Best lubes

[axxman928]

Have acouple of questions for you people........
What is the best and easyest lube to use for pan lubbing?
What is the best and easyest lube to use in an sizer and lubber machine?
Don't know which way to go. axxman928

[Crash_Corrigan]

Check with LAR45 he has a dandy assortment of lubes and he will send you a sample pack at no cost for your perusal. I use his red carnuba with excellent results and it is really inexpensive.

[Newtire]

Have acouple of questions for you people........
What is the best and easyest lube to use for pan lubbing?
What is the best and easyest lube to use in an sizer and lubber machine?
Don't know which way to go. axxman928

I have to go with Crash on the Lars Carnauba Red being a great lube. I made a batch of Felix Lube that is easily the equal only I have to heat it up & pour it into the sizer--my lube-stick molds didn't work out like I would have liked.

I'm going to give the Bullshop stuff a try as I hear it is good stuff too.

If you don't mind all the stink and smoke, LLA is hard to beat for ease of installation. Some folks hate it-others love it. Newtire<---loves it!

[piwo]

I only cast for BP projectiles and these are large boolits. I am told pan lubing works best with large projectiles and after some failed attempts, I now have settled on a mix and method that works VERY well for me.

Mine is 56% Crisco (the lard type stuff), 41% beeswax and 3% paraffin. All by weight. I use the double boiler method to mix/melt the ingredients in a 3lb coffee can, pour into a round tin which is lined in aluminum foil (acts as a release agent and keeps SWMBO's pan clean) and remove the boolits after about an hour and a half (or when the wafer allows handling). I let it set up over night once and needed a hammer to get them out (well, not that bad but the results were not as good).

That's what I'm doing, and the lube is working well....

[wiljen]

Having recently dip lubed myself in LLA during the group buy, I can attest to its utility.
It really is a great dip lube if thinned a bit. (The wife says it aint much of a cologne though).

Wiljen

[MtJerry]

Having recently dip lubed myself in LLA

Your supposed to put it on the boolits :-)

[Bass Ackward]

What is the best and easyest lube to use for pan lubbing?

What is the best and easyest lube to use in an sizer and lubber machine?
Don't know which way to go. axxman928


Ax,

The best lube to use for pan lubing is a two part answer. First answer is, a lube that won't burn off the ingredients and change the properties as you heat .... and reheat .... and reheat. So that means that unless you know what the ingredients are in a lube, how do you have any idea when to throw out a lube or add fresh ingredients. And trust me, cheap SOBs like casters NEVER waste lube. Why you got guys out there looking at dog do do trying to figure out how to make use of it. Trust me.

So that eliminates lubes purchased from somebody else that have secret ingredients. In my mind you need to make something simple for yourself. Like Bee's wax and Vasoline or something.

Best lube for a lubrisizer depends on what you want to do with it. The widest application lube which means it is the easiest to use in the broadest applications for handgun or rifle is NRA formula or 50/50 Bee's wax and Alox.

But after you get your feet under ya, there are lubes out there that beat that all to hell. Just not one for every situation. So you need two lubrisizers. :grin:

[BABore]

The best lube for what?

Ease of application, accuracy, leading, consistency, price? You need to define what your goals are because there is no one best lube. Every caliber, barrel, and bullet combination will show a preference. Just like powder and primer choice. IMHO, to marry yourself to one particular lube is a mistake. You need to setup your criteria based on your needs and goals. For me that is in this order.

1. ACCURACY A hunting rifle load should shoot sub-inch at 100 yards for three shots. A revolver load should shoot sub-inch at 25 yards for five shots. Both from the bench.

2. CONSISTENCY The load/rifle should do this everytime after the bore has shot its necessary number of fouling shots. No cold start flyers. No purging.

3. VELOCITY The lube must perfom at the velocity and pressure range that you want to operate in. The hardness of the lube will come into play here and used as another variable.

3. LEADING Assuming the bullet is well fit and sized to the gun, there should be no leading caused by the lube giving up on you. This may require playing with the alloy and hardness to overcome barrel conditions. Minor powdery leading is overlooked if it's a gradual thing. The lube should be used up in the barrel and not left on the recovered bullet. Leading is a minor issue if the above goals have been met. A little elbow grease and a copper "Chore Boy" is a small price to pay.

4. EASE OF APPLICATION Just something you have to deal with. Some are better than others and may or may not require a lube heater. Softer lubes seem to perform better than really hard ones, but will be dictated somewhat by velocity and pressure. An eye has to kept on how the lubed bullets load, handle, store, travel, and handle heat.

That's my list and how I look at lubes. Too much is made of the "lack of leading" thing and one size fits all. For just starting out, pick a softer lube that's easy to apply with your equipment. Get a couple different types from different manufacturer's and try them. Everytime you get a new gun or mold, retry all the lubes you have until you find one that works best.

[Bass Ackward]

Whew! Nice summation. I had to write that down.

[45nut]

that IS the definitive answer BA. I sticky'ed it to help.

[357maximum]

BaBore:mrgreen:

:drinks: Perfectly stated:drinks:

[BABore]

Simplily the matter of tracking down the most qualified and knowledgeable individuals, listening and understanding what they tell you, then applying it yourself to see. "I done it" beats "I heard it" everytime. Just don't know if I have enough time left to do it all.

[tnv]

LBT blue

[Marlin Junky]

I've been making lube for a few years but haven't been able to acquire a whole lotta knowledge because I've been concentrating on other variables where I can really notice a difference, like BHN. However, I'm inclined to believe that lube composition isn't as critical a factor as lube amount if we're talking about basic beeswax and oil type lubes. I would like to find a formula that places the first shot of the day nearer to the rest of the group though... if that's even possible. That's another reason why I tried a little softer lube with a higher oil to beeswax ratio but it didn't seem to help. I don't clean my barrels so the fouling shot thing shouldn't apply; i.e., my fouling shots are fired during the previous range session.

MJ

P.S. I try to keep my maximum loads in the 35K to 40K CUP for my Marlin 336 shooting, but once I get my scoped .358 Hawkeye going maybe I'll learn more about lube tolerance to heat and pressure.

[Mayhaw2]

Hello Gang, Wonder if anyone is using Rooster Jacket for Cast Boolets.
Mayhaw2

[imashooter2]

Hello Gang, Wonder if anyone is using Rooster Jacket for Cast Boolets.
Mayhaw2

2 light coats work great for me in .45 ACP at ~740-800 fps in either revolver or auto. The same 2 light coats lead the heck out of a .38 at ~830 fps. 3 coats is much better, but still a bit of leading. I'm going to keep tweaking the load, alloy and application to make it work though... The hard, dry coating and no trip through the sizer makes it a good system for IPSC, ICORE and other match type loads where you need a bunch of ammo and speed loads are important. I can't see it being any good for rifle or magnum handgun loads. Liquid Alox is a better lubricant and I'd use that if not for the sticky bullet noses.

[44man]

Babore rules!
Every gun and boolit is different and those that work with one lube won't work with another. Lubes are like powders in that you don't load every caliber with one powder and I know darn well all of you have cans and cans of different powders, also primers. To use one lube only for all guns just doesn't work. To use a lube because it is easy to use limits what your gun can do. Sometimes we have to work a little.
For instance, I have one boolit that I didn't have an over size die for and Lar's carnauba red is great with it. Not wanting to size, I rubbed the stuff into the grooves with my fingers. They shot super but I wore the skin off my finger. I have since made a die. Maybe the red would pan lube but I hate to try melting a good lube. We just need to suffer once in a while!

[lar45]

I'm in Oregon visiting my brother right now, but you can email for free samples to
sales@LsStuff.com
Just send your address and which lubes you want to try.
Carnauba Red, BAC, Xlox 2500+ or 50-50 www.lsstuff.com/lube for details.
I do have Liquid Alox in 8 and 32oz bottles, but no sample sizes on that.
My wife is still shipping packages while I'm gone.
Thanks
Glenn.

[45nut]

What part of Orygun? Driving thru central ore ?

[Adam10mm]

I've used some sample homecast bullets and some Hot Shot bullets both lubed with Lar's Red and the lube worked well for both 10mm and 45 Auto. Going to order a bunch of lube for all my stuff.

[Lloyd Smale]

Heres the lube i use for the most part. Like 44mag said lube can be a big variable in accuracy in a gun and is just as important as powder or primers but its a variable thats a pain to adjust for. I size thousands of bullets and my star has been modified to hold about 3 sticks of lube so changeing isnt an easy thing. I first make felix lube. Its a great lube as is but i store alot of bullets and in the heat its alot like javalina and doesnt hold up well to long term strorage in the the heat. So after i make a big batch i fill a coffee can about 2/3s full Then i add about a half a cup of corduba car wax and about a 1/3 of a bottle of lee tumble lube. I dont know if it helps or not but ive got a bunch of it from sizer dies i bought and never liked it on its own so dump it in my regular lube. Then what i do is add hard commercial lube like magma blue or red rooster to fill the 3 lb can. That way it gets it a little thinner and my thoughts are why add paraphin to do it as it doesnt lube if i want to add something to firm it up it might as well be a lube. IVe shot many thousands of rounds with this lube and it flat works and ive had many people ive given it to swear its the best lube theyve tried. That being said if i had to buy lube and had money id buy lbt blue soft as its a dammed good lube and lars lubes are excellent lubes too at a much cheaper price. Is lbt worth twice the price. probably not. But it is a good lube.

[DJWright]

I've had great luck with LBT and Apache Blue. I like a very soft lube that will completely fly off the bullet the moment it departs the muzzel so as not to break off intermitedly and act on the bullet like an out of balance car tire.

[Milltown353]

What is the best recipe/load for 9mm to reduce leading in 9mm autos? I'm trying to find a good load/lube combination to minimize leading in a cobra mac. I have been using unique as my primary powder.

[wiljen]

Felix + Carnauba wax seems to work for everything cept BP for me.

[Marlin Junky]

Would a harder lube work better in a fast twist barrel than a softer lube or does it matter?? By harder lube I mean one with a higher percentage of Carnauba.

Has anyone tried adding Carnauba to Javelina or another similar 50/50 lube?

MJ

[leftiye]

M.J. Felix says that you don't want too much carnauba. Some of the old recipes were as much as 40% japan wax (which is Carnauba, I've read on the lube recipe thread) though. I would think that fast twist would demand a better lube, maybe not harder. The big RPM threads lately have convinced me that the surface lead ( base, sides, and nose) on boolits deforms at much lower pressures than the BHN X1422 formula predicts. I think this reflects the heat effects on the very surface layer of atoms. This would explain why paper patched boolits are more accurate, and can go faster. So I'm saying better lubes (not necessarily more lube either) are needed to protect the surfaces. Bass Ackward's idea about lube that evaporates and cools the boolit might be a big idea in this search.

[Marlin Junky]

The BHNx1422 formula doesn't consider rate of twist. The steeper the rifling pitch, the more stress on the skin of the bullet but I don't see how a lube can remedy this unless there is a compromise somewhere in viscosity and lubricity that would make a significant difference in our groups (with fast twist barrels).

MJ

[leftiye]

Maybe I'm being naive, but I was kinda thinking that better lube would help engraving, lower friction (and therefore lower heat= better surface hardness), and maybe overcome somewhat the extra pressure required to engrave and turn the boolit. A large part of the fast twist accuracy/velocity problem is probly due to the extra deformation incurred at engraving. Surface lube on the ogive might help too (seems to help sometimes, and not help other times).

[Marlin Junky]

I don't know leftiye but I see it as a torque problem in fast twist barrels. I'm currently trying to get good accuracy at over 1900 fps from a 12" twist .350RM and I don't know whether to harden my lube with more carnauba or leave it alone. Maybe it will be easier to decide after I fire lap with a Tubb's Final Finish kit. The way I see it is that the bullet wants to go straight and the rifling wants to turn it so I don't understand how any lube is going to help matters much when it comes to overcoming too much torque.

MJ

[leftiye]

If you are right and it's sheer torque causing the boolit to deform, the only chance you have is a stronger alloy. The reason for this is that what you are describing is the metal failing. Maybe using straight linotype, or adding copper or silver could cure this (cost mght be exorbitant). If the boolits aren't yet at the fail stress, then you're dealing with the more usual type of deformation.

For my money, the rock hard boolits needed to shoot the really high velocities are counter productive if you plan to hunt with those same boolits. On the other hand, it is possible I believe to get enough velocity that some hydrostatic shock will happen with flat nosed boolits. The fly in the ointment is that the flat nose slows the boolit down real fast, defeating your purpose. Good luck.

[BABore]

I don't know leftiye but I see it as a torque problem in fast twist barrels. I'm currently trying to get good accuracy at over 1900 fps from a 12" twist .350RM and I don't know whether to harden my lube with more carnauba or leave it alone. Maybe it will be easier to decide after I fire lap with a Tubb's Final Finish kit. The way I see it is that the bullet wants to go straight and the rifling wants to turn it so I don't understand how any lube is going to help matters much when it comes to overcoming too much torque.

MJ

I really don't think it's your alloy. At least not it's current hardness. It could certainly be your lube. I ran into similar situations with both my 338 Win Mag (1 in 10), and my 375 H&H (1 in 12). I was using HTWW's at 28 Bhn and a decent (slick) lube. Any time I got above 1,800-1,900 fps, groups started to open up. That's open up from 1/2 to 3/4 inch groups for 3 shots at 100 yards. When I got above 2,100 fps, groups opened to the 1 1/2 inch range. I also started to get some grey wash in the barrel. I switched to LBT Blue lube and the wash disappeared and accuracy improved slightly. Once I got up to 2,300 fps the wash returned. I was stumped and figured that was it.

As I was a new forum member here, and didn't really know many people, I PM'd the most cantankerous, ornery, stubborn fellow here that had lots of posts. He wouldn't tell me what to do, but asked lots of questions and gave me some suggestions of things to try. The first thing was alloy. He suggested that I cut my WW's with 50% pure lead and WD or OHT them. Said they get about 18-20 Bhn. How in the world would an alloy that's 8-10 Bhn softer than mine work any better? Well, I tried it and it worked. The grey wash disappeared at HV. Groups also tightened up. Through testing I've found that this alloy was more malleable, but also tougher than straight WW's. I can get it up to around 2,400 fps before things come apart on me. Both rifles now kick butt with 50/50 WWPb heat treated, LBT lube, CCI 250's, and XMP 5744. Below 2,000 fps they are both scary accurate.

In regards to firelapping your bbl, I've had nothing but success with it. BUT, not with the Tubb's kit. Both LBT and Beartooth talk about the advantages of firelapping with only 10-12 Bhn lead bullets. Beartooth gives the best argument as to why you don't want to use jacketed bullets for lapping. #1 is velocity. It takes alot more of it to push a jacketed bullet through the bore. You want to do it slow (airgun speed) like. #2 is hardness and springback. You want to lap out the rough spots on both lands and grooves, and achieve a tapered bore when done. Jacketed lapping bullets ride the bore and may not touch the groove diameter as much. This is due to their high hardness. So, they will reduce and smooth land height while doing little to the groove. When a constriction is encountered, it is worn down first. A jacketed bullet will wear on the constriction, then spring back to work on the remainder of the bbl too. A cast bullet will wear on the constriction and be sized down because of it (just like small revolver throats). It travels the rest of the bbl running small doing little cutting. With a lead lapping bullet you will get progressive cutting action and achieve a tapered bore.

I have used a Tubb's kit on a problem gun. It did smooth things up, but never improved accuracy. I can't blame the lack of improvement on the lapping as this bbl just plain sucked. I did learn alot from doing it though. With only 30 rounds it lengthened the throat by 0.037". I have heard that the jacketed bullet kits are not bad for a little throat polishing and cleanup, but I'll stick with slow cast ones. Guys that hand lap customs bbls don't use hard jacketed bullets for a lap. Just my two cents.

[felix]

Very good, BAB. ... felix

[Boomer Mikey]

BABore's comments are spot on... The Tubb kits are OK for throat work, that's what they were designed for but BHN 10-12 oversize boolits are superior.

When firelapping; less is more, you can always continue on. In many instances, 10 - 20 lapping shots will improve the situation dramatically.

Boomer

[Marlin Junky]

BABore,

Thanks for the encouraging report on 50/50 alloy which I have been meaning to try. Sound like too much Sb is the cluprit... I'd like to understand the reason though.

The firing lapping is done and it seems to have noticeably smoothed things out near the muzzle because the even film of copper left behind by 10 rounds of 140 grain Remington pistol bullets at 2400 fps (shot just after the lapping) came out easily with a few wipes of a patch soaked with Gunslick Copper Klenz. When I began the fire lapping session with the Final Finish bullets, (225 grain Sierra BT) the first five rounds were much harder to clean up after (remove the fouling). Most of the day I was scrubbing out copper like a Banshee and I've lost most of the feeling in my fingertips.

I was concerned about wear on the lands and not in the grooves but I tried this system first on a H-R in .35 Whelen before using it on a more expensive barrel. The Ruger M77 .350 "miked" .3570" to .3575" in the grooves before today's lapping and most of the FF bullets miked .3580" (a few were .3575"). I think I kept the slug I used to mike the barrel when it was new and tomorrow night, it there's time, I'll repeat the barrel miking with a virtually identical slug.

BTW, I bought one of Bearthooth's lapping kit years ago and never used it for fire lapping because the lapping compound is 320 grit

MJ

[BABore]

You can buy Clover brand lapping compound in finer grits at most any machine shop supply. All the way to 1200 grit. One of the reasons that Beartooth uses only Clover is because it is silicon carbide in a grease suspension. Silicon carbide breaks down into finer particals very easy. In otherwords, it may start at 320 grit, but in effect it's like using a finer compound.

In regards to the 50/50 alloy, yes it has to do with the antimony level. Most of the grey wash you get in a bbl is antimony. From what I understand, the antimony propagates more toward the bullets exterior. The higher the antimony, the more there is in contact with the bbl which also accelerates wear. It contributes to the bullets hardness, hardening ability, cast size, and future growth. Lowering the antimony level will reduce the maximum hardness potential. When hardness is reduced the alloy becomes less brittle and toughness is increased. Toughness and elasticity are related. IMO the alloy is more "springy" in the bbl and better able to overcome abnomalities. Where a harder (higher antimony) alloy may comform and stay that way or shear, the tougher alloy springs back slightly. This is just my opinion though and is based on working with other metals having similar characteristics.

One of the greatest benefits, that I see, is that a 50/50 mix makes a darn good hunting bullet. It's hard enough to shoot HV, yet soft and malleable enough for good expansion when heat treated. It mushrooms nicely and resists fragmenting into little tiny pieces. Ones I've tested show large fragments when they let go. You also have the option of annealing the nose for a soft point or a controlled temperature WD. I posted, awhile back, on how and why you can water drop a larger diameter bullet and get a hard shell on a softer interior. A 50/50 WW-Pb mix is not the end-all answer to everything. You can play with the proportions and come out where you want. I know that 357Max has tried a 30/70 ratio and it will harden to 16-17 Bhn. Similar to the hardness of #2 alloy, but totally different shooting and expansion characteristics.

[Lloyd Smale]

BaBore i really enjoy your posts. You surely do amaze me with your knowlege. Only argument i can make to the is high alloy antimony lead bullets wearing on your barrel. I shot alot and alot of my guns for years shot nothing but 5050 ww/lyno bullets. Most now i use #2 as my lineotype is getting about impossible to find. Ive done tons of penetration testing with just about every alloy and into about every possible media that ive heard of to test in. Ive never seen wear in a barrel from antimony and the only guns that ever got a grey wash were ones with rough barrels and that was fast fixed. Ive just about allways got better accuracy with 5050 bullets then any alloy. Weve tested 4 1911s and two 25 smiths. and inother test using 3 29s and one ruger 44 and tested both times using 4 alloys from 5050 ww/pure up to 5050 ww/lyno and with at least 2 different bulelts and 2 different powders. With only one exception the 5050 ww/lyn bullets outshot them all. One 1911 had its favorite load with ww with 2%tin.

Now i know that isnt a sceintific test but my buddy Al keeps records better then anyone ive see and test probably more variables in a gun then anyone i know. He looked over some of his records after that test and found that it look like in most of his guns that accuracy improved with hardness. Now you also have keep in mind that about none of my guns are stock guns. there all at least gone over to make sure everything is right and a good portion are line bored match barreled guns. Ill stand behind my thought that a well made gun with proper allgnment and and a good barrel will consistant shoot better with harder alloys.

The 5050 bullets at least in a big bore will usually do the best job in a penetration test too. Ive never seen a straight lineotype bullet at hand gun speeds fracture. I think though with the 5050s you have all the strenght you need to bust bone and have a tad more weight that aids in penetration. By the way i have seen water dropped bullets espcially swcs fracture. We had a rash of it at linebaugh seminar penetration test a few years ago.

Again im talking handguns here and not rifles. Its probably pure luck that i luck into good loads for my rifles as im sure no expert on them. Im also not a fan of water dropping any bullets. Like i said ive seen the fail personaly and have allways had better luck with alloyed bullets for accuracy. Someday soon though im going to have to change my casting and start water dropping. the way lineotype is drying up a guy will have no choise.

[felix]

Antimony looses it roughness as it is surrounded by tin. The more tin, the more the cover, and less the wear. Some barrels can be improved by the gray wash, depending on how bad they shoot. In time, the barrel will be broken in for more normal (cheaper) lead combos. ... felix

[carpetman]

felix---You lived in Houston next door to an engineer that was expert in lubes and gained a lot of knowledge. Just think,had you been transferred to Louisville instead of Houston, you may have lived next door to an expert in lubes and learned a different field. You may have became an expert on KY Jelly instead of bullet lubes and look what kind of questions you'd be answering now instead of about bullet lubes.

[Marlin Junky]

What HT temp range does 50/50 (clip-on [CO] WW/Pb) respond to?

For example: I have some high tin content alloy (COWW metal and solder [bar and wire]) that air cools to BHN 17.5-18 and it doesn't harden when convection baked for an hour at 450F. Convection baking at 475F will bump its hardness into the 20-21 range after three or so days.

MJ

[felix]

Well, I should have, Ray! I am in need of that formulation these days. Back then that stuff was for coating holes in the ground so they could pull up little folks who fell in by some strange happening. That was all over the news 10 years ago? Around Waco? ... felix

[Marlin Junky]

KY Jelly... don't you guys in the south spread that on biscuits? I suppose you've heard that one before though.

MJ

[Ricochet]

Well, I should have, Ray! I am in need of that formulation these days. Back then that stuff was for coating holes in the ground so they could pull up little folks who fell in by some strange happening. That was all over the news 10 years ago? Around Waco? ... felix
A bit over 20 years ago, near Midland:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_McClure

[Marlin Junky]

Before we get too far off topic, maybe someone can provide input to post #39.

Thanks,
MJ

[leftiye]

Ideal heat treating happens at the highest oven setting that won't slump (begin to melt) yer boolits. I use 50/50 WW/pure and I heat treat at 450 degrees (by MY OVEN). At 475 in MY oven the bullets become blobs that vaguely resemble boolits. Any little shiny balls of lead smeared on the tray shold also be seen as being too hot.

[felix]

Yep, that name rings a bell, Ricochet! No kidding, KY Jelly was procured from every source in the state. It took an army of folks 'round the clock squeezing those little tubes. The factory making the stuff did not have a means to make a 55 gallon drum's worth in time from the factory. The factory did replace all that was used from each "store" at no charge, however. Big time news at that time, as per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_McClure. ... felix

[carpetman]

felix---I doubt that a 55 gallon drum would sell to too many. Sure wouldnt get repeat business as they would soon be dead.

[felix]

I bet Walmart would have enough in little tubes in their warehouses (today) to easily make a 55 gallon drum's worth, especially using all of their customers just in one store for one hour! Too bad Walmart was just a bit smaller 20 years ago. I bet there were only 5 stores at the time in the entire Houston area. Gosh, as of right now, we have 5 stores here in Fort Smith, three of which are super centers. ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

This is a good thread. It basically shows that you must have the right tool for the job. And just because you fire lap anything, you are only covering two of the three variables for accuracy.

Finish, dimensional perfection and then barrel vibration are the three variables. I use the Tubbs kit for finish. I use lead for dimensional correction. But after everything, you still must deal with vibration.

I wrote in another post of how a match grade barrel was terrible as a 308 Win. But chambered out to a 308 Norma, this thing was astounding. The friction created by the internal finish established a vibration pattern that could NOT be reached by the 308. My 223 began life as a 220 Swift on a Match grade barrel. IT was lousy as a 220 Swift at 1 1/2". Cut off 2" and re-chambered, it is now 1/2" or less. The vibration pattern here went the opposite way.

No, you have to understand what you are trying to correct. But velocity isn't necessarily the enemy. It's pressure that does the cutting, polishing. You can cut worse with 600 grit than 220 grit with only a minor velocity change. And your powder selection choice is critical. Copper minimizes this. And the pure lead center does not produce spring back if the pressure behind it is low enough. But instructions with the TUbbs kit wants obturation the entire length of the bore, so velocity is higher.

Another potential problem with lead is that you are shooting at low velocity which produces low to no barrel vibration. This means that you cut a straight hole, (except for recoil) but this may be counter productive. Where a copper slug, running at closer to actual velocity ranges that you will be shooting will cut a hole that .... flows with the vibration pattern of the barrel. When you use lead, you will alter the vibration pattern that may make things worse. It depends on what that barrel needs to perform at the level you want to perform.

Handguns don't have barrel vibration. But they DO have recoil. As that slug takes time to pass, the gun is rising and that slug is cutting harder on the bottom portions of the bore. And the most common fear is that of a stuck slug. SO errors are made on the high side. Minor, but it is there. The end result is usually so dramatic in improvement for a bad handgun, that who cares about the extra cutting. A Tubb Kit at higher velocity minimizes this.

Clearly a Tubbs kit is for finish and for very minor dimensional issues. IF your problem was solely dimensional, chances are the Tubbs kit didn't complete the job. But it is also the most idiot proof system and therefore great as a first step in the diagnosis process. What if we guess wrong? If that fails, you can move to lead for Plan B to correct dimensional issues which will be .... more aggressive. You move up a sliding scale.

Remember, 10 - 12 BHN obturates with as little as 12,000 psi. That grit holding that slug back while it cuts holds that pressure up higher and longer than what we often think. And when it hits a constriction of any consequence, that slug slows dramatically and you cut more aggressively in front of the problem. :grin: So you first lap out the constriction or twist rate issue, and then you must lap out the barrel to remove the bulge you put in it. :grin: Plus, you run the risk of a stuck projectile if you are too slow. So there is no free lunch. But beginning with a Tubbs kit removes this potential problem as there is less reason to slow the lead slug if you need to do this later.

When you come to the point that you decide you NEED to do something, you essentially have decided the gain is worth more than the loss. I am comfortable with what I do and utilize this regularly. Clearly a fire lapped barrel with a Tubbs kit is superior in my eyes to the finest hand lap as it goes in one direction and only works where it is needed. Just like shooting a normal jacketed slug that fire laps too, just slower. But I have the flexibility to set the barrel back too if necessary.

Point of all this is to understand what you "think" you need to do. In the end it's a guess. But the last thing I want in a HV rifle is a tapered bore. But if the problem is blowby, like many handguns, then it would solve that issue. Again proper diagnosis is the key to problem solving for THAT barrel. The right tool for the job will bring about the best results. Hopefully.

[BABore]

What HT temp range does 50/50 (clip-on [CO] WW/Pb) respond to?

For example: I have some high tin content alloy (COWW metal and solder [bar and wire]) that air cools to BHN 17.5-18 and it doesn't harden when convection baked for an hour at 450F. Convection baking at 475F will bump its hardness into the 20-21 range after three or so days.

MJ

I use 435 F for one hour, then quench.

Lloyd,

In regards to the wear factor, I was basing this on straight WW alloy. Relativily high antimony to tin ratio as Felix said.

[Boomer Mikey]

I haven't tried them all but I have reduced my inventory to two lubes to simplify my needs.

For low to medium velocity (1800 fps) any of the 50/50 NRA formula lubes. The Lar45's lubes are an outstanding value and as good as any I've used. I have a lifetime supply of Felix lube supplied to me by a good friend and it works well too.

For everything else I use LBT Blue... it has never let me down. The only reason I tried many, many other lubes is because I ran out of it when it wasn't available, I keep at least 30 sticks of it in the drawer nowadays.

Boomer :Fire: