Tumbling live ammo

[Jim]

Staff, if there's a better section for this topic, please move accordingly. I couldn't think of an appropriate section for it.

I recently saw a post suggesting tumbling live ammo that was a bit grungy. This is a subject that has been beaten to death. I apologize for digging it back up, but there's a lot of new members here since it was last discussed.

I've heard that it's a bad idea as it can cause the powder kernels to disintegrate to a fine particulate, thus raising pressures on ignition. I've also heard that the powder, being plastic in nature, will not break down.

I would never suggest "If you don't know, don't post", but I'd really like to hear from those that are in the know about this. Can it be done safely? If so, are there restrictions to how it can be done?

Court is in session.

[smokeywolf]

Although I don't think I'm comfortable doing it. But, I'd like to hear from those wiser than me (or is it "I"?).

That means everybody chime in.

smokeywolf

[gds]

I think on arfcom a guy tested that with some cartridges tumbled at varying lengths of time. But cannot find the thread. I just cannot see tumbling for a few hours to remove case lube having any effect whatsoever, which I have done many times, but YMMV

[StratsMan]

I have done it...

Never more than about 15 minutes to get caselube off the brass after a loading session... back in the days when I would perform all the steps on the 550B.... ie: start with dry brass, lube the case, and end up with loaded rounds with caselube still on them... I've heard the same stories/theories about degrading the powder, but I've also read articles saying that it doesn't happen... haven't tested by pulling down tumbled rounds, but those that I did tumble didn't perform any differently than any other round with the same load....

Gotta admit, the people who told me that the powder would turn to dust were the same people who told me that a round might go off in the tumbler if the pointy tips hit a primer just right... I don't think I'm gonna buy that one though....

[Roosters]

I think on arfcom a guy tested that with some cartridges tumbled at varying lengths of time. But cannot find the thread. I just cannot see tumbling for a few hours to remove case lube having any effect whatsoever, which I have done many times, but YMMV

This might be it. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/989047_Tumble_live_ammo_Tumbler_Oandapos__thruth_E XTREME_edition__200hour_torture_test__UPDATE__fire d_rounds_in_OP.html Shows before and after photos with magnification .

I do it to remove case lube, no ill effects yet.

[Jim]

Roosters, thank you for posting that! That kind of evidence carries far more weight than "Uncle Bill told me..."

[Roosters]

Uncle Bill is entitled to his opinion.. lol:popcorn:

All my J loads go through the tumbler for about 20 min. to clean off the case lube. I don’t think it hurts anything. I don’t tumble loaded cast don’t want to bugger up my Boolits.

You could probably get the same split opinion on is reloaded ammo safe.

[HATCH]

Jim, Its UNCLE CHUCK told me.... lol
I suggested it.
I have done it before on several occasions.
Personally I wouldn't tumble pointed ammo but pistol ammo I have done plenty.
I haven't done lead only jacketed bullets.

[snuffy]

Here's one from THR that I participated in. Yeah, I use the same monicker on several forums![smilie=s:[smilie=1:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=498890

This was with pistol ammo, 40 and 45acp, but I also did a test back in 2002 with 300 WSM loaded with Alliant 4831 SC. A starting load gave the powder lots of room to move around.

IIRC I stopped after 17 hours, couldn't see any change in the appearance of the powder granules. Those rounds were tested on target while running over my pact chrono. Also a baseline group that wasn't tumbled were also run.NO DIFFERENCE!In either group size OR velocity.

I do it routinely when running .223 through my dillon 650. They come out with case loob on them, wiping each one is tedious, worse than the trimming/case prep operation. 15 minutes is plenty in new, bare corn cob to remove the loob.

[ErikO]

I clean my cases first and will be tumbling after my Xmas pressie shows up. For now, using the downtime I have (lack of range funds) to hand clean the rounds I have. I saw the ARFCom thread and was glad that a quick tumble won't cause trouble when I start doing it.

Ultrasonic cleaning is probably a bad idea. ;)

[jcwit]

Here's another

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=639965&highlight=tumbling+loaded+ammo

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=498890

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

I've been doing it for years, only on handgun stuff though.
My homemade case lube dont require no clean up procedure :)

[km101]

I have done it many times with pistol ammo & rifle ammo with no ill effects. With lead bullets it just dulls the finish on the boolit. I use crushed walnut media and run the ammo from 15 min. to an hour pepending on the ammo.

[MT Gianni]

I believe that the Factories tumble to clean up ammo before it is sold. I do not venture to guess how long or what they might use for a tumbler.

[Mooseman]

This has been beat to death...It has been tested many times and proven that tumbling ammo for days , even weeks did nothing to change the powder or the way a cartridge functioned.
You must realize that ammo is shipped by rail, by truck, etc. and is subjected to vibration any time it is being handled and transported , on bumpy roads, in aircraft,from here to overseas and there is no effect on it. Factories do tumble loaded ammo before packaging it so it is nice and shiny when we get it.
Rich

[Dale53]

Many years ago, a local firm built a tumbler for Remington (as I remember). I took photos of it for the manufacturers rep to use in his business ("we can build them THIS big). It was humonguous. Every factory, to my knowledge, tumble loaded ammo. Look at it in the box - how do you think it got so shiny?

I keep tumbling of loaded ammo to a minimum - you can remove lube in about 15 minutes in most tumblers. It sure is not going to do any damage in that length of time.

FWIW
Dale53

[a.squibload]

I don’t tumble loaded cast don’t want to bugger up my Boolits.

You could probably get the same split opinion on is reloaded ammo safe.

I've tumbled swaged boolits with exposed lead
tips, no damage. Might round the corner
slightly if yours have a sharp flat nose.

[Crawdaddy]

Never tumbled loaded ammo but I did tumble primed brass by accident. Loaded a few and half didn't fire. The fulminate or whatever is used in the primer came out.


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[Jim]

Never tumbled loaded ammo but I did tumble primed brass by accident. Loaded a few and half didn't fire. The fulminate or whatever is used in the primer came out.

Now that's weird. I've tumbled tons of primed brass and never had misfire one.

[Artful]

Yes, factories tumble loaded ammo before boxing to remove lube. Yes, I have tumbled loaded ammo with no ill effects.

and Yes, I do have a story about motion changing the burning rate of loaded ammo!

When I lived in Oregon as a younger man instead of an old fart. I had many neighbors who could squeeze a dollar as well as any scotsman.
One of my neighbors bought a box of 20 factory cartridges for the truck gun load his 30-30 and put the rest in the glove box. This truck was
his daily driver around the rural roads including the gravel roads to work sites back in the woods. Each year he would use normally 1 cartridge
to get his buck. After over 10 years with the same box, he asked me why his lever gun was now auto ejecting the cases after firing.
Checked the rifle over and all looked ok, tried some of my loads - functioned ok. Tried his ammo - high pressure signs and it forced the lever open.
My only conclusion was that years of daily movement caused the powder to change.

[DLCTEX]

Now that's weird. I've tumbled tons of primed brass and never had misfire one.
+1. No ill effects tumbling primed cases or loaded ammo.

[MUSTANG]

OK Jim:

Now tackle the climate control issue. How long and how many cycles of -50 degrees and +135 degrees can that same ammo tolerate? :kidding:

Mustang

[MtGun44]

Tumbled ammo a few times. Many years ago I worried about grinding the powder into finer dust
and maybe causing problems. I tumbled a couple handsful of .45 ACP loaded with Bullseye overnight.

I chronoed it against ammo from the same reloaded batch that had not been tumbled. I found no
measurable difference in performance.

Bill

[Jim]

OK Jim:

Now tackle the climate control issue. How long and how many cycles of -50 degrees and +135 degrees can that same ammo tolerate? :kidding:

Mustang

I know you're messin' with me an' that's OK. I'm always up for a little foolishness. I missed it, though.

[shooterg]

I tumbled over 4000 rounds of GI .308 that was super grungy years ago- about 3 hours a batch. Ran 'em all through a friend's 1919 machine gun. All went bang, no split cases. Not hardly an accuracy test though !

I've heard that a lot of imported surplus ammo was tumbled for hours to clean up for commercial sales.

[smokeywolf]

Before this thread cools off, I want to thank Jim for starting it, Roosters for without doubt the most comprehensive piece of info., and everybody who responded. I hate learning from my own mistakes. So, learning from other folks knowledge and experience, good or bad, is priceless.

smokeywolf

[oneokie]

I tumbled over 4000 rounds of GI .308 that was super grungy years ago- about 3 hours a batch. Ran 'em all through a friend's 1919 machine gun. All went bang, no split cases. Not hardly an accuracy test though !

I've heard that a lot of imported surplus ammo was tumbled for hours to clean up for commercial sales.

I purchased 1,000 rounds of 308 mil surp years ago that was advertised as "tumble cleaned battlefield pickups". Only problems I encountered was with the FN cartridges, many of which had wet powder or primers.

[opos]

I load quite a bit of Trail Boss and with the little donut shape of the granules I might be a bit concerned about them deforming or being broken...I have heard that the reason that it might (stress might) be unwise to compress loads with Trail Boss is that the "donuts" get broken and change the burn characteristics of the powder...I know some folks use compressed loads all the time with no difficulty...just food for thought with tumbling loaded ammo with Trail Boss...I think I'd probably not do it...just personal preference.

[Jim]

Well, this has been an interesting thread. Not one post with any conclusive evidence that tumbling live ammo has any detrimental effect. On the contrary, there's been several posts from members talking about doing some sort of testing and found no ill effects.

Unless someone has some evidence to the contrary, I'd say that 'bout wraps it up.

Court is adjourned. Drinks on me across the street at Joe's!

[jcwit]

Started to do a search on The High Road for a thread where someone tumbled loaded ammo for weeks and every so often pulling one apart. Went thru 8, 10, 12 pages without finding it so gave up. I do remember there were no ill effects even after weeks and weeks of continous tumbling.

[Jim]

JC, ya' gotta take yer post down. Court's been adjourned. :kidding:

Besides, we're all over at Joe's gettin' steamed! :2 drunk buddies: :bigsmyl2:

[jcwit]

HaHa, Thanks for the Chuckle, I'll be right there, tell Joe to pour me a coffee, I don't/can't drink the good stuff.

[KCSO]

3D manufacturing use to tumble all the loaded 38 special ctgs for final finish. Tey used corn cob and a cement mixer. I did the same and never had a problem in over 100,000 rounds tumbled, 38 and 45 acp.

[Blammer]

Do NOT tumble HP cast boolit ammo!

Unless you don't mind picking out the media from the HP's. :)

the only real ill effects of tumbling ammo is that while it's tumbling you can't shoot it![smilie=s:

[MT Gianni]

Yes, factories tumble loaded ammo before boxing to remove lube. Yes, I have tumbled loaded ammo with no ill effects.

and Yes, I do have a story about motion changing the burning rate of loaded ammo!

When I lived in Oregon as a younger man instead of an old fart. I had many neighbors who could squeeze a dollar as well as any scotsman.
One of my neighbors bought a box of 20 factory cartridges for the truck gun load his 30-30 and put the rest in the glove box. This truck was
his daily driver around the rural roads including the gravel roads to work sites back in the woods. Each year he would use normally 1 cartridge
to get his buck. After over 10 years with the same box, he asked me why his lever gun was now auto ejecting the cases after firing.
Checked the rifle over and all looked ok, tried some of my loads - functioned ok. Tried his ammo - high pressure signs and it forced the lever open.
My only conclusion was that years of daily movement caused the powder to change.

Art, any possibility of bullet setback causing high pressures?

[Artful]

Ya, know I don't remember if I checked that - as I recall, after shooting mine and his and seeing the results. And I don't remember if his was from the box or from the tube. I just know his old ammo showed high pressure. And we decided it was time for a new box ammo for him.

But knowing what I know now about factory crimps even with tube fed rifles, I would doubt that it moved the bullets back - but I can't rule out the possibility.

[fatelk]

I wonder- with a box of 30-30 ammo riding in a glove box for ten years I would be more concerned about decomposition of the powder through the 3,650 daily cycles of heat and cold. It can get pretty darn hot inside a car on a warm day, and cold at night.

I'm not saying it couldn't have been the motion; just a suggestion for another possible factor.

[Crawdaddy]

Now that's weird. I've tumbled tons of primed brass and never had misfire one.

Might have had something to do with how many we're in the tumbler or length of time in there. I sure wouldn't have thought it either.

Might have to do with primer manufacture too.


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[Dale in Louisiana]

Oh, worse than that, guys. IN my tour in Korea, we carried a basic combat load of ammo on our tanks. Anybody who's ridden an M48 tank knows about the shaking and vibrating going on. We had a lot number of .30-06 ammo show up on the list as no longer fit for combat, so we used it in the next training exercises.

Admittedly, running ammo through an M-37 machinegun isn't a great test for accuracy, but it is a good test of reliability. I experienced no failures in properly maintained guns, and I would submit that the few years that those rounds had ridden in the ammo boxes of our tanks was way more than the equivalent of a few hours in a tumbler.

That being said, if I was doing ammo for precision, like benchrest or long range rifle, I wouldn't tumble it, but then most folks loading for those disciplines treat each round as a delicate and precious orchid anyway.

dale in Louisiana

[awkirch]

What Rich said. I'm also a machine gunner and we buy very old European surplus ammo in many calibers from 7.62x54R to 50BMG, including a lot of really nasty 303 Brit. we tumble the heck out of it to get all the 75 year-old crud off of it. Still works (most of the time) and no pressure issues

[Plate plinker]

OK Jim:

Now tackle the climate control issue. How long and how many cycles of -50 degrees and +135 degrees can that same ammo tolerate? :kidding:

Mustang

Your not supposed to keep the ammo around that long. Are we?

[lefty o]

i dont personally see a problem with short duration in a tumbler, 15min or so . however despite alot of people thinking factories tumble loaded ammo, no they do not. now jim bobs reloading shack might do it, but the big boys do not. been there, done that, and there is no tumbling of loaded ammo!

[dolfinwriter]

I'd like to hear from those wiser than me (or is it "I"?).

smokeywolf

The sentence implies that you are saying "I'd like to hear from those who are wiser than I am."

I have nothing to contribute to the debate/controversy, but I do have some grungy rounds I want to clean up before I load them in any of my guns, and a bunch of grungy jacketed bullets too. Sounds like it will be safe to tumble them, at least for a short time.