Casting for 5.56 (223) NATO

[genesis]

I shoot nothing but my cast bullets in all of my guns. I cast with straight wheel weights. I just bought a brand new Saiga 5.56 NATO (223) Sporter. It's an AK variant. I'd like to try some low velocity cast bullets with this gun. I'd prefer not to use gas checks. I don't care if it doesn't cycle the action and turns it in to a single shot. Heck, I'd like that. Wouldn't have to chase the darn brass. These would be for plinking/play. Any ideas? Your thoughts and suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Also, has anyone used cast bullets in their AK/AR 5.56 NATO (223) and got the action to cycle, without leading?

Thanks guys,

Don <><

[Moonie]

I use 16gr H4895 in a mid-length AR with gas checked 60gr NOE 221, cycles perfectly, no leading.

[badluther]

I am have been working on load development for 62 gr Mihec NATO cast bullets with gas checks. I'm using IMR 4895 and found that 19.30 grains of powder I would get no ejection of cases. Shot like a .22lr rifle. One thing interest worthy: I'm using the Dillon trimmer on my press and it works slick, however the straight cut that it gives makes it hard to seat the cast/GC bullets. I give a little twist with an old chamfer (sp?) tool to ease in seating. Reduces the lead shaving as well. My cast bullets are 50/50 and so far no leading.

[Moonie]

I am have been working on load development for 62 gr Mihec NATO cast bullets with gas checks. I'm using IMR 4895 and found that 19.30 grains of powder I would get no ejection of cases. Shot like a .22lr rifle. One thing interest worthy: I'm using the Dillon trimmer on my press and it works slick, however the straight cut that it gives makes it hard to seat the cast/GC bullets. I give a little twist with an old chamfer (sp?) tool to ease in seating. Reduces the lead shaving as well. My cast bullets are 50/50 and so far no leading.

You aren't using an m-die or other case expander? You really need either an m-die or lee universal expander to prepare the case to accept a cast boolit and prevent shaving.

Heck even a pair of needle nose pliers run down in it while closed should expand it.

[Larry Gibson]

With any 45 - 60 gr cast sans GC start at 2.5 gr Bullseye and work up to 4.5 gr or until about 1100 - 1200 fps is reached or accuracy goes south. Be really carefull and make sure each bullet of the lower charges have left the barrel. The psi could be vented enough at the gas port to leave the bullet in the barrel. These loads will not even budge the oprod let alone cycle the action so they should be what you want.....fun with minimal noise, practically no recoil and you won't be chasing brass.

Larry Gibson

[HighHook]

Great Info as always Larry...

To the OP, Thats a great load Larry is talking about and after shooting your plain base send a couple down range with GC's just to clean the barrel up.

[genesis]

OP Here. Thanks guys. Rather than using a 22LR rifle, I was wanting some cheap trigger time with my new toy, and I think you all provided a way to accomplish that. I reclaim and recycle all of my lead from my home shooting range from a simple sand trap I built. As my only recurring costs are for powder and primers, I can reload for any of my guns at around $2.00 for a box of 50.

Don <><

[badluther]

I am using a the M-die after trimming the brass with the Dillon trimmer. For some reason they were still shaving the bullets, so I chamfered the inside of the cases. FWIW.


You aren't using an m-die or other case expander? You really need either an m-die or lee universal expander to prepare the case to accept a cast boolit and prevent shaving.

Heck even a pair of needle nose pliers run down in it while closed should expand it.

[cbrick]

I am using a the M-die after trimming the brass with the Dillon trimmer. For some reason they were still shaving the bullets, so I chamfered the inside of the cases. FWIW.

Hhmmm . . . Sounds like you don't have the "M" die adjusted down enough. Once the "M" die has expanded the neck run it in a little further to where the step in the spud bells the case mouth. No need to get carried away with the bell, just enough to get the boolit started to about where 1/2 the GC is inside the bell.

Rick

[HDS]

Anyone here have a preferred version of the M-die for .223?

Right now I am just loading single stage and I chamfer/deburr, but eventually I'll want to move the dies onto a 650 toolhead and start production, and it'd be nice to avoid the chamfer/deburr stage via the use of an M-die (I assume this would be good for jacketed bullets too). I got a lyman for my .44 mag and .45ACP loading. I believe Redding also makes these dies, as do RCBS?

[bigstarshot]

This is an older thread to bump, but I have a question about using/shooting lead in an AR. We have yet to purchase an AR but it is to the top of the list now. With anything I shoot, reloading is a must and we have been wanting to get into casting bullets. Do you have any problem with the cast bullets functioning? My son's very first concern was not leading but the aggressiveness of the AR in regards to bullet feed into the chamber. His concern was that without the FMJ type hardness of the bullet, the bullet might be damaged during feeding. Do you see an increased number of "flyers" with cast bullets that might suggest this could happen?

[wistlepig1]

Big, About your sons concern, I have 2 22cal bullit designs. One is the Lee Bantor 56gr and the Lyman 22438 46gr(as cast). I loaded one of each (no powder/primer) and put them in a brand new 556x45 chambered AR I put together last week. I put each in a Mag., pulled the charging handle back and released it. Then I ejected each round, The 438 had NO marks from being loaded. Repeated it with the Bantor and there was a very minor mark on it's nose. These are to very different nose styles and the Bantor didn't suprise me, as it is very blunt.

I have not shot the Bantor's yet but the 438 shot very poorly but did cycle good. I am sure I was driving them to fast, I will drop my charge and see what happens. Larry Gibson may be able to suggest some starting load info but my luck so far has not been good with a load that will cycle and hit the barn if you inside.:bigsmyl2:

My bullits are water dropped/WW/ tin added, sized .226"

[elginrunner]

I've gotten the NOE 70grain mold. It cycles in my AR with 15 grains of Reloader 22. I don't know what type of group it shoots, but get pepsi can accuracy at about 100 yards.... as that is about all I use it for :bigsmyl2:

[bikerbeans]

Whistle Pig,

is the Lee Banter, actually the Lee Bador (Bator?) mold? A friend of mine has the lee bator 22cal mold and he sent me a 100 55g, GC boolits and they are stubby little things. I checked max. length in my wife's M4 and I have a COL of 1.95". They feed by hand and I will try them at the range tomorrow. I loaded them with 2400 using lyman's data so I am not expecting the gun to cycle properly. I just want to play with them for accuracy and leading issues and then decide if I want to go further.

BB

[wistlepig1]

Yes Sir, I mispell every thing and sometimes it really gets me in trouble!
Yes they are a stubby little thing, In my M4 the COL is .2005(Lee), this barrel is a 1/9 556x45 Chamber.

I was out today shooting the Lyman 438 in it. I was getting " min. of Barn" with them at 100 yds. The gun with J words will shoot 7/8" @ 100 with standard nothing special loads. I am using ACC. 2460, my rifle powder for 223, 22-250. I am afraid it is to hard on these little pills but wanted to try and did get cycling down to 16 grs and above. I have not use a chrono on them because they have been so poor. I didn't want to have to get a New One. The 14.5 grs did shoot fair but wouldn't cycle (be good for a bolt gun).
I may get out and try the Lee's later this week but my wife had Both knee replace and I have been staying home a lot and not much range time. I don't know if any of this is of help but it is big boy fun!:bigsmyl2:

[Wilkie]

I use 19.0 grains of H4895 under a NOE 55 grain cast .224 using CCI Small Rifle Primer. Cycles well with a velocity of 2110 fps with a 20" barrel 1/9 twist. With the lack of H4895 around here lately I'm going to work up a load for H4198.

[grampa243]

14.4 grains of IMR4198 behind boolits from the "HM² 223 AR mold 225-62-1" it's cycles good and shoots well at 100 yards.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?205195-loading-HM%B2-223-AR-mold-225-62-1

[Boolseye]

I found that little 438 to be pretty accurate with charges of 700x between 6 and 7 grains. 8 grains of Unique also shot good.
Velocities were between 1900 and 2300 fps, but this was with a TC Encore in .223. Everything shoots good in that gun, the barrels are amazing.
Haven't tried those loads in my AR.

[oldandslow]

bss, 9/18/13

I cast and reload a NOE 70 grain mold for my LMT 1:7 twist AR. I heat treat them to make them harder. I did have to play with the COAL (cartridge overall length) to find which length fed from the magazine into the chamber with the least boolit gouging/scraping. Mine run 2.4 MOA accuracy at about a 1950 ft/second velocity. Much faster than that and the boolits become unstable/inaccurate and the nose may deform or twist off. I did have some short-stroking of the action since the boolit velocity is a fair bit slower than FMJ's and went to a reduced power buffer spring from Wolf (via Brownells). I've got about 600 rounds through my AR without any leading and it functions well with the reduced power buffer spring. Good luck.

best wishes- oldandslow

[Wilkie]

bss, 9/18/13

I cast and reload a NOE 70 grain mold for my LMT 1:7 twist AR. I heat treat them to make them harder. I did have to play with the COAL (cartridge overall length) to find which length fed from the magazine into the chamber with the least boolit gouging/scraping. Mine run 2.4 MOA accuracy at about a 1950 ft/second velocity. Much faster than that and the boolits become unstable/inaccurate and the nose may deform or twist off. I did have some short-stroking of the action since the boolit velocity is a fair bit slower than FMJ's and went to a reduced power buffer spring from Wolf (via Brownells). I've got about 600 rounds through my AR without any leading and it functions well with the reduced power buffer spring. Good luck.

best wishes- oldandslow

What Powder and how many grains did you use with the NOE 70 Grain? What was you COAL?

[wistlepig1]

I was out doing a little P doggin today with my Hornet and 223 my bolt gun. After that I got out some test rounds for the Lyman 438. I was using 8.0 grs of Unique and getting fair results (2 1/2") with a few flyers, l will try 7.5 and 8.5 next time. I had an M4 with me but run out of test rounds before I could try it, I don't think they would have cycled. The 438's were half HP'ed and half standard, My Al chex, with BULL lube @ 100 yds. The HP's targeted slightly better but with a small sample of each I don't read much into that. A work in progress!

[Boolseye]

The 438's were half HP'ed and half standard

you drill them out? Forster?

[wistlepig1]

Yes Boolseye, I drilled them with a lathe and center drill, you have to be very gentle with them. They were easy to drill and I had read that changes the center (move it to the rear of the bullit over the driving bands). You should remember that I shot a very small sample (8). I will continue to test and report later.

[oldandslow]

wilkie, 9.20.13

You asked what powder and load I am using and the COAL for my NOE 70 grain mold in my 1:7 twist LMT AR.

Since I live in a remote part of the US where Fedex and UPS don't ship I can only use what my small LGS has in stock. I've been using 4064 in my Dillon 650 and Rockchucker Supreme single stage press. Twenty grains works well with action functioning (with the reduced power Wolf buffer spring) and accuracy. I've tried a number of COAL's starting with the longest that would fit in the mag- 2.250". The nose-ogive would hit the lands and there was nose-deformity upon chambering from the mag. I worked progressively downward in COAL and found that 2.190 inches fed well with minimal to no boolit or nose deformity. I do not crimp my cartridges and measured the COAL both before and after chambering and there was no boolit setback.

My alloy is 2.2% Antimony, 0.4% tin and the rest lead (97.4%). They drop at 72 grains. I heat treat them in an oven at 450 degrees for one hour and then drop them into 70 degree tap water. BHN hardness is 15 after 48 hours. I use a Lee 0.225" push through sizer and gas check them with sizing. I pan lube and load into a case that has been full-length sized, trimmed, neck chamferred and run through a Lyman m-Die. I do not crimp the case.

I've tried loads of 20-25 grains of 4064. Velocities with 20 grains is about 1950 ft/second. With 21, 22, 23, 24 and 25 grain loads the velocities were- 2032 ft/sec, 2183 ft/sec, 2283 ft/sec, 2378 ft/sec and 2480 ft/sec respectively. The 25 grain loads were compressed charges. Twenty grains was the most accurate with 2.4 MOA. At 23 grains (2283 ft/sec) I started to get the nose twisting off the base in recovered boolits. There has been no leading in the chamber, barrel or bolt/carrier after 600 rounds ( I usually shoot about 70 rounds each trip to the range and clean after each trip).

Good luck with your reloading for your AR. Each round is costing me about $0.14 (0.5 cents for the boolit, 4 cents for the primer, 9 cents for the powder and the brass are free once-fired cases). This does not include the cost of the electricity to melt the lead, the lube or the mold costs.

best wishes- oldandslow