TP for my 45-70?

[wonderwolf]

I have a H&W 1871 tip up in 45-70 that I am still on the first 100 pcs of "load experimenting" brass. This is my first such rifle and so far I really like it. I've shot about 200 rounds through it so far ( 75 of those were to Fire form the brass because I got the brass from a guy who was going to use it for his 40-60) I shot some of my dads loads of unique 12gr and a 405 and really liked those as they were VERY light. He says he loaded them with a little dacron or kapok...But I've read elsewhere a 1/4 tear off a square of TP works just as well when using the smokeless powders.

I have done a lot of reading on the subject and know that Dacron and kapok work well but I was wondering about how consistent one needs to be with the amount and weight of those materials?

I just cast up a new batch of 405's and 500's for the rifle and will load some more smokeless in a few weeks as I really like to shoot this cheap black powder I got from a friend who reenacts (civil war) by the 6# lot for doing gun work for him.

The rifle itself is fitted with a low end tang sight by the SASS shooter who owned it prior to me. He put some nice leather work on it as well. but It really needs to be adjusted and a new tang sight put on cause it was mounted at a odd angle and to far back :Fire:

[Nobade]

I just shot a silhouette match with my new Buffalo Classic, and like you I really like it! I don't know about a tang sight though, I guess you could epoxy bed a steel plate to the stock to have a place to attach it that would be strong enough. Mine has a Williams 5D on it, and that works great. As for loads, I am not too keen on using TP or kapok or anything for filler in 45-70 loads other than compressed cream 'o' wheat or shotgun buffer. There have been too many ringed chambers from using a loose filler. If I'm shooting that new fangled smokeless powder in th 45-70 it's usually Accurate 5744, 25 grains under a 405 or 28 grains under a 300 grain bullet. Great accuracy, and no fillers needed.

[uscra112]

I dunno, there's an awful lot of "lore" out there about ringing chambers with fillers, and I've read as much aimed at the cereal filler as at the Kapok / Dacron / TP method. I've used Kapok for years, ever since reading about Col. Harrison's experiments. But then I mostly play with small straight-wall cases like .25-20 SS and .28-30 - and of course my .35 Remington.

If one buys the story from Accurate about their 5744 (or XMP-5744) powder, it doesn't need fillers, even in the big cases. I like the stuff, and I've burnt a lot of it in my Marlin 336, but I've never had a .45-70 to try it in. Up 'til last month, anyway. I've bought a military Sharps Borchart shooter, (barreled action) and once I get some wood on it, that's the very first propellant I'm going to try. (I hate shooting black in my antiques - such a mess to clean up.)

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I routinely use 1/4 sheet of TP folded neatly and pushed firmly down on a load of smokeless in things like 45-70, 50-90, 38-55,, and even 45 Colt and have experienced improved accuracy and reduced standard deviation in velocity. Several thousand rounds for sure since 1967. I have never seen a ringed chamber or barrel, but I have seen hundreds of typewriter shooters cautioning about it. I sure would like to see an actual hand-raising count of those here who have personally ruined a barrel by doing that. BvT

[wonderwolf]

I've never heard of using filler in something like a 45LC. Is this something I should look into cause I shoot alot of .44 mag but never even thought about using a filler for light loads although I dont see the point. But I got a 45LC about 2 weeks ago and will start hand loading for it in a few more weeks after brass shows up

[The Double D]

It's very important to under stand the difference between a wad and a filler. They are very different and you need to be specific about which you want or which you are using.

There is a very specific way to use a wad and if you don't set a wad correctly you will get ringing from the very first shot.

As far a fillers go Dacron and Kapok when used as fillers and not wads are universally the best choice.

A stack of card wads that extend from powder to base of bullet would be the best choice if all we shot were straight wall cases, but they are not good form if you use a BN case.

TP works but be careful, don't use it as a wad, use it as filler and only in straight cases. You have to eliminate the air space to eliminate the ringing issues. TP will slug up if used as a filler in a bottleneck case.

Cereal grains are good for fire forming cases for a reason. They are incompressible solids. The cereals can and will stretch cases with prolonged use . Not a real big problem with the straight cases but a big problem when used in bottle necks. The cereals will slug up and have be extruded through bottle necks when fired.

I haven't tried the shotgun buffers yet, but I have used Pufflon. Pufflon slugs solid in Bottlenecks...wanna see my pictures?

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I might also add I've used TP as a wad in 44-40 and 43 Mauser(5744, H 4895, IMR4198, IMR3031). In everything it comes out ot the barrel like smoke. It would be hard to find a bit of fuzz from it. In the 45 Colt mentioned above, I was using 13 grains of 2400 with a WLP primer and a crimped 250 RNFP in a new Uberti Lightning. I tried as a check as to whether the overpowder TP wad would tighten the group. It did not. I wasn't having unburned 2400 powder in the rifle bore after shooting or bad groups before the TP but I was intrested as a wad on the powder often improves grouping for me to some degree as IT CHANGES IGNITION CHARACTERISTICS. Especially in a cartridge using 5744 which routinely leaves 5744 powder grains in a rifle barrel as in my 71/84. The wad/filler thing is nebulous for some at best . Dacron and formerly kapok was used as a WAD, THAT IS, TO HOLD THE smokeless POWDER DOWN FOR BETTER IGNITION in some circumstances. A filler IS USED TO FILL as in shotgun wad columns, or COW in '51 colt chambers, or in taking up space in black powder cartridges with reduced loads because the shotgun shell, chamber, or cartridge case is too BIG as a GIVEN. BvT

[Scrounger]

This subject comes up on a regular basis and there are differing opinions about it. Note that so far that is all they are, opinions. Nobody asked but here's mine: Toilet paper, foam or coffee grounds, different fillers can react differently in different cartridges. I am in complete agreement with the statement that toilet paper in straight wall cases does no harm at all. It also does no good. I believe that we use fillers in cases where our loading densities is too low to generate enough pressure to get consistent powder ignition. Using a filler merely decreases the powder chamber, thereby increasing chamber pressure. Note there is no unburned powder grains now, velocity increases at bit, confirming increased chamber pressure. Now. I contend that those same changes can be achieved by increasing the powder charge a small amount, one-half to one grain depending on size of case. Devotees who think think there is some kind of magic in their filler material heatedly deny that the powder charge increase works just as well as their way and it is certainly cheaper and easier. And I am convinced in what I just advocated as true. What we need now is for one or more honest and impartial loaders to test and report on this subject. He (they) can report on whether fillers help or not, and whether my method does as well.

[The Double D]

Scrounger you are 85% correct. The best way to address this problem is not with fillers, but with a powder that better fills the case. In smaller capacity cases this works just fine.

But...how do you load a large capacity Black powder cartridge case with Nitro powder so it regulates in a double rifle? Or, what about a NfB load in say a Martini?

[MtGun44]

I beleive you will find excellent accuracy with light charges (10-15 gr or
so) of Unique in the .45-70 without any filler, wad or anything else.
It just works. No chance of doing any damage, either.

Bill

[John Taylor]

wonderwolf, For many years my standard plinking load for the 45-70 was 11 grains of unique. Had no problem downing pop cans at 100 yards. I don't use any filler but I do crimp the bullet.

[lovedogs]

I think I've seen this controversy on a regular basis on this site. It may never end! After talking with three different ballisticians from different powder companies I figured there must be a valid reason they all advised against fillers/wads in rifle cartridges. Every one of them was adamant about it. And they gave valid reasons for their opinions, unlike many who keep saying "I've done it forever and never had a problem". I tried 5744 in my .45-70's and it worked beautifully with no problems whatsoever. And it's not position sensitive.

[Mickey Rat]

Make it easier on yourself and start using Trail Boss. You can't overfill a case and cause a problem. Be sure not to compress the load.

[wonderwolf]

I've heard some of the good things about trail boss but have not seen any around my area yet to pick up and try. I've heard its a good choice in .500 S&W

I shoot alot of cheap black powder but I would like to load more of those 12gr unique loads. I'm just unsure of the volume/ amount to put in if I use something more fluffy (getting technical here guys) like pillow stuffer stuff or whatnot. (that was my dads original load)

[38-55]

Hey Guy's,
I'm one of them guys that have a 'ringed' chamber.. Did it on a rolling block 45-70..
I forget the load but I think it was something like 6.5 of red dot and a kapok filler..
Didn't take very long either.. To be honest it really freaked me out. Puzzled me for a long time as to just what happened. Then I came across an article in steve garbe's "black powder cartridge news" spring 05 edition that really made sense and they did some real good testing to get some real empirical data on this phenomenon. As for me, anymore the only thing that goes between the primer and bullet is powder... YMMV
Stay safe
Calvin

[Dale53]

Charlie Dell, a former President of the American Single Shot Association details what happens in his book, "The Modern Schuetzen Rifle" when using a filler OR wad.

Charlie is the only person I know that actually was able to "ring a chamber on demand". He made up several BRASS barrels (brass has less hoop strength than steel and gave earlier indications of ringing). He actually determined the reason. It was the POWDER in a partially filled case that was perpendicular to the bore that was the culprit. The wad of dacron, or whatever, held the powder in position but the powder in that position is what did the damage. He was actually able to ring a chamber without a wad by pointing the barrel vertically. The idea is to allow the powder to "slump" - that reduces the "ringing force" to the point that it will not cause a problem.

Charlie told me that he was only "proving" what a Frenchman, named Ville, discovered a hundred years ago with regard to ringing shotgun barrels. Ville was correct in his explanations.

The ringing force exists. It is especially bad in the rather soft original single shot barrels and is somewhat less apt to damage modern chrome moly barrels (they have greater hoop strength). However, regardless of what barrel you use, the ringing force is present and is accumulative if you load incorrectly.

You can safely use solid wads if they are seated from .100"-.200" off the powder (to allow room for the powder to slump). However, I only use wads in my schuetzen rifle and load at the bench. I would not use wads of any kind in loads that are carried in the field as they could reposition themselves and cause problems.

I agree with those that use the correct amount and type of powder that eliminates the need for ANY wads in field loads.

Dale53

[felix]

Yep, wave mechanicisms love parallel walls. The more slope you have in a case, the "safer" the load becomes in all respects. ... felix

[The Double D]

Hey Guy's,
I'm one of them guys that have a 'ringed' chamber.. Did it on a rolling block 45-70..
I forget the load but I think it was something like 6.5 of red dot and a kapok filler..
Didn't take very long either
Stay safe
Calvin

Calvin,

Did you have a filler or a wad? They ain't the same.

How much kapok did you use?

[McLintock]

I've used up almost 2 8 lb kegs of 5744, in the last 7-8 years, mostly in the 45-70 with 300, 400 and 500+ gr bullets. After a lot of shooting and testing, I found that 23 gr with a 405 worked equally well in both lever guns and single shots, mostly Brownings. Very consistent and accurate and almost no unburned powder like I got with heavier loads. Under 24 grs was were accuracy really improved for me. Go up to 25 gr with the 500's and stopped using the 300's as they weren't accurate enough in my guns.
McLintock

[38-55]

Double-D,
Just so we get our definitions down so we're on the same page... I was using kapok ( synthetic pillow filler) which I would say is a wad. I was using it to 'hold' the powder against the flash hole because that's what everybody said to do. I would consider a filler to be anything that takes up all the air space in the cartridge. Like cream of wheat or even a pile of cardboard wads... I have no real problem with a cardboard or veggy wad just under a bullet. Heck I even have a little pastry extruder around here some where that I used to make my own 'lube strips' to go under the base of the bullet. I feel ( and it's been my experince) that a wad under the bullet with 100% loading density ( like with black powder) can be a real useful thing.
Here's the real lesson I learned from my experience... I was trying to make a cartridge do something it was never designed to do. Expect problems when trying to re-engineer stuff. I really took a step back and asked my self what I was really trying to accomplish. Turned out I was just trying to be part of the herd at cowboy shoots.... I just settled on using my hunting load which is 25 grains of 5744 under a gould hollow point... does the same thing to deer as it does to targets..
I've really gotten to like 5744.
Calvin

[The Double D]

Thanks Calvin, thats what I thought you meant. You got ringing with Kapok WADS not fillers.

Semantics are important and this is one of those "semantical" issues that cause problems. It's the use of wads that Charles Dell worked with and controlled ringing, not fillers.

In every case I have been able follow up on it has been the use of wads that was the problem.

No one I have contacted over the years, first hand who had a ring, has used filler, they were all using wad.

[Lee]

Sorry, I've looked. I can not find a description of "ringing" What do I look for? Is this visible on the outside of the barrel? On the inside? What would one look for?
Thanks in advance for answering my question or pointing to a description I can understand..........Lee;-)

[38-55]

Lee,
"ringing" will be visible in the chamber. It will be a 'ring' where the bullet base rests in the case in the chamber if that makes any sense.Generally you won't notice it til you start having a hard time extracting shells.. It's almost non-existent in modern steel barrels though I have heard of it but never witnessed it. I might add that this is kinda a rare occurrence... so don't fret over it.
Double-D,
Glad to be able to add to your knowledge base ! I just wish that the internet and confusers where around when I started out doing all the crazy things that I did in 'the early years'. Sure would of save alot of powder and time but probably would not have been as fun as going down all the ded ends that I pursued...
One must alway strive to learn from one's mistakes.... by that logic I should be a genius, alas no such luck.. But I digress...
Stay cool folks
Calvin
Wad = a filler material that attempts to hold the powder in a particular positon but does not take up all the air space in a case usually, but not always a 'fluffy' material like kapok or pillow filler
Filler = any substance that takes up all the remaining air space in a case so the loading density is 100% classic filler is cream of wheat but many other things are used
Does that work for ya double-d ? Please add/subtract from this as you see fit. I think it is real important to define this.( I, myself screw up the definitions regularly )

[Lee]

38-55 OK it sounds like "ringing" would be a pressure induced deformation of the barrel just behind where the boolit seats in the cartridge.
Kind of like all this pressure hits the base of the boolit in the case, no where to go, makes a bulge until the boolit starts moving. And then of course the cartridge brass would extract hard, because it has expanded into the now "ringed" barrel.

I ask because I had a "swooosh" type of hang-fire in a 45-70 replica rolling block. I was using minimum published loads with legitimate powder, etc. The powder did not fill the case more than 1/2 full, if that. When I pulled the trigger, I got sort of a "fffffttt-whooosshhhh" Checked the barrel, no obstructions. Barrel looks OK. I'll have to look again for any anomalies but the whole episode concerned the bejabbers out of me. I still have 20-30 of those loads, but am hesitant to fire them. Don't know if I was experiencing a visit from the dark side, or just something as simple as a weak primer............................Lee;-)

[38-55]

Lee Sir !
I've had a lot of those over the years in straight walled cases ( and one is a .338 lapua mag). Shoot long enough and you'll have one. I don't really think it's anything to worry about. ALWAYS check for a stuck bullet after one though but you probably did... The worst offender in this regard for me has been 4895 and cast bullets... YMMV.
You are absolutely correct on the presumed cause of 'ringing'. Your description is right on the money. I only wish I had described it so well...
FWIW when I 'ringed' the rolling block everything seemed normal as far as sound and fire.....
Stay safe
Calvin

[35remington]

BVT, 38-55, Double D:

Dacron and kapok, if used to fill the airspace completely between powder and bullet as advocated in this forum, are properly called and employed as fillers. At least on this website, anyway.

These fillers may be only slightly compressible and undesirable with bottlenecks, such as Cream of Wheat or a full stack of card wads. They may be somewhat compressible, as in shotshell buffers. They may be extremely compressible and very light, as with dacron. All fully occupy the powder space between powder and bullet before firing. That's why they're called fillers here. The problems in terminology result when applied to other uses.

Dacron/kapok and others may be called wads if not employed in this manner. Some wads leave airspace, such as a single card wad in a case with a small powder charge. Shotshell wads don't.

The terminology is imprecise because we don't all employ them the same way and they use widely varying materials.

I very much doubt the safety of heavier filler material that compresses and may wedge (cornmeal, COW) over that which does not and fully occupies the powder space (shotshell buffer, dacron).

For this forum, typical use of the word "wad" is something that leaves airspace between the wad and bullet. Could be a compressed and balled piece of dacron or a fiber/cardboard disk. A shotshell loader would object to this definition, as his wads leave no unoccupied airspace, just a crush section between powder and shot.

See how easy this is?

38-55, your definition of dacron that fully occupies the space between powder and bullet as a "wad" rather than a "filler" is the first I've seen on this site, so you're swimming upstream a bit. FWIW.

[38-55]

35 rem,
Check out my post #23. I reversed what I had said earlier... I believe we are on the same page.. If not please correct me.

Personally I've always thought that corn meal and COW was kinda stupid to put in a case....
Funny lesson learned about stuff that may wedge in your case...
Years ago when you could get surplus 4831 by the truck load for a song... A buddy had a pile of it and liked to cast bullets for his old Mauser. He would fill the case up to the shoulder/neck junction and cram a bullet in. Well, his necks started disappearing. Yup, ripped right off the case and outta the rifle. Only thing we could figure was the 4831 was wedging between the bullet and the neck. At least that was out theory til we actually recovered a bullet with a portion of the neck still attached thus proving our theory... HE stopped trying to be cheap and went back to using something like 2400... That and some other lessons ( like the wrecked rolling block) taught me that the economy in reloading is not always measured in dollars and cents...
Calvin
ps 35 rem sir,
I went back and re-read my original post on this matter ( no#15 ) and I did mis-use the filler/wad definition. I had a very small amount of kapok holding the powder charge against the primer. This would be a 'wad' not a 'filler'.

[Icorps1970]

I beleive you will find excellent accuracy with light charges (10-15 gr or
so) of Unique in the .45-70 without any filler, wad or anything else.
It just works. No chance of doing any damage, either.

Bill

Actually 17 gr of Unique in a 45-70 is a known chamber ringer. Though it takes a lot of shooting to make it noticeable from what I have seen and heard.
This is the Ruger #1 load from Lyman. Some use it in Shilohs too. Rings both. Often takes quite a bit of use for the ring at the base of the bullet to get noticeable.
IIRC the Shiloh that came back while I was there had been used extensively with this load in an indoor range, 1000 rounds + as I recall. When we got the gun back and saw the rings I told Wolf it was a Ruger load from Lyman's book. Wolf called Ruger and their tech said that they had Rugers come back with 100 rings or more from using this load. My inspection of the Shiloh chamber indicated a similar problem many, many micro rings and a larger one at the bullet base that made mark on the case. In this case a 320+- gr cast.
Owner did not get his barrel replaced under warranty. This was circa 1990.
The problem is cumulative with this powder.
Fast powders like unique make a lot of of pressure in the case. It is thought that the multi-rings or burst barrels are caused by pressure waves coinciding. It happens in arms as large as field pieces under proper conditions.
I know of a man who could only be called *extremely* experienced in hand loading, big name writer, who used 24 gr of 2400 in a TD Springfield until he lost some fingers.... Used the load for decades so warnings it was dangerous fell on deaf ears.
45-70 and smaller are prefectly safe with smokeless but light loads are problematical.
Check the velocity vs pressure in Lymans book for the Unique loads. High pressure low velocity.... I use IMR 4198 for the most part and keep the velocity over BP duplication.

[HEAD0001]

I have three 45-70's. I have a lot of money in each rifle. I try to fill the case up so that I do not have to worry about a filler.

I am not saying you guy's are wrong, but I can not under stand how you can have so much money in an expensive rifle, and then be chincy on your powder.

I probably do not shot as much as some as you guy's. But I do average 2,000 rounds or more a year from all my rifle's. I realize powder is expensive, but it is not nearly as expensive as my rifles.

I use RL7-and I get good case fill, and no powder position sensitivity.

Sorry, but I am not willing to take chances with my expensive rifles just so I can save a few buck's on powder.

And to answer a question. No I have never ringed-or had any damage to my rifle's. And I hope I never do.

I have used Puflon for "Gallery Loads". It is very dirty. It is also very expensive. I do shoot "Gallery Loads". But I am very careful how I load and shoot those shells. Tom.

[4060MAY]

and
just in case you don't believe in chamber ringing and splitting.
This is a 40-72 on a Rolling Block, cork wad against the powder, corn meal filler, fixed ammo.

I told my friend don't do it, "I've been doing this for 23 years with no problem". This is a known Schuetzen shooter, left un-named.
the only way to get it out of the chamber was with cerosafe or in this case because he didn't have any he used lead poured int the barrel to knock out the case.

Brand new 40-72 (40-63 everlasting) on a side lever rolling block.

[Boz330]

Out of curiosity where did the a$$ end go, or was it knocked off trying to get the case out? And was the whole gun ruined or just the barrel? Expensive lesson for sure!!

Bob

[4060MAY]

When he extracted the case the head come off, left a shiny spot where the case slipt.
we tried reverse brush, broken shell extractor for a 45-70 and it didn't fit right. he went home and removed it.
There isn't any felt spot in the chamber but it can be seen.
He was really worried, first time he shot the gun. built in part by Bob Roller.
A side lever Rolling block, double set triggers, gun is set up for schuetzen.
when he comes back in the spring, I'll get a picture.

[Dale53]

I used to shoot Buffalo Silhouette with Bob Roller down in "Old Towne" Kentucky. Really nice and talented fellow.

Dale53