Difficulty Controlling OAL in .357

[Lightmkr]

First off this is a great Forum. I am fairly new here but have already learned alot and have built a PID.

I am casting/loading .357, 158 grn. LSWC-TL boolits that are .358 in dia. on a Lee Loadmaster.
The OAL is fine with the seating die but every ten or so rounds the FCD pushes the slug too deep. Is this a sizing issue?

[44man]

The FCD is trying to size your boolit. Use the regular seat die instead.

[Cherokee]

Put the FCD away and get you a separate crimp die. Or, as some folks have done, you can remove the sizing ring from the die and then just use the crimp portion; don't know how hard removing the ring is.

[Gohon]

Something doesn't sound right...........how would it be possible for the FCD to push a loaded bullet deeper into the case when it is a Colet type die that pushes in from the sides? Sizing the slug to a smaller diameter yes but seating the slug deeper....I don't think so. I've used the FCD for years and never heard or observed this problem. Unless you are measuring every round that has just been seated, I suspect it is the seater die that is the offender, especially if using LLA which can cause a buildup of lube on the seater die stem.

Removing the crimp ring on a rimmed cartridge FCD is very easy. Screw the die into the press, remove the internals from the die, drop a case mouth first into the die. The rim will catch the top portion of the carbide ring. Take a flat faced punch and place it on the head of the case and with a couple whacks of a hammer the ring will pop right out.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Are you sure you're not getting boolit lube build up in the seater plug?

[Lightmkr]

Brand new dies, only 50 rounds loaded. Do you think the die may be defective? When I noticed the problem I would take a round out and measure after seating then after FCD. they were fine at seating and short after FCD. Also with only one round in the press when it gets to the FCD it is not smooth like other rounds, it kind of crunches.

[dragonrider]

"Something doesn't sound right...........how would it be possible for the FCD to push a loaded bullet deeper into the case when it is a Colet type die "

The 357 FCD is not a collet die. You are thinking of the rifle dies, different animal.

[fredj338]

Simple, don't use the crappy LFCD. Just get another seating die & pull the seating stem & crimp separately.

[Gohon]

The 357 FCD is not a collet die.

You are correct.........I was confusing the rifle die with the pistol die. However, everything still points to the LLA as the problem. If the nose of the bullet isn't kept clean of the lube the seater or crimp die will have a lube build up that causes this problem. Either clean the bullet nose before seating/crimping or take the die apart for cleaning every so often. Only takes a few seated bullets to cause the problem. Or do as I do......use the dip method and lube never touches the bullet nose and the die stays clean.


Simple, don't use the crappy LFCD

There is nothing crappy about the Lee Factory crimp die. They work very well if common sense is used. Doesn't matter if a regular seater/crimp die is used or the LFC die....the build up will happen if using LLA and the bullet nose isn't kept clean. Of course I am assuming that LLA is being used since the OP said they were tumble lube bullets he was loading.

[41 mag fan]

I'd just use the seater/crimp die and forget the FCD. the FCD is really needed with 1911 style pistols. I've never used one on a caliber like the 357.

[David2011]

Lightmkr,

Welcome to the forum.

Can you measure the OD of your boolits before running them through the FCD and then again after they've been pushed down? Just wondering if they might be a hair oversize and the FCD could be pushing them down until they encounter enough drag to get resized.

Beyond just figuring out "why," I agree with those who suggest using another seat/crimp die- one to seat and one to crimp.

David

[Gohon]

David, the carbide ring in the LFCD does indeed swage the cartridge case down to factory specs if the bullet is oversized. But, it is working on the outside of the case, not the bullet surface at any point. Most of the force is applied on the down stroke after the bullet is crimped which can cause a slight bulge at the case mouth area. If the bullet is large enough that the crimp die is swaging it down the loader will diffidently feel it on the upstroke and down stroke. I cannot see any means for the bullet to be moved deeper into the case. The OP stated "every ten or so rounds the FCD pushes the slug too deep". Now ask yourself, what is changing after ten or so rounds? Why aren't bullets 1-9 being seated deeper?.....lube buildup on the bullet nose is the only logical answer.

BTW, I should have noted in my previous post that there is such a thing as a collet Lee FCD for pistol bullets. I have two of them....one for the 45 Colt and one for the 357 magnum. These were made and distributed by Ranch Dog and Lee will make one for you on special order.

[DLCTEX]

Ditch the straight liquid alox and search for the Recluse tumble lube threads. That will end the lube buildup problems.

[atr]

Jim Flinchbaugh: Are you sure you're not getting boolit lube build up in the seater plug?

Jim is right on....pay attention to lube buildup
atr

[runfiverun]

Simple, don't use the crappy LFCD. Just get another seating die & pull the seating stem & crimp separately.

can't add anything to this......

[44man]

Easy to check, clean the die and take a boolit and see if it slides through, try a bunch because you might have different size boolits.
Then crimp a boolit in an empty case and pull it to see if you are sizing it in the die too much.
You could very well contact the ring with a boolit.

[Lightmkr]

Thanks all, tonight I will clean the die and try a boolit in it to see what is goin on... stay tuned.

[JLDickmon]

David, the carbide ring in the LFCD does indeed swage the cartridge case down to factory specs if the bullet is oversized. But, it is working on the outside of the case, not the bullet surface at any point. Most of the force is applied on the down stroke after the bullet is crimped which can cause a slight bulge at the case mouth area. If the bullet is large enough that the crimp die is swaging it down the loader will diffidently feel it on the upstroke and down stroke. I cannot see any means for the bullet to be moved deeper into the case. The OP stated "every ten or so rounds the FCD pushes the slug too deep". Now ask yourself, what is changing after ten or so rounds? Why aren't bullets 1-9 being seated deeper?.....lube buildup on the bullet nose is the only logical answer.

BTW, I should have noted in my previous post that there is such a thing as a collet Lee FCD for pistol bullets. I have two of them....one for the 45 Colt and one for the 357 magnum. These were made and distributed by Ranch Dog and Lee will make one for you on special order.

^^^ what he said

[HangFireW8]

Something doesn't sound right...........how would it be possible for the FCD to push a loaded bullet deeper into the case when it is a Colet type die that pushes in from the sides?

Rifle FCD's have collets, handgun FCD's do not.

HF

[captaint]

All this because of one stinkin factory crimp die. Are we even sure the problem is not the seater building up gunk and causing issues. That's the reason I quit tumble lubing. Got tired of cleaning the seater all the time. Hornady New Dimension dies are really quite well made. Might try a set of them. My .02. enjoy Mike

[Wayne Smith]

These are tumble lubed. I'll bet the were not sized. Since it only happens once in a while I am guessing an overly large boolit combined with the FCD.

[44man]

All this because of one stinkin factory crimp die. Are we even sure the problem is not the seater building up gunk and causing issues. That's the reason I quit tumble lubing. Got tired of cleaning the seater all the time. Hornady New Dimension dies are really quite well made. Might try a set of them. My .02. enjoy Mike
They are all I use but you can still get lube in the seating punch, just keep them clean. No other dies have made more accurate loads except my custom BR dies.

[snuffy]

David, the carbide ring in the LFCD does indeed swage the cartridge case down to factory specs if the bullet is oversized. But, it is working on the outside of the case, not the bullet surface at any point. Most of the force is applied on the down stroke after the bullet is crimped which can cause a slight bulge at the case mouth area. If the bullet is large enough that the crimp die is swaging it down the loader will diffidently feel it on the upstroke and down stroke. I cannot see any means for the bullet to be moved deeper into the case. The OP stated "every ten or so rounds the FCD pushes the slug too deep". Now ask yourself, what is changing after ten or so rounds? Why aren't bullets 1-9 being seated deeper?.....lube buildup on the bullet nose is the only logical answer.

Good answer up until that last sentence.

Since the FCD does NOT bear upon the nose of the boolit, how can lube build-up cause deeper seating?¿ IT CAN'T!

Here's what I think is happening. The 357 FCD is supposed to be a roll crimp die. The ledge the serves as a crimper isslightly larger than boolit max diameter. The boolit slips inside that ledge/ring to bear on the case mouth to turn it inwards to force the edge of the case mouth into the crimp groove, or cannelure. IF the boolit is oversize, it COULD catch on that crimper ring, seating the boolit deeper.

Carefully inserting the round into the crimp die, looking for it to "catch" on that ring long before it should be experiencing any resistance, would prove that theory.
Edit; Or try passing some bare boolits through the FCD to see if they go all the way to the top, past the crimp ring. If they don't they would catch while being crimped, seating the boolit deeper.
That's my guess--!?¿

[Gohon]

Here's what I think is happening. The 357 FCD is supposed to be a roll crimp die. The ledge the serves as a crimper isslightly larger than boolit max diameter. The boolit slips inside that ledge/ring to bear on the case mouth to turn it inwards to force the edge of the case mouth into the crimp groove, or cannelure. IF the boolit is oversize, it COULD catch on that crimper ring, seating the boolit deeper.

I think you're thinking in the right direction but if the bullet was that much over sized it would have to be of a diameter larger than the case to catch on the crimping ledge......I think. However, lube build up of the LLA type that is up above the crimp ledge can and will come into contact with the bullet nose and possible push the bullet deeper before the case mouth reaches the crimp ledge. This is especially true with a bore riding nose design such as Ranch Dogs molds and though the casts the OP is loading doesn't fall into that category it can still happen.

Those using a lube sizer don't have to deal with this problem but if one is using LLA and tumble lubing, that is one of the downsides of this type of bullet lubricating. As I mentioned before I dip my casts instead of tumble lubing and it is slower but it works well and I enjoy everything about casting. That is except smelting wheel weights which I've been doing the last couple nights.

[Lightmkr]

Heres the deal. Took the FCD off turned it over and found that a boolit does not drop through the crimper hole. Took a factory bullit measured it at .358 it would not drop through either. Something is amiss with the FCD. SO I left it off reset the seater die to slightly crimp, checked the seater, there was zero lube build up. Once OAL was set the boolits worked fine. SO anybody want a good deal on a slightly used FCD?
Thanks to all it was a good learning experience.

[dragonrider]

BTW, I should have noted in my previous post that there is such a thing as a collet Lee FCD for pistol bullets. I have two of them....one for the 45 Colt and one for the 357 magnum. These were made and distributed by Ranch Dog and Lee will make one for you on special order.

Yes, something I should have remembered as I have two of them and they are the best crimping tools I have ever used. Everyone should have them in their reloading tool box.

[mdi]

Well, I gotta dump my $.02 worth in here (it's been a bad morn. so far, and I feel like a rant!). The FCD (for handgun cartridges) is for correcting mistakes made from mis-adjusted dies. Someone doesn't know how the buldge got in their cases, so they buy a fix-it die to resize the cartridge after it's done. I've only loaded 45 ACP rounds for 11 years (185 fr SWC lead and jacketed, up to 230 gr RN lead and jacketed and a bunch of bullets in between) and never had a problem chambering a round, and I've only reloaded mebbe 1,000 9mm rounds and never had a round that didn't chamber after I adjusted my seating and crimping dies correctly Also, think of the billions of 45 ACP rounds reloaded before Lee introduced it's FCD. So, if you can't figger out how to use your dies correctly, or too lazy to adjust them or find out how to adjust them, get an FCD.

I tried an FCD once on .44 Magnum ammo and got leading with lead bullets. And no improvement/difference at all. Definately not needed for a straight walled revolver round! I tried knocking out the carbide ring and just crimping with the FCD and got a really ragged/unsatisfactory crimp, so I went back to my Redding Profile Die.

Really it doesn't matter to me what/how you choose to reload, but I believe that they way Lee's FCD is praised is just mistaken "loyality", part of today's faster, more, quicker thinking for reloading.

Not Lee bashing; I have a bunch of Lee equipment/tools/molds and think Lee is a very innovative company. I have the collet style crimp die for two rifle rounds and like them a lot. Just get tired of the misplaced praise of a post-seating-sizing die...

Rant off...

[snuffy]

Well I'll be darned, I was right!:?

MDI, I agree that SOME times the Lee FCD is a solution to other problems, a band-aid. Especially when using oversize-for-caliber-boolits. I also have started using Redding profile crimp dies in several loadings.

[Lightmkr]

snuffy=winner!

[44man]

Well I'll be darned, I was right!:?

MDI, I agree that SOME times the Lee FCD is a solution to other problems, a band-aid. Especially when using oversize-for-caliber-boolits. I also have started using Redding profile crimp dies in several loadings.
I have many Redding profile crimp dies but many of my boolits will not go through them and get sized. same thing, if a boolit will not slide through, use the regular seat, crimp die.
If the boolit will not go through the top, the die will size the brass into the boolit making it too small for the gun if you need a larger boolit.