What group size would you expect S/W 617 6" barrel?

[tenneesse]

Assuming the right ammo, good technique, offhand, reasonably good RedDot 10 yds. what group size would you expect to shoot. Im struggling to get 2". The rifling is crisp the cone is clean and cylinder locks up tight. I've gone so far as to shoot 6 rds in each cylinder individually (using the adjustable sights or the reddot not much difference). Its a no dash 6 shot

I really expect under 1" am I simply expecting too much. Even off a rest I cant get anything to get excited about.

Ive tried federal's. various remingtons, winchester, aguilla all under 5 bucks/50 I have not got into the upper end ammos. Am I short changing myself? I read another thead abour .22 ammo off the bench in long guns and 1/2" at 50yds using the more expensive ammos seemed to yeild bragging rights??

I dry fire (with protection) daily both eyes open high tight grip front site focus Im thinking its the gun. I have a chance to trade it off for a NIB Glock 34 without the Red Dot.

I'd keep the gun if I could learn to hit with it. Its not cheap any more to shoot .22 when I can cast 9mm and load for the Glock . Frustrated
I even weighed and sorted my remington gold (bulk) and shot groups with 6 rounds all within .1gr I will say its getting better but Ive been shooting a lot of rounds. Always cleaning after each session and wiping after each group (6)

5568355684

[BruceB]

I will GUARANTEE that a K-22 revolver (or 617 as it's now called) will group ten rounds of good Long Rifles INSIDE the 1.7" 25 -yard X-ring of a 25-yard NRA Bullseye target...... TWENTY-FIVE yards, not ten. I have personally done this, open-sights and one hand, in Bullseye competition. You have a fine revolver, and it's up to you to bring your performance to a level equal to the revolver's capability.

from a machine rest, I'd expect it to put ten rounds in a one-ragged-hole group.... again, with selected ammo from 25 yards. Remington bulk stuff is JUNK. You have to pay to get quality. I believe I'd start with STANDARD-VELOCITY CCI or something similar. DON"T clean it so often. Too much cleaning of .22s is actually bad for results. Sounds like heresy, but it's true. This does NOT apply to center-fire guns.

Good shooting with a handgun is no easy task. I can highly recommend the US Army Pistol Marksmanship Guide, from the Marksmanship Training Unit at Fort Benning. It's likely available somewhere on the 'net. It's an 8.5x11" paperback, and STUFFED with solid information. One page is titled "A Summary of the Firing Of One Accurate Shot".... that page has over ONE HUNDRED items! I'll see if I can locate a source. You have decent equipment; now you have to deal with the "software".

PS: I just did a search on google for "Pistol Marksmanship Guide" and the first item that came up was the US Army book in question...and it's available to read right there, ON-LINE! No excuses, now.... get reading.

[daniel lawecki]

Its not the gun I shoot 22 handguns. I shoot rugers s/w taurus high standard auto and single action. I have several types of ammo each of my guns are different. But if you want to sell it give me a shout.I practice 3 times a week. I hope this doesn't sound wrong or mean. You maybe griping the s*** out of the gun or too much trigger finger.

[tenneesse]

Bruce / Daniel

Its what I wanted to hear. I'll do the search now and find out what it is all about. I know its going to take a lot of study and practice. I'll do the reading and begin all over. I really love the gun and everything tells me it will do it. Thanks for being straight forward. If I knew someone who shoots that well I'd sure like to see them use this gun and do it. I have been really bearing down on the grip and have the trigger in the crease of my finger. I'll find your reference and get started... thanks guys I'll take heed to all your suggestions.

I found it (the guide) and lets see how this goes.

[daniel lawecki]

Good for you. Yes I shoot handguns 95% of the time from 22-45lc 25yrds out 50yrds

[tenneesse]

Daniel / Bruce

I finished down to the beginning of breathing about 15 pages of the total 94. What a good instruction. When I think of bulleyes shooters, bowling pin shooters 25yds and out there I can now begin to understand how you got there.

Ive been doing so many things I shouldn't most of which can be corrected by better understanding of the fundamentals and practicing them. I'm feeling confident. I definitely have something to measure against and I'm sure things will improve.... measurably. The "guide" is like flipping on a light switch.

Thanks

[BruceB]

Well now.... there's really no need to rush into it, but you WILL pick up positive info every time you you read any portion of that book. We literally wore out two copies of it, right down to tatters and shreds.

I can safely say that INTELLIGENT study and practice in Bullseye shooting did more to make my wife and I into GOOD pistol shots than anything else. She became Canada's top female pistol shooter, and held a place on the National team for some years, and I made "Master" class. Our target pistols took us from sea-t0-sea-to sea (Arctic/Atlantic/Pacific) and we met legions of fine people from all over the globe.

In our day, no red-dots etc were allowed. It was purely iron sights, which is why tge Marksmanship Guide contains so much material on that subject. The true "secrets" of good handgun shooting lie in trigger control and proper use of the sights..... and TRIGGER CONTROL is the big one. One happy result of this fact is that one's RIFLE shooting will also benefit greatly from all that trigger work.

When I refer to "Bullseye", by the way, I refer to the conventional paper-target sports such as International Shooting Union, Olympic events, NRA, etc..... not IPSC, steel silhouette, police competitions etc. However, a set of basic handgun skills will serve VERY well when starting in a new style of competition.

The sky really IS the limit!

[tenneesse]

Thanks Bruce Its really helpful information. Got thru the stance and grip sections and beginning breathing. It is so well written. A super tool for anyone who needs a good solid foundation for handgun control, like me!

Im sure it will take time. This is the first double action work I have ever tried with a revolver and the trigger on the 617 is such a pleasure. Ive always shot single action, this is such a change.

Im going to see who might be available locally I can work with who is a competitor and has gone thru the Army Pistol Training. In the reading I can see the advantage in having partner. Do you and your wife still compete? It would be fun to follow.

Ive never been a fan of the Red Dot and I do think the 617 stock iron sites could use some tuning like maybe some color, white outline rear maybe. I like conventional sites. What is your preference?

[Bren R.]

Take off the red dot - it's too unwieldy for target use, use the iron sights.

Two words will close up your groups by half immediately.

"Front sight"

Focus on the front sight. The back blade will be fuzzy and the target downrange will be a shapeless grey blob. If your groups open up, you're not focused on, and ONLY on, the front sight.

Only a few inches of anything you look at in the world are in focus to your eye at any one time. It's better in bright light, and worse in dim light when your pupil is dilated.

9 out of 10 times your groups open up from what your normal baseline is... you're letting your focus wander down to the target. The 10th time, you're usually either thumbing or gripping.

Hold the gun as tight as you feel comfortable with your middle and ring fingers back into your thumb.

Do not SQUEEZE with your thumb. Do not use your pinky. Those two fingers are just along for the ride.

If you squeeze with your thumb, you'll open up the group to the right (for right handers). If you squeeze with your pinky, you'll pull shots low.

Front sight. Front sight. Front sight.

Bren R.

[slide]

BruceB is correct. Trigger pull is the key. No offense to anybody but you can only stare at the front sight so much. A good smooth steady trigger pull will get your shots in the ten ring. You do have to watch the front sight. A revolver is a different animal and takes some work. Keep dry firing(with protection) and really focus on your trigger pull. If you run out of snap caps go to the hardware store and buy some of the small yellow wall anchors. Don't know what size they are but they will fit it a 22 perfectly and will absorb a lot of hits. Much cheaper.

[KCSO]

With me shooting or Jerry? My Smith and Wesson K 22 came from the factory with a guarentee of 2" at 50 yards. With the right ammo I would expect that from your gun.

[tenneesse]

Thanks Bruce Its really helpful information. Got thru the stance and grip sections and beginning breathing. It is so well written. A super tool for anyone who needs a good solid foundation for handgun control, like me!

Im sure it will take time. This is the first double action work I have ever tried with a revolver and the trigger on the 617 is such a pleasure. Ive always shot single action, this is such a change.

Im going to see who might be available locally I can work with who is a competitor and has gone thru the Army Pistol Training. In the reading I can see the advantage in having partner. Do you and your wife still compete? It would be fun to follow.

[tenneesse]

I appreciate all the excellent feedback. I have removed the Red Dot, Im sure they have a place and won't knock them.

I have been shooting High Power Mid Range (600yds) and fully appreciate the front site rule, blacken etc. I run about 90-92% and if I could dope the wind better than I do maybe I could measure some improvement.

This is my first attempt at double action .22's (any double action revolver for that matter) and no different than HP I have to start with good basics. Having begun studying the Army Pistol Marksmenship Guide I have found a means to set a a system combining the all the fundamentals. (Kuddos BruceB)

I was under a serious misconception that .22 ammo is cheap shooting. Well good .22 ammo can run up the bar bill quick. I'm going to try sorting cheap Remington bulk into .1 increments and see if I can use that as a approach to practice ammo then test improvement with a higher grade like the CCI. I can shoot a center fire round after casting my own WW's for about .06 a round. Ive been using sorted Remington bulk and am going to attribute my bad groups to me before I put it on the ammo.

The Army Guide I think can get me on the right track

[Bren R.]

No offense to anybody but you can only stare at the front sight so much.

None taken.

The reality is: there's no one magic bullet in the precision pistol sports.

Mental accuity is the most important part of shooting.
Stance is the most important part of shooting.
Grip is the most important part of shooting.
Locking the wrist and elbow are the most important parts of shooting.
Sight alignment and focus is the most important part of shooting.
Breathing and heart rate control are the most important parts of shooting.
Trigger control is the most important part of shooting.
Follow through is the most important part of shooting.

Only 50 things have to go right to punch out the X. They become easier with time.

Bren R.

[Wayne Smith]

If you run out of snap caps go to the hardware store and buy some of the small yellow wall anchors. Don't know what size they are but they will fit it a 22 perfectly and will absorb a lot of hits. Much cheaper.

They are the wall anchors for size 6-8 screw. Buy them 50 at a time. Seldom use them for walls, been using them for .22 snap caps for years.

[wv109323]

Try some CCI Standard Velocity or CCI Mini-Mags. They are about $7.00 per 100.

[fouronesix]

tenneesse,

Good recommendations so far.

Just thought of something after re-reading your OP. Before beating yourself up about the large off hand group sizes, you might shoot off a rest with some decent ammo (CCI Blazer would be a pretty good compromise to try first) to gain confidence in the gun's ability. Also, glad to see you removed the dot sight. The gun should at least be capable of 1/2-3/4" ragged holes at 25 yards.

If you don't have a mechanical rest then a bag will do. Just set up so the bag is at a comfortable height on a regular shooting bench and use a stool. Shoot two handed and rest your strong hand wrist on the bag. Shoot single action off the rest at 10 yards first to set the sights and get a feel for the sight picture and trigger. Move to 25 after it gets easy at 10. Then on to double action, bullseye, etc.

If after you shoot some and see little ragged hole groups you may want to try some of the more expensive dedicated match pistol ammo.

[tenneesse]

That's the plan for tomorrow. I tried off a rest at 10yds with the barrel and the butt being supported. hummmmm, I will retry it with the wrist on the bag. Going to a gun show Saturday and plan to pick up some CCI maybe some Eley if I can find some maybe some Federals. I'll see what I can find.

I just watched the 2011 ISSF world cup match 25m rapid fire. Amazing you could see they were in the zone, incredible, as each series progressed their scores kept getting higher like they were drawing strength from somewhere as the match progressed. Germany won. Never saw a pistol like they were using. Like robots. Lots of excellent photography.

Thanks you guys

[BCRider]

Save the Eley for now. Wait until you get your own skills up to snuff and then see how the premium stuff does against the other stuff. Otherwise unless you shoot from a rested position you won't see what the ammo can really do for you.

All that bullseye stuff really does work. A case in point to show how the little things can all add up.....

I was shooting one of my rimfire handguns at my club's indoor range at 20 yards. I think it was my Single Six. My groups were about 3.5'ish inches and somewhat ragged. A guy that used to shoot a lot of bullseye suggested I alter my body angle. I was shooting from almost a "flat" duelist style stance with my upper chest almost in line with the line of fire. He suggested that I stand more at around a 45. He then suggested I close my eyes, relax and raise my arm and point then open my eyes. The idea is to get to where you lift your arm in a natural manner so the body isn't being strained to hold less naturally. Just this one little factor managed to consistently shrink and tighten my groups for the rest of the night down to between 2.5 and 3 inches. And the "core" of the groups was quite a bit tighter than even this if i was allowed to toss out the outer "flyers". I've since found that for 20 yard shooting I can do this more or less on demand if I'm in the right condition for any given session. If I'm tired or otherwise not on the ball my 20 yard groups open up to more around 3.5 to 4 inches again and the amount of "flyers" goes up as well.

This was only ONE factor. Add all the others that you're finding from that book and the replies around here together and you should see a big improvement. It's still a skill which you need to hone but it's good to get the PROPER basics nailed down first.

Oh, your own condition can also play a big part. If your arm isn't comfortable holding the weight of the gun at arm's length for long then don't be shy about lowering it and resting between shots. And if you tend to drink more than your share of coffee try reducing the intake or switching to decaffinated for a while and see if that helps.

Finally, it doesn't hurt to have the gun get checked by someone that knows their stuff. It's hard to imagine a 617 getting out of timing but it's possible that poor cleaning practices by a previous owner may have damaged or eroded the muzzle crown or rifling right at the end of the barrel. Fixing such things would require a knowledgable smith to do the work. But if either is a factor in your particular gun then the work being done might just restore that last bit of accuracy.

In the meantime though keep working with your own technique and see just how far you can get with that first of all.

[tenneesse]

I'll just keep working it.

[williamwaco]

Smith and Wesson revolvers:
Accuracy expectations:

Based on 50 years with upwards of 50 revolvers.

25 yards factory sights:
( and young eyes )

.22LR 1 to 1.5 inches depending on ammo.
.32 S&W Long factory wad cutters 1"
.38 Spec factory wadcutters 1"