Thinnest 44-40 brass?

[KirkD]

Since this is a very specific question, I wanted to start it on a separate thread from the other, more general brass thread. I need the thinnest neck thickness I can get to chamber oversize bullets in my 44-40. I would be grateful if fellows here could measure the neck wall thickness for new, unfired brass from Winchester, Starline, and Remington. I had thought Winchester was the thinnest, but it has been suggested that Starline is, which would be great. Before I order a batch, however, I'd be grateful for some actual dimensions of say 3 or 4 examples from each manufacturer. I have no unfired brass to do this.

Winchester: average neck thickness for 3 different cases = .0065 (Update)

Starline: average neck thickness for 3 different cases = .0066 (Update)

Remington: average neck thickness for 3 different cases =

[fouronesix]

The only 44-40 brass I have is Starline.
Measured three cases using ball mic. Took mid-neck measurements at three places around the neck of each. Averaged those, then averaged the means.
Ave is .0066" I feel pretty confident that is representative for this lot of Starline.

[smithywess]

Kirk,

I share your view that WW brass at least in .44-40 and .38-40 are the thinnest by trial if not measurement. A model 1889 Marlin in .44-40 of mine slugged .430" and even with WW brass a bullet sized to .431" would not chamber. Same with a .38-40 in the same model Marlin which slugged .409", as I recall, and wouldn't chamber bullets sized to .410". I had throating reamers made up for both calibres and dummy rounds in both calibres loaded in WW, Starline, R.P. and Dominion brass. With perhaps a 270 degree turn of the reamers or thereabouts the cartridges loaded with WW brass would chamber but not the others. I actually advanced the reamer until the Dominion brass would chamber in case I ever found Dominion brass again. The sequence of chambering as the reamers were advanced were, as I say, WW, Starline, Remington and finally the Dominion which was the thickest I tried. Even with seated bullets to one thousandths of an inch overbore and chambered successfully my groups were still in the region of about a couple of inches at 45 yards and were squeezed down to an inch by the addition,in both calibres, of a compressed amount of polyshot buffer over the powder which was IMR 4227 in all my tests. I am a fan of reaming the throats of these overbore calibres (previously blackpowder) and had good success with two .40-65's (Marlin 1895's) using the same principles although I don't use a filler with these as IMR 4198 fills the cases to 80% capacity. Now I have another .44-40 in a Marlin model '94 built in 1906 (smokeless era now) which slugs .427" and a bullet sized .429" chambers quite nicely in WW brass without reaming the chamber's throat but not with Starline, R-P or Dominion. I load the cartridge in the same way as the other .44-40 with IMR 4227 and Poly Shot Buffer and achieving the same accuracy.

FWIW. Thanks

[KirkD]

Thank you, men, for those replies. I have been using Winchester brass and with a .431 bullet, it slides in but is very slightly snug. If Starline is thinner walled, then I'd prefer those. I just want to get some input before ordering on Monday.

[Jon K]

Ditto...Ditto WW brass is thinner and chambers easy, in my 1894 Marlin 44-40 circa 1902. I use a .4305 boolit. Groove diameter is .430. My average measurement for WW is .0065. Starline & Remington don't chamber well...too tight.

Jon

[runfiverun]

what die set are you using that will allow a 431 boolit?
my old rcbs set won't let me seat over .428.

[Four Fingers of Death]

My 44/40 brass is all Winchester. I don't have any fancy measuring tools, but it must be thin because it sels off the neck nicely on firing and the cases are always pretty clean. The necks also collapse at the drop of a hat (I think if you slammed the door they would cave in,haha,just like slamming an oven door on a sponge cake!), so they's thin!

The only other brand I have used is Magtec and they are made of brass foil I think, if it was any thinner, yo could wrap a mouse's lunch in them. Look sideways at them and they seperate! Grrrrrr :(

[KirkD]

Four Fingers of Death: Sounds like I'd better stay away from that Magtec stuff! :)

Runfiverun: I use Hornady dies. No problem seating .431 and even .432 bullets.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Four Fingers of Death: Sounds like I'd better stay away from that Magtec stuff! :)

Runfiverun: I use Hornady dies. No problem seating .431 and even .432 bullets.

It doesn't like a lot of leverguns either, the rims appear to be a bit thicker (probably made to Rossi 92 specs), didn't run too well in my early Uberti 1866, but runs ok in my recent made 1873,although not quiteeeeeeeeeee as smooth as the Winchester brass. I just use it for practice in my revolvers now. My friend who is a part time gun dealer came around a few months ago and presented me with a bag of 200 shiny new Magtec cases, :( I didn't have the heart to tell him I already had a thousand or so, heck how much revolver practice can a busy old guy do???? haha!

[Doc Highwall]

A friend of mine went to load some 44-40 ammo for his cousin and had the same problem. The gun was a Ruger, and Al being an engineer measured everything and showed me what he had found. First of all Ruger put a 44 Mag barrel on the gun that slugged .429", the cylinders were so tight that the max bullet diameter that could be seated into the case was .426" and this only allowed .0005" clearance around the case.
I would suggest you find somebody that can open the chamber and leave the brass as is.

[Four Fingers of Death]

A friend of mine went to load some 44-40 ammo for his cousin and had the same problem. The gun was a Ruger, and Al being an engineer measured everything and showed me what he had found. First of all Ruger put a 44 Mag barrel on the gun that slugged .429", the cylinders were so tight that the max bullet diameter that could be seated into the case was .426" and this only allowed .0005" clearance around the case.
I would suggest you find somebody that can open the chamber and leave the brass as is.

Good idea.

[KirkD]

I would suggest you find somebody that can open the chamber and leave the brass as is.
The rifle is an original Winchester Model 1873 made in 1889 and is in very nice condition, so I would not want to mess with it. I use soft cast bullets in it and will put five bullets into 1 & 15/16" at 100 yards with a .431" cast bullet (see http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?174343-Shot-my-original-Winchester-1873-on-Friday-(photos) ). I just want to make sure that when I buy some new cases, they don't force me to downsize the bullet.

[Just Duke]

I bought Winchester for BP because it's thinner and Starline for smokeless.

[Doc Highwall]

KirkD, I did not realize the rifle is an original Winchester Model 1873 so scrap that idea of mine about opening the chamber. What about buying new brass and neck turning it just enough to seat the bullet leaving a step just below the bullet base in the case?

[Just Duke]

KirkD, I did not realize the rifle is an original Winchester Model 1873 so scrap that idea of mine about opening the chamber. What about buying new brass and neck turning it just enough to seat the bullet leaving a step just below the bullet base in the case?

OH My! The 44-40 brass neckare fragile enough and I completely gave up trying to run them through a progressive press.

[fouronesix]

Kirk, It appears that Starline and WW within the lots measured, have, for all intents and purposes, the same neck wall thickness. I have some Remington 44-40s somewhere but they are older and have been reloaded too many times for any meaningful measurement. Surprised no one has any new Remingtons to measure??

[smithywess]

KirkD, I did not realize the rifle is an original Winchester Model 1873 so scrap that idea of mine about opening the chamber. What about buying new brass and neck turning it just enough to seat the bullet leaving a step just below the bullet base in the case?

Doc,

Opening the chamber throat a hair (one to two thousandths of an inch) with a .44-40 throating reamer couldn't be seen from the outside and I would defy even an expert to identify such an opening of the throat by merely looking down the chamber. It could probably only be found by measuring a chamber cast and even then who's to say the difference wasn't factory designed !! I've done it on 4 different vintage rifles ( .44-40. .38-40 and two .40-65's) to allow larger bullet seating in rifles previously developed in the blackpowder era when they cared a little less about exact chamber tolerances. That changed, of course, quite dramatically with the advent of smokeless powder which fails to obturate even very soft bullets when the manufacturers had to tighten up their tolerances (groove diameter to land diameter).

Trying to thin .44-40 neck brass would likely be an exercize in futility in view of it's paper thin consistency to start with. The case might last one reload?

Thanks. Your original suggestion was good in my view and and it's quite amazing how accurate the load can be when the bullet diameter is taken one or two thousandths of an inch over the groove diameter when loaded on top of smokeless powder. Of course this was always stressed by fine men like Ken Watters and many others.

[Doc Highwall]

When I am saying to neck turn the brass I mean to just barely clean up like maybe remove .001" just enough to allow a loaded round to chamber. You could probably even put the case on a case spinner and polish it with 600 grit sandpaper.

[KirkD]

Doc Highwall, your idea is a good one. Just thinning the neck wall by half a thou gives a thou extra to work with. I think that, just to be on the safe side, I'll order Winchester brass even though they are quite a bit more expensive than Starline. I know Winchester brass chambers in my '73 with .430 bullets, so I'll be fine.

[Sanchez]

From empirical & lab data gathered over 40yrs of reloading experience, I've learned to bank on this fact: Olin brass is the thinnest-walled & hardest.
Any caliber.
Any configuration.

[Outpost75]

The correct answer for original Winchester 1873s with tight chambers, which have large groove diameters, is to use the Accurate 43-200QL heeled bullet which is designed for this specific requirement!

The enlarged stop-ring nose is sized to fit the throat or groove diameter. The .428" heel provides the required release clearance for tight chambers, and is not touched in the sizing die, you are just applying a film of lube over it, which does no harm.

The 43-200Q has small grease groove for light cowboy loads with smokeless powder.

The 43-200QL has an ample lube groove to prevent foul-out using Goex powder.

201021

To the man with the Ruger Vaquero, I sent my cylinder to John Taylor and he reamed the chambers to enlarge the necks to .447" and cylinder throats to .4305" so that I can shoot .430" bullets in my Original Vaquero .44-40 with .429 barrel. I buy the 215-grain flatnosed .44-40 bullets from Matt's Bullets and shoot happily.