Mixing powders?

[stubert]

So, My buddy gives me 2 lbs. of powder. The problem is, he had 1 lb. of H-4831 and 1 lb. of H-4831 SC, he mixed them together in 1 can. According to the web site the 4831 and the 4831sc are identical as far as burn rate and pressure. Heres the question, can I use them mixed or do I have $50.00 worth of fertilizer? They would be loaded into a .270 Win.

[Jim]

I wouldn't use it. That's just me, though.

[1Shirt]

Be Careful!
1Shirt!

[Snyd]

If they are the "same" then why are they different?? If it were me I'd dump it.

[Skipper]

Ask Hodgdon:
913-362-9455
Fax:
913-362-1307
E-mail:
help@hodgdon.com

[root]

He mixed them he should use them.

I wouldn't well I might in my DD but that wouldn't be a launch charge just a impact charge down range. (under the BATFE 1/4 oz limit)

[KCSO]

#1 it would have to be well mixed and #2 you would have to develop your own loading data for it. Start low and work up with a chronograph and measure case head expansion if you cant pressure test and then when you are done and go back to regular powder develop a new load. It can be done but it will be a royal pain.

[stubert]

the sc stands for short cut, so it flows through measures better.

[Reg]

What are your eyes and fingers worth ? Are you feeling lucky ??

[stubert]

So, I'm have a beautiful green lawn?

[youngda9]

With friends like that, who needs enemies.

Seriously though...check with Hogdon.

[blackthorn]

The best advice you have gotten so far is to phone Hodgdon and ask! As pointed out, the SC stands for "short cut" and as far as I know the only difference between the two powders is the length of the pieces of powder, so as long as you load by WEIGHT and NOT volume you should be OK --BUT Hodgdon can verify! 50$ is a lot to throw away if you don't have to!! Take care.

[darkroommike]

So, My buddy gives me 2 lbs. of powder. The problem is, he had 1 lb. of H-4831 and 1 lb. of H-4831 SC, he mixed them together in 1 can. According to the web site the 4831 and the 4831sc are identical as far as burn rate and pressure. Heres the question, can I use them mixed or do I have $50.00 worth of fertilizer? They would be loaded into a .270 Win.

You're friend GAVE you the powder so you're not out anything unless you try to use it; damage a gun, put out an eye, etc. The lawn sounds like the best place for this accident waiting to happen.

[stubert]

Hodgdon has been E-mailed, I will post thier answer. Thanks folks.

[Moonman]

You don't need to email anyone.

You're VIOLATING one of the primary rules of reloading, DO NOT MIX POWDERS.

The next one would be DON'T ACCEPT OPEN CONTAINERS OF POWDER FROM ANYONE.

You can get HURT or even KILLED from reloading I hope you do know.

[fredj338]

You could start low & work up, but they are NOT identical. You alos don't really know if it was IMR or H4831 he mixed, he may not even remember. The sc version will certainly burn at a diff rate than the std cut & IMR & H4831 are not the same at all. Your gun but IMO, powder is cheap.

[Wolfer]

If I was certain they were both h-4831 I load a couple grains below max and shoot it. IMO its hard to get enough 4831 in a 270 case to cause a problem. I've shot 4831 before it was SC and I've shot SC also in different 270s , always a compressed load.
I once had a successful bench rest shooter tell me his most accurate 30-06 load was to dip the case full of H-4831 and seat a Remington 180 gr core-lokt on it
Take this and any other Internet advise at your own risk!!

[cbrick]

Also, do you have any idea of how much of one powder and how much of the other? The age of either powder? How where they stored?

I would wait to hear from Hodgdon when they tell you to dump it.

If your friend knows no more about reloading than to mix powders do yourself a huge favor and NEVER shoot any of his reloads, in fact, try not to be next to him when he's shooting them (In his own firearms).

Rick

[Rocket Man]

It might be fine but I personally would be afraid of it. 40 years ago my reloader leaked powder on the work bench every time I used it. I would always clean up spilled powder before switching powders and reloading something different. One day I forgot to clean up old powder and I forgot that I had switched powders. There was about 1 teaspoon of powder spilled I cleaned it up and dumped it in with the other powder. I loaded 20 bullets next day the very first shot blew the gun into 6 pieces. I was very lucky not to be killed.

[John Boy]

Burn Rate:
124. Hodgdon H4831 & H4831SC
http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Burn%20Rates_nov10.pdf
Me? Load - Lock - Ready on the Left & Right? FIRE!

Just make sure to weigh your charges!

[Catshooter]

Seriously, and with no intent to flalme, if you have to ask, then you don't know enough to use it.


Cat

[Gibson]

They are ballistically the same. The individual grains are shorter.

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/8677/hodqo.jpg

Organic chemistry, lot to lot variation. . . but if I mixed it I'd weigh each charge and rock steady; if any other sentient or non-sentient being, for that matter, mixed it, I'd toss it.

[Sax.45]

Feed the grass. Your lawn will love ya....

[mpmarty]

Fertilizer

[MtGun44]

Call Hodgdon, they will know.

Personally, I would try a low power load and chrono it. Then use some real H-4831
at identical wt and chrono. If close, I'd feel that I could work up a load with it, starting
low and working up until I reached the velocity that the Hodgdon manual lists for H-4831
as max, or until I hit my desired accy or other intended performance measure for
the load.

Seems extremely unlikely to be unsafe. As a general rule, mixing powders is a big
gamble and I would NOT do it, but this pair is likely to be the exception to the rule.

Bill

[PhantomF4E]

Use it for fertilizer. *** powder is nothing you want to dump in a cartridge.

[nvbirdman]

If you read the descriptions that Gibson posted you will notice that standard and sc have different loading densities. This means you can't use a measure to throw your charges, you would have to weigh each charge.
Fertilizer.

[stubert]

Here is hodgdons answer,....... Well, these powders should never have been mixed. While they are interchangeable for data, the powders are not identical chemically. When we made the SC shorter, we had to change the burn speed to make the two powder use the same data. I cannot guarantee that the chemistry is compatible under all circumstances Due to the difference in the length of the powder kernels there may be a separation of the two kernel sizes.





Keep an eye out for any signs of pressure or deterioration with this mixed product. I would suggest that it would be best to use this powder as quickly as possible rather than letting it sit for a long period of time.



This translates to ?????????

[cbrick]

This translates to ?????????

I would dump it. While Hodgdon didn't come right out and say dump it they did say "these powders should never have been mixed".

Shame to waste 2 pounds of powder, bigger shame to waste a perfectly good firearm or eyes or fingers.

Do as you wish but to me the unknowns outweigh the price of 2 pounds of powder. Your friend needs a good tongue lashing lest he ever does it again.

Rick

[CATS]

The other guys here have given you good input. That said, how do you KNOW that there are only TWO powders in that mix? If there are two saved powders, what if he "saved" a little of a fast pistol powder in that mix? Based on his one known operating procedure, (mixing two powders), this could be a mix of all of his small lots. Walk slow on this one while you think it out.

[flounderman]

I wouldn't be afraid of it. I would makes sure it was mixed evenly and work up a load. if pressure signs show up befre they should, then I would be a little cautious. Me personally, I would use it. I would, test it with reduced loads and work up. I have one older book lists 57 gr 4831 max and another book lists 60 h-4831 max, with 130 gr jacketed. I wouldn't start out with a 57 gr load, but would consider that to be the max. everybody has an opinion, mine is if it was mine I would use it.

[GP100man]

If I had mixed it I`d probably work a load up after Hodgdons reply , but if it was gifted, NO!

I saw 1 response sayin IMR & Hodgdon 4831 , if this is indeed the case , it`ll make the roses a very deep red ,or the grass a deep green , mow 3 times a wk though.

[stubert]

It is now on my lawn, I don't trust, that the chucklehead that gave it to me knew what it was. Thanks, again for the replys.

[Walter Laich]

Let us know if the grass grows at the same rate or if there is more growth in one area than another :)

[Inkman]

It is now on my lawn, I don't trust, that the chucklehead that gave it to me knew what it was. Thanks, again for the replys.

Good choice IMHO.

I don't know enough about powders to use something like that. I'd have dumped it too.

Al

[cbrick]

It is now on my lawn, I don't trust, that the chucklehead that gave it to me knew what it was. Thanks, again for the replys.

Your guns will thank you . . . Your lawn will thank you. :mrgreen:

Rick

[shdwlkr]

What no one brought up is that lot to lot changes in the same powder can make different things happen when you pull the trigger. Not so much with commercial powders but one should watch this little fact also.
Rule number one in reloading never mix powders
Rule number two keep track of lot numbers
Rule number three make sure you know which powder you are loading into which cartridge
Rule number four never get distracted while reloading it can not end well for you
Rule number five never use someone else's powder that you don't know for sure what is in that can of powder.

[ukrifleman]

What are your eyes and fingers worth ? Are you feeling lucky ??

+100! Use it for garden fertilizer DON'T load with it.
ukrifleman.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Several years ago a friend gave me a one pound coffee can full of ball powder. On the lid of the can he had written 4198 which it obviously was not. While it was some type of beautiful ball powder there was no way to know what it was. It when into the bushes.

[fredj338]

Here is hodgdons answer,....... Well, these powders should never have been mixed. While they are interchangeable for data, the powders are not identical chemically. When we made the SC shorter, we had to change the burn speed to make the two powder use the same data. I cannot guarantee that the chemistry is compatible under all circumstances Due to the difference in the length of the powder kernels there may be a separation of the two kernel sizes.
Keep an eye out for any signs of pressure or deterioration with this mixed product. I would suggest that it would be best to use this powder as quickly as possible rather than letting it sit for a long period of time.

This translates to ?????????
I think this is pretty much what everyone was saying??

[stubert]

I was hopeing that Hodgdon would say no problem use it. But I knew better.

[Sax.45]

Good decision, When in doubt, Throw it out...

[L Erie Caster]

Your guns will thank you . . . Your lawn will thank you. :mrgreen:

Rick


And as a fellow reloader, I thank you for not beeing another idiot that blows himself up, giving all of us a bad name.

[Gibson]

To re-iterate, if I mixed the two described powders, I would have ZERO problem shooting them based on the relative burn chart post and the image I posted. PERIOD. If someone else mixed them, then I would not load them. PERIOD.

(Loaded by weight, as I stated, not by volume, of course)

[mpmarty]

And if you found a full bottle of prescription medicine without a label would you swallow it?

[Gibson]

Misunderstood.

[Bwana]

Maybe. But then I know how to use this: http://www.rxlist.com/pill-identification-tool/article.htm

[Gibson]

Might help you with the meds but dogged if I can see how that would tell you how to get that bottle swallowed. It would seem that that would be a rather tough row to hoe. Suppose you could crush it up but those plastic shards. . .

:bigsmyl2:

[BCB]

Do reloading manuals list different reloading data for the regular 4831 as opposed to short cut 4831?

Might be a thought there...

Good-luck...BCB

[Hickory]

If it were me, I'd use this train of reasoning;
The powder was given to me, -0- invested.
Throw it way, -0- loss.