Yes You Can – Shoot a Core Out of a Bullet Jacket

[MUSTANG]

My Apologies to our Illustrious Leader, Uncle “O” for my title selection, but remember "Yes We Can".

For my last shooting session before Thanksgiving, I took to the field with an M1a and my Savage Axis Bolt gun, intending to test WC860 based loads in 7.62/.308with cast RCBS Boolits, as well as 5.56/.223 with .223 Swaged bullets using 22LR Jackets I had made. During that shooting session, I was unable to chamber the 5.56/.223 rounds in the Savage Axis. I made an assumption that for some reason these loads were slightly large and would not fit the tighter Savage Chamber; but they did chamber in the AR-15 on my next trip out to the range last week.


I took this condition to validate my assumption that for some reasons I had loaded some out of tolerance 5.56/.223 rounds, despite testing all loaded rounds through a Lyman Case Length Headspace Gage before heading to the range. Speculation again, perhaps somehow I had the bullets seated out to far, and they were hitting the lands and groves on a tight chamber keeping the bolt from closing. Should have rejected that speculation since I use a commercial round for adjusting the Bullet seating die to touch the case mouth, then adjust the bullet seating stem down to touch the bullet nose. After that, I load a round with my Swaged 5.56/.223 bullets and measure OAL with calibers, then test in the Lyman Case Length Headspace Gage. Only then do I proceed with reloading.


Well this morning I had some time, so I got the Savage Axis out. I had loaded some 5.56/.223 rounds last Sunday evening and I tried unsuccessfully again to chamber and turn the bolt down. A new theory arose; having been shooting WC860 exclusively in the rifle over the last 3 months, perhaps either unburned powder or carbon build up was the culprit.


A bright light shinning into the chamber did not highlight either unburned powder or carbon on visual inspection. I went to the Rifle Cleaning gear drawer and retrieved a 5.56 chamber brush and twisted it in the chamber 15 – 20 turns, thinking “That should clear out any powder residue”. I ran a cleaning rod down the barrel, attached a patch jag, inserted an oversize patch to clean the chamber, and pulled the patch tightly in the chamber and turned it under pressure of pulling the rod towards the crown about 30 twists. On attempting to push the rod & patch back into the chamber for extraction of the oversize patch, I met considerable resistance, then it gave. The results appear in the picture.


The shed jacket had light rifle engraving in the forward 60%. The base end is flared, indicating that the base and core were pushed through the inside of the jacket. I believe the flare at the rear of the remaining portion of the core was created by a bullet nose when I attempted to Chamber future rounds. The problem was not experienced at the range, simply because fate deemed that the last round fired for the day was when the failure occurred. Looking at my shot records I can see exactly when the failure occurred, and they can be found at my Cast Boolits Posting : http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?160094-WC860-in-223-5-56-Yes-But/page2 (Posts #35 and #36). The bottom right target of Post #35 has 4 rounds, I have a note of an unexplained flyer about 5 inches high and to the right of the Target Photo. In post #36 there is a table of rounds fired with various powder charges, and velocities achieved. After the fact, analyzing the recorded data it is quite apparent that the aberrant velocity of 2456 was not a problem with the Chronograph, rather it was the core which was lighter than the previous bullets by 10.5 grains and traveling at a higher velocity due to less contact with the lands and grooves (less friction). What I find amazing is that the core hit the target as close as it did to the main group.

I am speculating that the base of the .22LR case used to create the jacket was stretched/cut in manner that dramatically weakened the jacket allowing the base and core to separate causing the failure.


Mustang


PS

I examined the jacket under a bright White Light and you can distinctly see the rifle engraving on the INSIDE of the jacket from the nose portion back about 50% of the length.

[Lizard333]

Wow. Thats impressive. I have no clue how that could have happened. I would have NEVER thought you could do such a thing. This is defiantly a first. I figured it could never be done. Kinda like the gas check on a cast boolit. The force from the powder charge has to push everything, including the gas check. I guess the picture tells the story.

[BT Sniper]

Glad you are OK.

Just to keep every one from getting scared and throwing out their 22 cal swage dies be sure to mention a bit more details.

What brand dies where you useing?

What was your exact 22 cal bullet diameters?

What weight was the bullet?

What brand 22lr brass was it that failed?

What diameter is the derimed case after it is derimed?

What diameter is the case after the core is seated and it exits the core seat die?

Did these bullets have the large airsoft BB tips like you have posted pics of before? Or was it a traditional bullet with nose formed tight? If tradtional how small was the meplat?

What was your exact load? Powder with a kicker? Primmer? brass length, COL, OAL, etc. I have only heard of kickers being used in the MZ loading world. What dies it do when loaded like that in a 223rem?

How sharp was the mouth of the brass you loaded your bullets into? Did you camfer (debur) it? recently trim it? was the neck tension excessivly tight, as in a possible tight neck brass with a slightly oversized bullet?

What does the base of your bullets look like? is there a radius? boat tail? completely flat?

One area of concern you might want to look into... using a loaded comercial round to set up your bullet seating die will not produce the same results when loading your swaged bullets unless you swaged bullets has teh exact bullet shape (ogive and meplate size) as the commercial round. For example if we use a spitzer bullet to set teh bullet seating stem then attempt to load and fire round nose bullets the start of the barring surface of teh round nose will be A LOT colser to the lands then the spitzer even though both could have same OAL.


If I had to make a guess the potential cause in no paticular order....

1. your bullet might be a bit over sized
2. the derim process could have weekened the jacket at the base
3. if the bullet had the large airsoft BB for a tip like others you pictured there was no curve to the jacket to hold the BB in place. It might then be the same as poping the cork from a bottle, nothing to really hold the lead core in place.
4. manufacturing flaw in the dies or the use there of
5. bullet was seated into the lands
6. base of bullet is too flat from using to much pressure while forming bullets or again flaw in design of dies.
7. while seating an extreemly flat based bullet possible sharp edges of the case mouth my have actually cut at the jacket a bit.

Just a guess on my part. I certainly don't want people to get scared off from making and shooting their own swaged bullets. Obviously it would be bad for my business and bad for the shooting/swaging hobby.

I would assume that as long as we continue to use safe reloading practices of bullets that are not too radically different from their commercial counterpart formed in trusted quality swage dies we will have the best chance at limiting any potential dangers.

Thanks for bringing this toour attention. We are all glad you are Ok. Be sure to add all the details to the questions posted above so others will be informed.



Notice the slightly rounded base to the bullet and tightly closed tip with jacket all the way to top of bullet and confirmed diameter of .2245 or less. I think it the chances are pretty slim to sepperate this jacket and core.

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1070053.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1060836.jpg

BT

[BT Sniper]

Fogive me, that's a lot of info to try and sort threw as I was not keeping up with your other thread.

Seems I found a few answers but you should really elaborate as much info as possible when you can.

here is what I think I found so far in going threw your posts

Corbin dies?
80 grain bullets?
22lr brass for jackets?

Got any pics of the "before" bullet? at 80 grains does the jacket even start the curve of the ogive of the bullet? Has to be a big lead tip correct? where you using a Corbin lead tip forming die?

How did you seat such a large core? I mean does Corbin offer a seating base punch that is .222ish in diameter? Or di you use the one that is ment to seat teh core into the jacket which is about .210ish in diameter? Or turn the bullet around and seat the large core by pushing on teh bottom of the jacket? was the core swaged first in a bleed die?

BT

[BT Sniper]

Can we get an upclose fine detail pic of what is left of the bullet/jacket?

[Johnny_Cyclone]

Are we sure it's not the case neck of a previously fired .223? Maybe a case neck sperration where the neck sperated from the cartridge case body and lodged in the barrel. Slightly extruded by pressure and the buldge being the remaining neck radius.

just a thought.

[algunjunkie]

Lots of possibilities of what could have happened and we will probably never know for sure.

My thought is that the jacket was weaken from the derimming process. Allowing it to separate under sudden movement. Which is what it sounds like. I found several that had small tears in the jacket material after point forming. I still have them just because I can see a faint sliver of lead. Mostly from Remington brass, but that is what I have the most of.

The second thought is that a bit too much pressure while searing the core causing a weak spot.

Or shearing from loading the bullet into the case mouth.

We will more than likely never know what actually caused it, but it will weigh on our minds and cause folks to pay a lot more attention.

[fredj338]

Run them too slow w/ a large exposed lead tip, could happen. One reason to not try field HP of open base FMJ. Good thing it didn't sep a bit further down, that could have been real ugly.

[newcastter]

Reading from your previous post in swaging you seem to have had more difficulties than anyone that I know of trying to swage .223 from 22lr I would really like to know the "brand" of dies you have this may be the culprit, also OAL does not exactly apply to swaged .223 bullets as the metplat is a bit larger,you have to figure in the size of the bullet at its tip compared to where that size is on a normal hollow point or yjey wont chamber. BT those bullets look even better than the originals I remember seeing.

[MUSTANG]

Glad you are OK.

Just to keep every one from getting scared and throwing out their 22 cal swage dies be sure to mention a bit more details.

What brand dies where you useing?

Corbin Dies, Made in 1980’s. 6 Ogive. Dies are new, were never used until 2012 - this year.

What was your exact 22 cal bullet diameters?

.2235

What weight was the bullet?

80.1 Grains (Jackets ~10.5 Grains – Cores ~69.5 Grains) Cores and Jackets are grouped by weight to nearest 1/10th grain before swaging bullets.

What brand 22lr brass was it that failed?

F Headstamp was used in this series of Bullets.

What diameter is the derimed case after it is derimed?

Derimmed cases (measured 5 jackets each of multiple Headstamps – All were .2195.
(Note: above number .2195 has been edited, the previous original posting of .2235 was erroneous)

What diameter is the case after the core is seated and it exits the core seat die?

Jacket (Case) is .2235 after ejecting from Core Seating Die.

Did these bullets have the large airsoft BB tips like you have posted pics of before? Or was it a traditional bullet with nose formed tight? If tradtional how small was the meplat?

This was a traditional style Bullet, 80 Grains, Lead Tipped (See Picture). Not one of the Airsoft BB Experiments.

What was your exact load? Powder with a kicker? Primmer? brass length, COL, OAL, etc. I have only heard of kickers being used in the MZ loading world. What dies it do when loaded like that in a 223rem?

24 Grains WC860 (Lot 510154)
3 Grains Green Dot (Kicker – From 10lbs I purchased in late 1990’s)
CCI 400 Small Rifle Primer (Lot D11W – From a lot 40,000 I purchased in the 1980’s)
All brass trimmed to 1.760”
Cartridge OAL 2.265”
No pressure signs (difficult to extract brass, split necks, base deformation, or primer flattening has ever been observed with these load series


How sharp was the mouth of the brass you loaded your bullets into? Did you camfer (debur) it? recently trim it? was the neck tension excessivly tight, as in a possible tight neck brass with a slightly oversized bullet?

Brass was trimmed to length before loading, inspected, and sharp inside/outside edges trimmed with RCBS mouth Chamfer Tool.

What does the base of your bullets look like? is there a radius? boat tail? completely flat?

Flat Base with slight Rounded edge (see picture)

One area of concern you might want to look into... using a loaded comercial round to set up your bullet seating die will not produce the same results when loading your swaged bullets unless you swaged bullets has teh exact bullet shape (ogive and meplate size) as the commercial round. For example if we use a spitzer bullet to set teh bullet seating stem then attempt to load and fire round nose bullets the start of the barring surface of teh round nose will be A LOT colser to the lands then the spitzer even though both could have same OAL.


If I had to make a guess the potential cause in no paticular order....

1. your bullet might be a bit over sized
Do not believe that .2235 is a problem.
2. the derim process could have weekened the jacket at the base
Possible. Particularly if this one piece of 22LR brass had a weak area at the Rim Fold. ( 1 in a Million, 1 in 10M, 1 in 100M, 1 in 100,000 cases weak in this area? Who knows, over the last 50 years I have seen occasions 22LR cases where the Semi Auto or Bolt action extractor tears a rim on a 22LR. Are those cases weak brass area or sharp extractor. No damage noted on brass used on derimmed 22LR jackets – but it is not uncommon to see an “Image” where the fold was. Saw this in sample bullets posted by BTSniper.
3. if the bullet had the large airsoft BB for a tip like others you pictured there was no curve to the jacket to hold the BB in place. It might then be the same as poping the cork from a bottle, nothing to really hold the lead core in place.
N/A. Not a plastic tip.
4. manufacturing flaw in the dies or the use there of
Do not think this is the case.
5. bullet was seated into the lands
Do not think this is the case; after clearing the jacket from the chamber/Lands ad Grooves, same dimension ammunition (with the same 80Gr bullet) now easily chamber and bolt throw feel same as on empty chamber or sized empty brass case.
6. base of bullet is too flat from using to much pressure while forming bullets or again flaw in design of dies.
Possible, but not seen on other bullets I have not yet shot. See picture.
7. while seating an extreemly flat based bullet possible sharp edges of the case mouth my have actually cut at the jacket a bit.
Possible, but less likely given I use a RCBS chamfer tool after trimming.
Just a guess on my part. I certainly don't want people to get scared off from making and shooting their own swaged bullets. Obviously it would be bad for my business and bad for the shooting/swaging hobby.

I would assume that as long as we continue to use safe reloading practices of bullets that are not too radically different from their commercial counterpart formed in trusted quality swage dies we will have the best chance at limiting any potential dangers.

Thanks for bringing this toour attention. We are all glad you are Ok. Be sure to add all the details to the questions posted above so others will be informed.



Notice the slightly rounded base to the bullet and tightly closed tip with jacket all the way to top of bullet and confirmed diameter of .2245 or less. I think it the chances are pretty slim to sepperate this jacket and core.

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1070053.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1060836.jpg

BT



After clearing the jacket obstruction, reviewing shot records, cycling same dimension ammunition with same 80Grain Swaged Bullets, and considering variety of questions and conditions postulated - I believe that an incipient brass failure was present and weakened by the swaging steps. Probably a 1 in 100Million to 1 in 1Billion event given the lack of "Tribal Knowledge" that exists on this topic. Most concerns of shedding a core I have seen were more "Urban Legend" in that I have never been exposed to a first hand account. In my military career as well as my years of High Power shooting I have seen multiple instances of an intact round stuck in the chamber due to powder failure or absence.

Mustang

[MUSTANG]

Fogive me, that's a lot of info to try and sort threw as I was not keeping up with your other thread.

Seems I found a few answers but you should really elaborate as much info as possible when you can.

here is what I think I found so far in going threw your posts

Corbin dies?
80 grain bullets?
22lr brass for jackets?

Got any pics of the "before" bullet? at 80 grains does the jacket even start the curve of the ogive of the bullet? Has to be a big lead tip correct? where you using a Corbin lead tip forming die?

How did you seat such a large core? I mean does Corbin offer a seating base punch that is .222ish in diameter? Or di you use the one that is ment to seat teh core into the jacket which is about .210ish in diameter? Or turn the bullet around and seat the large core by pushing on teh bottom of the jacket? was the core swaged first in a bleed die?

BT


Raw cast Cores of ~ 72 Grains are swaged in Corbin Core Swage die (Bleed Die) to a diameter of .191". For this 80Grain bullet the core is swaged to a weight of ~ 70grains. The core is seated same as in other shorter/less weight bullets, this is at the edge of heaviest weight (length) core that can be swaged into the jacket. Did not use a Corbin Lead Nose forming die, simply used the 6S nose die.

Mustang

[newcastter]

In my opinion....that is alot of bearing surface on that bullet and very little ogive on the brass holding that core in place, did you look to see if there were any signs of higher pressure on the fired casing/primer? I have attempted to swage hevier bullets but stayed away from anything with that much bearing surface in fear of situations like this, I am still learning and only been swaging for a year so take that into consideration.....interested to hear others opions

[MUSTANG]

Not part of a .223 case. all brass is kept for inspection evaluation (in trays in order of shooting) of load performance. No brass separation, it is a bullet jacket from last round fired that date. Radius was probably caused when I attempted to chamber a round next shooting session.

Mustang

[MUSTANG]

No high pressure indications on brass or primers.

Mustang.

[BT Sniper]

Well then...... rather interesting. Thank you for posting all the data. I would be interested to hear what Corbin would have to say.

Fps? was around 2200 Wasn't it?

The Federal brand of 22lr brass is actually thicker in the base then any other brass case I have ever used. I would have actually thought that would have helped you out.

the main thing that would concern me with the numbers you gave us was .2235 by that I mean the derim die made you a jacket that was .2235, the core seat die gave you a jacket/seated core combo of .2235 and the final bullet was .2235. if this was the case the brass never had a chance to grip the core. It all comes down to that "Brass Spring Back" when we swage. As in always swage up that way the brass wants to return to it's previous diameter (if only slightly it is important) For example, lets say the derim die gave you a jacket of .219 then the core seat die is good at .2230-.2235, the brass wants to return (spring back) ever so slightly back to it's previous diameter but it can't because the lead core is seated in the case and as such the jacket grips tightly to the core. Then all you got to do is form teh point in the point form die. Everthing is tight and the jacket is gripping tight to the core.

One more thing to consider, we must ensure the inside of the jacket and the lead core is absoulutly free from any lube.

I can't imagine teh derim die is wore that much if it is a new set that hasn't been used much but I would bet that if you got a derim die that gave you a jacket a bit smaller all your problems and worries may just go away.

I would highly recomend you give Corbin a call and ask him what he is looking for in the diameter of a derimed 22lr jacket and if the .2235 diameter jackets and subsequent bullet of .2235 @ 80 grains you are getting could possibly present a problem..... like not having enough grip on the core and possibly leading to a stuck jacket in the barrel?

One last note. Corbin's dies operate on a open type pressure system (last time I checked anyway). As I understand it, this means the bullet if formed in the point form die and the ejection pin is usually far enough out of the way, or not even in the die that if you apply to much pressure any excess lead will simply flow into the ejection pin hole (bleeding off any excess pressure, a good way to save the die from harm). From the looks of it your lead tips apear to be a bit larger diameter at the meplat (tip) then what may be possible from the corbin die set. Meaning the bullet was probably stopped short before the lead tip was fully formed or full pressure was applied. Not really a problem if the jacket is already grabbing the core from the core seat step but. In your case I would guess that the jacket was not gripping the core tight enough because of the previous statments and your partial point form process did not apply enough pressure to the bullet jacket combo to swage the bullet to the full final bullet diamter potential that would have also increasing the grip of the jacket in the process.

Just for comparison sake, my dies operate on a closed system. Meaning we can apply a bit of pressure to the formed bullet but is also a bit risky if the operator is carless and applies to much pressure. A added benifit is that we can form lead tips without an extra lead tip forming die. Also each step of the process is a "bump up" in diamater to ensure a good grip on the core. As you can see the reason for doing so is important. I go from .219 derimed jacket size to .2230-.2235 seated core/jacket combo diameter to .2238-2245 final bullet diameter. A step up for each step of the way.

Lead tip 69 grain bullet from 22lr brass formed in my closed die system. As you can see I was able to apply enough pressure to form the lead tip in one step. This had to of helped to bump up the bullet to final diameter as well as ensure and maintain the tight grip of jacket to core.

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1060882.jpg



Call Corbin, Possibly look into a derim die that will give you a jacket around or smaller then .2230 and I would actually perfer about .002 under final bullet diameter.

Maybe there is some physics involved with the long barring surface and the slow FPS with regard to surface friction in the bore. Matter of fact I would bet on it. Go faster and the friction probably is less. Make a lighter bullet of 50-65 grains or a longer, "length approprate" jacket for the heavy bullet, use the standard powders for 3000 fps with the 50-55 grain bullets that happen to form perfectly from a 22lr case and I would bet you never have a problem again.

just my 2 cents, hope any of it might have helped or shed any light on the subject.

BT

[BT Sniper]

Looking again maybe the bullet was formed to nearly it's full potential????

The only guess I would venture to make after all your data was posted was that you may benifit from a smaller diameter derim die, longer jacket, lighter bullet with less barring surface or any combination of the three.

I don't think the brass was week in the base where the rim used to to be. Fedral is thick stuff. Simply cut one of your derimed cases in two the long way and see. Compare it to any of the other cases.

Hey... another thought came to mind...... what are you using for swage lube during the derim step?

Keep it safe. Good shooting and do Swage On! Carfully of course :)

BT

[runfiverun]

i seen a factory 38 special that shot the core out of the jaxket and left the jaxket in the case.
it never broke the crimp,just pushed the core out.

i'm guessing [having seen this personally] that the rim of the jaxket exited the bbl along with the core acting like a gas check.
i have seen the rims,and what would be the bottom of the bullet torn from the body of the case when they are being de-rimmed [the punch kicks out a little disc of copper]
and i have seen the cases just slightly cracked along the side of the rim after being fired in the 22 rifle.

[FatMcNasty]

I have a full corbin set as well. Ill take some quick measurements on mine tonight to give you a reference. Off the top of my head after core seat im sitting at really close to .223 and then after point forming am at .224 Ill get real numbers when i get home.

Also are you measuring with Calipers or Micrometer? There is a BIG difference in precision between the two.

[MIBULLETS]

My guess is that is has nothing to do with the dies used to form the 80 gr bullet. The 22 cases are so thin that the ogive helps support the core when it is fired. In this case, there is almost no ogive to make any difference. If the core slips out when the bullet start to engrave into the rifling, there is nothing left to support the base of the jacket, so it pops through. As said this might never happen again, but I would steer clear of making my bullets with that much lead making up the ogive of the finished bullet. If you want a longer bullet use 22 mag cases.

[newcastter]

I agree with MIBULLETS also if you want to make 80 gr bullets just use 17HMR or 22 Mag.

[FatMcNasty]

With the micrometer I get jacket after de-riming of .221
jacket/core at .2235 and after point form .224

So if your getting the dims you have I would call Corbin.

You are measuring diameters with a micrometer and not a caliper right?

[gunguychuck]

I think it is obvious what happened. The base of the jacket was almost punched through during derimming. We have all punched the base out of a jacket, but this is rare if you anneal them first. The core was loose in the jacket because your dies don't work on the swage up principal that makes the jacket tight to the core. With the weak base and the core being smaller than bore diameter, it would take very little pressure to shoot the base and the core out the barrel as both would be smaller than bore diameter.

[Lizard333]

I don't think so. I have a set of RCE dies which work the same way as Dave Corbin's (they are brothers and used to work with each other). These are top quality dies.

De-rim the 22lr brass.
Swage core to proper weight and size.
Seat the core
Point form.

For the record I have never even heard of punching through the base. Hasn't happened to me. Not saying you can't, just hasn't happened to me.

[newcastter]

I thought Corbin dies are a swage up principal?

[Lizard333]

Seating the core swages up the diameter to your final measurement. If his bullet were the correct diameter, he seated the core correctly.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[gunguychuck]

He did have loose cores if you look at the post where he said the jackets came out of the derimmer at .2235 they came out of the core seat die at .2235, they came out of the point forming die at .2235. this means a loose core.

[Lizard333]

My RCE die sends out bullets at .2335. That is a standard size. They were not loose. Do you have or have used a set of dies? I'm starting to wonder.

[Reload3006]

if his derim die makes a jacket at .2235 od and he core seats and is still at .2235 his core could be loose. My derim set makes a jacket at .219 and it expands to .2238 when I seat my cores. When i am finished point forming I am at .224 I would suspect a loose core as well. but perhaps not for the same reasons as others. I believe you are making a jacket that is too big to start off.

[gunguychuck]

what caliber do you shoot .2335 bullets in. I have been swaging bullets with Corbin dies for 36 years.I don't think .2335 is a standard size.

[gunguychuck]

The final size is would be right at .2235 but the bullet was never swaged up during the whole process so the core is loose. read all the posts.

[MIBULLETS]

You don't need a .001" of spring back to make good bullets. A couple of tenths (.0001"+) will be enough especially between the core seating and point forming steps. You really don't want to bump a bullet up much in a Corbin style point former. The de-riming measurement is surprising at .2235". I wonder if that was Corbin as well?

When seating a core that long you must use a punch that seals the bore of the die, not the normal punch that fits into a jacket. Some people use the punch for the point forming die if it easily fits into the core seating die. If you used the normal punch, the core seating would not be increasing the diameter much since the lead will leak by and not apply enough force to bump it up. I still think the mouth of the jacket not being a larger part of the ogive has a lot to do with this.

[gunguychuck]

My Corbin die makes a jacket at .219, core seat at .223 and point form at .224. If a jacket is .2235 and after core seat it is .2235 and point form it is .2235 the core is not tight in the jacket. Why is this so hard to understand.

[newcastter]

My Corbin die makes a jacket at .219, core seat at .223 and point form at .224. If a jacket is .2235 and after core seat it is .2235 and point form it is .2235 the core is not tight in the jacket. Why is this so hard to understand.

Combine all that with no brass on the ogive and say bye bye to the core!!

[gunguychuck]

Exactly, Newcastter.

[MIBULLETS]

My Corbin die makes a jacket at .219, core seat at .223 and point form at .224. If a jacket is .2235 and after core seat it is .2235 and point form it is .2235 the core is not tight in the jacket. Why is this so hard to understand.

It isn't. All I am saying is that you can't assume that measurements to .001" are good enough to understand the spring back issue. You may very well be 100% correct. Without seeing it myself, I don't know.

I am curious why the OP did not post those measurements himself, the only place I see them is in another post by someone else. Not saying they aren't from the OP though. I have never heard of a de-rim die producing jackets that big before except the guys using a Lee push-though die instead.

[MUSTANG]

Not using a Micrometer (Do not own one). Using a 20 year old Dillon Precision Dial Caliper for measurements (.0005 is coming from 1/2 way between .223 and .224 on dial). Like all of my measuring instruments it is in like new condition.

I'll look into a Caliper when the shooting budget allows.


Mustang

[alfloyd]

Mibullits:
"I am curious why the OP did not post those measurements himself, the only place I see them is in another post by someone else."

Look in post 10. Measurments are posted by Mustang.

Lafaun

[MUSTANG]

My Corbin die makes a jacket at .219, core seat at .223 and point form at .224. If a jacket is .2235 and after core seat it is .2235 and point form it is .2235 the core is not tight in the jacket. Why is this so hard to understand.



Apologies to all; but it appears in my response to BT's questions in post #10 I had a typo/cut and paste mistake:

What diameter is the derimed case after it is derimed?

[B]Derimmed cases (measured 5 jackets each of multiple Headstamps – All were .2235.


In fact, that number should read .2195. to validate, I have measured 50 Derimmed 22 LR Cases pulled at random from my stores of about 1500 jackets (Rem, F, E, U, Super-X, and C Headstamps) , and all measure .2195" Outside Diameter.

Theory of Jacket not being Swaged Up by during Core Seating Process seems to be unsupported by this correction.

Once again sorry for the error in posting (Due to multiple system crashes while writing Post #10 I had to resort to writing the answers in Word, then cutting and pasting back into the Thread). I will correct the information in post #10.

Mustang.

[MIBULLETS]

Now that makes sense. I was thinking that the .2235 de-rimed jacket didn't seem right. Thanks for catching the error, that makes a big difference.

[MIBULLETS]

Mibullits:
"I am curious why the OP did not post those measurements himself, the only place I see them is in another post by someone else."

Look in post 10. Measurments are posted by Mustang.

Lafaun

I see that now after closer inspection, thank you sir. It is confusing because the edits were made to BTs post, not in a normal post.

[Reload3006]

I guess poop does happen. I would say the lesson is if something doesn't seem right stop and check things out. Glad you didnt get hurt and a good lesson for the rest of us. While shooting the core out of one of our bullets is not likely it does happen and we need to be cognizant of that fact. But It could happen to any of using factory bullets too.
I have split the base off some bullets i have made by too much pressure when core seating but I knew it when it happened. still I would imagine that the lead was firmly against the jacket but i saw the split and put them in the scrap remelt pot.

[newcastter]

I just dont agree, I am telling you that the fact that there was so very little ogive on the brass has alot to do with it, I bet you make a thousand of those same rounds and you get duplicate results multiple times and use the same dies and swage fully encapsulated HP's and you will have 0

[xfoxofshogo]

i have hade this hapen 2 times bouth time was form the base of the bulit comeing off y i was swaging them.
i was thinking it be ok to shoot but it left the jacket in the barrle bouth times and i have sot some not even point form and this has not hapen to then so hase nuthing to do with the ogive most all of mine are 75 to 80g so brass is not ogive much as log as the base is not gone or crack it will be fine

[rbuck351]

Well, I had this happen with a factory jacketed bullet. It was an 86gr Rem bullet in a 256Win shot in a Thompson Contender. Not only that but I then fired two more behind that. Both showed high pressure so I quit until I could check things out. When pulling a patch out the jacket came with it. It's never happened again and I have no idea why it happened this time.

[bullet maker 57]

I make a lot of jackets from 22lr, using Corbin dies. I shoot a lot of bullets and never had a jacket seperate like being described. I use the Corbin hydraulic press to make my jackets. My jackets are.219 measured with caliper or micrometer. I agree with MIBULLETS, bullet construction seems to be the problem.

[Prospector Howard]

I'm really curious about the picture of the failed jacket that was pulled out of the barrel. It appears to be only about 2/3 the length of the original jacket next to it. What happened there?
After clearing the jacket obstruction, reviewing shot records, cycling same dimension ammunition with same 80Grain Swaged Bullets, and considering variety of questions and conditions postulated - I believe that an incipient brass failure was present and weakened by the swaging steps. Probably a 1 in 100Million to 1 in 1Billion event given the lack of "Tribal Knowledge" that exists on this topic. Most concerns of shedding a core I have seen were more "Urban Legend" in that I have never been exposed to a first hand account. In my military career as well as my years of High Power shooting I have seen multiple instances of an intact round stuck in the chamber due to powder failure or absence.

Mustang

[Prospector Howard]

Dang, the picture didn't come back up. It's on post #10

[Lizard333]

72877

I wonder the same thing. The jacket that was pulled doesn't even appear to been swaged. It looks like a 22LR piece of brass. It still has the rim on it.

[Prospector Howard]

In the first post he did mention that the reason for the flair at the rear was because he tried to chamber other rounds. It still is a curious thing though. Hopefully Mustang can weigh in on it.
72877

I wonder the same thing. The jacket that was pulled doesn't even appear to been swaged. It looks like a 22LR piece of brass. It still has the rim on it.

[customcutter]

It still looks like 15-20% of the case is missing? Interesting though, I don't think I'll be making any 80grainers.

CC

[Nickle]

I suspect a freak jacket failure. It certainly could be exacerbated by the shortness of the jacket in the ogive area.

And, I've never experienced this personally, but have certainly heard of it. With mass produced bullets at that. I suspect it's even less likely with hand made bullets, as quality control is generally much higher.

I would recommend buying a moderately decent micrometer that has a vernier for ten thousandths of an inch. That's .0001, not .001.

Here's a cheap one that should work. RCBS micrometer, 1 (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/882955/rcbs-vernier-micrometer-1)