Gun Safe Advice?

[BD]

I've become aware that I'm currently living in an environment wwhere an actual gun safe would be a prudent investment. I don't need a big one, a dozen long guns and a dozen handguns with a little room for insurance policies and cameras. My upper limit is about $1,000 and I'd like the max fire and theft resistence for the money. Name brands and fancy paint doesn't mean a thing to me. Weight in the 500 to 600 lb range seems like something I could handle with a dolly and one helper. Any Advice?
BD

[dragonrider]

I bought a used Browning for $350, just the size you mentioned. Look for a used one, safes are not an item that take a beating so a used one is usually as good as new.

[Scrounger]

I had a big heavy safe like that when I lived in California, although it didn't meet their criteria for a gun safe, wrong kind of lock. But I thought it was pretty dang good. I didn't want to go through the hassle of moving it so I sold it when I moved up here. I replaced it with 2 lighter safes from WalMart, about 100 pounds each and hold maybe 10 or 12 long guns each with lots of room for pistols and documents. I think they were about $300 each, more capacity, easier to move, and bolting them into the walls or floor pretty much makes them unmovable.

[BD]

I don't think the "Gun Cabinet" sheet metal boxes will cut it here. I'm in an area which has actual burglars using tools. Much different than what i was used to in Northern maine. I suppose they come with the territory in affluent areas. BD

[Scrounger]

These aren't sheetmetal gun cabinets, they are much thicker and heavier than that. But yes, a welding torch would cut through them in time as it will ANY safe. Safes are meant only to stop the kids, hop-heads, and burglars that might get in when you are not there. The real pros wouldn't bother cutting open a safe to get $3000 or $4000 worth of guns that they would have to fence at 10 cents on the dollar. You only have to worry about these guys if you have some real money, jewels, bearer bonds, etc, amounting to 5 figure values. Even then they won't bring a cutting torch; they'll come when you're at home and when they put a knife to your wife's or daughter's throat, you will be very happy to open the safe for them. So a safe needs only protect to a certain level.

[Bent Ramrod]

I got one of those 60-gun Liberty safes. I think it was around $1100 at the time and doubtless it has gone up since. It is fire"proof" (a feature you might as well get as long as you're thinking of protection in general) and weighs maybe 800 lb. Even so, I saw a 25-year-old mover pick it up with a dolly by himself and steer it into place, when I moved in here, without even breathing hard.

Get as big a size as you can fit into wherever you plan to fit it. Like cell phones, FAX machines and computers, it will find applications for itself, all by itself. You'll automatically find more and more stuff you want to put into it while you're gone.

[Hunter]

Another vote for the Liberty.

[trooperdan]

I checked on the medium safe at Dick's; it weighs about 500 pounds I think. When I asked about having it delievered they gave me the names of 3 local MOVING companies! Just for fun I called one and was told they thought they could deliever it for about $400! And this was just a $500 safe!

[Old Ironsights]

DO your burglars steal popsicles & ice cream?

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_5830.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_5833.jpg

Security through Obscurity. :D

[mtgrs737]

Take a look at a Champion Safe, fastest growing safe company in the country for a good reason: They build a better safe for less money than the Liberty. Prices start at $799 and they have bolts on all sides of the door!

[rroberts]

Another vote for Liberty, burglars worked mine over with a crowbar. They broke the handle off and scratched it up pretty good but didn't get in. I called Liberty, explained what had happened and they sent me a new handle for the safe.

Hey Old Ironsights, at what temperature are those to double barrels best served???

Rusty

[mike in co]

old ironsides....

you are an evil evil person...and i like it...

throw a few more magnets and some postits....""need more ice cream"
"need more stew meat"

[Old Ironsights]

Nigh Fireproof and Locks too... :twisted:

[Dale53]

I posted this a few days ago but for some reason, it doesn't show up (I may have been interrupted and failed to complete, or something).

At any rate, I was a Major Case Insurance company Claims Rep for thirty years. I have seen safes weighing over a thousand pounds hauled away by thieves so that they could work on them at leisure.

After you decide what brand and kind of safe you are going to get, realize that one of the most important things you can do is to properly fasten the safe to the floor. Most safes have pre-drilled holes inside to aid you in doing this. Use nothing smaller than 3/8" bolts and 1/2" is better. If on a wood floor, be sure and fasten to the floor joists with 1/2" lag screws. If on concrete, use anchors drilled into the concrete floor for 1/2" bolts. They do not mention it in the directions, but when using lead anchors, you must undercut the holes with a hammer and punch - this gives expansion area for the lead anchor to do what it is supposed to do ANCHOR the safe.

This will insure that you get the most out of your safe of choice.

Dale53

[MT Gianni]

Dale, any thoughts on bolting to the wall only? Gianni

[Dale53]

MT Gianni;
Walls are normally built of 2x4's (1.5x3.5 or so) instead of 2x6, 8, or 10's, so that they are MUCH weaker. The idea is to give the thief the idea that the safe is absolutely immovable. You want to discourage him completely. Walls would not be my choice but of course, they would be better than nothing, I suppose.

Dale53

[crazy mark]

Around last Christmas some Walmarts out here had fire proof gun safes that will hold 14 / 23 rifles. It comes with the different parts to change the interior. Safe weighs 500+ lbs and was around $550. I have probably 30 rifles and 10 pistols in mine. It is a brand name safe as I went to the companies web site to check all the info on it. Mark

[The Double D]

Anybody know where to get locking mechanisms or doors to build a vault or strong room in the basement?

[45nut]

http://homelandsafes.com/EconomyVaultDoor.php

google is your friend... vault door kit. :coffeecom:

[Mk42gunner]

I know that Browning sells vault doors, The gun stores that carry their safes can order them. IIRC the Browning vault doors are made for a standard 3' opening.

I would check with the major lock manufacturers like Mosler or Sargeant & Greenleaf; although I heard rumors before I retired from the Navy that Mosler had went out of business.

Maybe you could find a bank or a jewelry store that is being torn down and get the vault door??

Robert

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive got a liberty that i bought on sale at gander mountain for about 600 bucks. Its a good safe but two things you have to put up with. One is the tumbler. Its such a pain in the but to spin around and around for about a week to open it. My buddy has a better safe and his is a push button lock and if i ever had to do it again id buck up and pay for a good one set up like that. Its such a pain for me to open. You about need a flashlight to see the numbers! Problem with it is is such a pain that i leave it unlocked unless im going on vacation! Im in and out of it every day and just dont want to deal with it. Second is that its a fire safe but if you read the ratings on fire safes the very alot for exposure time and the liberty are at the bottom of the heap.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

The gummint says my 5mm steel safe ain't strong enough; have to build a 8" concrete reinforced vault then bolt the steel safe inside that! (Click on the image for a slide show)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/th_Picture212.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/?action=view&current=.my_first_widget.pbw)

[waksupi]

There is a guy on BaitShopBoyz page, that is a safe dealer, from Great Falls. He really knows safes, and will give you good advise. You might make an inquiry over there, or I can see if I can track him down this evening. I believe he is a moderator, so shouldn't be hard to find. CB500, or something like that.

[BD]

I'm not a safe expert. I've installed a half dozen or so and built a couple of safe rooms, none of these were as inexpensive as the "doors on sheet metal boxes" we call a "gun safe". I make my living building very high end houses. Some have had safes, some have had safe rooms, some have nothing but the alarm system. To me a safe is all about the door, bolts and lock, both in theft and fire resistance. The "Box" is simply a structure which allows you to easily move the door around and install it. And it eliminates the need to build an interior. If you leave the bottom, sides or top of a box safe exposed to attack, or fire, you're missing the point. If a client wants a safe, we typically install it into one side of the foundation niche under the fireplace and pour it in place. The fireplace cleanout occupies the rest of the fireplace/hearth footing. Above the slab level we will back it into a closet on a small slab and block it in with grouted and reinforced block walls. The object is to force the attack to the door which should be the strongest part, and must be left exposed as the client needs to get in and out of it on a regular basis. It's not that a well equiped burglar cannot get through the structure guarding the top/bottom and sides. it's more a case of the burglar not knowing what the structure is ahead of time in combination with the need to carry a variety of tools to attack an unknown variety of substrates. One of your friends will describe the obvious way in to him, and he'll come prepared to go that route. No one but you should know how the less obvious routes in are protected. A good lock is key. Active locking bolts on more than two sides are the best. Fixed locking bolts on the hinge side are a waste of time. The objective is to make getting in a time consuming/noisy process which is more of a PITA than the contents/risk are worth to the burglar. In a fire the objective is to make the safe the heaviest, most heat resistant object in the fire so it gets to the bottom first, below all of the fuel. So far the Champion TY series seems like the best value out there IMHO. I'm still looking but I think I can get a champion for $1,100 which will offer some real protection for my needs. I could get into Ironsights fridge in 15 seconds with a claw hammer. Two minutes with just my bare hands and no loud noises in any event. I wouldn't be in his house if I didn't already know that the fridge was worth my time. Who knows that it's worth their time now?
BD

[Fireball 57]

Dale53 has some excellent ideas in securing safes. Thanks, for the info! But, be aware, a fire safe on a second or third floor, according to Newton's Law, will drop to the basement when the house floor of a burning house is compromised. The high temperatures over time can negate the benefits of a fire safe. My brother, a very competant gunsmith, is restoring a collection of Westley-Richards, Parkers and Winchester 21's dropped in a fire safe, during a housefire from a third floor. With a five thousand insurance settlement, the owner had to choose which ones to repair. The others are memories.

[schutzen]

I purchased my vault door used from a local bank vault supplier. It cost me far less than the Browning Vault Door and even less than the Economy Vault Door listed above. I did need to paint it after installation, but I still came out far ahead and I have a 36" X 76" walk-in door with an eight hour fire rating. Look in the yellow pages or on the internet for bank vault doors. Good luck!