Pointed vs. blunted bullets

[fatelvis]

I'm sure this has been covered before, but I can't find an answer after a short search. Are "blunted" bullets, or bullets with flattened tips generally better as a cast boolit design, verses a pointed nose boolit? If so, why? Any input would be appreciated.

[cbrick]

Flat point or spitzer isn't better or worse because it's a cast boolit, just like with J-words it all depends on what the intended purpose is.

Rick

[fatelvis]

Because I cast primarily for long range target, I am inclined to want a spitzer design (Ly 311365). But if I am immediately handicapping myself by choosing that design, I would like to know! Lol

[doubledown]

I cast .44 caliber and up, so all of my rifles shoot wide flat nose boolits. It is my experience that a flat nose cast boolit is extremely effective when hunting. All shots are under 150 yards It's all I cast.

[cbrick]

Because I cast primarily for long range target, I am inclined to want a spitzer design (Ly 311365). But if I am immediately handicapping myself by choosing that design, I would like to know! Lol

Handicap? It depends entirely on what you want the boolit to do when it arrives at the target.

Rick

[kir_kenix]

Because I cast primarily for long range target, I am inclined to want a spitzer design (Ly 311365). But if I am immediately handicapping myself by choosing that design, I would like to know! Lol

I think you would be suprised how well flat point or round nose boolits shoot at long range. For starters, we generally fire our projectiles at a lower initial velocity than j-word boolits, they are generally much heavier than their j-word counterparts, and they usually don't have a BC friendly boat-tail (negating most of the advantages of 'pointy' jacketed projectiles). These 3 factors erase alot of the percieved advantages in BC over BT jacketed bullets. Even in .30 caliber boolits, you'll find that you are more than capable of shooting out to 600 (or 1k if you have the capacity to launch one of the REALLY heavy .30's).

If you let us know what your goals are we could probably give you some pointers/suggestions on long range shooting. Remember, it's not how fast they get there, it's how many find there way into the 10 ring. A few more inches in drop or a couple more MOA of windage can usually be overcome with 10 to 20 MOA bases and gernerous elevation adjustments found in most modern optics.

Somewhere here on CB there is a BC listing for most common boolits within a defined range of alloy/weight if you want to crunch the numbers yourself.

[fatelvis]

I just want to punch holes in paper, or hit steel accurately at long range. (200-600 yds). I'm looking for the highest BC I can get. I guess I was wondering if the long pointed nose effected accuracy negatively somehow, in a cast boolit. I never had a spitzer mould, and it seems most people I'm seeing are using 311284, 311299,311291, etc. Not as many seem to be using the 311365, 311329,311397,311414, etc.

[kir_kenix]

I'm too slow of a typer and I see there have been several posts since I started my response. How long of range are you talking? Round or flat point boolits put nice holes in paper as long as they are still balistically stable when they hit the paper...

I don't think there are any accuracy advantages to spire points, but I've never done or seen an in-depth analasis with cast boolits.

[fatelvis]

I'm too slow of a typer
Lol, how about it! My kids were faster than me when they were 8!


Somewhere here on CB there is a BC listing for most common boolits within a defined range of alloy/weight if you want to crunch the numbers yourself.
Does anyone know where this table is? I tried searching to no avail.

[x101airborne]

My humble opinion, is if you are wanting the most accuracy of any cartrige a long pointed boolit with an unsupported nose is harder to work with. A short, more rounded nose with a supported shank area (in front of the crimp ring behind the nose) is easier to work with for accuracy. Like the difference in the lyman bore rider round nose design and the lyman spitzer design duplicating the profile of the FMJ loads. Not that you CANT get good accuracy with the spitzer style, it just seems easier to me to get the round nose and stubby nose boolits to shoot without much work.

[kir_kenix]

My humble opinion, is if you are wanting the most accuracy of any cartrige a long pointed boolit with an unsupported nose is harder to work with. A short, more rounded nose with a supported shank area (in front of the crimp ring behind the nose) is easier to work with for accuracy. Like the difference in the lyman bore rider round nose design and the lyman spitzer design duplicating the profile of the FMJ loads. Not that you CANT get good accuracy with the spitzer style, it just seems easier to me to get the round nose and stubby nose boolits to shoot without much work.

Good advise given here. Do you have a chamber cast so you know how long/tapered/abrupt your throat is in your rifle?

[fatelvis]

I just cast my first chamber a couple days ago. Time to get busy!

[Larry Gibson]

For a given weight of cast bullet the spitzer/pointed bullet will generally have quite a bit less bearing surface and a lot more totally unsupported nose hanging out. At higher accelleration rates both reasons cause imbalances to occure in the bullet and or the axis of flight not coinciding with the line of flight. The higher the accelleration/velocity the higher the RPM and the greater the adverse affect on accuracy. This is why the older spitzer shaped cast bullets for the 7mm, 30 cal and 8mm do not shoot that accurately above 1700 fps +/-. Newer, heavier spitzer designs with much longer bearing surfaces give much better accuracy at higher accelleration/velocity.

Larry Gibson

[fatelvis]

Ok, now this is starting to make sense now! So using a heavy-for-caliber boolit that has a long bearing surface looks like my best bet? Lym31101, 02,03, 311467?

[Bullshop]

Just a tidbit to add to the mix. In the book " Yours Truly " which was a collection of articals by Harvy Donaldson Harvy mentioned more than once that he felt that a round nose bullet was on average more accurate than a spitzer. He was including bullets in his assesment as well as boolits.

[sundog]

fatelvis, what you are doing is exactly what led me to using a 314299 sized .312 in the '06 - nose support and bearing surface.

I would think that with a boolit harder than ACWW and a little oomph behind it, long distance (600 yds +) should be easily attainable.

If you have not looked at this thread (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?168484-Hybrid-06-303-Lee-Neck-Sizer) about case prep, you might want to.

[rays308]

I'm sure this has been covered before, but I can't find an answer after a short search. Are "blunted" bullets, or bullets with flattened tips generally better as a cast boolit design, verses a pointed nose boolit? If so, why? Any input would be appreciated.

Spire point boolits can easily deform at the pointed end. search on the word slump and you should find many threads on the subject.
Its the long unsupported point. If its not centered in the bore it will bend or slump.

I shoot the 311365, 314365 and 311332 alot out of my savage 10. In my experience the best way to overcome slump is hard cast( at least WDWW), slow ball powder and the most important part, seat the boolit so it snugs into the rifling about .0010 or so for alignment into the barrel.

The 311247 Blackout and the 311299 do well at longer ranges also. I think its as much do to self centering on the bore ride nose as anything else.

It takes some work to get 311365s to shoot accuratly at higher velocities but, its cheap, fun and a real good learning curve.

I tried paper patching 311365 some. I couldnt get them centered in the bore. Found I really didnt need the few extra fps anyway.

I would advise you to start with a light loads to work on the best boolit fit into the bore(best seating depth for best accuracy)
Then start pushing the velocity to get the speed.

I also found that when working up the speed, groups can open at a certain powder charge then close again with a little more.

Hope this helps.

[fatelvis]

Thank you! These will be used in a Garand and a bolt 30-06.

What is ACWW?

[fatelvis]

If you have not looked at this thread about case prep, you might want to.
Ahhh, very good idea! Redding's FL bushing die takes all the "customizing " out of the equation!

Thank you Rays, I did hear about slump in the past!

[cbrick]

What is ACWW?

Air Cooled Wheel Weight.

Rick

[rays308]

ACWW = Air Cooled wheal weights.
WDWW = Water Dropped Wheel Weights.

[fatelvis]

TYGIAI = Thank you guys, I appreciate it! Lol

[fatelvis]

One question: Will the larger neck with fatter bullet fit in the '06's chamber? Hmm, time to try it!

[popper]

Send your chamber cast to Accurate or other custom maker and tell them what you want. You should also think about the lube groove # and style. Personally I'd go with small meplat vs the RN.

[dverna]

Timely thread.

I am on the 311365 GB and it is a long pointy sucker - nearly 200 gr. Fatevlis, I have the same objective as you. I want to shoot "cheap" bullets for practice and save the 175 MK's for 'serious work'. I am not interested in hunting with it.

I do not understand "slump". Does a thin copper jacket "solve" slump? Why? Will a Linotype bullet slump too. If I have to, I will cast it in straight Linotype as I have a good supply and it will still be cheaper than jacketed bullets.

Don

[fatelvis]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?109707-Noe-311365-sp&highlight=311365
#20 of this thread makes me want to try a spitzer. 4-5 MOA @ 500 yds difference from the 311299?! Wow! Just when I was gearing up for the long, blunt nosed bullet! Guess I gotta see for myself, and buy both.

[Harter66]

Based on my experience recently w/a self cast/created mould and design for a full spire pointed boolit cast to about bhn 12 plain based 30 Cal 200gr , the slump, aka nose and ogive collapsing happens right around 1900 fps w/4350 in a 1-9 twist 06'. For pure target work lino will be fine and can be driven somewhat faster. I also shot the same boolit in a 7. 6 2 x 3 9 to 1800 fps w/o any trouble.

My 200/308 boolit :
1.21 long
.6 from base to front band
.2 bore ride
.4 nose w/6" radius ogive
.09 meplat
It drops at 316 which works for both rifles I used it in as their throats are long and wide.
Paper patched I size them to 301 which then removes all of the bore riding section mostly filling the grooves too. I can get them to 2200 but then the WDWW is to hard for game. It sports a calculated BC of 368 and 4something. Chrony and known drop to 250 yds do confirm those numbers.

[MtGun44]

The one spitzer I have tried (311413) works well at moderate velocities. I have been told that many
have failed when trying to push it harder. I presume this is inability to withstand the higher pressures
when loading to higher velocities.

I am still learning about rifle boolits, but so far at moderate velocities I have had some notable successes.

Bill

[Bjornb]

I've been reading Joe Brennan's "Cast Bullets For Beginners And Experts"; here is a link: http://www.lasc.us/indexBrennan.htm
(I bought his CD for $5 and printed out all 600 pages). A lot of the regulars on this forum contributed to this incredible collection of documentation regarding shooting cast boolits. My point regarding your case: Brennan goes very deep into casting for 30 caliber rifles, with references to just about every possible mould. Well worth the read.

[jhalcott]

I had more (easier) success with a .308 rifle than with the Garand.My rem 700 didn't like many of the molds I had. Alloy did not make a lot of difference. I tried BHN's from about 12 to 28. The .308 was more forgiving on all counts. I had a 185 grain pointy bullet mold that seemed to be made for that .308! Cast from used linotype (18 bhn) , it did all I could want.

[HARRYMPOPE]

Hard relatively pointed bullets (30 caliber 311332-311299-311365 Ideal) with enough nose that rides the bore shoot very well to about 2000 fps in my 308 and 30BR rifles.The RN and blunt bullets get beat up by the wind in the 200 yard matches for me though to 100 they are often very good.

[HARRYMPOPE]

Harter66 how did you determine nose slump? Were you able to recover them in snow or oiled sawdust?

George

[Harter66]

I had worked up loads to group failure w/Red dot,Unique and 4350 plain based and naked. In Evey case the groups opened then tumbled . Some of the opened groups showed wadcutter holes while some were egg shaped. I was able w/4350 to push faster by simply going to a harder alloy. In this case for the 06' 75/25 WW/1-20 vs 50/50. The terminal performance wasn't what I wanted/needed from that boolit that hard. I have to meet a minimum 100yd energy level here for big game. Slumping and/or nose drift/deformation are the most likely answer to what occurred on the target.

[HARRYMPOPE]

My buddy has killed about 20 deer with a 180g-200g 30 caliber going 1800 out of stright WW.No shot was over 125 yards.The few 311284's that were recovered showed nice expansion.

I'd like to see an (undamaged by impact) recovered bullet to see how much a nose slumps at a given velocity and alloy.

[waksupi]

My buddy has killed about 20 deer with a 180g-200g 30 caliber going 1800 out of stright WW.No shot was over 125 yards.The few 311284's that were recovered showed nice expansion.

I'd like to see an (undamaged by impact) recovered bullet to see how much a nose slumps at a given velocity and alloy.

Try shooting into some snow piles this winter, and recover next spring. I get perfect samples back like you are talking about.

[madsenshooter]

Because I cast primarily for long range target, I am inclined to want a spitzer design (Ly 311365). But if I am immediately handicapping myself by choosing that design, I would like to know! Lol

Oh, I don't think you'd be handicapping yourself with 311365, my Krag rifles like them! I think that with just a little work the load could outdo the expensive match J-words, certainly so if the shooting is done at 200yds like NRA Vintage Rifle matches.

[Harter66]

I offer the Lyman 47th edition in the front section they discuss things found in the high speed shadow capture photos. More specifically a reference to a 180 gr pointed soft point that was captured in flight altered by setback and or slump to a round nose. The solution for them was a tougher jacket. Our solution is a shorter nose or harder alloy. I recall 303 guy posting some pictures of slumped Boolits that were clearly not "square" at the muzzle,being that only part of the nose was rifle grooved. Slump is the best and most viable explanation I have for a harder alloy shooting tighter groups at load levels that produced oval holes w/softer alloys.

A snow bank here happens about as often as a Lotus stays out overnight in Cadillac MI.

[303Guy]

Here is evidence of bump up or slumping of the boolit nose.

The core
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/SMOKELESSBUMPUP003.jpg

Patched
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/SMOKELESSBUMPUP007.jpg

Bumped up nose
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/Riflingskidnoseslump002.jpg

See the rifling and groove mark on the bumped up nose?
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/Riflingskidnoseslump008.jpg

There is nose damage from impact but what we should be looking at is the paper patch impression on the nose shank which can only happen inside the bore. There is no way I could compare a spire point with a round or flat nose because of impact damage.