impregnating boolit w lube during quenching?

[cpileri]

I had a crazy idea and would like to hear learned feedback, if anyone has done something like this:

Would it be possible/effective to coat or impregnate the boolit with the additives in quenching solution, dropping them in hot and having the solutes "bind" to the lead as it cools?

I found a product, an engine oil additive, that has hexagonal boron nitride in it. if i were to use this additive as a quenching solution, essentially quenching cast boolits in engine oil; hoping the hexBN (and other additives too, but well...) will coat into any surface pores/irregularities in the lead and remain on for lubing the bullet when shot; would it work?

anyone ever tried this?

or have any thoughts (besides, "try it and see')?

Merry Christmas!
C-

[leftiye]

I'm on your side (thought I'd say this first). I'd like it to werk. But..... I think you need to figure out what would bind to the boolit (not = burn on) and then add HBN to whatever that might be. With your oils, it would not bind, even if it burned (unless REALLY burned). You would have to quench in liqiud boolit lube that could handle the heat. Easier to just dip lube later IMHO.

[cbrick]

Interesting idea.

I have no idea what "hexagonal boron nitride" is but the first thought I had was . . . Is it flamable?

Rick

[Jim]

Interesting idea.

I have no idea what "hexagonal boron nitride" is but the first thought I had was . . . Is it flamable?

Rick

Commonly known as white graphite.

[MT Gianni]

I made three devices to shorten a 22 lr rn in to a rf. The third one that I hardened by dropping into a can of oil after heating it to red-orange sent the oil foaming and bubbling all over the shop floor. The devices cleaned up easily, the floor took some solvent for the old concrete.
Based only on that my thoughts would be, no the bullets would not absorb any additive, it could get messy so use plenty of coolant in a tall bucket and get good at fishing the boolits out of the bottom of the bucket.
You could try adding some of the oil in a lube by replacing ATF in a lube formula.

[runfiverun]

i have thought about water dropping into a zddp additive and letting the boolits soak in the stuff to let it impregnate the boolit..
in the quest thread there is a solution that was made up to tumble lube boron nitrate-tride, whatever, onto the surface of the boolits.
keeping the hbn in solutin to coat a boolit as it passes through would be the trick.

[cpileri]

thank for the discussion. see i could roll the already lubed bullets in the hbn powder, but that might get expensive. so i thought that since the oil additive already has the particles suspended in solution, it might work and not "over coat" the bullets making them coated with a thick layer of powder.

besides the boiling over issue (and yes, its flammable, but the flash point of the additive is like 450degCelcius, similar to motor oil- designed to tolerate high heat) in the bucket, the oil will be liquid. so the bullets would have to absorb enough of the additive such that it will remain when wiped of excess additive. no one would load a bullet dripping oil into a cartridge since that would contaminate the powder, presumably.

But a thin coat "impregnated' onto the surface would provide lubrication from any film strength left from the oil as well as the hbn and zddp and whatever else is in the solution.
C-

would oil quenched bullets be harder or softer than water quenched?

would different alloys have more surface porosity when hot from the mold, so as to take up the additives, before cooling?

[cpileri]

Sorry, i was mistaken. The flash point is closer to 350deg farenheit (180degC). Not sure hw hot a bullet is when dropped from the mold, but it seems likely to flash or "bake' the coating on the bullet.

Now, as for flash points (i am deliberately not naming commerical products, not sure if its against the rules or not) the powder form is good greater than 1850degC, basically will not burn.

As for the hbn itself, folks are indeed tumbling bullets in the stuff as well as using it for mold release agent, as its coefficient of friction is supposedly less than 0.01- the slipperiest stuff around.

here is an aritcle on that subject: http://www.bench-talk.com/blogs/stan_ware/archive/2009/12/13/boron-nitride-bn-or-more-specifically-hexagonal-boron-nitride-hbn-use-by-shooters.aspx (hope this link is not against the rules)

Merry Christmas!
C-

[cpileri]

So i wonder if a 10-12% mix by weight (about 1lb of hbn powder per gallon of liquid) mixed well in one of the components of a lube recipe, like the ATF mentioned above, or something similar and mixed into a melting pot when creating lube would work?

The problem with the hbn is that the hexagons must line up in plates to slide along each other- think about trying to walk on a floor covered in layers of six-sided mirrors with oil in between them: if they lay flat and slide along each other, they reduce friction. Whoops! Slippery! If they are haphazardly arranged, they dont do as much.

of course, pushing the bullet down the bore should line them up in the correct direction.

My thinking is any haphazard arrangement they might be in when "frozen' in the bullet lube mixture will be auto-arranged in the correct horizontal orientation by the force of firing the bullet.

I know folks try graphite in their mixes, so this is a similar concept but with a slipperier substance.

C-

[runfiverun]

i have kicked zddp around a lot it leaves a rather smooth even coating on steel.
you are in effect using the boolit as an applicator to the bbl's steel it will get a coating and then the coating will be maintained by the passage of the boolits.
it's like using moly in a lube recipe only different [sorry best i can compare to]
a boolit mold is at it's best temp around 365-f the boolit coming from the mold should be in that range.
water quenching works because of the rapid cooling of the oolits surface, this leaves dendrites of antimony hanging off the face [little hooks] those could/should help hold onto the surface lube depending on the lubes make-up.
atf is not going to be a good carrier choice,nor is a poa type of oil base.
maybe something like mineral spirits or acetone [after the water quench] would allow a decently uniform coating.

[bruce381]

lead is not porious no reson for it to absorb anything all you could do is react someting with the lead, sulfur comes to mind.

[cpileri]

ok, but might certain lead alloys that are suitable for bullet casting be porous or have any chemical or physical attraction to the hbn?

[Mugs]

I've used with good results a bike chain lube to lube airgun pellets that contains Cerflon. Cerflon is a PTFE that contains HBN. A lot of the moly coating crowd has switched to HBN, lots cleaner. I did try some boolits dipped in the chain lube, seemed to shoot as good as LBT,FWFL. Do some reading on Cerflon, very interesting.
Mugs

[cpileri]

Cerflon does look interesting, and S&W Dry Lube already has it in it. The description of Cerflon also mentions a good point about the hbn, its metal affinity. It finds its way to metal, in engines and barrels, and coats them, remaining as a barrier lubricant even in dry conditions. I wonder if hbn has any affinity for lead?
or any component of a boolit-suitable alloy?
C-

[runfiverun]

sulpher can be added to lead alloys easily it is an excellent grain refiner.
dunno what would bond to the sulpher to coat the surface though.

[cpileri]

elemental sulfur? or as something-sulfate/sulfite?
C-

[runfiverun]

regular sulpher like you get in a garden shop.
it can be used to remove zink from an alloy also.

[bruce381]

sulfur with or on lead will form lead sulfide which should give good a EP antiwear effect. maybe heat some lead boolits in molten sulfur?

[cpileri]

I also wonder if i should tag onto the "powder coating" thread; wonder if the nanoparticles of thsi stuff will go thru the powder coater and can be added to the coating?
C-

[runfiverun]

that might be a good addition to powder coating [dunno]

[40Super]

Get a bottle of Z-Max and cast some boolits up, dropping them into the stuff, load'em up and see what happens. Maybe it would work, maybe not. Or maybe Slick 50?

[milprileb]

Setting aside if any benefit can be obtained in whatever solution you quench bullets dropped from the mold. Lets say it adheres and gives you a lubrication advantage: then you size the bullet and you've now gained zero. Bearing surfaces that had lube are sheared off in the sizing die. I don't see any gain here

[40Super]

Sizing shouldn't shear anything off, it should more or less swage the bullets down, so then nothing should be taken away. either way ,I wouldn't think anything that is thin enough to soak in will have the lube and shear properties to hold up by itself. But you never know.

[Jim]

Below is a photo of two 50 grain 'Bator' boolits. The one on the left is as cast and tumble lubed in graphlox. The one on the right is the same but run through a Lee .225 sizer die. The lube on the right boolit has been sheared off the bearing surfaces.

56325

Alox or any blend using alox is a bearing surface lube. If you lube a boolit with that type of lube and run it through a sizer and then load it without relubing it, you might as well shoot the boolit without any lube to start with.

[DRNurse1]

Below is a photo of two 50 grain 'Bator' boolits. The one on the left is as cast and tumble lubed in graphlox. The one on the right is the same but run through a Lee .225 sizer die. The lube on the right boolit has been sheared off the bearing surfaces.

56325

Alox or any blend using alox is a bearing surface lube. If you lube a boolit with that type of lube and run it through a sizer and then load it without relubing it, you might as well shoot the boolit without any lube to start with.

Jim:

Excellent images and, folks, this is a great thread. Has the plasticity of the lube been addressed? Won't the lube liquefy and/or vaporize and precede the boolit down the barrel nullifying the small loss of lube on the bearing surface? Just my thought.

Also, has the carrier substance (Sulfer?) any effects we should address.

One thing I noted about HBN was the difficulty keeping it in solution. Would that be an issue in a Lube over time and in a cartridge in storage?

Thank you for your insight on these topics. This is a great site to 'ponder' this stuff before I go out to the range and say, "Hey, guys. Watch this!"

[popper]

Lead is not porous and won't 'absorb' anything. Sulfur locks into the lattice and doesn't make lead porous. What you want is a 'polar' substance which atomically sticks to the lead.

[Jim]

I developed a method to coat boolits with graphite using alox as the tack agent. HERE IS MY POST (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?173291-Jim-s-Graphlox&highlight=). This same method could be used for HBN as it is a fine particulate like graphite.

[leadman]

I used to coat my boolits that were lubed with Red Angel lube the same way I did the jacketed bullets, by putting them in the tumbler with moly and letting it run for 10 minutes. The moly and lube ended up covering the entire presized boolit.

[cpileri]

Jim, in your procedure, we would just substitute the hBN for the graphite?

Popper, the hBN has affinity for steel in engines, but I dont know about lead? does anything bind atomically (hydrostatically or covalently, wont really matter for this purpose probably). Do you know of anything that does bind to lead? might be able to find a "carrier" for the hBN...

Glad this thread generated some interest! Merry Christmas!
C-

[cpileri]

Ok so after a little informal testing, I have another follow up question: does adding sulfur to the cast (as in melting it into the lead pot) change the chemical structure at all?

Reason I ask is that i felt like trying, but was hesitant at the same time, so i just lightly pwdered some lubed (Lee Liq Alox) bullets by rolling them in garden sulfur. I fired them, behind a small charge of Unique (so a smokeless); and purposely did not clean for 24 hours. I got slight surface rust in the bore, which came right out with cleaning.

So woudl casting it into the lead prevent that? Might my powdering have put excessive sulfur on the bore? in any case, it reacts with the powder, or air, and/or humidity to help make a corrosive mixture.

Now, the hexagonal Boron Nitrite is kind of expensive to do that with; but I might try it. it is hygroscopic but doesnt break down thermally.

C-