Leading from Lyman 358477, 5.0 Gr. Unique?

[Bat Guano]

I finally used up the last of my stash of .38 Special loads with the above bullet, cast from WW, sized to .358, and 4.1 gr. of Industrial Pistol Powder. It was a nice shooting load, and leading was minimal to nonexistent. Never chronographed it but I suspect it was going about 820 fps.

To replace it I cast up a BUNCH of the same bullet, mostly from softer range pick-up lead. With no more IPP on hand I went to my old standby, Unique. Bullet lube is White Label 50/50 Beeswax. I wanted to bump the load up a bit so went to 5.0 grains. The other day I ran 24 rounds of these through a M19 Smith that shot the old loans with very little leading. Well, now I am getting serious leading in the first 1.5" of the barrel...same with a Ruger .357 NM Blackhawk Flattop that normally shoots very cleanly.

I've been at this a long time, but I sure don't know it all. I don't have a hardness tester (yet!) but am I running a softer bullet too hard with too much Unique or what? I'm looking for a wadcutter to standard velocity load for casual plinking and target work. I don't particularly like cleaning leaded-up guns, and with winter here I'd rather not be out chronographing. I have about 4K more cases to load, and I'm looking for a solution here. Maybe I just cast up 5000 too-soft bullets?:shock:

Comments solicited. Thanks.

[9.3X62AL]

I would next try the same bullets at the same sized diameter from 357 Magnum cases, using 5.5 grains of Unique. I quit shooting shorter Special cases in Magnum chambers long ago, because I hated cleaning the crud rings the practice left behind. It is consceivable that powwder gases are better able to slip past this wide spot in the chamber and initiate lead deposits ahead of the boolits, which the boolits' passages iron onto the barrel.

I would also get ACCURATE dimensions on the throats of the M-19, just to make sure the boolits aren't undersized at .358".

There is a lot more "cheat" in metallurgy than there is in dimensions. Undersized boolits haven't got a grain of forgiveness in their souls. And I would mic the expander spud in your die set, to assure that tight case necks aren't reducing boolit diameter.

If all these previous gymnastics haven't improved outcomes, then you might consider backing off the powder just a bit. I've used Lyman #358477 in WW and 92/6/2 alloys for many years atop 5.0 or a little more of Unique, and haven't had leading issues in a number of Colt, S&W, and Ruger 38s and 357s.

[Bat Guano]

Just miked the sized bullets at .358. They are a perfect push fit in the chamber mouths. The forcing cone was recut when S&W turned the barrel back recently and shot my previous loads nicely. I am inclined to see what these loads do in a .38 Special chamber, though. They might indeed act differently in a shorter chamber...

I've been casting and loading for over 50 years now. You'd think I'd have this stuff in the bag by now.

[MtGun44]

"too soft" - I doubt it. I shoot 8 BHN boolits (358477, 358429, Lee 38-158-RF) in .38 and
.357 Mag, even out to full velocity (16.3 or so of H110) in the mag with zero leading and
excellent accy. IMO, hardness is at least a tertiary variable, relatively unimportant in
handguns. Can't get over this BS about needing "hard cast" and water dropping as a
"requirement" to stop leading and get good accuracy. I spent some time water dropping
and testing ammo at 50 yds in several different .44s and found no gains in accy with
harder boolits, often found worse accuracy, often the same. ACWW or softer works fine for me.

I do it all the time and it is no particular trick. Good design, good lube (NRA 50-50 or
LBT soft blue are my most common lubes) and a good fit to the gun and you are
home free, IME.

I normally cast from air cooled wheel wts, but have specifically used some soft range
scrap alloy at 8 BHN to see what would happen. What happened? Nothing, it worked
fine, even at max loads in .357 mag. Have not yet intentionally gone really soft in
the .44s, doesn't seem to be much point, but I may try it some time to verify it in
that size.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

Some die sets use an expander spud of .353"-.354" to prep the case mouths/necks of 38/357 revolver brass. If your boolit alloy is of a softer nature, you could be reducing boolit diameter during boolit seating by virtue of the undersized spuds and case necks. This is an instance of diemakers "assuming" the use of jacketed bullets by the reloader to refill his empties.

I have found the Lyman die sets and the RCBS Cowboy die sets to be more cast-friendly than the mainstream dies being sold to reloaders, generally speaking.

[MtGun44]

Al's point is an excellent one. THE most likely cause for leading is delivering an undersized boolit
to the throat and/or barrel. Soft COULD permit a properly sized boolit to be reduced unintentionally
as seated in the brass - this has happened to many here over the years. Start by seating a boolit
normally after measuring the diameter with a mic, the pull it and see what the diam is after seating
and crimping.
Also - a push fit may be a bit small, try .001 larger as a first cut experiment once you verify that you
have control over the DELIVERED diameter of the boolit.

Bill

[cbrick]

I've been casting and loading for over 50 years now. You'd think I'd have this stuff in the bag by now.

Don't let that bother ya. I've been casting & loading for decades also and the more I learn in reality only teaches me one thing . . . How much I don't know. Part of the fun though, the education of Rick continues. :coffeecom

Rick

[Larry Gibson]

Simply try the previous load of 4.1 gr Pistol Powder. If the leading ceases it is the 5 gr Unique load. However, having shot a lot of 358477s loaded over 5 gr Unique with a similar lube I doubt that is the problem.

I suspect the problem is; "To replace it I cast up a BUNCH of the same bullet, mostly from softer range pick-up lead". The "pick up lead" probably does not have enough tin in it to balance out the antimony. I suggest adding 2% tin o the alloy and try it.

Larry Gibson

[Bat Guano]

I loaded up some reduced loads at 4.5 and 4.0 grains of Unique. When the weather "improves" I'll see if the leading reduces at either of those thresholds and adjust from there. I had hoped to pick up a bit more horsepower the easy way. Hah.

[williamwaco]

"too soft" - I doubt it. I shoot 8 BHN boolits (358477, 358429, Lee 38-158-RF) in .38 and
.357 Mag, even out to full velocity (16.3 or so of H110) in the mag with zero leading and
excellent accy. IMO, hardness is at least a tertiary variable, relatively unimportant in
handguns. Can't get over this BS about needing "hard cast" and water dropping as a
"requirement" to stop leading and get good accuracy. I spent some time water dropping
and testing ammo at 50 yds in several different .44s and found no gains in accy with
harder boolits, often found worse accuracy, often the same. ACWW or softer works fine for me.

I do it all the time and it is no particular trick. Good design, good lube (NRA 50-50 or
LBT soft blue are my most common lubes) and a good fit to the gun and you are
home free, IME.

I normally cast from air cooled wheel wts, but have specifically used some soft range
scrap alloy at 8 BHN to see what would happen. What happened? Nothing, it worked
fine, even at max loads in .357 mag. Have not yet intentionally gone really soft in
the .44s, doesn't seem to be much point, but I may try it some time to verify it in
that size.

Bill


DITTO!

ON EVERY WORD!

The worst leading I have ever experienced was with "hard cast" commercial bullets with "hard lube".

.