Who's Jeff Cooper?!?

[Sweetpea]

So I was in the local sportsman's warehouse yesterday doing some legwork for my father as he is planning on purchasing a pistol when he comes to visit next weekend... another fellow was at the counter, asking about calibers, and I brought up Jeff Cooper's views... and the guy working behind the HANDGUN COUNTER had no bloody idea who I was talking about!

Does not instill the utmost confidence!

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Not everyone who works at a gas station knows what a distributor cap is either. Maybe he is just another of those who are still learning about the firearms world.
As a young feller growing up in Riverside, Michigan I would not have know the correct answer. Not until I was a NRA member did that name become part of my circle of knowledge.
Mike in ILL.

[Reg]

A lot of people just do not understand history. Quite often there is a path from point A to point B and quite often it has been blazed by someone. Jeff C of course, was one of those who blazed the way and made the path. Townsend Whelen, Elmer Keith, Charles Askins, Jack O'Conner and many, many others all laid the ground work to what we call the shooting sports that we have today.
The same yokel might also not have any idea of Thomas Jefferson or Thomas Paine as well.
No doubt a product of our modern education system.

[Sweetpea]

A lot of people just do not understand history.
No doubt a product of our modern education system.

This gentleman was probably 10 years my senior (40ish) and was working selling people handguns.

If you do not research good qualities and bad, how can you possibly try to sell something without sounding like an idiot?

I do not work in the industry at all, but I try to read anything of value that I can get a hold of.

[btroj]

I shoot some handgun. I know who Jeff Cooper was but don't really care. I wasnt a worshipper of him at all.

I never asked my PH in Africa if he knew who Capstick or Ruark are. Didn't matter, he knew his business and that is what mattered.

Not all shooters read gun rags. I rarely read anything where Coer might have been published. Never read his stuff. Never followed him. And now I discover it means I don't know dirt about handguns. Oh well.

[Sweetpea]

And now I discover it means I don't know dirt about handguns. Oh well.[/QUOTE]

Wow! That was a jump!



I would postulate that no other man save John Moses Browning has done more to contribute to the advancement of semi auto pistols.

I would think somebody in the business of selling them would have heard of him.

[wrench man]

If you do not research good qualities and bad, how can you possibly try to sell something without sounding like an idiot?

Sure you weren't at Cabela's?

[darkroommike]

So I was in the local sportsman's warehouse yesterday doing some legwork for my father as he is planning on purchasing a pistol when he comes to visit next weekend... another fellow was at the counter, asking about calibers, and I brought up Jeff Cooper's views... and the guy working behind the HANDGUN COUNTER had no bloody idea who I was talking about!

Does not instill the utmost confidence!

Here's the thing, I used to sell camera, camera salesmen, as a rule, do not know that much about photography, they study cameras. Same thing, gun sales, new guns are introduced all the time, to be a good gun salesman you need to stay on top of your product and availability.

And to sell guns, you have to sell the guns in your case rather than get into endless debates with "lookie lou's" that are killing time while the wife is getting a perm. Cooper, Keith, Wheelan and the guns they used are not going to be the guns I need to sell today to put meat on my table. It's possible that the salesman is very knowledgeable about Jeff Cooper but also very experienced about what happens if he gets deflected from his job into a discussion about gun gurus.

[brstevns]

You forgot Pete Brown and Skeeter Shelton

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

It would be interesting to work in a firearms retail store where there are no used items in stock. If you have been in retail very long, you should know that used firearms are where the store makes the most money. To maximizer ROI you need to be able to evaluate firearms based on history as well as condition. You also need to be able to evaluate the potential customer standing in front of you. If they want to talk about Cooper, you should be able to as well.

[W.R.Buchanan]

It is true that knowledge of the past is not necessarily needed to do a job, but it certainly can enhance your ability to do that job.

Unfortunately this concept is being lost in schools. Just as the history of our country is being modified to suit whatever agenda is being promoted.

The cream rises to the top and there will always be people who have a superior level of knowledge about certain things. The problem really becomes being able to figure out who actually knows what they are talking about and who is FOS.

Randy

[btroj]

If you expect to go into a gun store and find a person who is knowledgable on everything then you are a fool.

It is a job. These stores hire people to sell something. They aren't there to be experts on every person who has ever been an "expert" on a subject.

I don't read Cooper's work because I don't care to. I just don't get excited over the self defense writings. I am not a huge fan of heavily loaded 1911s. I don care how you are supposed to carry a 1911. Just doesn't matter to me.
What I do want to know is how to make a 1911 shoot. I want load data for cast bullets. I would far rather read info from a bullseye shooter. I bet most bullseye shooters aren't real up to speed on Cooper either but they sure know how to make a 1911 shoot.

It comes down to what interests each person. A guy Ina gun shop may be a pheasant hunter or trap shooter. He doesn't know about Cooper but he knows his shotguns. Does that make him incapable of selling handguns?

The days of a gun shop being run by fun fanatics are done. Particularly large shops. The people who work there have a job. It doesn't mean they are experts on any area related to shooting.

I don't go to Menards and expect to find a professional carpenter. I don't go to the automotive section at Walmart and expect to find a master mechanic. Why would I expect the guy at Scheels selling guns to be a gun expert in a specific area? Or in all areas?

[Sweetpea]

btroj, I am more than willing to discuss why we should expect quality knowledge from people selling us something.

If I take my gun to a smith to have some work done, I want to know that he knows what he is doing and talking about.

If you are just going to get immediately offended, or insult people, feel free not to respond.

[btroj]

The guy at Cabelas selling guns has a job selling guns. He may not even own any firearms.

While I would love itif they were knowledgable I have grown to not expect it. I have learned ove the years expecting people to be truly experts on things is a good way to be disappointed.

For years I had large numbers of tropical fish. While one shop had an owner who was passionate about fish most large shops had employees who just had a job. They may have had a small tank with common fish but I quickly learned not to expect much from them.

As for going to a gunsmith, I expect him to know his job. I want him to be able to make things work. I do not expect a 1911 expert to be able to resolver a pair of barrels for an old double.

We all have specific areas of knowledge. While we all would like to think we are in the norm more often than not we are not. Most shooters who are aware of Cooper probably are more dangerous with that knowledge than without it. They are more likely to be mall ninjas that true afficianados who truly grasp what he was saying.

You went to a mass merchandising store. They hire whoever applies. Knowledge isn't a requirement. Actually, lots of gun knowledge is a detriment as that might cost extra money. These guys aren't making big bucks and I bet turnover can be high. If they aren't truly in the know I would prefer they not know much. Nothing is worse than someone who doesn't know but thinks he does. I don't want smoke blown up my rectal orifice by some mall ninja.

I agree it would be nice if they were competent. I would love it. Sadly, we all want low prices and that means low pay. Low pay means we get the knowledge level we pay for. Many of us here would pay more for the knowledge but we aren't the norm in gun buyers. Most gun buyers know less than the guy you ran into. Now that ought to frighten you!

I

[Sweetpea]

btroj, thank you.

I understand your point of view, and why things are the way they are... it just doesn't make it right.

[gandydancer]

Times gone by. Dust in the wind. years from now who will know or care? ask a 20 year old who Roy Rogers was? and your answer will be "Roy who?" GD

[Hamish]

sweetpea, I am hard pressed to see where bt got offended or insulted anyone. And just because you don't see it his way does not make him wrong.

[Sweetpea]

And just because you don't see it his way does not make him wrong.

I agree. He just has a different opinion.

Maybe you skipped his earlier posts. The latest one was polite and concise. And appreciated.

I am not asking for everybody to agree with me. That would be boring.

[btroj]

I didn't intend to be insulting at all.

I just don't expect to get a person who knows much about guns when I go to a gun shop. Matter of fact, I prefer they know nothing. I hate experts who don't know diddly.

I will say I don't think a guy knowing who Cooper is makes him incapable of having knowledge. Cooper was a guy who was more a proponent of firearm usage than loading or technical skill. He also has a very specific area of concern. Not many outside the CCW or combat arenas are likely to be a follower. I never read the gun rags he tended to write for so I actually know very little about him. While I am no expert on handguns I probably know more than most big box gun sop employees.

Times have a changed boys. We don't have long time gun nuts working in gun shops anymore. The guys working there are after a pay check. It is a job, not a passion.

Bet the knowledge level at most gun shows isn't much better but the BS level is much higher!

[Sweetpea]

While I am no expert on handguns I probably know more than most big box gun sop employees.

Bet the knowledge level at most gun shows isn't much better but the BS level is much higher!

btroj, I guess this is pretty much my original point. I expect to ask questions and learn, but when I have to educate the "pros" that just seems wrong. Not just about Cooper, I used that as an easily recognizable reference. When it seems that they don't know the difference between a 1911 and a glock, there is a problem.

I will do my best in the future to patronize the "mom and pops" stores more.

[MT Chambers]

Sometimes people throw names around to make people think they know what they are talking about.

[Sweetpea]

Sometimes people throw names around to make people think they know what they are talking about.

agreed

think as you wish

[btroj]

That is why I always assume they know nothing. I hate people who blow smoke in places it doesn't belong.

[Fishman]

Lol my local gun shop IS the Ace Hardware Store. It's within walking distance of my office. They have at least three knowledgeable folks who alternate staffing the gun shop. Yes it is as awesome as it sounds. Y'all are welcome to come visit.


The advent of mass merchandisers changed the way in which many of our everyday products are sold. With the exception of Mom and Pop stores, gone are the days when stores employed salespeople who were willing to help, knew their product, and how to sell it. Today, the mass merchandisers hire clerks (many times untrained, illiterate, unmotivated, uncommunicative, illeducated) and pay them a minimum wage.

When I go into Home Depot I don't expect an employee to know what a widget is, much less on what aisle it's located. When I go into an Ace Hardware store, not only will the employee walk me to where the various widgets are displayed, he'll gladly explain the differences.

Want to discuss Jeff Cooper? Don't go to a mass merchandiser.

[jmort]

Cooper is worth remembering if only for the "Four Rules" of gun safety.

[Sweetpea]

Cooper is worth remembering if only for the "Four Rules" of gun safety.

thanks, jmortimer, I am certainly not a Cooper fanatic, but I believe in giving credit where due...

[btroj]

He didn't write for Precision Shooting, Handloader, or Rifle so I never read his stuff?

I'm sure it was valuable and entertaining for those who read it. I just don't read the shooting times and the other "normal" gun rags. I prefer a bit more meat.

[winelover]

Wasn't he the obnoxious SOB that had the last page in Guns & Ammo that I always skipped over?

Winelover

[1bluehorse]

I know who Roy Rogers is/was.....so who's Jeff Cooper?

[1Shirt]

Regarding Btroj comments, most of the salespersons behind the gun counter at our local Cabellas, seem to have a law enforcement background. Few of them have much if any knowledge of rifles, reloading, ammo, ballistics etc. They are often knowledgable of handguns to a degree, but only then based upon law enforcement experiance. Rural LEO's are usually well informed regarding all kinds of firearms, a high percentage are hunters, target shooters, and reloaders. Not so much is the case with those who have a city background, are not hunters, or target shooters, or reloaders. I asked a former LEO who retired from the Omaha P.D. for a can of 2400, and he didn't know what I was talking about. I also do not expect sales personnel to be overly knowedgable of their products. And when it comes to sales personnel selling firearms, I expect limited if any expertise beyond very general knowledge.
1Shirt!

[1Shirt]

I never cared for Cooper or his articles! He was knowledgable, but obnixious.
1Shirt!

[OuchHot!]

I wouldn't expect many nowadays to know or care who Cooper was. I think that some who consider themselves Cooper followers probably know very little about the man. He was also a historian, philosopher, father/husband and avid hunter. Yeah, he was probably not someone many would want to be stuck with in an elevator. Times change and Gunsite actually has moved its training some distance from where I think Cooper would have wanted. Cooper was not the best business person (his wife probably kept the Gunsite business going, truth be told). I have great appreciation for Cooper but don't take it personally that a mass market store is staffed with people who don't recognize the name. I am sorry that his philosophy is not more mainstream. I am glad that he is not here to see where the country has gone. But then I don't give a rat's behind about o'connor or keith so what do I know? :p

[DRNurse1]

I think every hunter, competitive shooter, gun owner, and firearm advocate contributes to our culture and general knowledge in their own way. However not all of these folks are published. Do what you can to contribute positively to those around you and, maybe someday, we can read about your contributions on the back page of Guns and Ammo.

[tejano]

I used to read his columns. Sometimes he annoyed me and sometimes he educated me. He had strong opinions and knew how to articulate them. Col. Cooper earned two University degrees and served our country in two wars. He wrote and shot with distinction. I kind of doubt that he would care one whit what anybody else thought or said of him. Just my "dos centavos."

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I wonder how many who read these pages know who Phil Sharpe was? While Elmer Kieth was not at all bashful about heaping praise on himself for such things as the driving force behind the 44mag when it was actually Sharpe who did most of the the research and worked with gun companies to bring it into production. Kieth didn't even own a cronograph much less pressure testing equipment. Sharpe's problem was the fact that he was a shy unassuming person.

[OuchHot!]

He once referred to this being the age of the whimp. He was certainly no whimp. He had a fine sense of humor as well. There is a sabre tooth tiger skull on the mantle; "I was younger, then"

[OuchHot!]

My problem with Keith is my own personality defect. I am sure he was a he-man in every way and the product of a very hard early life. The self marketing got to me. I read the account of the trip to Africa with the 333 and jeepers, they lost more wounded game than Roosevelt! But the 333 was a resounding success? Yeah, it was bullet failure with the 333. But with Cooper, you got the unvarnished truth as he saw it and he did not sugar coat things that did not work out.

[km101]

Gentlemen, we are talking about retail here. By definition one of the lowest paid positions in sales. I have worked in both a gun shop and at Bass Pro Slhop. (everyone has a skeleton or two in their closet.) and I can assure you that in most cases employees are not hired for thier product knowledge, but for their willingness to accept a low paying job. In most of the multi-line sporting goods retailers (Dick's, Bass Pro, Cabella's, Sportsmans Warehouse, etc.) the employee you are talking to at the gun counter may have been working in the shoe dept, or clothing, or canping dept. last week. And when he was transferred to the hunting/outdoor dept. he received the minimal in product training, because that is all the budget and/or manager had available. It's sad but true, but most retail employees have the minimum of product knowledge and usually what they have is acquired on the job from contact with customers. It is a rare employee in retail that knows his stuff.

Now it has been my experience that gun ships are a different matter. I have found most gun shop employees to be reasonably knowledgeable and helpfun as you would exspect. Just my $.02

[starmac]

I am absolutely no expert, but I have owned guns and used guns for over 40 years, and cooper is not what I would call a household name. In fact I do not ever remember reading any of his articles, I probably have but if so it never made a lasting impression. I have never worked in any gun related profession either though.

[Leadmelter]

Don't forget the Lee E. Jurras of Super Vel, Automag, IHMSA, etc.
Leadmelter
MI

[Bwana]

Never spoke to Col Cooper, however I did speak with his wife on the phone while trying to contact him. She was as sweet and gracious as anyone I have ever spoken with. We talked for about 15 minutes and at the end she again expressed regret that I had missed the Col.

I have a copy of this somewhere in the "stacks". Bought it new and read it cover to cover many times.

http://www.amazon.com/Cooper-handguns-Jeff/dp/0822700670

[btroj]

Who we followed as far as writers go has much to do with who was relevant at the time we were actively shooting and who wrote about the specific areas of shooting we were interested in.

As far as reality goes, Ken was dead on. These people have a job. Doesn't mean they are really interested in what they sell. Not all car salesmen are gear heads.

[9.3X62AL]

It is distressing to learn that a counter guy or gal isn't aware of who Col. Cooper was, but you do get what you pay for.

I had the HUGE privilege of meeting Col. Cooper at age 17, and had no idea at the time of his place in the firearms/gunscribe world. He was a regular customer at the gas station/garage I worked at, which was located at the foot of the mountains leading to his Big Bear Lake home and shooting site. Both he and Mrs. Cooper were very nice people, customers who you enjoyed helping in any way possible.

One day during summer football practice I hadn't had time to return my shotgun to the house after a morning dove hunt and afternoon practice. I didn't want to leave the shotgun in the truck out of view, so I stood the cased 12 gauge in the office's far corner, away from the door, and locked the office. Col. Cooper happened to roll in for fuel, and as he got out of the car he apparently saw the cased gun. He asked, "Are you expecting trouble?" and looked in the direction of the shotgun. I told him "No, I didn't have time to take the gun home after hunting earlier." His whole demeanor changed, he smiled broadly, and asked me to tell him about the day's hunt--which wasn't anything memorable, just a walk through sycamores and junipers to kick out doves or cottontails.

From that day forward, Col. Cooper never failed to ask if I'd been hunting whenever he stopped for gas. I usually had, and the conversation extended to education, career plans, and occasionally general shooting, but I wasn't a handgunner then and I don't recall handguns being discussed in detail. To me, he was just a nice older man that took time to talk with a 17-18 year old kid about things we both loved--hunting and shooting. It was only later, after I left that job and became a handgun shooter and LEO, that I understood what a privilege I had extended to me.

[btroj]

It was that distressing? 4 times?

Oops, 5 times. My bad.

[Bent Ramrod]

As I recall, Col. Cooper addressed the issue himself. He divided society into four parts, sort of like the Hindu caste system. His categories, though, were:

1. The intellectuals, who are primarily concerned with ideas and concepts.

2. The warriors, who are primarily concerned with matters of personal honor.

3. The plutocrats, who are primarily concerned with marketing and acquisition.

and

4. The lemmings, who are primarily concerned with the doings of other lemmings.

Given that Col. Cooper was in Category 2, you might go back and ask the clerk if he knows who Justin Bieber and Kim Kardashian are. If the answer is "yes," you have to ask yourself why would the clerk know who Jeff Cooper was?

[OuchHot!]

OK, I am clearly out of my depth; who the H*** is Justin Kardashian?

[Doc65]

Just MY opinion, but that would be what you get when you cross a no talent Cougar(still can't remember/figure how that family became a household name) with a no talent bubblegum sensation Cub

Again, no offense, just MY OPINION

[tejano]

As I recall, Col. Cooper addressed the issue himself. He divided society into four parts, sort of like the Hindu caste system. His categories, though, were:

1. The intellectuals, who are primarily concerned with ideas and concepts.

2. The warriors, who are primarily concerned with matters of personal honor.

3. The plutocrats, who are primarily concerned with marketing and acquisition.

and

4. The lemmings, who are primarily concerned with the doings of other lemmings.

Given that Col. Cooper was in Category 2, you might go back and ask the clerk if he knows who Justin Bieber and Kim Kardashian are. If the answer is "yes," you have to ask yourself why would the clerk know who Jeff Cooper was?

Muy bueno! :)

[76 WARLOCK]

I have four of Jeff Coopers books and I read all of his articles I could find in the sixties and seventies. a military or police officer that does not know of Coopers work are missing a big part of their education.

[jmort]

I'm surprised at all the animus towards the good Colonel. He devised the "Four Rules" and came up with the "Four Conditions." To simplify safety rules and mental alertness rules so that a more complex subject becomes simple and useful is a rare thing indeed. So everyone knows what he did, even if they don't know who he is. To me he was a Gentleman and a Teacher.

[Rio Grande]

Jeff Cooper? Isn't he the guy that liked those new-fangled 1911 self-loading pistols?

I liked him. His yes was a yes, and his no, a no. I admire him for supporting the Rhodesians in their war against the reds.

[runfiverun]

cooper wasn't just a handgun guy he did a lot of ammunition evaluation for shotshells too.

if i walked into a chevy dealership to buy a new truck i wouldn't expect the salesman to be able to give me a 50 year ago history on the designer of the corvette.
or a ford salesman to be able to tell me why their fender openings are so large.
or the dodge dealers salesman to be able to tell me why the daytona was only allowed to run on the nascar circuit for only one season.
[i know the answer to all of those questions] but their ability to answer those questions would not influence my decision on which vehicle to buy.

[Bardo]

If you are talking about the St. George Sportsmans I dont ask for help when I go in, and I dont let them do anything to my gun like mount a scope. I have seen them mount a scope with 2 different sizes of rings. And also 2 different times they have leaned a gun against the counter and knocked it on the floor when I have been there. I dont ask there opinions because I dont care what they think and usually I know more about the topic and dont want to get stuck talking to a talker for 15 min. But I do buy powder from them, they have a good selection in 8lbs kegs and I am glad they are in town. They also stock a couple other things that no one else dose in town. There are a few better gun shops in town that are locally owned and most the guys know there stuff in certian areas. I do know who Cooper is but not suprised no one in Sportmans did.

Bardo

[Reg]

It is distressing to learn that a counter guy or gal isn't aware of who Col. Cooper was, but you do get what you pay for.

I had the HUGE privilege of meeting Col. Cooper at age 17, and had no idea at the time of his place in the firearms/gunscribe world. He was a regular customer at the gas station/garage I worked at, which was located at the foot of the mountains leading to his Big Bear Lake home and shooting site. Both he and Mrs. Cooper were very nice people, customers who you enjoyed helping in any way possible.

One day during summer football practice I hadn't had time to return my shotgun to the house after a morning dove hunt and afternoon practice. I didn't want to leave the shotgun in the truck out of view, so I stood the cased 12 gauge in the office's far corner, away from the door, and locked the office. Col. Cooper happened to roll in for fuel, and as he got out of the car he apparently saw the cased gun. He asked, "Are you expecting trouble?" and looked in the direction of the shotgun. I told him "No, I didn't have time to take the gun home after hunting earlier." His whole demeanor changed, he smiled broadly, and asked me to tell him about the day's hunt--which wasn't anything memorable, just a walk through sycamores and junipers to kick out doves or cottontails.

From that day forward, Col. Cooper never failed to ask if I'd been hunting whenever he stopped for gas. I usually had, and the conversation extended to education, career plans, and occasionally general shooting, but I wasn't a handgunner then and I don't recall handguns being discussed in detail. To me, he was just a nice older man that took time to talk with a 17-18 year old kid about things we both loved--hunting and shooting. It was only later, after I left that job and became a handgun shooter and LEO, that I understood what a privilege I had extended to me.


You Sir, were one very lucky young man. Treasure those memories.

[jmort]

^ +1 on that

[Stephen Cohen]

Funny in this country I think you would be hard pressed to find a sales person who dont know of Jeff Cooper. I didnt agree with all his words, but he did give one cause to think. Thats what makes this sport so enjoyable, the willingness to share ideas. I must admit I did finally share his love of the 45 acp and 1911.

[btroj]

I have been shooting quite actively for 30 years. I could tell you who Cooper was and little more. I couldn't tell you much about his writings at all. Never read them.
I have read a fair amount of Keith's writings. Own a few of his books.

We read what interests us. I don't spend lots of time reading up on combat style shooting or 1911s. Just doesn't fit my shooting interests.

And Run, I don't have a clue on any of your answers. A car is a mode of transportation to me. Nothing more. And NASCAR? Never watch it, my parents weren't related before they got married.....

[starmac]

That is just wrong. lol

Runfiverun Do you know who Sierra Jackson is. I Don't watch nascar, but do like the small town tracks. Her main track is at meridian, but she travels a lot, or used two.