which cartridge and boolit for deer

[sven556]

I'm thinking about putting together a rifle on a savage action that will be used primarily with cast boolits. It will be used for some informal target shooting and for deer hunting. Right now I'm thinking a short and handy carbine with a 20-22" barrel and a low power scope would be nice.

I would also like a cartridge that will work on deer out to 400yds. Now, before everyone starts saying I should get closer and that most people aren't a good enough shot to ethically take a deer out that far, I know that already. Personally I've never shot a deer past 200yds but if the opportunity arose (deer standing broadside and plenty of time for me to get a rock solid position), I'd like to be able to take the shot.

I have plenty of 30-06 brass so I've been looking at 338-06 and 35 whelen. Which are both a bit overkill for deer but they look like fun rounds to try out. Or maybe I should just stick with the 30-06.

The other item I've been pondering is how these rounds will preform in a short barrel carbine and what the muzzle blast will be like. I handled a savage precision carbine at the LGS and it felt very good in my hands and balanced well so that's the style of rifle I have in mind.

Anyone have suggestions or advice on this, or should I just pick one and go with it?

[btroj]

Well, it isn't going to be an easy choice.
Cartridges that make decent 400 yard deer rifles aren't the best with cast bullets. And I hope you won't be using cast for 400 yard deer.

I would lean towards a 35 Whelen or a 30-06. Either will do quite well with cast and can reach out to 400 for deer. The '06 would have an advantage in trajectory to 400 yards.

Why or make a nice 358 Win and learn to get closer to deer. That cartridge would do quite well to 200 on deer- with cast!

I can't think of a better cast cartridge for deer hunti than a 358 Win and I don't even own one. Good bullet diameter so expansion is only needed to a small degree, good bullet weight for penetration, and proper powder capacity for easy loading. A fair selection of bullet designs are available too.

Yep, I would go 358 Win in a heartbeat.

[Blammer]

35 whelen would be my choice get a 22" barrel, or the muzzle blast will make it not fun.

I have a Marlin XL-7 I rebarreled to 35 whelen with a 24" tube. The muzzleblast is stupendeous with full throttle loads.

I'm currently shooting RCBS 35-200 boolits that drop at 210gr at 2475fps. This is pretty much jword velocities, so knowing the drop will get me to 400yds easy.

[HiVelocity]

Just my .02 worth; I'd just stick with the 30-06 cartridge. Soooo many varieties of J-word projectiles available in addition to what ever you cast for. If you get tired of the caliber later on, then change out the barrel for the 35 Whelen, or similar.

I agree with btroj, learn to get closer to your game. Stretching a cast bullet out to 400 yards is stretching things a bit, IMO.

HV

[MBTcustom]

If you are planning on shooting strictly jacketed bullets, 300 WinMag, 300 Weatherby, or 308 Norma cannot be beat for long range, do it all, there when you need it, versatile, stop-em-in-their-tracks, rifle. (I plan to build a 300Norma strictly for long range use)

If you need a cartridge that will double as a fantastic sub 600yrd cast/jacketed platform that gives the best of both worlds, then I believe that 358 Winchester is unbeatable for either cast or jacketed. Reasonable recoil, reasonable powder consumption, reasonable projectile options, reasonable brass availability (resize 308 Winchester brass), and reasonable range.

If you need a dedicated cast boolit cartridge, I believe (as in, I don't have any real life experience yet, only what I have read) that 45-70Gvnt is the cartridge. I will know for sure soon I hope.

I land on 358 Winchester as being my favorite cartridge of all time. I have built quite a few of them and have used several barrel lengths. That has got to be the most understated cartridge in history! It works and works very, very, well.

[sven556]

This one is meant to be a strictly cast bullet gun. Why is cast not suggested for 400yds? I understand that most cast bullets have a considerable amount more drop than jacketed rounds (which means range estimation is important!) but if one can compensate for that; the accuracy should still be there.

Currently, I'm using a remington 700 30-06 and a winchester 94 30-30. Which, honestly, cover my bases completely! The 94 is my go to gun for short work (200 yds and less) and has been amazing in that role. There has been a couple times where I saw a deer at 250yd or so and only had the 94. I hate sitting there knowing I'm capable of making a shot, with a good scoped rifle, but not sure about a shot with a iron sight 30-30!

The 30-06 is perfectly capable with the jacketed bullets I've been using and most likely with cast bullets also. But I'm looking for something different and might sell the 30-06 to a friend. So, I'm looking into something new!

I appreciate the recommendations for the 358 win! Is there any reason I shouldn't go with the 35 whelen? Same caliber, and as I have a large amount of 30-06 brass around, and no 308 brass, I'm leaning towards 30-06 variants and the 35 whelen can always be downloaded to 358 win specs.

[MBTcustom]

Cast lead boolits have an Achilles Heel: Speed.
They have trouble getting past 2000-2600 FPS accurately. This is because the lead is not strong enough to have meaningful purchase on the rifling past 2000fps.
Because they are going so slow, this creates another problem for long range because they will cross the sound barrier much sooner. This phenomenon reeks havoc with lightweight projectiles; the more massive the projectile, the less effect this has.
Because of this, if you want accurate long range shooting, you need a cartridge that will spit out a heavy projectile of about 500 grains and push it as fast as you can. The men that enjoy shooting 500 grain projectiles at 2000fps+ are few and far between, so now recoil becomes a factor (again to the detriment of speed).
However, if you have a well built rifle, and an accurate way of judging distance, 45-70 (or similar) will drop them puppies right where you aim them.

Now, 35 whelen n dealin;-) is a great cartridge, but again, you are married to this 2000-2600fps threshold (honestly, if you get any faster than 2400 then you eat more wheaties and get up earlier in the morning than I do) and the Whelen wants to go faster than that. I like to have 90% case full of powder and that makes the whelen expensive and limited. There's nothing wrong with the whelen, but if you are after a cast lead cartridge, its going to feel like you always have this ball and chain around your leg called speed limitation.
I had what I believe was the scenario leading up to a Secondary Explosive Event (SEE) with a similar cartridge that was downloaded, and ever since then, I happily stick with cartridges that have solid load data that I can depend on, and allow cast lead to be run at published data pressures. There is a reason the books give a minimum load. And with the 35 Whelen, I would be constantly tempted to shake hands with compromise, and I don't like that.
With the 35Remington or the 358Winchester, there is no guesswork, no calculations, you just load it like the book says and go shooting.

[btroj]

Lack of initial velocity along with most cast bullets being flat or round nosed means much velocity reduction at 400 yards. Lower velocity means penetration could be an issue. Bullet weight will help but heavier bullets start even slower.

To me the biggest advantage to the 358 Win over the Whelen is the smaller case volume. Easier to load for reduce charges in my opinion. It also will just about equal anything the Whelen can do with cast unless up want to shoot really heavy for caliber bullets.

If you want to shoot deer at 400 yards then use jacketed. If you want to hunt with cast then understand you have limitations. I often hunt with rifles where I won't take a shot past 100 yards. To me the way I get a deer is more important than actually shooting a deer.

[MBTcustom]

To me the biggest advantage to the 358 Win over the Whelen is the smaller case volume. Easier to load for reduce charges in my opinion. It also will just about equal anything the Whelen can do with cast unless up want to shoot really heavy for caliber bullets.

If you want to shoot deer at 400 yards then use jacketed. If you want to hunt with cast then understand you have limitations. I often hunt with rifles where I won't take a shot past 100 yards. To me the way I get a deer is more important than actually shooting a deer.

I have to agree. Very well said, especially that last sentence.

[waksupi]

I've crawled up on more than one antelope on bare prairie and killed them with flintlocks and pistols. The thing to learn to do is to hunt, not lob bullets. The .358 win gives you a good usable range of 200+ yards point blank. The.35 Whelen is over bore, and the same usable velocities can be achieved with the .358.

[Tazman1602]

What btroj said....very well said also btroj!

Art


Lack of initial velocity along with most cast bullets being flat or round nosed means much velocity reduction at 400 yards. Lower velocity means penetration could be an issue. Bullet weight will help but heavier bullets start even slower.

To me the biggest advantage to the 358 Win over the Whelen is the smaller case volume. Easier to load for reduce charges in my opinion. It also will just about equal anything the Whelen can do with cast unless up want to shoot really heavy for caliber bullets.

If you want to shoot deer at 400 yards then use jacketed. If you want to hunt with cast then understand you have limitations. I often hunt with rifles where I won't take a shot past 100 yards. To me the way I get a deer is more important than actually shooting a deer.

[JesterGrin_1]

Even if you do not have 358 Winchester Brass the 308 Winchester Brass is easy to find and not all that expensive.

Goodsteel by the way how do you like that Hornady 358 Winchester Brass?

[MBTcustom]

Haven't tried it yet, but Hornady brass speaks for itself. I will be sure to report when I try it.

Jester is another 358Winchester enthusiast. It seems that the 358Win is in the top 5 "gotta have it" cast boolit rifles. You wont go far in this forum to find booliteers singing its praises from the rooftops.

[btroj]

This is an interesting discussion. My father in law just had this discussion the other day and we decided that for hunting deer the 358 Win was about ideal. Right powder capacity, good bullet selection, good diameter without expansion, and a useful bullet weight range. Ability to shoot full power loads with a 250 gr cast helps too.

And to think that I don't own one.

What Waksupi said is dead on. Learn to hunt, not shoot deer. Get close. Make it personal. I have shot many deer at ranges well under 25 yards while wearing hunter orange. I was sitting on a stool or the ground for these shots. It can be done, you just have to buy into it.

[MBTcustom]

Of course, even though 200yds isn't exactly "seeing the whites of their eyes" I wouldn't hesitate taking that shot, even with a cast lead boolit. Heck with a 200 grain boolit at 250yrds, the 358 winchester has twice the punch that a 45ACP has at the muzzle.

[Wolfer]

Before elk season this year we were lining up my 700 rem 30-06 with 168 gr TSX @ 2800 fps.
With the bullets landing 2" high @ 200 my cast loads of 311041 @ 1700 fps were only a couple inches low @ 100. If I so chose I could carry the cast in the gun and slip in a bullet if the situation called for it.
Like Btroj I'm more about the hunt than the kill.

[JesterGrin_1]

Ok I will throw some information in here.

Here on the Forum the first Rifle I have had built in my Life was a 35 Whelen. I was not too happy with it as for a Cast BOOLIT Rifle. It takes more powder along with being careful not to exceed the cast boolit speed to gain good accuracy. Soooooooooooooooooooooooooo

I had a 358 Winchester Built on a Stevens (Savage) Action. And I will tell you what if I had built the 358 Winchester first I would not have had the 35 Whelen built. The 358 Winchester can be built shorter and lighter due to the fact that it is built on a Short Action and that a 20" barrel will get everything done in the 358 Winchester that needs to be done. Brass is easy to find and re-form and factory brass even though more expensive than standard 308 Win brass is still not bad if you consider how many re-loads that one can achieve with the 358 Win brass.

As for the 35 Whelen I have sent it back to the Builder of which is going to change it from 35 Whelen to 35 Whelen Ackley Improved install a Brownells Shrewd Muzzle Brake and coat it with Dura-Coat HK Black. It will be one of my primary Longer distance Hunting Rifles shooting Jacketed only.

So in the End I stubbornly accepted the Fact that the 358 Winchester is probably one of the best Cast BOOLIT Rifle Rounds there is. But hey do not listen to me or the others. Spend some money and play around with what you like till the Light Bulb goes off in your head that says By Golly Gee those other shooters might have had a good idea lol.

[1Shirt]

You might as well squirt into the wind as to expect 400 yd kills w/cast, UNLESS------you have a specialized rifle, know the capacity of the ctg, know drop tables, and only expect to shoot it at 400 yds. Otherwise, suggest you listen to what the previous posters have stated. I also agree that the 358 is quite probably the best potential for a cast deer ctg out to maybe 200-250. There are always exceptions to the rules, however chances are you will not be the exception to the rule as the stats are probably against you. The 358 has good blt wt, excellent accruacy potential in most rifles, is economical on powder, etc.etc.etc. That said, I think that the average distance for deer killed is around 60 yds or less. My longest kill on deer over many years has been 147 lazered. Good luck!
1Shirt!

[Blammer]

30-06, 338-06, 35 whelen are all capable of getting deer with cast at 400yds. You won't need a specialized rifle for the job.

Just like with any rifle, shooting jacketed or cast, you'll have to become proficient at shooting at that distance. Choose what interests you and go for it.

I am very pleased with my 35 whelen now and if I had a 300 or 400yd range I'd see what I am capable of with that rifle and my cast loads.

My 210gr cast boolit traveling at 2475fps I'm sure rivals the Sierra RN jacketed 200gr traveling at 2510fps as far as drop and windage out of my 35 whelen. Jacketed or cast, you're gonna need to learn how to shoot at that distance.

[sven556]

Thanks for all the good info. I think I'll lower my expectations for a 400yd shot! I'm still not sure which way I want to go as far as 35 whelen vs 358 win. If I ever decide to go back to jacketed bullets the 35 whelen offers a little more, but the whelen also burns more powder for the same performance than the 358 win. decisions, decisions...

Also, I do agree with you guys about getting closer to game. I love stalking and getting in close, but sometimes I just want to put more meat on the table, we love eating venison! I could care less about the useless bone growing out of the heads of some deer! I'll actually pass up shots on decent size bucks and shoot a younger deer close by. Gotta love the tender steaks and roasts from the younger ones.

Any bullet or mold recommendations for the 35 calibers? I noticed nobody opted for the 338.

[btroj]

338 Has a problem due largely due to available moulds. Only commercially available cartridges aren't very cast friendly, too much powder capacity. They also aren't really common cartridges in all reality, least not amongst cast shooters it seems.
30 and 35 cal cartridges have a long history with cast. That makes a big difference.

[Bullshop]

358 is OK and I have one but have never used it on game because I have a 35 Whelen Imp.
One thing I can say for certain that with our custom Mountain Mold for a 270gn LFN style boolit
fired from the Whelen with a muzzle velocity if 2400fps it will drop a 50ish inch bull moose RIGHT NOW!
Only better boolit shooter would be a 375 Whelen. I have three. The custom 35 design boolit worked out so well I coppied it in 375 cal. It come in at 370gn in WW.
With it I shot a very nice caribou bull in the first week of November last. When I shot it he was an antlered bull but the inpact of the boolit caused him to throw both antlers. Both were lying on the ground near the caribou. I think the muzzle velocity on that one is 2270. There was a hole in the off side shoulder about the size of a tea cup. It has quite a whak to it.

[MBTcustom]

Thanks for all the good info. I think I'll lower my expectations for a 400yd shot! I'm still not sure which way I want to go as far as 35 whelen vs 358 win. If I ever decide to go back to jacketed bullets the 35 whelen offers a little more, but the whelen also burns more powder for the same performance than the 358 win. decisions, decisions...

Also, I do agree with you guys about getting closer to game. I love stalking and getting in close, but sometimes I just want to put more meat on the table, we love eating venison! I could care less about the useless bone growing out of the heads of some deer! I'll actually pass up shots on decent size bucks and shoot a younger deer close by. Gotta love the tender steaks and roasts from the younger ones.

Any bullet or mold recommendations for the 35 calibers? I noticed nobody opted for the 338.

"If you ever decide to go back to jacketed" Hah Hah! Shoot your first deer with cast, and let me know how those plans work out for you! LOL I don't cotton to paying big money for substandard jacketed performance. It just adds insult to injury.

As far as boolit selection goes, you need look no further than the RCBS 35-200-FN. The story goes, that when the engineers at RCBS were designing that mold, Boolette rode by on her boolit and told them how to make it. It is by far the most consistent performing boolit design I have ever encountered. If you have a 35 cliber something or other, chances are you will find instant accuracy with that boolit design. Not only that, but it feeds well in many different actions due to its ogive. They just got that one right.

[waksupi]

The 200 is good, but I like more BC, in case I do want to shoot further, or something bigger than deer. I suspect a boolit around 235 gr. would be the best all round weight. I love the Bator Heavy, which is very close to the old Lyman 358009. I'm currently using a 270-ish gr. Loverin type Mountain Mold design, that is more accurate than I am, and a real killer.

[nanuk]

I've crawled up on more than one antelope on bare prairie and killed them with flintlocks and pistols. The thing to learn to do is to hunt, not lob bullets. The .358 win gives you a good usable range of 200+ yards point blank. The.35 Whelen is over bore, and the same usable velocities can be achieved with the .358.

one day at work, I was telling my co-workers about how I can walk up on game.

they didn't believe me, so I proved it by walking within 5 ft of a gopher outside our building.

a co-worker was so amazed, he had to try it, and got with 2 ft.

Deer are the same, it is not that difficult to get within 50 yds of one, just by walking. (but there is a little secret to it!)

big old bucks are a little different.... around here, they are often already running before the truck stops.

I've even seen one that we drove by, then turned around behind a large bush area, and drove back up the road to have a look.... That bruiser zeroed in on us, got up and immediately headed to the opposite bush. He recognized that our truck had turned around. The other vehicles on the road weren't bothering him. BUT he saw MY truck coming back!!!!! And this was several weeks BEFORE hunting season!

[Bullshop]

I too got in on that group buy for the Bator heavy 35. Problem I have with it is the parallel sides are so long it needs to be seated very deep into a case. That so even in my 35 Whelen with quite a bit longer neck than a 358. You could long throat a 358 for it but then that may not work so good with shorter boolits.
The answer for me was to nose size about half the length to 351" That worked good but I like our MM boolit design better.

[MBTcustom]

I too got in on that group buy for the Bator heavy 35. Problem I have with it is the parallel sides are so long it needs to be seated very deep into a case. That so even in my 35 Whelen with quite a bit longer neck than a 358. You could long throat a 358 for it but then that may not work so good with shorter boolits.
The answer for me was to nose size about half the length to 351" That worked good but I like our MM boolit design better.

Exactly what I was thinking of doing and the reason I wanted to in the first place. Thanks for affirming that its not a totally stupid idea.
That boolit is so long, that you have to be using a pretty fast powder just to make room for the boolit in the case!

[Bullshop]

I already had a .351" die as well as a .350" as that is what I was sizing to when I was going through my 348 Win phase.
All I had to do was make a bushing to act as a stop for the ram to get uniform sizing depth.
Worked good and like I said if the custom MM didnt work out so good I would use the Bator so sized.

[jlchucker]

I have to agree. Very well said, especially that last sentence.

Well said is right! There's an ethical difference between hunting and waging war against animals.

[Blammer]

not a lot of cast boolit choices for the 338, and thus probably why no or few suggestions.

for the 35's there are a LOT of choices.

Here's a few
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits/DSCN7523.jpg

[swheeler]

35 whelen would be my choice get a 22" barrel, or the muzzle blast will make it not fun.

I have a Marlin XL-7 I rebarreled to 35 whelen with a 24" tube. The muzzleblast is stupendeous with full throttle loads.

I'm currently shooting RCBS 35-200 boolits that drop at 210gr at 2475fps. This is pretty much jword velocities, so knowing the drop will get me to 400yds easy.

In my expoerience this is bassakwards, shorter barrel more muzzle blast.??