Soft nosed cast rifle boolits

[armednfree]

In a previous thread I asked about casting handgun boolits with soft noses. Not needed I guess. But what about rifle boolits. With tha long nose on say a 180 grain 303 boolit it would seem more viable, especially if you could hollow point it. Even with a striking speed down to 1000 fps it should expand I'd think.

[btroj]

It depends. On a 30 cal bullet at 2200 fps I don't think it is needed. On a 45-70 400 grainer at 1400 fps it isn't needed.
If you are shooting a 180 gr 30 cal at 1600 fps it might not be a bad idea.

Like everything in shooting cast for hunting, it all depends. Too many variable to make a blanket statement based only upon caliber or bullet weight. Velocity and alloy change the way a bullet behaves on impact so they must be taken to account.

[waksupi]

Not necessary, and I would strongly suggest staying away from hollow points if you are shooting deer or larger game. Good examples are in Goodsteel's recent topic showing a deer he destroyed with too soft of an alloy, and the same can be expected of a hollow point. .44man posted another topic, showing the exit wound on a deer, demonstrating the proper cast boolit performance.

[Wolfer]

It depends. On a 30 cal bullet at 2200 fps I don't think it is needed. On a 45-70 400 grainer at 1400 fps it isn't needed.
If you are shooting a 180 gr 30 cal at 1600 fps it might not be a bad idea.

Like everything in shooting cast for hunting, it all depends. Too many variable to make a blanket statement based only upon caliber or bullet weight. Velocity and alloy change the way a bullet behaves on impact so they must be taken to account.

This is where I stand. This year I used a 30-06 and 21 grs of 2400 to push a Lyman 311041 with a small HP 1/4" deep to under 1800 fps. I've shot two deer and two coyotes so far and I consider performance to be superb. They remind me a lot of Nosler partitions without the bloodshot meat around the wound channel.
I choose the HP to ensure expansion at longer range. A few days ago I questioned this. I loaned my gun to my neighbor whose health is not the greatest. Every year he manages to kill a deer or two from his back deck. Quite often shooting beyond 200 yds. This year with some shoulder issues he was reluctant to fire the 06 with full power jacketed loads. So I gave him some of my cast loads with the warning these would probably work best under 100 yds.
Well he didn't see any under 100 so he shot one beyond 200. First shot it went down but got back up, second shot it stayed down. One shot was a pass through, second shot was at an angle with about 20" of penetration. Boolit lodged against the hide on far side. I didn't weigh it but it's mostly there, perfect mushroom all the way back to the crimp grove.
I don't know what the impact velocity was but it can't be very fast. You can literally slice across the thumb sized holes.

The fact that this boolit mushroomed below the HP is what makes me question whether their needed. However I'll continue to use them because I like the performance.
I personally think most of your bloodshot meat happens when you get into the 2000 fps area although I know there have been exceptions to this.
By the way my alloy is pretty soft. 1 WW- 2 PB

[1Shirt]

Yep, it depends on the situation, the caster, the alloy, the load, the ebb and flow of the tides, the phases of the moon, etc,etc.etc. What seems to be the cats a$$ for some seems to be the devil's brew for others. I do like HP's, but am more and more going for a more shallow HP.
1Shirt!

[44man]

I like how all of you think! [smilie=w:
Yes, it depends.
You will be amazed at damage caused by much slower boolits, velocity is not needed to blow a deer to total bloodshot.
Just speeding up any boolit is never the answer.

[shredder]

Agreed. I shot a deer this year with the 8mm KAR boolit which wieghs 237 gr cast from 50/50 WW/Pure. This boolit has a huge meplat or flat point. I load it up to 1800 with H4895 and it goes right through a deer with devestating internal performance. I know it is a small sample but hey, I got the desired result in spades. I will not diss on other types of projectiles or different compositions. I will just say, it worked very well for me and I will continue to use it.

[btroj]

I almost lost a great buck a few years back because I shot a hollow point from a too hard alloy too fast. Blew up, lost weight, and deflected off a shoulder blade. This was with a 45-70 and a 350 gr bullet. I now use a 420 at 1400, no hollow point, and I know it will go thru any deer I can find.

So many this need to be balanced for PROPER performance on game. Too fast is as bad as too slow. Balance the alloy, bullet design, caliber, and velocity and all is good. Go to an extreme in one of these and it can all fall apart.

[390ish]

I shot a deer at about 160 or so yards two years ago with a 200 grainer out of a 30-40 Krag (before I blew myself up with that rifle). I was shooting wheel weights that were oven hardened for 1.5 hours, then quenched. I softened the top 1/3 with a torch per internet instructions (seemed to be easier to do, fewer bullets slumping from the heat when previously tumble lubed) and shot them so they rolled out of the tube at about 1850 fps.

It gave me some of the best performance i have ever had out of a 30 caliber rifle. I will be doing it again with the 7.62x54r.

[44man]

I love those that say "balance". It is not easy. I might never get it right. Some of you show great experience. You see, you think, all is good if you adjust.
The very worst thing to do is to depend on one boolit to do it all.

[btroj]

One bullet can't do it all. Not even close. Heck, one alloy can't do it all. Big difference between a 30 cal 200 grainer at 2000 fps and a 44 cal 300 grainer at 1300 fps.

I find that a big, heavy bullet is just easy to get to work well. Doesn't need much velocity to do the job. Doesn't need to expand either so alloy is less of a concern.

I think it takes a fair amount of messing around with variables to learn what works. I vary alloys and speeds until I get a bullet that holds together on the berm. I find that makes it suitable for good penetration without losing weight. If I want expansion I spend even more time looking at alloy and heat treating. I like a softer alloy with enough mag shot added to give me a good heat treat hardness. I want a bullet that is tough enough to go fast and tough enough to hold together. This still needs to be matched to a velocity window. And range affects velocity so a bullet may be great at 25 yards and not so great at 200.

Finding that balance is the "art" of casting and hunting with cast. It takes time to learn.

[runfiverun]

i know 44 man has had to do the trials,and the shooting too.
i remember the issues he was having with his fast/hard set-up, took some talking there.

is the soft nose boolit the way to go?
probably with a 30 cal rifle or smaller and at a nominal velocity in the 1900 range.
providing the nose isn't softened over too big of an area.
and the alloy isn't one of high antimony,the softened alloy will only stay dead soft for a few days then harden to the origional alloy's hardness,just like a fresh cast boolit.

[HollowPoint]

I know that most of you already know this but, bullets with shallow hollow point cavities are referred to as, "Cup-Points." (semantics)

I like using these soft-nosed Cup Points in my thirty calibers. Shot through organic test mediums like downed Sahuaro cactus and unfortunate coyotes, they mushroom just like the jacketed bullets you can buy at the store. Out of my rifles they're generally traveling in the 1700-1800 fps range with a BHN of about 11-12 at the nose and anywhere from 18 to 24 BHN behind what would be considered the crimp-groove. (my bullets don't actually have a crimp-groove)

Even better for me is the fact that I now install synthetic bullet tips on those Cup-Pointed bullets to help mitigate any ballistic-coefficient that may be
lost by having a blunt hollow shaped nose.

None of us has to look to long or hard to find the pluses or minuses of any of the choices we make with regard to alloy or bullet shape. It's good to know that we all eventually find what we're looking for if we look long enough.

HollowPoint

[dutch41]

390ish wrote.

I shot a deer at about 160 or so yards two years ago with a 200 grainer out of a 30-40 Krag (before I blew myself up with that rifle). I was shooting wheel weights that were oven hardened for 1.5 hours, then quenched. I softened the top 1/3 with a torch per internet instructions (seemed to be easier to do, fewer bullets slumping from the heat when previously tumble lubed) and shot them so they rolled out of the tube at about 1850 fps.

390, would you happen to still have the link for doing this?
Thanks.

Scott

[Wolfer]

390ish wrote.

I shot a deer at about 160 or so yards two years ago with a 200 grainer out of a 30-40 Krag (before I blew myself up with that rifle). I was shooting wheel weights that were oven hardened for 1.5 hours, then quenched. I softened the top 1/3 with a torch per internet instructions (seemed to be easier to do, fewer bullets slumping from the heat when previously tumble lubed) and shot them so they rolled out of the tube at about 1850 fps.

390, would you happen to still have the link for doing this?
Thanks.

Scott

I've got an article saved by Paco Kelly. He casts them hot and frosty and water drops. Then stands them up on their bases and covers with water to about the front driving band. Sticks a propane torch to the nose until it changes color, if it slumps you heated too long.
Recently Larry Gibson posted somewhere about doing it in the oven. Not Sure where.
I tried it once but not sure I had enough water. When I tested the boolits they were about the same bhn all the way down the shank. On second thought that couldn't work unless you filed your flat then heat treated then detempered. As I type this I realize I filed my hard surface off.
I don't really need it at the current time. I like my system