First post, please be kind!

[wonderdog451]

I have been a long time lurker on this site and have found it to be a great informational resource. But, I now have a question that is not so easily answered, I have been researching swaging your own thirty caliber subsonic bullet using Corbin dies and have one nagging question, When trying to swage a bullet whose final weight is around 200 grains, do or would you prefer to buy your jackets from Corbin or make your own? I have seen several posts about people using 5.7x28mm brass as a source for bullet jacket material, but would like more details about the entire process, especially what equipment and techniques were used. The sub-sonic bullet Corbin has posted on their own website seems to be a example worth emulating.

[Reload3006]

only because you are saying subsonic I would think that you would probably want to use commercial jackets if you intend to hunt with this bullet. If you are only thinking about plinking and paper punching then cartridge brass may be the ticket for you. All that is required extra would be a core seating punch that fits your brass close enough to prevent lead blow by so that your brass jacket expands to size properly. If I were investing in a set up I would enable my self to do both. Also I dont know that I would buy my jackets from Corbin. Berger and Sierra also sell them probably a lot less expensive .. However I dont know that for a fact.

[danielk]

I've drooled over the subsonic bullet pictured on corbins website many a time. One thing to think about is that forming the rebated boat tail with re-purposed cartridges would probably present some issues with the thickness of the case head and pressure needed to form the boat tail.

[sprinkintime]

Also RCE has jacket 200@19.64 but they are only 1.150 long a little short for 200gr.

[wonderdog451]

After spending a little more time on the Corbin website,I priced out a complete setup to make subsonic 30 caliber bullets according to their directions, The cost for an amateur like me to get started making just the bullets would be in the vicinity of $3300. Which is not bad and perfectly acceptable , since I know a few people who have at least $2500 invested in at least one firearm ( a custom nighthawk to be exact) and another person has more than that invested in his M1A.

[Lizard333]

Another option is RCE. This guy is Dave Corbin brother, Richard Corbin. His equipment is less money but the quality is the same. He's a one man shop, so his overhead is less. I have his dies and press. I have a complete 224 swaging kit and press, including trim dies, for considerably less than your 3300. Richard also has dies to make your own jackets out of copper tubing. Another avenue to explore.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Reload3006]

I've drooled over the subsonic bullet pictured on corbins website many a time. One thing to think about is that forming the rebated boat tail with re-purposed cartridges would probably present some issues with the thickness of the case head and pressure needed to form the boat tail.
on a subsonic projectile a boat tail will give you nothing in terms of performance. If you are going to make long range bullets that you want to stay accurate as the bullet transitions from sonic to subsonic flight a boat tail is the way to go. But if your never super sonic that boat tail gives you nothing but expense.

[DukeInFlorida]

BT Sniper's tool set for making 30 caliber bullets is MUCH under the $3300 that you are talking about. And, will make bullets every bit as good as any Corbin set.
The subsonic 30 cal people are the ones building 300 aac blackout guns with suppressors. The copper tubing set from BT Sniper, or the set that uses the 5.7X28FN brass will each make very suitable subsonic bullets in the weight that you are seeking.

300 AAC BLackout is a 100 yards or less type gun.... Especially subsonic.

BT Sniper is working at having some 30 cal sets ready in the next few weeks. If I were you, I'd contact him asap.

[danielk]

Sorry Duke but I must disagree. A 300 blkout is not a 100 yard and under gun (sub sonic yes). I regularly shoot mine out to 350 yards at a 12 inch plate. Check out this video too. Skip to 7:10 on the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgKjbySsAik&feature=g-user-u and he's using a 7.5 inch barrel.

Didn't mean to highjack but to call this round a 100 yard and under is totally wrong.

[DukeInFlorida]

The opening post specifically said sub-sonic.................

You aren't gonna shoot a sub-sonic 200 grain bullet, with a suppressor, ACCURATELY, at more than 100 yards.

Supersonic, with no suppressor, OK! Re-read the opening post. that's what I was replying to.

[Reload3006]

the key here is super sonic or sub sonic. Supersonic ammo is going to be ok at long ranges. Subsonic will not. Look at it as shooting a 45acp large mass great knockdown at close range. But you would not shoot a 45acp at even 100yds yes it will do it but not very well and in combat could cost you your life. The thread was talking about sub sonic. Under the speed of sound. And the reason I suggested a potentially weaker jacket so you could get good expansion Because you are talking a subsonic round. Load it up in to the full bore Blackout your talking a different animal. Like shooting a 22short in a 22lr. same bullet very effective close up but a lot quieter yet you sacrifice long range.

[Smokin7mm]

I have all RCE equipment and have been very happy with it. I am not seeing the 3300.00 to get started. On RCE's website even if you get the full up RBT Soft point. Five Die set @ $926.00 and a walnut hill press @ 449.00. and either a core cutter for wire 73.00 or core mold for casting cores 105.00 you are still around 1500.00? Are you looking at going hydraulic? On the jacket side there are only a few places to get jackets longer than the 1.150 - 1.155 which are good for about 150-165gr maybe a little heavier. Berger is one source but I just got their current price list and there prices really shot up. For a long 30cal jacket you are looking for, as of January 2012 the price for a 30cal 1.400" jacket was .2186 each, as of May 2012 the price went up to .3279 each. Options are to make you own from tubing which a tubing jacket making set of dies will run 578.00.
The equipment prices listed are from the RCE website. The berger jacket prices are from a list I received from them.
Hope this info helps.
Bret

[danielk]

I had read the opening post. And if you read my post i did agree with you that subsonic it is a short range cartridge. However in your post "300 AAC BLackout is a 100 yards or less type gun.... Especially subsonic." implies both super and subsonic are short range. That is why I had to disagree.

[wonderdog451]

I have all RCE equipment and have been very happy with it. I am not seeing the 3300.00 to get started. On RCE's website even if you get the full up RBT Soft point. Five Die set @ $926.00 and a walnut hill press @ 449.00. and either a core cutter for wire 73.00 or core mold for casting cores 105.00 you are still around 1500.00? Are you looking at going hydraulic? On the jacket side there are only a few places to get jackets longer than the 1.150 - 1.155 which are good for about 150-165gr maybe a little heavier. Berger is one source but I just got their current price list and there prices really shot up. For a long 30cal jacket you are looking for, as of January 2012 the price for a 30cal 1.400" jacket was .2186 each, as of May 2012 the price went up to .3279 each. Options are to make you own from tubing which a tubing jacket making set of dies will run 578.00.
The equipment prices listed are from the RCE website. The berger jacket prices are from a list I received from them.
Hope this info helps.
Bret
Thanks for all the good advice, my prices were based off the price list that you can download off the Corbin website, which lists the .308 die set in the $1145.00 price range, the CSP-1 swage press retails for $619 and there are several other items they recommend like the jacket serrator for $269 and the cavity punch die for $180 (I think), a table for the CSP-1 press for $500 and then I need to add in the cost of lead wire and copper jackets and I still have not added in the cost of the core punch die. I need to emphasize one again that while I am really experienced at reloading pistol, rifle and shotgun shells and cartridges. I know very little about about what equipment is truly necessary to swage the type of bullets I am looking for to use in a subsonic, suppressed or non suppressed 300 Blackout AR15( researching and then buying the suppressor I would want is another task for later). However, I would like to be able to swage a decent copper jacketed for informal target practice or if I decide to be frugal, maybe just swage a lead bullet for cheap informal shooting. I would also like the lead bullet to not be so soft that it could stand up to the feed ramps in an AR15 without becoming severely deformed.Note: I misread the price of the Corbin die RBTL-S die set and was off by $400, so it seems that a complete setup to make a .30 caliber subsonic bullet similar to what they have pictured on their website would cost me around $3000, Which would be perfectly acceptable if I still had a garage to convert into a workspace.

[Lizard333]

I had read the opening post. And if you read my post i did agree with you that subsonic it is a short range cartridge. However in your post "300 AAC BLackout is a 100 yards or less type gun.... Especially subsonic." implies both super and subsonic are short range. That is why I had to disagree.

I agree here. My buddy routinely shoot at gongs at 300 yards with his. Very accurate.

[Reload3006]

Before I sank that kind of money into Corbin MFG and waited up to 3+ years for my gear I would give Richard Corbin at RCE LLC a call. He designed most of Corbin MFG gear he is much cheaper and a lot faster on delivery.

[FatMcNasty]

Yup im waiting on a RBT die set and a jacket making setup from Corbin. Delivery time is roughly spring. If your thinking of doing the Round nose design, make sure you get the duel diameter die. Other wise you will have to seat the bullet way back to not engage the lands and groves of the barrel.

[danielk]

I would shop around before droppin serious money like that. But I ordered a set of H Dies and a Press from Corbin in August and received my order in October. Now my dies were for 224 bullet with a 6s ogive and are pretty standard equipment. Before you assume a 3 year wait I'd check on it.

Wonderdog, your last post stated "I would like to be able to swage a decent copper jacketed for informal target practice or if I decide to be frugal, maybe just swage a lead bullet for cheap informal shooting". The dies are designed to give you a precise .308 jacketed bullet. If you are going to shoot a lead bullet you would be better off casting it and sizing it to your specific bore plus a thousandth, probably .309. Swaging a lead bullet in those dies would produce a lead bullet with no lube grooves that will most likely be too small.

[Smokin7mm]

When I looked into my equipment I looked at both Corbin and RCE. I went with RCE (Richard Corbin) He was the Die maker at Corbin until he and his brother Dave parted. His equipment was less costly. Also for what you are doing I would say start basic add from there. You can get a basic 3 die set for an Flat Base open tip bullet for 542.00. There are alot of add on accessories you can get as you go but the basics are the press and dies and a way to make cores, wire or cast. That is all you really need to start making bullets. I have built my collect over the last 10+ years to include multiple calibers (22, 6mm, 6.5mm, 270, 7mm) and special operation dies (jacket reducer dies, lead tip dies, etc)
Bret

[FatMcNasty]

This is some 220's I did the other day, its a 6s ogive on the corbin 1.25 length jackets.
55806

[wonderdog451]

Now those bullets seem to be pretty close to what I am looking at making myself, would you mind sharing the details about your manufacturing process?

[FatMcNasty]

corbin 6s 308 die set.
Normal Swage core to size. drop in a 1.25 length jacket. swage core in then tipping die till its almost a flat point with a hint of a HP. Of course cleaning the lube off between each step. nothing special really. i have yet to get out and shoot the test batch I made up.

[gunguychuck]

Why would a boat tail bullet give you nothing in performance with a subsonic round when the boat tail has no effect until the bullet has slowed to subsonic. QUOTE=Reload3006;1954216]on a subsonic projectile a boat tail will give you nothing in terms of performance. If you are going to make long range bullets that you want to stay accurate as the bullet transitions from sonic to subsonic flight a boat tail is the way to go. But if your never super sonic that boat tail gives you nothing but expense.[/QUOTE]

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

regarding using a 5.7x28 case for a jacket.
This thread of BT's talks about it.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?61720-FN-5-7x308/page3

I posted how I sized a cutdown 5.7 case using a modied 280rem FL size die,
Jon

[Reload3006]

The reason is aerodynamics as a projectile flies through a medium. In our case the atmosphere or (Air) it creates a vortex at the base of the bullet. this neither enhances or impedes the projectile until such a time as the projectile starts to transition from sonic to transonic flight at what time the vortex at the base of the bullet begins to shift. that is where the boat tail shape comes in. It has the ability to slip through this buffeting easier than a square base because the shape of the boat tail approximates the shape of the vortex essentially giving a smaller surface area at the base of the bullet to be buffeted. In subsonic flight there is no transition to subsonic flight so no buffeting or very minimal hence a boat tail has no effect.

[gunguychuck]

A boat tail bullet will reduce drag at all speeds but very little until the bullet has slowed below the speed of sound, when it reduces drag the most. A boat tail bullet does much more for a bullet going 1130 fps or slower than a bullet that is supersonic. This is from technical papers on Dave Corbins Website. Check it out.

[7of7]

The rebated boat tail, is designed to deflect the gasses away from the bullet, so it doesn't fly through the turbulence of the muzzleblast. The regular boat tail, allows the gasses to flow around and in front of the bullet as it exits the barrel, before the base exits.
I have Corbin equipment, I do make some of my own punches for my specific needs. Dave Corbin has been very helpful with tips on making the bullets, which shortens the learning curve.
I have two CSP1 presses, and 30 cal dies, 3/4E, 6S, and 8S point forming dies, as well as the RBT dies. I have also made a spreadsheet for bullet weight which will effectively give you the core weight needed for the finished bullet weight. Jacket weight is based on .05 increments, from .6 inches to the 1.25 length jacket.
Corbin jackets, have a thicker wall at the base, that extends .5 inches up the jacket, then the wall thickness decreases. This effectively gives you a jacket that will expand easily, and control that expansion when it gets to the thicker wall. I buy the bulk box of jackets when I buy them.
As far as cores, I picked up a 4 place adjustable weight core mold. So, I cast a core, swage it to the weight I need.. however, I swage a bunch for the bullet weight I use.
The 300 AAC, I would say is pretty close to the 30-30 as far as velocity. I think it would be a hoot to shoot.. (just have to get the upper, dies, and some brass...) I could seriously have some fun with that...
Also, short jackets... or long gas checks... work great. no leading, and don't need lube. I make my own gas checks too, and have used some with swaging..
When you have the equipment, the fun is just beginning.. I have quite a bit of fun with mine, and trying new things.. creating new things too.
But, I do have a large garage that has additional space for workbenches.

[Reload3006]

Daves brother Ricard disagrees.

[wonderdog451]

The rebated boat tail, is designed to deflect the gasses away from the bullet, so it doesn't fly through the turbulence of the muzzleblast. The regular boat tail, allows the gasses to flow around and in front of the bullet as it exits the barrel, before the base exits.
I have Corbin equipment, I do make some of my own punches for my specific needs. Dave Corbin has been very helpful with tips on making the bullets, which shortens the learning curve.
I have two CSP1 presses, and 30 cal dies, 3/4E, 6S, and 8S point forming dies, as well as the RBT dies. I have also made a spreadsheet for bullet weight which will effectively give you the core weight needed for the finished bullet weight. Jacket weight is based on .05 increments, from .6 inches to the 1.25 length jacket.
Corbin jackets, have a thicker wall at the base, that extends .5 inches up the jacket, then the wall thickness decreases. This effectively gives you a jacket that will expand easily, and control that expansion when it gets to the thicker wall. I buy the bulk box of jackets when I buy them.
As far as cores, I picked up a 4 place adjustable weight core mold. So, I cast a core, swage it to the weight I need.. however, I swage a bunch for the bullet weight I use.
The 300 AAC, I would say is pretty close to the 30-30 as far as velocity. I think it would be a hoot to shoot.. (just have to get the upper, dies, and some brass...) I could seriously have some fun with that...
Also, short jackets... or long gas checks... work great. no leading, and don't need lube. I make my own gas checks too, and have used some with swaging..
When you have the equipment, the fun is just beginning.. I have quite a bit of fun with mine, and trying new things.. creating new things too.
But, I do have a large garage that has additional space for workbenches.

I too, was always told that the Rebated Boat Tail on a bullet was there to deflect the gases from the propellant away from the base of the bullet and as an additional bonus, it had a slight improvement on aerodynamics. I really do think that the 300 Blackout is an excellent alternative to traditional SMG calibers and if I am going to stay with this caliber for any appreciable length of time, I would like to be as thoroughly informed about as many different aspects of it as possible. It is just too bad I no longer have a garage to convert into my new man cave, rest assured that if I did have one, it would be set up for reloading rifle,pistol, shotgun and bullet swaging and casting.

[Reload3006]

From Richard Corbins swaging book
Rebated Boattail Bullets
The rebated boattail bullet is usually made by home bullet makers. There is little advantage or disadvantage between the standard boattail and the rebated boattail. Barrel life will be the same, accuracy is the same, ballistics are the same.
The reason for the rebated boattail is that the tooling that makes the bullet will last much longer and is not as easily damaged as that for the standard boattail. The punches that form the rebated boattail are enough stronger that they will be more forgiving of the occasional “oops”. The rebated boattail is simply a much better design for home and small commercial bullet makers.

[nhrifle]

I love my Blackout and shoot it every chance I can. It digests everything I feed it with no problems whatsoever and is very forgiving.

As far as the boat tail is concerned, I would say go with whatever bullet style you like best. If that RBT style looks awesome and you just have to make em, go for it! Certainly can't hurt. However, my personal recommendation would be to go with a flat base design as tooling costs are less and I honestly havn't noticed a difference in practical accuracy between FB and BT until I cross 800 yards or so. That distance might be a stretch for subsonic loading!

Also, try some cast boolits in yours. That's mostly what I shoot, and I've found them to be just as accurate as jacketed. A couple great moulds are the Lee C312-155-2R and the Lyman 311299. Both are minute-of-squirrel accurate at my plinking distances (under 200 yards) and I have yet to have any bad leading of the barrel. My initial fears were that the gas tube would foul with lube and lead, but the gas system stays clear.

A final thought. The neck length on the brass is short and subsonic bullets tend to be long, so I would recommend a long ogive on your projectiles, somewhere around 8 or 9, to give best feeding in magazines. Both Barnes and Sierra have bullets made specifically for the Blackout. Take a look at those and you will see what I mean.

[BT Sniper]

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1070634take2.jpg

Here is what I came up with for a customer's idea for a good 300AAC bullet. Think it was a 200 grain lead bullet with small gas check jacket next to a 180 grain nolser BT

I would imagine that bullet should expand well at sub sonic speeds :)

BT

[nhrifle]

BT, that looks interesting, but what about the chances for leading with all that exposed lead and no lube grooves? Maybe I'm not seeing something right but that would be a worry of mine.

[wonderdog451]

BT, that looks interesting, but what about the chances for leading with all that exposed lead and no lube grooves? Maybe I'm not seeing something right but that would be a worry of mine.

I was thinking the same thing, what are the chances of the barrel getting leaded by a projectile with with no lube grooves and jacket Or will that not be an issue with a subsonic bullet? I also saw the specifications for the new MSAR Stg 556 E4 rifle that has a soon to be available option of a 16.5" 300 Blackout barrel and am thinking that a heavy 30 caliber bullet at subsonic speeds out of that weapon will be devastating.

[Mountain Prepper]

First - welcome to swaging (or more kind would be to shout a warning and have you run away as fast as you can).

Ok, so it is not so bad... but like casting - this entire "roll your own" can get addicting - I have left in my personal collection three corbin swage presses of various designs. I have been selling off my unused swaging equipment a little at a time (some things I just do not shoot enough to bother with.

If anyone is interested I have a full set of .308 8sVLD dies with the two die RBBT added dies available and possibly a press to go along with it.. My eyes are no longer my friends and my days of long range shooting are just about over, I will be shortening my distances and concentrating on hunting bullets (have a set for that in .308) and hopefully retirement hunting in less than a decade. PM me if anyone is serious about a set in excellent like new condition without waiting, the price will not be cut rate, I would rather not sell if that were the case.

[Mountain Prepper]

From Richard Corbins swaging book
Rebated Boattail Bullets
The rebated boattail bullet is usually made by home bullet makers. There is little advantage or disadvantage between the standard boattail and the rebated boattail. Barrel life will be the same, accuracy is the same, ballistics are the same.
The reason for the rebated boattail is that the tooling that makes the bullet will last much longer and is not as easily damaged as that for the standard boattail. The punches that form the rebated boattail are enough stronger that they will be more forgiving of the occasional “oops”. The rebated boattail is simply a much better design for home and small commercial bullet makers.

One other benefit of the RBBT bullet is simply a shorter "shank" so the extra weight of lead in the BT will not have the same pressure effects as one of the same weight and a flat base (longer shank).

I certainly did see a great effect when I started making RBBTs but that could be simply that I have much more control over the bullet weight, jacket, jacket weight, core and everything else - and could be similar to hand loading - when you do it yourself and control everything you get a higher quality product... Only bullets that come close are the custom swaged benchrest bullets, and I have an edge there in that I can modify further to match the exact rifle.

[MUSTANG]

I was thinking the same thing, what are the chances of the barrel getting leaded by a projectile with with no lube grooves and jacket Or will that not be an issue with a subsonic bullet? I also saw the specifications for the new MSAR Stg 556 E4 rifle that has a soon to be available option of a 16.5" 300 Blackout barrel and am thinking that a heavy 30 caliber bullet at subsonic speeds out of that weapon will be devastating.


Low velocity, the 300AAC is at 1000FPS (+) in a 200 grain bullet. Seems that other than shape, it would be in the same range as a .41/.44Mag less the lube groove/s. Perhaps a Lee Tumble Lube or other similar lube, or a Moly will provide sufficient film lube to preclude leading. (Think over sized 22LR, similar velocities, but ratio of surface area is much greater for the .308)) The swaged Gas Check should protect against gasses.

I had thought about the same concept in a low velocity .308, swaged lead .308 bullet using gas check at bottom, making bullet using a set of CH .308 dies I bought 5 years ago but have not explored to date.

Mustang

[nhrifle]

I saw somewhere that Lyman has a moly spray that would work as you describe Mustang. Of course, in a low pressure, low velocity load leading may not be an issue despite my earlier fears. My airguns shoot raw, dead soft unlubed led pellets anywhere between 1300 and 1500 fps and I have yet to remove any leading from the bore.