How much did a scope close your pistol groups?

[Silvercreek Farmer]

I've never scoped a pistol (and honestly don't really like the idea due to the added size/weight), but my vision is not great which makes me doubt my groups when testing various loads. Just curious as to what folks have experienced in terms of group size when they added a scope on a pistol.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Age for me was the reason to do my past 75 yards accuracy testing with a scope on a handgun. I used to head shoot steel turkeys with my iron sighted DW 41 mag for practice. Now I cannot see a turkeys steel head clearly enough at 150 meters to do so.
So if I cannot aim small there is little hope I will realise the real potencial of a load way out there.
Something else a scope will do is verify how badly my shooting position is contributing to my "wobbles". I find the creedmore position to still be my most accurate.
Mike in ILL

[jmsj]

Silvercreek,
I know what you mean regarding the sights are not as sharp as they used to be. Like you I was resistant to put an optic on a handgun. Here is a thread I started a while back
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?153815-I-can-still-shoot-I-just-can-t-SEE-!!!&highlight=

I hope this helps, jmsj

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Thanks guys! What really stinks is that I am only 31, at the rate I am going I really will be blind as a bat at 60, probably deaf too!

[44man]

SIGHTS, SIGHTS, what are they? Yes a scope will really work except for one thing. They are real dark in the AM and PM if you deer hunt.
Off hand is crazy with them because you see the wiggle and tend to pull the trigger as the cross hairs pass the target.
The best is 1X. I use Ultra Dots for hunting and I can almost match the groups shot with a scope, many times better.
Scopes work best from a rest. There is a gremlin inside that shakes the cross hairs like a rat!

[MT Gianni]

A scope dropped my 44 Blackhawk groups by half @ 75 yards. It increased target aquisition time by 3. The contender is scoped but that is the only pistol I shoot scoped now.I went to a bifocal which really helped. Find an optomitrist that will let you bring in a gun withthe cylinder removed. My fixed bifocal is taller than normal and I can go back and forth between magnified and non with a very slight head tilt. These are dedicated shooting glasses only. Do not attempt to shoot well with a progressive bifocal.

[Shuz]

I suggest you look into a Merit Optical device to aid your open sighted pistol shooting. A scope on a handgun is just a tool to remove the "optical element" (read vision problems) when trying new loads. 44man sums it up for me and scopes on handguns!

[subsonic]

It depends. I still have good corrected vision, but it's not AS good as it used to be as far as focal length. What used to be a fuzzy target behind the sights is now a verry blurry target.

I can still shoot killer groups at 25yds, and maybe 50 with irons, but out past that, it's hard to find an aiming point to line up on unless the target is huge and well defined.

A red-dot sight allows me to be able to focus on both the target and sights and I shoot more *consistently* small groups. I can probably match my best scope or red dot sighted group with irons, but it takes more attempts to do it.

[Texantothecore]

My eye doctor is a shooter and he understands that the third day after I get new contacts I will go out to the shooting range and look at the targets at 100 yards. If they are not dead sharp I will be back in his office to get them changed.

He gets it and is fine with it.

[44MAG#1]

There is really no real (imagined is another thing) reason why groups with a scope handgun, benched or offhand, shouldn't be better than iron sights consistantly from one shooting session to another.

[Kraschenbirn]

Never particularly cared for scopes on 'conventional' handguns (excluding long-barreled Contenders and XP-100s from 'conventional) but the best set-up I even owned for bullseye shooting was a 1X Burris with fine crosshairs and a 1/2 MOA dot mounted on a 5 1/2" H-S Citation. I can't really state a percentage of reduction for group size but my match scores jumped from somewhere in the mid-to-upper 'Sharpshooter' range to mid-'Expert' almost overnight. Later, I mounted a another 1X Burris on a Series 70 Gold Cup with similar results.

Bill

[turtlezx]

I put a scope on everything
the better you can see the better the group

you dont realize how much your wobbling around with a pistol until you look thru the scope!!!

[cbrick]

I group my revolver at 150 meters and any more with iron sigths I'm lucky to hit the target much less group. For grouping, load work the FA wears a Burris 3x12 on 12 power, turns it into what it is capable of and wish I still was. It only wears the scope for load work, if I shoot a match it wears Bo-Mar rear.

Like Missionary5155 (post #2) practicing on turkey heads I used to practice on the hole in the rams horn. Geez, I can barely see the ram anymore.

55804

Rick

[44man]

Nice setup Rick!
Now for something real pleasant. I got an E mail from an old IHMSA member I shot with and he is one of us here---Just how great is that?

[rintinglen]

Like many of the others here, I have "age-itis." Since I turned 55 my ability to shoot groups with iron sighted revolvers has gone south, WAAYY south now as I crawl towards 60 (if it goes any further, it will need a visa.) For me, from a bench, the scope on my Ruger SBH Hunter lets me shoot groups at 50 Yards that I can scarcely match at 50 feet with Iron sights. Pet loads run 1 1/2 -2 1/2 inches with the scope from sand bags. The same loads often run 5+ inchs if I get proud and try to recapture my youth.

[44man]

Like many of the others here, I have "age-itis." Since I turned 55 my ability to shoot groups with iron sighted revolvers has gone south, WAAYY south now as I crawl towards 60 (if it goes any further, it will need a visa.) For me, from a bench, the scope on my Ruger SBH Hunter lets me shoot groups at 50 Yards that I can scarcely match at 50 feet with Iron sights. Pet loads run 1 1/2 -2 1/2 inches with the scope from sand bags. The same loads often run 5+ inchs if I get proud and try to recapture my youth.
Is that Ruger Hunter great or what?

[white eagle]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v730/kempobb/supremehunter.jpg
anymore I won't even try to shoot groups with irons
I have found that this set up is killer for groups
I can now get them at 100 yds and 50 yds

[fecmech]

I am able to match Ransom rest groups using dot sights off the bench. I could never do that with irons even when I was a young man and had 20/15 vision. I would only want a scope for bench or rested shooting with a handgun. The magnification shows the shakes so bad offhand you will never pull the trigger!

[44MAG#1]

As I stated previously there is no real reason one can't shoot better groups with a scope off the bench or offhand.
The only reason is a psycological one not a physical one.

[cbrick]

I would only want a scope for bench or rested shooting with a handgun. The magnification shows the shakes so bad offhand you will never pull the trigger!

That's not really true. In long range handgun silhouettte where the targets are at 50, 100, 150, 200 meters (218 yards) unlimited full size standing is an off-hand scoped class, in NRA National Championship events there are perfect 80x80 scores.

Most certainly not by me but it is done. Marvin Tannahill I think was the first one to do it and I believe he uses a 8x scope.

Rick

[oldfart1956]

Wasn't an option for me....couldn't see the targets past 50yds.! I'm using a scope for load workup and just now switching to the Ultradot for hunting. Learning to use the Ultradot is a challange due to the lack of magnification but well worth it for shooting at real world distances encountered in the woods. The dot coveres up a lot more area than I thought it would but a deer at 75yds. and under is a big target actually. Get one of each! :) Audie...the Oldfart..

[thegatman]

I have scopes on my two .44's and have no problem. Accurate out to a hundred yards with the right load. I also own a Savage Striker in .308 and scoped that with a 4 X 32 pistol scope. Very accurate but I use a bipod.

[rintinglen]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v730/kempobb/supremehunter.jpg
anymore I won't even try to shoot groups with irons
I have found that this set up is killer for groups
I can now get them at 100 yds and 50 yds
Well, no wonder, with a barrel that long, you could just stick a bayonet on it for 50 yard groups. At 25 yards you'll get powder burns on the Target!:kidding:

[44man]

That's not really true. In long range handgun silhouettte where the targets are at 50, 100, 150, 200 meters (218 yards) unlimited full size standing is an off-hand scoped class, in NRA National Championship events there are perfect 80x80 scores.

Most certainly not by me but it is done. Marvin Tannahill I think was the first one to do it and I believe he uses a 8x scope.

Rick
Yes, true but look at how they hold a pistol, not a revolver. Many use rifle scopes. They are held like a rifle and a stock brace at the wrist. Scopes are very high on the gun too to allow body bracing with arms.
Revolvers wiggle because you can't get near a cylinder gap.
Both hands on the grip at arms length with a scope is different.
It is like a 1911 with a barrier brace. Not something you carry or shoot normal with.

[44MAG#1]

If you can't shoot better with a 'scope then it is a psycological thing.
You do not move anymore with a 'scope than with iron sights.
ALL shooter move to some degree. Some more than others depending on their nervous system, and above all their amount of practice.
A 2 power 'scope will show double the amount of movement than a 1 power and a 4 power will show 4 times as much.
I use to shoot a 2 to 7 power scope on a revolver and after you get by the psycological part 7 power is what I left it set on.
I can still shoot better with a 'scope offhand than I can with irons especially now that I don't have 20/20 and don't like to use prescription glasses.
I carry a 45 ACP Springfield 1911 as a carry gun even to church. Out hunting where a revolver is carried just a few times a year a 'scope will not be noticed.
If one notices a 'scope when hunting a few times a year then one evidentally is a "nitpicker" in life.
People are really funny.

[cbrick]

Yes, true but look at how they hold a pistol, not a revolver. Many use rifle scopes.

Still a handgun held with both hands, most all today do use a rifle scope.


They are held like a rifle and a stock brace at the wrist. allow body bracing with arms.

Not held anything what so ever like a rifle but geez . . . "stock brace at the wrist"? Body bracing with arms?

There is an accurate word for attempting either of those things . . . It's called . . . Cheating!
Neither are allowed in any way shape or form. No stocks that wrap around the hand are permitted.


Scopes are very high on the gun

Yes, today most use a high rise scope mount and the rules dictate how high it can be. Early in this classification scopes where a typical mount and folks like Lon Pennington consistently shot in the high 70's but then he also consistently shot in the high 60's or low 70's off-hand with iron sights. Part of the purpose of the high rise mount is the way the gun recoils with muzzle rise and the scope coming down away from the eye.


It is like a 1911 with a barrier brace.

Barrier brace? There's that pesky cheating word again. The rules are very clear, there can be no artificial support of any kind, starting at the arm pits no part of your arms or gun may touch or be supported by anything including any part of your body.

You have a very inaccurate idea of what the classification is or how it's done. This must be a class that came along after you stopped shooting silhouette because you couldn't be more wrong. :mrgreen:

Rick

[44man]

Classes change all the time and cheating is allowed in some sports. But I watch some of the shooting on TV and they have a brace on guns to lock to the barrier. It is a wing coming out the side of the pistol.
I see the back held pistols with rifle scopes to remove arm length wiggle. It is there.
Now I no longer know IHMSA, quit because of expense.
I could care less about speed or steel shooting but all kinds of stuff goes on that a revolver shooter can't use except zero recoil.
Cowboy shooters will not shoot normal loads either, zero recoil is the game. The lever guys would go to pot with a 45-70 rifle and use a 44-40 with loads that are a gnats push.
Each game has rules but some can be gone around staying within them.
There is no truth anymore in the shooting sports. How good would a guy shooting full power .500 loads do against someone shooting a toy?
Long ago I won tons of prizes with my .54 Hawken. Then they made it so even the worst shooter got as many groceries. It done no good to hit targets when a real loser got as much.
I won bags of groceries with a flintlock but they changed prize distribution. I QUIT because shooting your best meant nothing at all.
A REAL revolver shooter is the best there is. I shot a Ruger with the cheap sights because I was not allowed to put on better sights because the factory did not offer them but you could shoot another revolver with better sights. Too bad, I beat them anyway.
Winning is more important then skill no matter what it takes. I dropped out because of that. It always came down to money spent. How much you could beat the system.

[cbrick]

You may well have watched something on TV but I can assure you it was NOT a silhouette match or even anything close. As you very well know, there is no such thing a barricade at a silhouette range. What is the point of talking about wings on barricades?

You know silhouette well enough to know full well that it's extremely ulikely that anyone will shoot silhouette with a 500 Smith and impossible to do so with what you describe as a toy. What does that have to do with scoped off-hand silhouette?

Dunno nuttin about shooting a 54 Hawken. Dunno nuttin about shooting flintlocks for groceries except these things have nothing to do with shooting the scoped classes off-hand in silhouette. So what is the point of that?

No is one trying to beat the system, when interest rose in the scoped classes scoped classes where added to the sport. Same off-hand rules for everybody. No one is cheating and if anyone tried they wouldn't last long.

I can't come close to the scores some are shooting scoped off-hand either 44man but I'm not trying to denigrate the entire shooting sports because of it.

Rick

[44man]

Rick I can't hit a thing off hand with a scope! :veryconfu
Now with no magnification like a red dot I can bust bottles at 100 off hand. But will never shoot a long time either.
I don't know IHMSA anymore but are some holding the forearm on pistols like a rifle and using rifle scopes?
IHMSA was strict and you never rested a barrel on a boot top either. I was watched because someone complained because I was shooting too good. They seen I was NOT near my boot and was legal. I got an apology. I never noticed the officials standing behind me from a complaint.
I am long gone from IHMSA, too much driving and expense. Yet losers would get upset as in any sport.
If you want to do something, shoot the center out of a target with a flint lock off hand. Then you will see how easy a revolver is.
I seen too much sandbagging over the years in every shooting sport, some barely staying in class until an important shoot. That was not my way, I went from unclassified to international in the shortest amount of shoots.
Cheats were common. You can't cheat with a flintlock and a shoot when you are there for a day and do not have score cards and ongoing shoots to record. I seen guys miss by shooting into the dirt so they would not climb a class.
You were there my friend, and I am sure you seen stuff.
I have no idea on how off hand shooting is done today. The barrier stuff is sure not silhouette shooting, some kind of fast pistol stuff. I have no interest in it. No interest in CA either. I refuse to spend the money to look the part and shoot loads like a BB gun to win.
Even my .54 was shot with 100 gr of powder for BP silhouette to 100 yards.
Could I shoot a 40 with my .500 JRH? Yes I think so but the weight of the gun might not be allowed.

[scb]

How much did a scope close your pistol groups?

'lots
55936

[Whiterabbit]

Going from a red dot to a 1x pistol scope closed my groups by approx. 50%. I only know approximately because the red dot groups were inconsistent as hell. Now I'm consistent.

[bigboredad]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v730/kempobb/supremehunter.jpg
anymore I won't even try to shoot groups with irons
I have found that this set up is killer for groups
I can now get them at 100 yds and 50 yds


That is a very cool set up I like your muzzle brake or what ever the correct technical term is

[km101]

A red dot sight on my 629 helped improve my groups by half. And it's not as bulky or heavy and is much easier to see early and late in the day. I have tried scopes and find that the variable intensity of the red dot works much better for me on a hunting gun.

[fecmech]

Going from a red dot to a 1x pistol scope closed my groups by approx. 50%. I only know approximately because the red dot groups were inconsistent as hell. Now I'm consistent
I have found when group shooting with a red dot turning the dot brightness down so you are almost looking through the dot helps and use a round black bull to center the dot. A bright dot has chromatic abberations around it and makes it difficult to define exactly.

[Whiterabbit]

I put 1000 rounds through the red dot (probably around 1200). tried every possible combo, including dot brightness. Way ahead of you there. I definitely use a large black center. Best way IMO to group with any sight. I like target dots the best. I don't believe the BS about dot size (red or otherwise) limiting group size. Just make the circles concentric and pull the trigger. Works like a champ for rifles. As long as the target is right. which is to say, round black bull. Like you said.

[44man]

A red dot sight on my 629 helped improve my groups by half. And it's not as bulky or heavy and is much easier to see early and late in the day. I have tried scopes and find that the variable intensity of the red dot works much better for me on a hunting gun.
Exactly, I am a hunter first and always. I love accuracy first but it is in the field where the dot works.
As the light changes I turn the dot on to see what setting works at that time of day. Then when a deer comes I just roll to that setting. I never leave the dot on until a deer is coming. Batteries last me years.
I tried scopes and in the early morning I had deer all around me. Pointed the gun and could not see a thing through them, not even the cross hairs. Same in the evening when light dropped.
Long eye relief with a 5MM exit pupil means light has scattered before it reaches your eye. You can have zero exit pupil to your eye.
Variable scopes lose light when you turn them up even in full sun. Pistol scopes are NOT like a rifle scope close to your eye. A rifle scope also loses light if power is turned up because the exit pupil is reduced. At low power you can see even in low light with a rifle scope. The best rifle scope has either low power or a very large objective.
Light transmission to your eye can not be done with a long eye relief scope.