non-gc 405gr loads for bfr 45-70

[harryman]

new to site. have new bfr 45-70 with 10" smoke pole looking for some good loads for hogs and deer. Have some 405gr ers for mbc,I have some imr 4198 rl7 3031 plus a few more ,just wondering if anyone else is loading for one of these .

[Whiterabbit]

I load a 425 grain bullet in 460 with IMR 4198 and its a GREAT powder, I'd try that first were it me.

[harryman]

I have loaded a few with mbc 405gr and38.5gr imr 4198 and afew with 36gr 4198 havent had time to shoot them yet .trying not to have to use gc but still have enough power for good hog loads.I have also ordered a bfr 460 looking forward to getting my hands around it.

[44man]

4198 worked super with jacketed but I had excursions to 1800 fps with cast and stuck brass. I suggest staying away from it.
3031 did not all burn, velocities were low with a lot of powder left in the brass and barrel. RL 7 is too slow.
I use nothing but SR 4759 in mine but do not have a load for a 405 gr. The 420 gr uses 28.5 gr, the 378 gr uses 30 gr.
Listen up, use a LP mag primer with 4759 and do NOT under load or you can get a failure. Info is hard to find.
Varget might work even though slow, it is a funny powder with more applications then Hodgdon even knows about.
I have never found a more accurate revolver and it is common to shoot 1" targets off the rail at 100 yards. Just watch the powder choices.

[harryman]

thanks for the info 44man what kind of powder load{grains} was you using to get stuck brass?
I understand you about accurate I clover leafed 3 rounds at 100yds with off the shelf rem 405gr shooting from bench.
what kind of recoil with sr 4759, and 4198? rem 405s pussycats dont mind a little bite from recoil.
I need to buy more load manuals have hornadys ,lyman 49,and lyman pistol, but data is for t/c with 16" smoke poles.

[Whiterabbit]

I found 4759 was OK. Slight edge for me to imr 4198. But just slight. In truth, I'd likely be happy with either. For me, 4198 is more versatile so I use it. But I tried SR4759 at 44man's recommendation and found it to be a fine powder for my application.

my loads are just over 75% your loads, but my case is about 75% your case. Since you said BFR 460, that's exactly what I shoot. I suggest trying 30 grains of H4198 with a slighty over 400 grain bullet. In my gun, works great. slightly better groups at 100 yards than with 28 grains of powder. WAY WAY below max pressure assuming "felt recoil" is an indicator.

It's a pussycat. maybe 1300 fps. I still need to chrono this load. But the recoil is quite mild when compared to a 290 grain solid (not AP) going 2000 fps. Even the gun report is mild by comparison. It's just plain civilized to shoot at the range.

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Edit: might take my experience with a grain of salt if you can shoot clovers off a bench. I'm no pistolero, but that's WAY out of my league. I'd be happy with 2" at 100y rested on a good day.

[44man]

thanks for the info 44man what kind of powder load{grains} was you using to get stuck brass?
I understand you about accurate I clover leafed 3 rounds at 100yds with off the shelf rem 405gr shooting from bench.
what kind of recoil with sr 4759, and 4198? rem 405s pussycats dont mind a little bite from recoil.
I need to buy more load manuals have hornadys ,lyman 49,and lyman pistol, but data is for t/c with 16" smoke poles.
I never wrote it down but it was a Marlin load. I had some very tiny groups with 4198 using the Hornady 300 gr but my chronograph was all over the place with cast.
My favorite boolit is from my home made mold and is 317 gr with 31 gr of 4759 for 1632.2 fps. I use Dacron filler and a LP mag primer. Recoil is very pleasant, less then a .44 mag.
I shoot eight different boolits plus the 300 Hornady from mine, all with 4759 and it shoots all great. The heaviest is 420 gr so far and I need to work with a 500 gr I have. I have 45-70 molds to 560 gr but too heavy is not needed in the gun.
There is so little out there for a 45-70 revolver with a short barrel it took me a month before I actually shot some loads. I tried every powder to find many did not burn or spiked to stick brass. My gun is 10" and I can't imagine working loads for anything shorter.
I tried all the fast powders like 4227 and accuracy would be better throwing the gun.
4759 is bulky and takes up some room in the brass but is fast enough to burn in the short barrel. I tried with and without filler but Dacron had a slight edge. You can do fine without it. I tested primers and all had different results with the LP mag (Fed 155) being the best.
I tried a reduced load of 4759 (-1/2 gr) with a 420 gr and stuck a boolit in the bore. I had to increase the load. I have no idea what a max load of 4759 would be so I am very careful.
The truth is I no longer shoot the gun much any more, it is so boringly accurate with my attention moving to the .475 and JRH.
One thing I do with all of my revolvers is a trigger job and I install a Wolff over power variable hammer spring, 26#. My 45-70 has a 19 ounce trigger. All of my Ruger's and BFR's have the 26# spring, if you shoot rifle primers go to the 28# but there is no need unless you get a .450 Marlin cylinder.

[harryman]

disappointed with outcome took loads to indoor range today, none of the load were even close to grouping at 25yds they were on the target but just all over the place. the loads were mbc 405gn .458 over 48gn 8208xrb 38.5gn imr 4198 and 36.0gn imr 4198 none of the loads would group. just wondering if I should try going up to .459 or .460 on the boolit size? a 10" target was being used.

[monge]

I had good results with lees 340gr sized to 459-460 tumble lube or carnuba red 27gr 2400 dacron filler ,mild recoil good accuracy to150yards never chrono them but they must be around 1600.

[44man]

disappointed with outcome took loads to indoor range today, none of the load were even close to grouping at 25yds they were on the target but just all over the place. the loads were mbc 405gn .458 over 48gn 8208xrb 38.5gn imr 4198 and 36.0gn imr 4198 none of the loads would group. just wondering if I should try going up to .459 or .460 on the boolit size? a 10" target was being used.
Size .459".
Your problem could be the mold that will not drop a boolit large enough, it is common to get .457" with a .45-70 mold. I make my own molds to match.
Then you keep trying 4198 and it just is not the right powder for cast. It even did poor in a rifle. It worked fine with jacketed. 3031 was great in the rifles but does not burn in the revolver, it was accurate but very, very slow. I would dump powder out of fired cases.
The case is so large for a short revolver you can pull your hair making it work.
I know all about large cases in short barrels and knew I was wrong buying the 45-70 BFR but the thing has out shot every rifle to 500 meters. The twist is exactly right. It was work but worth every second. I can hit tin cans at 200 yards and I would never part with the gun for any amount.

[Whiterabbit]

I'll suggest the opposite to 44man, worth testing. That is going to a 500 grain. Something ludicrous that "shouldnt work", like that pointy lee bullet. The one that shouldn't stabilize. Price of admission would be low, anyways. Sized so it barely fits the cylinder throat. Shot with either 4759 to 4198, 1000-1200 fps. Plunk the bullet right down on the powder, 100% fill density, no compression.

[44man]

I'll suggest the opposite to 44man, worth testing. That is going to a 500 grain. Something ludicrous that "shouldnt work", like that pointy lee bullet. The one that shouldn't stabilize. Price of admission would be low, anyways. Sized so it barely fits the cylinder throat. Shot with either 4759 to 4198, 1000-1200 fps. Plunk the bullet right down on the powder, 100% fill density, no compression.
The boolit will work but I just never tried the 500 gr. Twist should stabilize it.
Just never found a need yet since the gun is so accurate. I will test the heavy ones at some point.
I have the wonderful Rapine 500 gr Gov't boolit that is .460".
It is so sad that Ray retired. He is a friend and sold me mold handles for $14. A great man to just talk to. He sure could bend your ear.

[harryman]

44man what are min loads with 4759 I have another 200 of the 405gn boolits to try getting this thing some what accurate with these things. if I can't I'll go back to the j word and buy a 45-70 barrel for my rossi wizard and shoot the cast in it.


I haven't got into casting my own yet but would like to in the future any suggestion on getting started?

[Whiterabbit]

44man, The only PB bullet that really works in my gun (I havent tried 425 grain hardcast PB yet, only <400 grain) is a 500 grain postell-like bullet. Looks like it should come right out of BPCR rifles. Beautiful bullet may worth moving to if seating gas checks ever gets old.


I haven't got into casting my own yet but would like to in the future any suggestion on getting started?

easy and cheap is a cheap hand-me-down bottom pour furnace and a Lee 1-cav mold of any type (I like them MUCH BETTER than the lee 2-cavs). Add some lead from any source, just a few pounds is enough to cycle the pot and just try things out. After that, you've (I, when I started) knew exactly what questions to ask and what info to look for.

Some call that running with scissors, but I find it accelerates the Q&A portion of learning.

[44man]

Harryman, I have to guess here. I would try 29 gr of 4759 to start. I use 28.5 with a 420 gr and 30 with a 360 gr. My 378 gr boolit likes 30 gr.

[44man]

44man, The only PB bullet that really works in my gun (I havent tried 425 grain hardcast PB yet, only <400 grain) is a 500 grain postell-like bullet. Looks like it should come right out of BPCR rifles. Beautiful bullet may worth moving to if seating gas checks ever gets old.
My 378 gr is PB and shoots as good as a GC. I don't think a GC is needed at all but I did make some molds for them. A 50-50 boolit does need them but a heavier boolit shot slower should not.