No cartridge at all?

[pmer]

I'm writing about the strange and wonderfull Savage muzzleloader using smokeless powder. I got to reading about these and they seemed attractive to me. I know it's a front stuffer but think of it from a cartridge point of view for a second. You use smokeless powder, one of the book loadings is 44 grains of AA5744. I got a doe using this with a sabot and 300 grain boolit. The book says it should be close to 2218 FPS. Way more than what is needed for a whitetail at 15 yards.

What would be wrong using 30 or 35 grains? There is no need to use fillers or dacron because you don't have a cartridge OAL to follow. Right, just push the boolit/sabot down to the top of the powder column and shoot the load to its new lower pressure? It allways has 100% load density.

Seems to me that as long as stay with recommended powders I should be able to load it from a 45-70 trap door to something past a Marlin. Recommened powders are IMR 4227, AA 5744, N110, IMR 4198 and some are using Reloader 7 too. I did try some #7 at 5 grains below minimum and kicked like a mule. I'm still shooting it with 44 grains of AA 5744 but just wondering.

[fishhawk]

Well this is probably going to start a flame war but I don't care what savage says I would never and will never use any smokeless powder in any muzzle loader regardless if the MFG. says it's OK! steve k

[waksupi]

You may want to do a web search about those blowing up.

[leftiye]

It would seem that someone has (would have to have done) done some research on this powder issue. It is obvious that the wrong powder in this situation would blow any barrel/ breech setup up.

[pmer]

I did some reading about them. I read somewhere that they were tested to 120,000 psi and that people accidently left their ramrods in the bore and fired it without serious injury. When over charged the sabot and the primer are supposed give out and help gas escape.

If your sabots are missing petals the charge needs to go down and accuracy should come back. Any gun will blow up with a big charge of fast burning pistol powder. It's a Savage model 10, if this can't handle smokeless powder, better park your 300 mag before it blows too! I saw a picture of the Savage that came apart, the article said he used 42.5 of SR 4759 with a 250 grain bullet. We'll never know what really happened there but I do know there are many Savage muzzleloaders that have been shooting that load for a while.

[HARRYMPOPE]

A few blew up when people used a BP measure and loaded 4759 by volume to black.A buddy shoots one and has no problems.But he isn't an idiot!

[DeanWinchester]

They definitely need precisely weighed powder charges. Not a difficult thing to do. Get some speed loaders and weight them out before you leave home.
I would think they have the potential to be very accurate....in theory. Be safe no matter what.

[Rangefinder]

As with anything, care and common sense will usually reign. One thing to be keenly aware of is that BP is supposed to be used as a full/compressed charge for most consistent burn and pressure--most problems you'll run into with BP are partially due to a lack of that. Smokeless doesn't necessarily follow that rule, and can have major problems when applied that way. 30gr. of smokeless in a cartridge at 60% capacity might be a low-pressure loading. But then compressed behind a sabot muzzle-stuffer fashion may tell an entirely different tale as the pressure spikes off the charts.

[wallenba]

Just so ya know.... graphic photos. http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=11187.0

[MT Chambers]

That used to always happen to Elmer Fudd's guns.

[DeanWinchester]

Obviously, the gun DID blow up, but I have to question the person loading it. To get a barrel to go daffy duck like that, you have to do something seriously dumb. I'd bet you my favorite hat this guy is at fault, not the gun.

[waksupi]

Obviously, the gun DID blow up, but I have to question the person loading it. To get a barrel to go daffy duck like that, you have to do something seriously dumb. I'd bet you my favorite hat this guy is at fault, not the gun.

I agree withthat 100%. As long as companies encourage the use of smokeless in muzzle loaders, it will continue to happen.

[pmer]

One thing I noticed is my speed loaders being designed for black powder are too big. I load them at the reloading bench while using the scale. It's kinda like putting a small amount of pistol powder in a rifle case. I think it would be better to use something smaller that just holds one charge of powder.

I don't think any of us can say we'll never mess up but these ML 10 II loaders require to be handled with respect for smokeless powder. I saw those pics of the Fudd loader before but I also seen pics of several other guns blown to peices too. Many of which I own. I'm not going to throw my Garand in the lake because someone found a way to make one blow up. There have been pics here about revolvers with the tops missing and that hasn't stopped any us from using our revolvers. I almost think I could mount a decent argument against using small charges of pistol powder in rifle cases.

I'd rather have a sensible discussion about reduced loading the ML 10 II and not this she's gonna blow like a Ford Pinto excriment that I'm seeing so far. I don't know, maybe there is too much hate for a 300 yard plus muzzle loader that can go a hole deer season without being cleaned. There are people putting 45 cal barrels on these guns and making solid hits way past 300 yards.

I looked at this system and saw through the scare of putting smokeless down the muzzle, it's very similar to pouring smokeless in a rifle case hehe. Finding accuracy was no trouble at all. 250 and 300 bullets/boolits hit to the same POI at 100 yards with my ML. 150 yard milk jugs with iron sights are a sort of benchmark for me and thats no problem here. Using sabots that can handle the Savage pressures is simply one of easiest ways to reach out there with boolits that I have came across.

I guess I was hoping that someone who knows some internal balistics would come across this thread and respond to the question. It's no big deal either way. Did Ruger have to put up with this when they came out with the 45 Colt Black Hawk? Elvis with his hips? The automobile scaring horses? The spear throwers hating on the black powder crowd? Oh man its late I better go to bed.

[161]

Don't know anything about your reduced load question.But I've shot a bunch of deer with mine using V V 110 a Remington .458 300gr HP and a Harvester Black Crush Rib sabot. Kills like the hammer of Thor. The breech plug is designed to handle the pressure. The guns are as safe as the operator. Did you try looking on Doug's Message Board?

[leftiye]

The practice is foolish. And a fool WILL come along, plan on it. Because unless very carefully worked out, it is basically a faulty procedure. As was said smokeless is not made for 100% (no extra space) loading. Only when another issue cancels this out is it safe. Like a slow enough powder to not create high pressure. Or use of a wad that is not dense to separate boolit and powder. Maybe use Trail Boss? Putting in mechanisms that "let go" to keep from kabooming is only so effective as the blown up guns testify.

[I'll Make Mine]

I don't own one of these Savage smokeless muzzle loaders, and likely never will (due to budget). That said, I think any front stuffer could be safely fired with the correct load of the right kind of smokeless powder, but no one has ever gone through the process to develop the right loads for most of them. I disagree with the statement that smokeless isn't made for zero-space loading or compressed loads -- it depends on the powder. Lots of folks fire bottle neck cartridges with compressed loads of slow rifle powders on a routine basis; a similar load in the "caseless straight wall" chamber of the Savage muzzle loader shouldn't be any different.

I think the horror stories and blown up gun pictures we see are due to someone grabbing the wrong can of powder; any gun will blow up if you give it a massive overload of fast powder (substitute Universal for 4895 in any load and you'll get a very, very bad condition). If you're afraid of the Savage with smokeless, don't shoot it. If you do shoot it, pay attention when you load up your powder capsules; load those with fast pistol powder and you'll have the same problem you would if you made the same mistake loading .458 Win Mag cases.

[JLDickmon]

I agree withthat 100%. As long as companies encourage the use of smokeless in muzzle loaders, it will continue to happen.
because you cant fix stoOpId..

[nanuk]

I don't own one of these Savage smokeless muzzle loaders, and likely never will (due to budget). That said, I think any front stuffer could be safely fired with the correct load of the right kind of smokeless powder, but no one has ever gone through the process to develop the right loads for most of them. I disagree with the statement that smokeless isn't made for zero-space loading or compressed loads -- it depends on the powder. Lots of folks fire bottle neck cartridges with compressed loads of slow rifle powders on a routine basis; a similar load in the "caseless straight wall" chamber of the Savage muzzle loader shouldn't be any different.



I have asked the same questions, and got flamed and called bad words for even asking, yet my questions were never answered, other then by anedotal/rhetorical "Evidence".

if a 45/120 loaded with BP can generate 21k PSI, why couldn't one use a slower smokeless, that produced the same pressure, in a 45cal ML?

just saying I'm a fool for asking in no way helps me, or anyone else understand why it would be suggested to NOT do this.

[oldred]

That said, I think any front stuffer could be safely fired with the correct load of the right kind of smokeless powder,



Sorry but while I certainly respect your opinion I would have to disagree with this. I know the thinking behind it is that as long as the pressures were kept to BP levels it should be safe but a couple of things about most (but not all) muzzle loaders makes the use of smokeless very dangerous. First there is the issue of the missing cartridge case to contain the gasses and on open nipple MLs there would be nothing to contain the gas except the cap, just look at how much gas normally escapes when these types of guns are fired. Then there is the fact that most (by far most!) MLs are built from very soft steel so when these factors are considered the folly of trying to use smokeless becomes apparent. I agree that if the smokeless charge, and other factors, is "just right" it might fire without damage but with smokeless things like powder compression or just a variance of a few grains can be super critical where as BP is MUCH more forgiving. So in a sense you could be right if EVERYTHING about the load was tightly controlled but the safety margins are so much slimmer on a ML there is just too much to go wrong, for instance look at how important COL affects a smokeless cartridge load so bullet seating could be even more critical than with BP, and then of course there's that all too important "Bubba" factor to consider.

[leftiye]

One must also consider that while you probly can find a smokeless powder slow enough to safely shoot a 100% load density, unless the gun is ran at smokeless pressures, many smoeless powders will not burn well at the lower pressures. Can you say "SEE?"

[pmer]

One must also consider that while you probly can find a smokeless powder slow enough to safely shoot a 100% load density, unless the gun is ran at smokeless pressures, many smoeless powders will not burn well at the lower pressures. Can you say "SEE?"

Ok that makes sense. I did some more digging and found a little bit of info using 31 grains of SR4759 in a 45 cal. Mine is a stock 50 cal. With the boolit/sabot combo I have it takes about 30 lbs force to seat the load on the charge.

The Savage has an enclosed primer design using the bolt action and the fired primers come out intact.

I also have a Knight Wolverine and its priming is much more open with a plunger that slams forward against the primer. Sometimes I've had primers come apart and felt debris hitting my face. That was with 100 grains of Pyrodex.

I have to agree the Savage is not bubba proof but what is? I think if I were selling these I'd talk to the buyer to see if he sounds like he knows about reloading or can tell the difference between smoke and smokeless.

[oldred]

The point I was making was about using smokeless in "normal" MLs that's why I said "most but not all". Obviously the Savage is a whole different critter that's designed to contain the pressures of smokeless even far in excess of those encountered when using BP, I would think the Savage would be perfectly safe with recommended powders and loads but it is an exception due to it's major design differences and much stronger steel.

[waksupi]

The problem isn't necessarily the gun. It is the idiot behind the trigger. And as soon as you make something idiot proof, someone else comes along and invents a better idiot.

[nanuk]

Sorry but while I certainly respect your opinion I would have to disagree with this. I know the thinking behind it is that as long as the pressures were kept to BP levels it should be safe but a couple of things about most (but not all) muzzle loaders makes the use of smokeless very dangerous. ..... I agree that if the smokeless charge, and other factors, is "just right" it might fire without damage but with smokeless things like powder compression or just a variance of a few grains can be super critical where as BP is MUCH more forgiving. So in a sense you could be right if EVERYTHING about the load was tightly controlled but the safety margins are so much slimmer on a ML there is just too much to go wrong, for instance look at how important COL affects a smokeless cartridge load so bullet seating could be even more critical than with BP, and then of course there's that all too important "Bubba" factor to consider.

oldred, so what I hear you saying is that reloading of any sort is very dangerous and should never be done, as you say, with Smokeless, everything is more critical....

if someone doesn't understand the issues, they should stay away from everything but factory loads.

do you have any first hand, or even second hand info on ML's blowing up with KNOWN loads?

also, regarding the seating pressure, some powders require significant compression to fit in a case, and without crimp will push the bullet/boolit back out, and the linkage on a press is far greater than the pressure you can put on a ramrod.....

I'd really like to see some pressure data on this.

all of what I have read has been regarding MODERN built INLINE ML's. I have had some serious concerns/experiences with caplocks. I won't shoot them anymore, unless I can find a LH one. I put them in the same catagory as a Rocklock.


oh, one other thing.... Pressure is Pressure, with the exception that Smokeless pressure is a longer pressure curve, compared to BP. so if the Steel can handle the pressure of BP, the steel certainly can handle the pressure from Smokeless.

regarding SEE... its an impossibility

[oldred]

oldred, so what I hear you saying is that reloading of any sort is very dangerous and should never be done, as you say, with Smokeless, everything is more critical...

No you are twisting what I said to make it fit your point of view, I never said that at all.

I said twice in that post that it should be possible to fire most MLs with smokeless powder but doing so is dangerous because the designs of most MLs make even minor variations in charging/loading dangerous where BP would be much less so. An unexpected event that might result in pressure signs in a cartridge gun could very well be a disaster in a ML and that was the point, not that it can't possibly be done just that because of the ML design loading would be critical and there's simply no room for error. If you want to pour smokeless powder down the muzzle of your inline it's your **** have at but most people are smarter than that!

[pmer]

http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_accuracy_loads.htm

Here I found some accuracy and pressure information. Looks like my load with a 300 grain .452 boolit is almost 40K PSI. Again my load of 44.0 AA 5744 is right out of the owners manual.

[Potsy]

Smokeless muzzleloaders are like any other gun period. You best KNOW what you are doing. If you can manage that, you'll be fine.
Bout 4 weeks ago I sat in a stand next to Bro-in-law while he wacked a doe with his Savage (using SR4759 if I'm not mistaken, not sure of the charge). We both survived the ordeal in tact (the doe, however, did not).
I WILL point out that I KNOW for a FACT that my Brother-in-Law rode a normal length bus to school!!!!

[starmac]

The problem isn't necessarily the gun. It is the idiot behind the trigger. And as soon as you make something idiot proof, someone else comes along and invents a better idiot.

And there you have it, it isn't just about guns either.

[GH1]

Getting back to your original question, I see no problem with reducing the load. I use 5744 in my 45-70, 30 gr behind a 405 gr bullet. I agree, 2200 FPS is a bit much at close range. I'd go ahead and back it down to 35 gr and try it. With a muzzle loader it's easy enough to spot a squib with your ramrod. You could probably go down to 25 gr, I'm guessing.
GH1

[clintsfolly]

Just found this thread. I have used a Savage or my home built Smokeless gun from 2002 till I die. Have shoot close to 2000rds having fun. My go to load to shoot it 42gr /.458 300hp rem/MMP orange sabot. With this load I have killed deer from 40ft to249yds(shot with a rangefinder). pmer STAY AWAY from imr 4227 as the powder is to fine of kernels and can sift down into the breach plug and cause high back pressure. As far as lowering your load down I have seen load listed as low as 30gr. The big thing is to MAKE SURE that the bullet/sabot is DOWN on the powder!!!! The next big thing with the savage is to watch for the flash hole size getting to big(.040 max). It' just a set screw with a .030 hole drilled thru it. Most vent liners go for a while then enlarge fast. The first sign of a enlarged vent is your groups will open up. Most have gone to a after market harden vent. If you want to talk smokeless pm me. Clint

[Gtek]

I have seen this and all the tales over the years, never went past "HUH". I have a shoe box full of M70 rec's and the thought hit. Normal bolt operation on lugs smacking disc with primer made from .473"/.532" case with modified internal breech plug on barrel internal accepting primer assembly and front stuffing. All dimensions setting seat of pressure as normal cartridge on bolt face, plus added strength of internal thread of chamber base. Several of receivers were magnums. 50k+ PSI of smokeless sabot melting play room in my mind. .400"+ kind of soft something @ 2700 fps. Just a thought. Gtek

[TheDoctor]

I do not own, nor have ever shot a muzzle loader. Am thinking about getting one. In regards to load density with smokeless, could that safely be controlled with a spacer of some sort? Say, cut a toothpick to a specific length, and drop it down before pouring the powder, to act as a stop for the bullet? Not sure if that would be safe, or catastrophic. Just an idea that popped into my zero experience ML head.

[nanuk]

Doc, with the right smokeless powder, I don't think you can compress it enough with a ramrod, that would exceed what some folks do with a loading press that has linkages that can bend steel.

the issue is not about the bullet being seated at X position, but moreso the right powder, in the right amount.

[nanuk]

No you are twisting what I said to make it fit your point of view, I never said that at all.

of course I was twisting your words, to make the point that we deal in danger every time we pull the trigger, and if anyone doesn't understand what they are doing, they WILL get hurt or worse.


I said twice in that post that it should be possible to fire most MLs with smokeless powder but doing so is dangerous because the designs of most MLs make even minor variations in charging/loading dangerous where BP would be much less so. An unexpected event that might result in pressure signs in a cartridge gun could very well be a disaster in a ML and that was the point, not that it can't possibly be done just that because of the ML design loading would be critical and there's simply no room for error. If you want to pour smokeless powder down the muzzle of your inline it's your **** have at but most people are smarter than that!

that again goes back to my first point where if one doesn't understand, one should stay away, in ALL aspects.

When it comes to modern MLers, and I am only talking inline here, the design of some limit pressure due to no lockup. (although some do have a lockup mechanism and would be safer)

does anyone have any specs on modern MLers that prove the barrels are made with less quality steel?

I have seen some sites where folks are running serious pressures, I would think matching magnum pressures.

OldRed: Perhaps I am just ignorant, but if you could explain to me how a moderately compressed (and by that I mean if not crimped, it will push the boolit back out a bit) case of X powder in a 45/70, under a YYYgr boolit, that produces ZZ,000 pressure, would produce a DIFFERENT pressure in a 45cal ML?
Cause I just don't see it.

[oldred]

With the exception of an Encore ML barrel every inline I have dealt with was just mild steel, I have drilled&taped for scopes, cut dove tails and drilled out several rusted in breech plugs and most of these things are soft as butter -basically just mild steel and they are not designed to handle smokeless pressures. The purpose designed Savage, as I have repeatedly said, should obviously be safe enough because it is designed for the pressures but look at the differences between it and a common in-line! What I was talking about is the thinking that, and I have heard this from several people, most any in-line ML would be safe with the right smokeless charge and I even agreed that if everything was JUST RIGHT the shooter could probably get away with it in most cases. The problem stems from the fact there is simply too much to go wrong and by far most MLs are too marginal in materials and design to handle pressure spikes that can occur with smokeless. Factors that would not be a problem at all with BP could be catastrophic in a ML using smokeless, a few grains difference in the charge or just a small difference in seating depth for instance. Really bad things have happened when rounds have "telescoped" in the magazine of rifles, the bullet gets seated deeper in the case under recoil and pressures rise drastically when they get chambered and fired. Seating the bullet in a case with a press is one thing but doing so with a ram rod is something else entirely and while minor mistakes might be no problem for a rifle as strong as the Savage in most MLs it could, and most likely would, be very dangerous! I never said that these guns would always blowup if loaded with smokeless I just said it was an extremely dangerous endeavor and it is in spite of what you may think. If you want to stoke your in-line with smokeless then by all means do so but don't encourage anyone else to do something so reckless!

[clintsfolly]

if your ML is NOT Rated for smokeless your shooting a pipe bomb!! But make it rated for smokeless and no more then shooting hand loads in a cartridge gun. You must use the Right powder and load just like loading rifles. Use a case full of bulleye/231 /HP38 in a 30/06 and you get hurt. Use the right load of IMR4064 and you get good shooting. The barrel and breach plug on my smokeless ARE made to take the pressure of smokeless. I used a Douglas barrel made for making cartridge rifles!! Do NOT use Smokeless in guns that are rated for BP. You may get a way with it a few time but it is going to catch up with you sooner or later!!!!!!! Clint

[oldred]

if your ML is NOT Rated for smokeless your shooting a pipe bomb!! But make it rated for smokeless and no more then shooting hand loads in a cartridge gun. You must use the Right powder and load just like loading rifles. Use a case full of bulleye/231 /HP38 in a 30/06 and you get hurt. Use the right load of IMR4064 and you get good shooting. The barrel and breach plug on my smokeless ARE made to take the pressure of smokeless. I used a Douglas barrel made for making cartridge rifles!! Do NOT use Smokeless in guns that are rated for BP. You may get a way with it a few time but it is going to catch up with you sooner or later!!!!!!! Clint

My point exactly! As far as I know (but I could be wrong) the Savage is the only one actually rated for smokeless and of course a purpose built custom rifle should be safe also as long as the proper materials and design is used. There is a huge difference between the pressure limits of a 4140 CM barrel and a mild steel barrel, while the mild steel is stronger than 19th century barrels it still is not up to the task of handling smokeless pressures. The steel used in most modern inlines is certainly up to the task for BP and the common BP subs so there simply is no real reason for the manufacturers to spend more than twice the cost for materials when it is not needed, these rifles are just fine when used as intended but as you point out could very well be nothing more than a pipe bomb if used in a manner for which they were never intended, the manufacturers don't warn not to load them with smokeless for a joke!

[Gunnut 45/454]

Nanuk
Cause your using a BP cartridge in a BP weapon designed for BP use ONLY! Subsituting smokeless powders for BP is a proven way to blow your gun up! How do you know your load with smokeless will be under the 21,000 cup/psi limit? You don't cause there is no data on the load right? Your just guessing. Are you willing to destroy your rifle and possible hurting yourself maybe even dieing? Stick with PB loads or buy a new rifle to shoot smokeless safely![smilie=b:

[longbow]

I'm with Nanuk here.

There are lots of old BP grade guns like trapdoor Springfields in .45-70 that are loaded and shot with BP equivalent pressure loads of smokeless. Let's get real here, even the factories load smokeless ammo for .45-70 at BP equivalent pressure and the loads are safe in an original gun.

The Savage muzzleloader is designed for smokeless powder loads so is safe with the correct powder and boolit combination. As Nanuk said, what's the difference between a straight walled case and a straight walled chamber? And yes, many smokeless loads use compressed powder charges so no danger there with the correct load and powder.

As for developing your own loads, I have no idea if primer flattening is a safe enough indication of pressure to work up your own loads. Best not to go there unless you have pressure testing equipment would be my view.

Now as for lightening a load, it will still be 100% loading density so a SEE should be unlikely or even impossible. Since the load is 100% loading density regardless of charge and the specified powder is suitable for the application I cannot see why a lighter charge would be a problem. However, best to check with Savage and/or the powder manufacturers for comment.

If someone is dumb enough to put smokeless into a BP muzzleloader of any type that is just plain stupid and as Gear says "you can't fix stupid..."

I can agree that it should be possible to use some smokeless powders in BP muzzleloaders if the load pressure does not exceed BP pressure but how do you develop that load without pressure testing equipment? And as oldred says, little things might add up to create a pressure spike that would not happen with BP. A little extra seating pressure, a little extra bore friction, a hot barrel, etc. A "few grains" over charge if volume measuring is not difficult but with BP not much of an adder, however, with smokeless it could be.

I see little difference in the issues being discussed here to those between loading for .38 special and .357 mag. Pretty similar cartridges and same kinds of guns but radically different loading and powder charges. Even worse are Damascus barreled shotguns of which there are still many around. They are generally not considered to be safe with smokeless loads but there is not even a warning on the cartridge boxes.

You have to know what you are doing plain and simple.

Longbow

[oldred]

Not exactly sure what you're saying, so please bear with me. First no one is saying that the Savage should not be loaded with smokeless and it's perfectly ok to use smokeless in SOME cartridge BP guns but certainly not all! But again there is more to it than comparing a thin walled (yes most of them are quite thin in the chamber area compared to an original Sharps, High Wall or Trapdoor - check them out) mild steel barrel to an old Trapdoor. You guys can believe what you like but pouring smokeless down the muzzle of an inline meant for BP will be on the ragged edge of disaster at best and possibly deadly in a worse scenario. Do as you like and argue against common sense if it's what you believe but for pete's sake don't try to encourage others to do the same!




Even worse are Damascus barreled shotguns of which there are still many around. They are generally not considered to be safe with smokeless loads but there is not even a warning on the cartridge boxes.

You have to know what you are doing plain and simple.

Longbow


Uh, Most shotgun ammo manufacturers have had a warning printed on their cartons for many years, I remember reading that very warning on boxes even back when I was just a kid and wondered at the time what they were talking about!


EDIT: I hadn't thought about that one in years so I went and checked some boxes of new Remington ammo and you're right there is no mention of the Damascus barrels, at least on the newer Remington ammo.

[longbow]

oldred:

I based my smokeless in BP cartridges comment on having seen many BP cartridges now loaded with BP equivalent pressure smokeless loads ~ even by factories ~ and smokeless loads shown in Cartridges of the World. There aren't many old BP cartridges that don't have smokeless loads shown for them. Mr. Barnes shows smokeless loads for almost every "obsolete" BP cartridge from .22-15-60 Stevens to .58 US Musket. Unique, 4198 and 2400 being the most common smokeless powders.

Also, having just re-read my post, I misspoke, I meant .38 S&W not .38 Special which has always been smokeless. A better example would be .45 LC which started life as a BP cartridge and is now a smokeless cartridge or maybe even better is .45-70.

And you'll get no argument from me about smokeless in muzzleloaders other than the Savage or other designed specifically for smokeless powder. I agree with you 100%.

Even in the cartridge reloading world accidents happen and ignorant people make ignorant mistakes. I know people that have no clue about loading and different powders for different purposes but they reload. I knew a guy years ago that told me he used to reload for his Dad's old .44-40 revolver and he just used the powder in the basement (Unique he thought), filled the cartridge and seated a bullet over it. Now, I haven't checked a Unique load for .44-40, and maybe a full case is safe but the point is he wasn't sure what powder he was using, it could have been Bullseye. I tried to explain to him that he should get a loading book and use the right powder for the job. He knew better.

Anyway, I am drifting off topic here. Any time someone puts the wrong powder in the wrong gun, or too much powder in the gun, disaster is not far away.

Longbow

[oldred]

I think I too may have ruffled a few feathers in the past by suggesting loading smokeless in some old BP cartridges and I even do so with my 45/90. The problem with BP cartridge loadings is not so much with the cartridges themselves, heck there is published smokeless data for just about all the old BP rounds and it's commonly done every day, the problem with these old BP loadings being substituted with smokeless is the old guns they are sometimes fired in and THAT'S the problem with the BP design inlines. I see nothing wrong with shooting smokeless in my 45/90 with it's 4140 CM receiver and Green Mountain 4140 high pressure barrel but stuffing these same loads into an old pre-smokeless pre-nickel steel 19th century rifle is nothing short of dumb. Also too with the muzzle loaders is the problem of the missing case which allows excess hot gasses to escape past the primer if pressures spike much above normal BP pressures, the case plays a big part in containing these hot gasses in a cartridge rifle so it's far more than just a pressure thing. I think we can all agree, and I have said so several times, IF everything is just right most inlines could probably get away with the right charge of the right powder but just like the old original BP guns (probably more so) the margin for error is just too slim! Slight errors that might even go unnoticed in that Savage inline might be disastrous in the majority of the inlines out there. I'm not kidding it's really surprising just what kind of steel is used in these things, just take a center punch or a file and hit a small hidden area near the breech and you will see what I mean. Couple that with the chamber wall thickness, which would be fine even for smokeless if it were a better and heat treated alloy, and it's just plain scary to think about busting a cap on even a light smokeless charge.

[BAGTIC]

"As was said smokeless is not made for 100% (no extra space) loading."

Not so. A lot of smokeless loads are 100% charge density or even compressed. It depends on the load.

[leftiye]

So, we should add "except in a few cases?" Yup, I was wrong. But don't use too fast a powder without the extra empty space if you value your equipment and life. Though smokeless powders that can be fired compressed do exist, most smokeless powders aren't compression friendly.