44 mag COL in my 1894

[jeepguy242]

ok lever guru's i got a winchester 94 (pre 60's) that i just started loading 250gn Keiths with, 21.0 gn of 2400 is where i thought i would start out, alliant website says COL is supposed to be 1.7, other websites i have seen says COL should be 1.7, but they will not cycle in my gun unless i make them 1.680.. is this gonna be a problem? most loads i have seen for 2400 say 19-22.5gn some of them say i can go up to 23.

at what piont am i gonna have problems with pressure and a 1.680 COL, even that short, sometimes they wont cycle, i get no problems at 1.59, and just start seeing problems by 1.67. the elevator will not lift the rounds to enter the chamber any longer than 1.68

[longbow]

Not sure with a Winchester but with the Marlin 1894 the cartridge stop can be modified to allow quite a bit longer OAL. I modified mine to allow seating out and boolits with longer noses past the crimp groove.

You might check on that to begin with and see if it is fixable.

If not then you will have to work loads up until you see pressure signs (if you do). Maybe someone else that has some hands on experience and will advise you.

Longbow

[jeepguy242]

thanks longbow, i will look that up and see if it can be adjusted...

[Chicken Thief]

I'm baffeld here. I thought that max length is 1.61"
55290

[williamwaco]

Go with the 1.59.

If it raises pressure, cut your powder charge half a grain.

[BCRider]

Images I'm finding for 250gn Kieth's style LSWC boolits sure does show that the cannelure groove sits well down from the shoulder. I assume that this was to allow Keith room enough to pack in all those big powder charges that he loved so much :D But it does mean that you're sort of stumped for trying to set the bullets back far enough to chamber unless you ignore the cannelure groove and pinch crimp directly on the portion between the shoulder and groove. OR you may need to alter the cartridge stop as suggested already to allow the round to come back a little farther onto the elevator so the nose is clear during the lift. If you do this you may also need to slightly relieve the rim ramp gaps in the side bars. Otherwise the rim being farther back may cause a jam as the nose is pushed ahead and into the mouth of the chamber before the rim is fully able to move up onto the face of the bolt.

[Crawdaddy]

Reduce the overall length a little to make it cycle. Also reduce powder charge to start with and work your way back up. I had to do the same with my Ruger 96/44.

[jeepguy242]

I'm baffeld here. I thought that max length is 1.61"
55290

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipePrint.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=250&shellid=33&bulletid=47&bdid=159

i guess it all depends on what bullet your using.. 1.61 does compress the charge of 21.2 of 2400

i also see that 20gn is what alliant recommends i actually got the 21.2 from http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=44%20Magnum&Weight=250&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

maybe i will back it off to 19 and try it

[Chicken Thief]

Please see page 55 of 170 and check the SAAMI/ANSI data.
It clearly states 1.61" as max length.

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf

[jeepguy242]

i am not debating that, but it does not specify bullet length or weight either, for a 250 keith, alliant powder clearly states COL as 1.71

for a 240, alliant powder clearly states 1.61 min length, http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/recipedetail.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=240&shellid=33&bulletid=52 like i said, different bullet weight, different length..

[Chicken Thief]

Ah, but you see Sir.
1.61" is the max. length of the complete cartridge whether you use a light or a heavy boolit!
It matters less in a revolver until the tips peep through the cylinger. But a lever rifle has a finite amount of space in the elevator for the cartridge, so you are on your own if you cross the max length of 1.61".

Look at the drawing.
1.61" is the length from the back of the rim to the front of the boolit.

[jeepguy242]

ok, im not here to argue, i will go by the powder manufactures current data, and you go by your 1993 saami data, how bout you let a couple of the other guys on here answer my question instead of arguing trying to prove yourself right.

[blackbike]

Sounds like your gun likes 1.59. Start at 19 grs and work your way up.

[longbow]

There are a number of cast boolits that when crimped in the crimp groove exceed the SAAMI OAL for .44 mag.

Elmer Keith designed the Lyman 429421 to put more lead outside the brass and to have a front driving band into revolver cylinder throats. Those when crimped in the crimp groove exceed the SAAMI OAL.

My Marlin would not feed them when I crimped in the crimp groove. The "quick fix" which many have done is to seat them deeper and crimp over the front driving band.

A better fix is to modify the cartridge stop to allow longer OAL. Yes, they exceed the SAAMI spec. Does it matter? The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook has loads listed with this boolit and others that exceed the SAAMI OAL by quite a bit.

I filed off about 0.090" from my cartridge stop and the gun now feeds long nose SWC's well. This may not be possible with the Winchester though.

The extra room allows seating boolits out for more powder space or using boolits that exceed the SAAMI spec the factories are stuck with.

Does that help?

Longbow

[jeepguy242]

yes longbow, that helps alot, this is exactly what i was looking for... being that i dont want to permanently modify my winchester being that it is all original, i think the best idea for me at this point is to crimp at the longest that i can possibly feed reliably, and to start at a powder charge 10% less than what alliant recommends, which would be 18gn of 2400, and work up from there with my crony and look for pressure signs till i get close to the load i am looking for without compressing the powder charge.. i do believe that the 20gn charge would be compressed with the 250's so i might be just about as close as i can go at seating the bullets at 1.67 with say 19gn.. sound like i am on the right track, or do you see something i am missing that could possibly hurt me or the rifle with a kaboom?

Jeep...

[jeepguy242]

Sounds like your gun likes 1.59. Start at 19 grs and work your way up.

thanks.. i think that might be the way to go,, start longest i can and work my powder up from say 18

[lmcollins]

Gentlemen:

I am not there to look at your problem, but, is it not possible that the shape of the projectile that extends from the case has as much to do with feeding as the length of the projectile that extends from the case?

Like I say, I'm not there to look. But I know that in centerfire bolt action rifles that is often the case. Just some thoughts.

[Chicken Thief]

Here is an animation of a lever action.
It clearly shows why the cartridge cant be way to long.

http://my.hunter-ed.com/Michigan/studyGuide/Animation%3A-Firing-a-Lever-Action-Rifle/201023_700042697

[longbow]

Like I said, not being familiar with the Winchester action/cartridge stop, I don't know how it is set up but with the Marlin it is part of the follower so you can alter it then if you don't like it or want the gun original you just replace the follower with a stock one. Very easy to do.

Longbow

[runfiverun]

the win action works just a bit different than the one pictured,but close enough.
the video doesn't show how the cartridge comes up in line with the roof of the chamber and is pushed forward before camming over into the chamber.
it also doesn't show all the internals the nose of the boolit must clear on it's way to the chamber.
having said all that the only 92 i have that won't take over saami length is my browning 92.
i modfied the carrier [cartridge stop] in my rossi 44 mag to take the 429241 boolit.
in the browning 1.610 is all that will clear the little feed ramp on the bottom of the bbl.

[jeepguy242]

that is the problem, the longest i can go is 1.67 or it wont clear the feed ramp, the shape of the bullet has nothing to do with this. my problem is that the recommended load i want to use shows a COL of 1.71 for a charge of 20 with 250gn.

if i seat it far back enough to clear i compress the load. big no no as far as the powder manufacturers data says, so if i want tu use the 250's in my winchester, i got to seat deeper, and use a lighter charge.

[JFE]

The 44 mag was originally designed as a handgun cartridge and some cast bullets were designed to maximize case capacity by using the available length of revolver cylinders, which exceed SAAMI specs. Some of these designs won't work in leverguns unless the OAL is reduced to allow the loaded cartridge to feed in the levergun. Loaded to a shorter length you will need to reduce the powder charge. The other point worth making is that some leverguns might not feed SWC designs well, even if OAL is fine. Some leverguns have difficulty with those sharp edges of SWC's and RNFP or Truncated cone styles tend to feed better.

[HangFireW8]

A pre-60's 94 in 44 mag? Is that even a thing?

Just wondering...

HF

[longbow]

Absolutely right JFE!

I did not have any problems with increased pressure when seated deep though and worked up to book loads for seating to crimp groove with no pressure signs. Don't forget that if there is more lead in front of the crimp groove for a given weight boolit, that means less lead behind it so seating a bit deeper isn't necessarily decreasing case capacity from a same weight boolit/bullet of different design.

Not only was the 429421 too long to feed well (it fed but marginally unless crimped over the front driving band) but the shoulder and nose both hung up on the chamber mouth as well. That took some reshaping of the carrier/follower to fix.

Why did I bother you ask? Well, I wouldn't have but I was a recipient of a beautiful Mihec brass Cramer boolit mould H&G #503 and it had the same issues in my gun. I wanted to be able to shoot it so I did the work. It feeds very well now and is a good accurate boolit in my Marlin.

Another simpler "fix" I have not done but that has been posted is to cut a small radius or bevel on the chamber mouth. Again, this fix was for Marlins and how they feed. I don't think I have read of the same issues with Winchesters feeding SWC's. Even with Marlin it is hit and miss in that some apparently feed SWC's just fine. Mine didn't though!

Longbow

[Chicken Thief]

Here's something about altering:

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/jams-all-kinds/

[jeepguy242]

A pre-60's 94 in 44 mag? Is that even a thing?

Just wondering...

HF

According to the site i looked it up on unless i misread something it said 1953 to 1959 was the approximate age for my serial number

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[jeepguy242]

The 44 mag was originally designed as a handgun cartridge and some cast bullets were designed to maximize case capacity by using the available length of revolver cylinders, which exceed SAAMI specs. Some of these designs won't work in leverguns unless the OAL is reduced to allow the loaded cartridge to feed in the levergun. Loaded to a shorter length you will need to reduce the powder charge. The other point worth making is that some leverguns might not feed SWC designs well, even if OAL is fine. Some leverguns have difficulty with those sharp edges of SWC's and RNFP or Truncated cone styles tend to feed better.

This is the route in gonna go. I have been using 205 and 240 swc with no problem yet its just the 250 cause its longer. It feeds fine in a dummy round at 1.67 all day. But that compressed the charge from the book by 1/8" in gonna try a lower charge and post the results

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[BAGTIC]

I have a Winchester M94 Trapper in .45 Colt, about the same official length as .44 Magnum. I ground back the cartridge stop to the point where I could load a .45 Colt COL 1.85. It feeds interchangeably with factory ammo. In the .45 it results in about a 25% increase in useable case capacity. No work needed to be done to the chamber or throat.

[digger44]

I thought 69 was the 1st year for 44mag 94Win

[digger44]

Lyman 44 lists OAL for cast bullets :
429215 - 1.645 (215 grn)21-24 / 2400
429360 - 1.672 (232 grn)20-23 / 2400
429244 - 1.690 (250 grn) ?????
data for the 1st 2 are shown but not for the 429244

[44magLeo]

The Lyman 429244 isa Thompson design that is similar to the Keith but uses a gas check.
Im my Marlin the 429421 feeds and shoots fine. If I had your Winchester I would either get the work done to use the 429421 in a full length case or trim back the case so I could crimp in the crimp groove and get the over COL I need. Or if You don't want to do that you can try using Special cases. That might give you the length you want.
Just start with a lesser chagre and work up to find the max your gun likes. You may find that the shorter case with the slighty reduced powder charge gives you about the same velocity.
In my 44's my light load was 8.5 grs of Unique behind the 429421 in the mag case and 7.5 in a Special case. The velocity was about the same. I never shot them over a chrony but they shot to the about the same point of aim at any distance I would shoot them to.
Leo