mold alignment features. Note the extreme cavity alignment mis-match as the mold handles hold the cavities now.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/top.jpg

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/side.jpg

I also note Ric had to fight the "it won't come out of the cavity" syndrome on the inside cavity and it liked to stick first on the side away from the sprue plate, then it changed to the sprue plate side just recently (I bet the inside cavity sticks like a tick on a dog right now).

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/cover.jpg

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/sprue.jpg

I also note that he really likes this bullet a lot (he has patiently unstuck the mold dozens & dozens of times and put it back into service whereas 'ol Jump would have reached for the sledge hammer long long ago)

I've put the pot on to warm, let's see what the bullets look like as soon as it hots up to 700 degrees or so.

Oldfeller

Oldfeller

11-05-2005, 10:30 AM

Well now, I cast twice and learned something -- I cast several times more to verify that information.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/noses.jpg

The mold casts .3595"-.3615" as its natural size (whenever it behaves naturally, that is) and the two cavities appear to be slightly different sizes.

It can cast bullets with extreme size spreads within the one slug itself .362" to .366" all within the same slug -- it didn't shut correctly on that cast. And this was with me taking great care to align everything before casting ..... and I didn't drop them, I caught them in my gloved hand so they are not banged up by hitting something.

I betcha this thing throws them all over the place size-wise when casting at full Bruce B. Warp 3 type speeds.

Note the noses, the one on the right was actually scraped good by the mold edge and maybe even actually struck a glancing blow by the opposing mold side alignment roll pin as the mold faces dropped "down" to each other when the alignment surfaces disengaged. There was enough force here to scrap or peen type roll-over the entire end of the soft, freshly congealed lead meplat surface.

(hummm .... would this one fly very good?)

And stick, lordy did they stick -- the one on the inside fully met my tick on a dog expectations (and then some, yessir).

Now lets talk weight -- weight can affect vertical stringing at long distances. You don't see such large variations in size without seeing weight differences.

I'm gonna use a digital scale in grams 'cause I ain't weighing powder -- I'm weighing heavy as **** cast lead boolits -- just take the differences as a "percent change" if you want to get all technical on me.

Or go punch "convert.exe" into your browser to go get a PC utility that changes any measurement scale over to anything else. That is if you just HAVE to use grains for everything just to get your mind to work right (gun-nut syndrome #17).

for those who ARE complete gun-nuts, the conversion factor is multply grams by 15.4324 to get to real units of measure

15.293 grams___236.0 grains
15.351_________236.9
15.361_________237.1
15.374_________237.3
15.415_________237.9
15.422_________238.0

0.84% min-max difference -- well, maybe it ain't sech a big thang any no-wise.

Still, we gotta fix that nose scraping and get the sizes to be closer to the same size (and get rid of all that flashing nonsense and sticking nonsense) It offends my sense of mold propriety. (syndrome #23)

<g>

Oldfeller

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/pouch.jpg

PS The pretty leatherwork you see under the mold pictures and up on my wall -- that's Ric's native indian leatherwork. He shoots it, eats it, tans it then he paints and stitches it in authentic Indian motifs and sells it to tourists. (he likes to play with his food, in other words)

Actually, he does good work -- it's been a long time since I touched some real home-tanned leather. Brings back memories of my brother and I tanning muskrat that we had trapped in tidewater Virginia around Norfork when we were little shavers.

Ric spent more time just painting that purty pouch than its going to take me to fix his mold, but I appreciate the pretty thang anyway. I put it up next to my wife's needle-point reminder for me to not to get all wrapped around the axle so much as I go through life -- Ric does the same thing for me on occasion, too.

waksupi

11-05-2005, 11:30 AM

Kelly, I see you have run down the idiosyncrasis pretty well of the mold. After your description, I guess I didn't realize all of that was wrong, as I would focus on one problem at a time, rather than as a whole.
By the way, that think ain't tanned, it's rawhide. The lacing is the only thing tanned on it.

Oldfeller

11-06-2005, 12:38 AM

Ric, don't get upset, it ain't you -- but I'm not real pleased with LEE right now and it likely is going to bleed over on this here sticky a bit. I got me this nagging bad LEE attitude, you see.

(this is just after LEE changed our distributor initial buy-in amount, doubling it)

Jumptrap keeps telling us LEE sine-type molds wear out too damn fast and it is because of their rotten cheap construction. And intentionally lazy design techniques. They are built to be cheap crap molds -- on purpose.

I agree with him, they could have made this mold 2-3x more durable IF they had just closed down the 1.2 miles of slop between the sides of the handle grooves and the thickness of the handle tang sheet metal portion to the point the blocks were open-close (spatially controlled) within the span of good engagement of the built in mold block alignment features.

That's the major thing I am going to do to keep this sloppy wobbly goblin **** from re-occuring on you. I am going to get the cavities to align correctly just one more precious time and I am going to GLUE the ever living **** out of the mold handle tangs and the block grooves, affixing them to the handles so they go back together exactly right every stinkin' time they open and close.

But before I can do that, I've got to fix some face damage and get out all that gorped up lead in the drill centers up in front of the pins so the cavities CAN go together 100% right & correctly that one precious last time when I glue them to the handles. I will use two of the prettiest cast bullets (least out of round, least flash) to help get everything get lined up real good that last time.

If you did this simple 2-3x life extender trick to a brand new LEE mold when you bought it as part of your LEEMENT, that would be optimal (and it is what I do now every time I get in a single or double cavity mold). Or LEE could just buy a different sized saw blade (yup, that's what they use to cut that handle mounting groove -- a carbide tipped milling slotter blade)

But you see, LEE molds are crappy molds (built by DGAS people). No, that isn't true, the people who work at LEE care some but they have layers of DGAS managers over him who want maximum PROFIT and they want it NOW, screw making good stuff -- "it is good enough for what we charge for it" (the LEE Jr. philosophy). And that means you, operator -- hurry up boy -- you are taking too long to setting that job up, trying to do it right ....

Plus, the reason the groove grew out to that 1.2 miles wide is the handle sets don't go together all that well (buy cheap stuff to make cheap stuff) -- I have actually had to BEND some brand-new handles so the mold was within good open-close range before I could glue them in place.

NOW, DOWNSIDE TO THIS TRICK IS ..... you set the handles up to be the spatial open-close controlling element -- what happens when you drop the entire thing and it hits the wrong way on the concrete and it MOVES the handle set? Answer -- burn & scrape the glue out with a propane torch and start all over again with the fix. Or attempt a counter-bending exercise on the sheet metal tang material (you could do it with your hand strength alone since the blocks are solid to it now and they give you something to get a good grip on)

Good news is you can actually dent a mold corner up pretty good and not move the handles any at all. Got me a couple that got Ooops'd that way .... haven't had to torch anything yet (thank goodness).

Now to the steps -- I will present them in the order you would do them to a brand new LEE mold.

Oldfeller

11-06-2005, 12:40 AM

STEP #1
Deburr and deflash the mold face mating surfaces and the alignment pin sideways holes and the sine features. Warning -- on a brand new mold if you have a really big ding or a big hard flash edge -- leave it alone !!!! The cavities were cut with it that way and changing it may change diameters and feature sizes/flash lines. (sad but true, it was there when the cavities were cut and their proper size & shape depend on it staying there).

Wobbly Goblin's knurled faces are about gone (lots of wear and heavy encrusted soot) so he's gonna get smoothed up some and that's about all. He doesn't have any knurl-venting to worry about preserving ..... I may create a central vent zone between the cavities if I can get away with it, it all depends on how much this mold wants to flash after it is lapped.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/dscf0001_2.jpg

Hey, lookie what I found !!! The ghost of Kurling Past .....
Under encrusted crud from using bullet lube as mold lube, lots of small trapped droplets of lead, plenty of ding marks, whole raised edges caused by mold features slamming into each other and a nice crop of little pocket knife marks down next to the pin tips (one big one ran over the cavity edge causing a major bullet hang-up point which is your current biggest tick-on-a-dog cause), hey lookie -- vague traces of knurling. I feel like an archeologist. This thing wore out in normal use -- fancy that, the primative people of 2005 couldn't make a decent mold but their grandfathers could -- isn't that interesting, their civilization slid backwards for two whole generations.

(NOTE: this is the normal use a registered gun-nut does to any LEE mold -- and they simply can't take it. They are NOT UP to our general use, period.)

Let's talk about LEE general use directions for a second (they are written to guarantee you buy a new mold every few years) and the use of bullet lube as a mold lubricant.

We all agree aluminum needs some slicky to keep it from gnarling up on you, but bullet lube AIN"T the best stuff to use. It goes on wet, then it tries to mock the bottom of your wife's frying pan as it smokes off, stinks and dries.

Lots of fiber and other solids in bullet lube -- ask Felix, he can give you a percentage of the solids I bet. Waksupi had built up at least a couple of thousandths of solid gorp on his mold faces, he had no venting in some areas at all between the LEE mandated match soot build-up and the solidified bullet lube (which runs like a mad rabbit when it gets mold operating temperature). The two join together to make "mold cement" which builds up everywhere.

I put him a central vent between the cavities (I sanded it judicuously) and as long as he doesn't power pour or pressure pour (ladle to sprue plate or bottom pour nipple to sprue plate) he won't get any serious flashing.

I am going to switch Ric over to the dry moly system and get him to put up his matches and his lube stick on this one mold -- just to see how long it will go on with nothing but the burnished in moly system I send it back to him wearing. I'm also going to send him the final lap mounted bullet and some dry moly powder to use if the slugs ever do stop dropping free properly (as much as he likes this mold and uses it, he may have to release lap it again eventually).

========================

STEP #2
Burnish and de-edge flash (round over the edges) on the sprue plate sliding surface. That ugly plate did some ugly things to the top side of Wobbly Goblin -- ugly things -- (reference picture above)

========================

Hey, I got to split this post up -- too many characters --- so I'll split it right here as a good ending spot.

Oldfeller

11-06-2005, 12:56 AM

Step #3
Tune the handle joint, provide "PERFECT ALIGNMENT" of the cavities, close & apply rubber bands to handles -- heat and apply and cure heat-proof fixative.

In Wobbly Goblin's case, this means align the bolt/nut, drop pretty bullets into the cavities, close it, band it, heat it and apply loctite to the handle/cavity joints a very little at a time so it doesn't run all over the place.

Picking bullets for aligning the cavities on Ric's Wobbly Goblin was interesting, I picked the smallest, roundest bullets I could cast with the "inital mold state" to use for alignment setting duty. Smallest, because with the encrusted gorp gone his cavities close together better (tighter/smaller). Roundest, because we really want to minimize the roundess issues at this stage because it means less lapping later on to clean up the remaining out of roundess issues.

For a Brand New LEE mold, the alignment features should still be working, so just deburr/deflash a tiny bit then tighten the joint, rotate to align it, rubber band it up, heat it up and fixate it.

Tuning in the handle joint is a necessary step to this process. Tighten the joint until it drags some. Exercise the joint with some lubricant and if it loosens, tighten it up some more. You want the handle set to drag a bit, enough to hold the cavities open and keep them there when you want them to STAY open.

++++++++++++++++++++
I despise a sloppy floppy self-destroying LEE mold -- but that's what they are as they get shipped from the factory (complete with instructions on how to "long term" finish the destroying of them so you can go buy another one). They teach you to beat the sprue plate with a wooden stick to open it, for crying out loud. Then they teach you to beat on various things with that same heavy wooden stick to get the bullets to drop out of the cavities.
It's a crime of ignorance, factory-promoted ignorance no less.
++++++++++++++++++++

Rotate the nut/bolt assembly to the rotational orientation that minimizes that open-close handle motion drag (this is the same location it will seek again over time anyway). NEVER LUBE THIS JOINT WITH BULLET LUBE AGAIN -- it will likely stick up on after boil off as clearances are now absolutely minimal in this joint. I use light sewing machine oil on used molds that belong to other people and that only very occasionally as you have to exercise the handle set while the oil boils & smokes off or it will once again it will get stiff on you.

On a new mold that belongs to me I loosen the joint, puff moly powder into the joint, tighten it, exercise it, tighten it again, rotationally set it and forget it (forever).

Fixating the cavities -- I used to use phenolic resin from work, but that was 3 working jobs ago now. The stuff had a 3 month shelf life, so it set up on me and was tossed quite a while back. Old "dead" bottles of locktite are what suffice me now. They work, not as well though and they do have some risks with loctite being very mobile (very moble indeed).

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/dscf0004.jpg

I put loctite on at mold pre-warming temperatures to get it to run on in the joint and then go ahead and set up in a few minutes, so I don't waste a lot of time doing this step. WARNING: if you ever think the loctite got loose and got into the cavities don't panic - you are already screwed as it has already hardened -- you will have to whack it with a nylon hammer to get it to open and chisel it out of where-ever it got into (or just ignore it -- actually it follows the perfect alignment, so technically it isn't a "bad thing")

Don't forget to use lots of rubber bands on the handles when applying fixative. This would be a bad thing to forget as you can't grip that consistently for that long.
(you really can't)

=====================

P.S on the Wobbly Goblin, I had to soak the mold & handles over night and brush them with solvent as the evaporated (solidified) bullet lube had made the handle steel all greasy feeling and I was concerned the locktite wouldn't stick very good.

=====================

waksupi

11-06-2005, 01:57 AM

What I have learned so far.

#1. I now have a use for the container of moly I have had sitting on the bench for years.

#2. Friends don't let friends buy one and two holer Lee's. I,m taking the pledge.

#3. Had I tried to do this, I would have totally ruined the mold by this point. Fortunately, I had a nice protective coating of gunk on it. And don't own a concrete anything to drop a mold on.

#4. I better get some better light, in where I do my casting!

Oldfeller

11-06-2005, 04:30 AM

Everybody sandpaper laps the tops of LEE molds when they get all scarred up, it is a periodic tune up item that we have all done.

Why? Because LEE buys cheap partially dressed partially vibratory stone media smoothed sprue plate stampings that still have nasty edges that tear up the mold surfaces. We fix them up as much as we can, but the tearing up still happens, ongoing.

You see, LEE extrusions are SOFT aluminum. I have had pieces of lead oxides stuck to the sprue plate tear the crap out of the top of the mold, it doesn't even take steel to do it (although any nick or edge or burr or sanding mark left on that steel sprue plate will certainly do the gouge thing right smartly)

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/dscf0001_4.jpg

Ric had some real nasties on the Goblin, so much so that I reduced them from huge down to merely there and called it "good enough". I also tried to remove the burrs on the sprue plate that caused the gouges in the first place.

Notice the bullets sitting in place during the sanding -- this keeps you from rolling a wire edge down into the mold and creating a sticking point.

Oldfeller

11-06-2005, 04:38 AM

Drop Free Lapping -- non-size changing is done using comet powder. I still clean off the gas check shank on the lap bullet with a file (taking it way undersized) so it doesn't change anything in the mold around the gas check shank area.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/dscf0001x.jpg

Goal here is to get the bullets to drop free and to see if there are any restricted areas or if perhaps the cavities are different sizes. This form of lapping is very mild and will not change any sizes appreciably (not unless you do it like forever).

Being the world famed Wobbly Goblin Mold those two cavities are currently two different sizes -- I have PM'd Ric to ask him what size he wants both the cavities to be as our next step is doing the size change lapping.

Bret4207

11-06-2005, 08:52 AM

Kelly- I see where you're going with this. Kudos on a fine article. I really need to take care of my Lee's. A lot of what you're saying carries over into pretty much every other makers moulds, with the possible exception of SOME of Walt Melanders NEI moulds that are just perfect. Even with those the handle issue comes up. Again, great job!

carpetman

11-06-2005, 11:10 AM

What size does he want them both to be? The size the smaller one curently is. Do that and really impress us.

Oldfeller

11-06-2005, 12:14 PM

T'aint no impress to it, here's the tool ready to do the deed to the front half of the bullet (down where the two lateral pins are). You crush this first, lap it back to round then crush the top half using a good bit less force (if needed).

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/dscf0005.jpg

I keep telling you LEE molds aren't durable and they close themselves down slowly due to simple knurling wear and sine form wear -- don't you think I can do it on purpose whenever I want to?

I just crush it some in my widdle bitty precision machinist vise.

Hell, LEE uses the same trick on round ball molds (because they can't cut a round cavity) -- they throw in a carbide ball bearing and crush the mold around it EXACTLY like I am doing here.

If I had me a hardened steel lathed bullet, I bet I could really fix this wobbly goblin sack of **** back up.

(note that thought -- use harded steel "master bullet" as a means of making precise mold corrections very quickly and cheaply rather than sweating out all the finest machining and lapping methods. It would also take out the cavity to cavity variation that exists in a six banger mold. If I ever get LEE'd again on a group mold buy and have to fix it -- this thought might get considered even more strongly.)

Now, from the litter of slugs in the picture you probably figured that the mold is dropping free pretty good now. Size is still slightly off one cavity to the other, but the total casting span now runs at .3600"-.3615" all roundness and cavity to cavity variation included.

The two leaning up against the vise had a minor very thin nose flash (which would go away if I crushed the nose end of the mold in the vise) which is fixable two ways. The flash comes from damage done digging at the lead stuck down at the pins, it is the remainder or shadow from fixing the deep scratch from the pocket knife.

Remember I told you if the handle fixing loctite got loose in the mold you would have to chip it out? And that it followed the "perfect form" of the mold and technically wasn't a "bad thing"?

Yup, we can do it on pupose too if we want to -- a little dab will do you.
(oil the other side of the mold so you don't have to beat the silly mold open, you just got it working good and you don't need to be hammering on it at this stage of things).

So, both cavities (roundness included) meet LEE's factory spec which is .003" for size and .001" for roundness. They cast .3600"-.3615" measuring over all the bands and they only flash that tiny flash when power poured (I got over 100 sitting here with no flash at all).

So, I ain't turning that allen wrench handle nor getting out the loctite bottle until Waksupi gets back to me to say what he wants.

BTW ---- weight

Cast cold (shiny & small)
15.375 grams
15.380
15.374

Cast frosty hot (the right way !!!)
15.438 grams
15.436
15.440
15.443
15.431
15.444

"Everything" net difference cold to hot 0.069 grams or 0.45% weight variation

(this figure is roughly 2 times better compared to the 0.84% original figure. It includes the tiny flash at the gas check/sprue plate, but that should count as it rides out the muzzle under the gas check as part of the bullet weight variation)

Me, I'd toss out the 1-50 nose flashers at lubricising whenever they showed up as a good sorting criteria and I'd call this puppy fixed. If it irritated me again later, I'd fix it again.

And a LEE mold WILL come back to irritate you later, and you will have to fix it and fix it and fix it and fix it ..... until you finally give up and give it the Jumptrap 12 pound fix.

Remember, I told you I put in a central vent (between the cavities) which is not flashing at all. The goblin will eventually lose this vent as the mold halves settle into each other, but by then Ric will have him a whole NEW crop of issues from his NOT DURABLE (bound to fail again) cheap piece of **** LEE two cavity mold.

Oh Ric, what do want me to do ........

(answer = ship it back, it's done)

The final "drop-free" release lap slug is in the inner cavity, the screw for the lap slug is taped to the handle and I baby powdered the thing good with moly powder before wrapping it up for the trip back home. (note the use of the rubber band on the handles to keep shippng fretting damage away -- LEE Sr. used to do this but a rubber band cost too much money now so they let your new mold get all beat up before you ever get to see it -- Thank YOU, LEE Jr.)

All you need to do is open it up, blow it out, warm it up real good (full casting temperature) and go to casting frosty bullets from the very first cast. Then don't do anything to it and let's see how long the Wobbly Goblin goes before deciding on some new way to screw up for you.

(it's a LEE -- we can have confidence it will find a way).

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/dscf0006.jpg

Note: the first couple of casts will have some moly powder embedded into the lead slug, so just put the first 3-4 casts back into the pot.

StarMetal

11-06-2005, 12:29 PM

I think one of the problems with the cheapo Lee moulds is they must use the cheapest, softest, lowest grade of aluminum known to man. Hell you can carve it with a pocket knife. If they'd use a better grade the moulds might survive a while longer.

One major problem I have had with Lee moulds is the damn bottom horizonal alignment pin falling out. I'll be casting and start getting messed up bullets and go huh, what...then see the pin is gone. Lucky I find it in my bullet pile. Pain in the ass to put back in and work on because the mould and pin both are hot.

I always thought of Lee products as CHEAP. Some of them are okay, the rest are like we said when I was a kid "Japanese junk". I guess today you could almost say "Chinese junk" but they are catching up on technology at an alarming rate.

Joe

waksupi

11-06-2005, 12:31 PM

Kelly, PM sent

Oldfeller

11-06-2005, 01:36 PM

Some final thoughts as I tape the box back up.

It was a good "fix it" sticky and we did get that new mold "click" back for the Goblin (when the alignment features snap crisply into indexed location). But the mold grew a thou in the process as it had to grow some to get the roundess and cavity to cavity consistency back.

Size is more consistent now and weight is a whole lot more consistent. It is dropping free now, but that is the first thing that you lose on a LEE mold. (that's why I'm shipping the lap with the mold)

I never did ask if Ric casts with a bottom pour pot or a ladle ....

Ladle guys carry their flux with them into the cavities with the poured lead -- them ladle guys "crust up" their molds pretty much consistently too.

Anyhow, I am pretty good at doing something nobody should have to do -- chase the ever-changing condition of LEE molds due to bad materials and a shoddy design that is quickly vunerable to very simple wear.

I'm not buying any more LEE molds (except maybe the custom six bangers).

====================================

******** like this LEE fix-it stuff is no way to spend the limited hours of life you got left (no matter how young or old you are).

====================================

sticky done -- Oldfeller

waksupi

11-06-2005, 02:58 PM

Kelly, I'm a bottom pour type of guy. I can't walk and chew gum at the same time, so don't need the ladle to deal with.

Oldfeller

11-07-2005, 07:25 PM

Ric, it's snail-mailing its way back to you.

waksupi

11-16-2005, 06:56 PM

Kelly, it got back here. The donkey they haul the mail on here, must be lame. I don't know if I will be able to play in the marichi band anymore, since you have sucessfully removed all the shakes, rattles, and collywobbles. Thanks for a good job, and for showing everone the technique!

lovedogs

02-19-2006, 12:58 PM

Boy, I didn't have an idea how uninformed I was until I read all this. You guys know more about moulds than I'll ever get figured out. I used a Lee mould a long time ago and finally got so fed up that I trashed it and swore I'd never use a cast bullet again. Well, it took me about 30 yrs. but here I am again, trying to do it. This time I'm trying Saeco moulds. My first one was defective. I sent it back. They couldn't fix it so made me another. It wasn't perfect, either. But it worked. So they sent off to have a new cherry made whilst I suffered along with the replacement mould. Now, nearly a year later, they have a mould cut with a new cherry that they say is perfect. They are sending it to me to see if it works. I sure hope it's right this time. I don't know enough to fix my own nor do I have the inclination to go buy a machine shop so I can fix a mould. You can bet if I encounter any problems I'll consult you fellas!

44man

04-09-2006, 12:44 PM

Oldfeller is a genius!
Yes, Lee uses the softest crap aluminum because it is CHEAP! I use aircraft aluminum for my moulds. I use stainless for the sprue cutters. I never get gouges on the mould tops. Leaving the marks from an end mill on the bottom of the sprue plate and the top of the mould does wonders too. Rapine mould prep does a great job too.
I don't know if you guys have read my posts on freezing the blocks and re-cutting the cavities with a warm cherry. Some of my moulds come out undersize from block to block but the right size at the parting line. Freezing and re-cutting makes them round and the right size.
I wonder if this would work when lapping a cavity? Get some boolits imbedded and ready, freeze the blocks for an hour or more, then lap. Re-freeze between laps. This might get the lap to cut where you want it to instead of at the parting line. I haven't tried it yet, but will in the future. If any of you do, please post it.
I cast new laps after lapping to keep the boolit size up. Be a pain to cool the mould and re-freeze before using a new lap. but the time should be worth it.

StarMetal

04-09-2006, 02:36 PM

From what I understand talking to Buckshot is it doesn't matter if the aluminum is harder by tempering or not. Buckshot said that the heat of casting with an aluminum mould will take any temper out of them. I believe he is right. If he is then you're wasting your money on a more expensive aluminum. The one thing that Buckshot and I agree on about a harder aluminum mould are those that have been anodized. In fact my original Thompson Center 50 cal Maxi-Ball mould, made by Lyman for them, is anodized and it's held up really good for 35 yrs or more. Just my two pence.

Joe

44man

04-09-2006, 06:27 PM

Joe, I don't buy anything! This is scrap aluminum from when I worked for United Air Lines. It does not get soft after casting. The moulds do not get hot enough to change. A friend gave me a length of 6061 aluminum to play with and it made great moulds with no galling of the top surface. The only way I will get a scratch is if I miss a burr on the sprue plate. I have no scratches on my moulds, I have them on Lyman iron moulds.
The only money I spend is on some drill rod for cherries, about $5 for 3 feet and Rapine handles which are only $14. I have three sets and I just change handles from mould to mould.
There is a great difference between my metal and the Lee metal.
You have to remember that aluminum is alloyed for different purposes and heat does not change the alloy. If this was true, the addition of tin and antimony to lead would be useless. Tool steel would be junk if heat changed it by making it soft by ruining the alloy. It can be re-hardened, the alloy is still there unless you burn it off with extreme heat.

StarMetal

04-09-2006, 06:51 PM

44man,

6061 is what I will be cutting my mould from.

Joe

Oldfeller

04-12-2006, 02:35 AM

Ack !! Thread hijacking in progress .... Hijacking a Sticky no less !!

Now I promised everyone I would post the statistical analysis of an entire LEE production run -- this one was the 7mm Soup Can run which was 50 molds long but I only got hands on to the first 25 molds for measurement purposes.

First, let me explain why a caliper was used instead of a micrometer -- the mike I had available had a clicker thimble on it and it would absolutely reliably crush all parting line irregularities flat as a pancake instead of measuring them and it put little bitty minute flat spots on thin ogive "max diameter" areas too (once you laboriously located them and tried to measure them). In other words the mike really wasn't working for me at all and the caliper did just dandy in both finding and measuring the "soft" parting line areas and them frail and downright tiny ogive maximum diameter points.

A caliper isn't an ideal statistical tool. First, it lacks fine division or discernation-- it will only discern to 5 tenth increments while a mike will discern to single tenths (and some good ones will do 50 millionths which is half again finer discernation). Second, a caliper can be "driven" by an operator to achieve a desired goal (conciously or unconciously) and a mike generally tends to be more impartial as well as being more accurate -- on solid steel parts anyway.

But, hey - when you are dealing with lead bullets the only reliable mike I have ever found that won't crush things is a Mitutoyo QuickMike with the "hands off" fast action low contact force slip-type thimble. But the silly things cost $450 and I don't own one personally. And my current company doesn't own one either.

So I used a Mitutoyo caliper for this study -- shame on me. At least I didn't "drive" it, I always recorded what I got and I took all measurements twice and I used two different bullets per mold to make sure I had some basis to call out an "off" number with some level of confidence.

=============================

What can cause cast bullets to vary?

Many things, alloy - temperature - casting speed - head (pour distance) - open close variation on the alignment pins - closure force on the mold cavities - lordy, there are a lot of things. I tried to take some out just to keep things simple and keep things as neat as possible.

To attempt to be fair, all casting was done exactly as the molds were shipped using a Lee handle set to provide the clamping force and using a Lee 10 pound bottom pour pot allowing the nipple to rest in the sprue cone and using the nozzle as a forced pour arrangement. In short, I wanted as wrinkle free a first cast bullet as I could get and I wanted to reflect the size of the cut cavities in WW metal without any smoke or spray or other sorts of stuff that folks normally use on molds.

(smoke and spray all make mold cavities cast smaller, you know that, right?)

So, here is the raw data in picture format so you can see the organization of the rows and columns.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/toppagedata.jpg

Once again, right click on the pics, hit copy then paste it into your favorite graphics program so you can expand it enough to acutally see the numbers.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/bottompagedata.jpg

Got to split this post in two -- list can't take the whole enchalada. This seems as good a spot as any ...

Oldfeller

04-12-2006, 02:35 AM

The center two cavities were cast and both separate bullets were measured at the nose ogive max diameter section (a wee tiny little zone really) and over the length of the driver bands. A measurement was recorded over the parting line and at 90 degrees out from the parting line -- this reflects roundness of the bullet with most slugs being smaller at the parting line (which means the clamping force used during machining was greater than the clamping force available off the LEE handle set -- the cavity holes were round when they were cut but they were just clamped a lot harder at that point in time)

Cutting to the chase, LEE made some out of print cavity holes during this mold run dispite being given a full .003" tolerance as per their spec sheet requirements. Most of this error was locational -- where they parked or set up the process.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/processcapabiltiybands.jpg

If you want to be able to really read these graphs, right click on them, copy them then paste them into your favorite graphics program and expand the image back to a "readable" size.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/processcapabilitynose.jpg

Notice the bands were set up at the low end of spec and the nose was set up at the upper end of spec. I drummed at Doug DO NOT, REPEAT DO NOT GO UNDERSIZE on the nose so I can see where he maxed out on the nose. Why he went short on the driver bands, I dunno. At least he was actually touching a print limit instead of being .002" undersized as has sometimes happened recently, so it is not to complain I guess.

==========================================

Now. lets talk about CAPABILITY to a .003" tolerance for this run. Obviously when you have one item hanging half out the top and the other item hanging half out the bottom of your .003" tolerance range and you are measuring out of print non-conformance in whole percents (and your PPK is a negative number because the center of a distribution is completely out of tolerance) -- you are not capable of holding the .003" tolerance.

Now, let's talk some fairy juice. IF Doug could center his process in the middle of spec his sigma numbers and histogram spread indicate he COULD maybe get them all into a .003" tolerance. His PPK, Cpk, Z-score or whatever flavor of capability index that you like to use wouldn't be very good, but IF Doug could center his process in the middle of a spec he COULD get them all in print with a .003" tolerance. Theoretically.

He sure as **** has no chance at all with a +/-.001" tolerance, much less when given a total tolerance of .001" (+/-0.0005") So, give him a teeny tiny tolerance span if you want to -- but don't be too surprised when he misses it by a couple of thousandths. Design your bullets to work with a .003" tolerance span and Doug has a fighting chance to make you a run of molds.

Now, is the process under statistical control? Yes. it just isn't as good as you would like it to be.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/xbarbands.jpg

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/xbarnose.jpg

Note the range charts (bottom portions) please. The sample size is the same as the number of times a bullet got measured (parting line to 90 degrees out) so the calculated range chart is really the statistical expression of bullet roundness. LEE might cut cavities perfectly round, but the blocks move on the alignment pins some and there is open-close variation and clamping force variation that gives you out of round bullets to the tune of a thou and a half (right regularly too).

I may have some more to add to this as I play with the data, but you begin to see why LEE asks us to put .003" tolerance ranges on things -- they need it.

Adder thought -- if your range chart upper limit is statistically generated at .0016" (roundness variation within a bullet) how could you even begin to think you could give somebody a .001" total tolerance spread -- LEE USES UP more than that in roundness alone -- much less covering the larger pure dimetrical size variation that is going on at the same time.

Amusing thought -- the 3 oversized molds that were supposed to be enlarged to a thou over print specification on the driver bands never even got close to that neighborhood -- actually they fall right into both sets of control charts and both sets of histograms. Statistically, they were not really statistically "different" from the normal run molds.

Oldfeller

Oldfeller

04-12-2006, 03:01 AM

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/dscf0005_1.jpg

Mobile automatic-firing 94mm Savage (insurance, permits & liscensed ordinance)

Old Ironsights

04-23-2006, 09:53 PM

How about somthing a little weirder...

I have a Lee dual cavity .45 REAL and .440 RB.

I want the RB to be .457 for my ROA.

Is there any chance of making a round ball bigger?

Oldfeller

04-30-2006, 08:55 AM

I would think lapping would tend to give you ovality issues on your round style bullet. The lapping action would be most effective at the "equator" of the spun bullet but it would be relatively ineffective up at the north and south poles of the spun bullet. Why is this? The embedded grit would be moving very little (and relatively slowly) as it made that tiny orbit up at the N & S poles.

When you lap a normal bullet check the amount of removal that takes place on the center of the meplat of the bullet -- very very little if any gets removed.

Oldfeller

steveb

05-25-2006, 07:56 PM

EXCELLENT STICKY Old Feller:drinks:

drinks

07-02-2006, 08:53 PM

If I had read this several years ago, it would have saved me some learning time.
As is, I now get my NEW Lee mold, use plenty of acetone on everything, inspect the alignment pins to see if they have been driven in enough to plow some metal up at the ends, about 1/2 the time they have been.
Use a slip on the underside of the sprue plate, place very small amounts of nickel neverseize on the pins and "v's", spray the pivots with graphite and then rubber band the handles together and use thick CA glue to immobilize the handles and blocks.
I use the back of an Exacto knife to lightly check all the edges of the cavities for any burrs, lightly smoke the cavities and then use a q tip and acetone to remove all carbon not in the cavities.
After casting a few, I mike a couple to see how big they are, most are too small, so , after trying the lapping and messing up a mold, I decided to make a reamer similar to a woodruff key mill at the diameter I want, a little squeezing and twisting and I have molds that are the size I want and are also round.

Oldfeller

07-14-2006, 09:47 PM

So you want to Honcho a mold buy? You got somebody bapping you out a fine looking drawing for a new bullet, but you aren't sure about the tolerancing to put on it or the draft angles or the gas check shank length or how to spec the fit of the gas check? Hey, how about the metal alloy LEE will use when final tuning the mold cutting program? That all counts too.

These are some things to be worried about a bit if you are a new mold buy Honcho, especially if you haven't got the answers for them.

We have a half dozen experienced designers on the list and at least 3-4 experienced Honchos who have had to deal with LEE "oopsies" in the past. Good thing is that you can get your questions answered here.

Bad thing is we won't always agree and you will be asking the crustiest oldest members a question that we might beat up on each other a bit in answering it as these are old emotional topics for the somebodys what had to lap 100 molds to learn the lessons (or in Jump's & Lar's case had to send mold runs back to LEE and eat all the shipping costs and associated hassles).

Yeah, new Honcho -- you gotta protect yourself from LEE errors interpreting your nice new drawing ..... and you want your new mold to drop bullets better than the standard LEE stuff does too.

(iffen you are a smart new honcho, anyway)

Oldfeller

07-14-2006, 09:47 PM

The antidote for LEE changing stuff against your wishes is proper communications directly with Doug.

Don't communicate to the answer phone ladies. (obviously they just pass on whatever they think it was you wanted to say)

Don't communicate to Pat -- he acts like a salesman and seems more interested in setting up a rebuttal scenario if issues come up than in helping you avoid them. Pat is the origin of the dreaded "it was a shared error on your part due to unclear call outs on the drawing". Avoid talking to Pat, I have never gotten anything useful out of him yet.

Call the LEE number and let these words fall out of your mouth, "Hey, can I talk to Doug in the mold room?" They will let you talk to him if he is there. Doug is the one that cuts the molds, decides if your design can be cut, schedules your mold job and is the only one you can communicate with verbally that MAKES ANY DIFFERENCE.

Now, when talking to Doug make sure you have put all same the stuff on the drawing as well. You talk to Doug this week and by the time your mold job comes up in 2 weeks he will have forgotten your conversation or will have gotten it mixed up with somebody else's phone call. Nothing beats having the important information on the drawing itself .....

LEE will perhaps alter your drawing if they don't understand that you really did want it that way for a reason. This requires Doug to understand a bit about what you are doing and that requires you to get through to the mold room and talk to him one on one.

Oldfeller

07-14-2006, 09:48 PM

Next, you guys are not even getting complete drawings from your designers to send to LEE. You show lots of missing details which means LEE has to guess as to what the heck you want when Dougie goes to programming the CNC lathe. (they don't have a good track record when forced to guess for you, BTW)

How wide are the driver bands on those bullets? How long is the gas check shank? What is the release angle on that lube groove side (should be 45 degrees if you want them to simply drop out of the mold)? What metal is to be used for fitting (WW !!)? Who's gas check to snap fit the gas check shank taper for (Hornaday!!)? You HAVE to provide all the needed details right on your drawing itself to be protected from screw-ups.

Next, you new honchos DO owe your group buyers a detailed drawing that shows all the pertinent details so your buyers can 1) understand what he is signing up for and 2) be able to negotiate a return to LEE if they screw his one particular mold up.

Why do you need to equip the individual to send back a single mold?

=================================

Screw up reason #1

The boring bar got dull half-way through the run or it hit a bit of slag in the aluminum stock and chipped the cutting edge a bit, ruining the rest of the holes.

Result = undersized features on the cast bullets

Why do you think LEE claims a +0-.003" effective tolerance? Because the boring bars start out nice and sharp and gets dull during the mold run. When the boring bar gets dull, loads go up and the boring bar deflects more than it did at first. The deflected bar cuts a smaller form and your bullet size goes down down down.

Worst case was the 6.5 bullet size, Doug would break or dull a bar every fifty holes or so -- and have to stop, re-tool and re-tune the final finish dimensions off of cast bullet meaurements. 6.5 holes are a bitch to cut.

What can a Honcho do? Understand that if you don't start him out at least a thousanth over what your ideal dimension should be you are going to get stuff that is maybe up to .002" undersized by the end of the run.

8mm bullet designs for example -- nose diameters can go all the way up to .325" on the current bullet designs and still load in the throat zone just dandy. Why in the world did you choose to start out at .320" and take the chance of being sloppy undersized by the end of the run? Be smart and start out a bit larger, so when the boring bar gets dull you still always get your minimum .320" nose that you really wanted.

Ditto for body bands -- if you want to size to .326" start out a bit larger.

==================================

LEE is not a machine shop. They are a functional mold cutting monopoly. You try to send back a run of molds and Pat will use your drawing errors and omissions against you, claiming "shared responsability for the error", thus no return can be authorized. He will play 2 cards every time, the LEE standard +0-.003" tolerance and "we fitted it with lino -- you didn't tell us to use wheel weight metal".

**** boys, when pressed hard they will even claim that WW metal isn't a standard alloy and their WW metal isn't your WW metal.

Talk to Jumptrap -- he had to go there. Lar 45 had the benefit of our experience, so when they screwed up the FAT 30 they were looking at a fully detailed drawing with NO WIGGLE ROOM for them to hide behind and they took the run back and fixed it.

NO WIGGLE ROOM -- that's the Honcho's goal --

Oldfeller

07-14-2006, 09:53 PM

I never insured a mold nor spent any money on tracers. I had a spare mold or two for each run and I figured if it went wrong it was actually cheaper to ship a spare mold than pay all that extra money in insurance for all of the rest of the mold shipments. I never got stuck on one single mold shipment, ever.

I NEVER had enough molds by the end of a run no matter how many extras I bought -- there were always folks who wanted one after the fact. Once I screwed up and took in too many checks and had to give up my own mold (I was able to get another though since it was a Midsouth listed mold). No matter, I had hundreds and hundreds of cast up bullets as I actually cast off of each mold and measured the slugs before shipping the molds.

Now, does LEE actually keep the screwed up molds you send back and sell them to somebody else? Yup, they sure do, the ones that aren't too far off the mark. Ask Doug for a copy of a custom mold in any caliber and he will go to his shelf and read you off 3-4 different styles he "happens" to have one left on. Try him, he either saves his tuning molds and "real close" returns/rejects or else he cuts a new one to the stored program and sends it to you.

Example, Sundog actually bought a couple of 6.5 cruise missiles from Midsouth that I swear might have been rejects from the original run (strongly undersized on the nose section). It was so embarassing that LEE actually contacted Sundog to try to get him to send the molds back .....

Oldfeller

07-14-2006, 09:59 PM

Whitelitenin posts: "I thought the tolerance for Lee molds was -0 to +.003"

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Aw ****, did I pull me another senor moment? Quite possible, they happen more and more frequently as I get older. Did you look at their current spec. page or are you just "remembering" too? If so, post us all a link to it.

White, if so the .003" range is still the same and you would be foolish to plan for LEE to consistently cut your bullet varying oversize for you as 1) tool dulling and boring bar deflection both cause their lathes to cut undersized holes and 2) LEE keeps on using Lintotype alloy which casts a bullet slightly bigger during final CNC tuning stage which causes them to cut a mold that fits lino and casts slightly undersized when using normal WW metal and 3) it has been the experience of the group over time that LEE tends to cut undersized when they go off into the weeds.

(this sure ain't changed, has it?)

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and so, I put all my old crusty nonsense in the same place in one single sticky topic. If it helps you avoid some trouble with LEE molds, then good.

It seems that as we turn new generations of Honchos we fall back into the same errors time after time. Maybe this will help that tendency.

Good shooting,

Oldfeller