Best way to verify powder charge in 5.56

[blikseme300]

Moderators, if this is in the wrong place please move it.

Ok, here goes. I have been reloading for many years and have shot thousands of rounds without any issue. Well, this weekend my son was shooting my AR-15 and had a kaboom. He is ok, which is great. The upper is wrecked though. It seems that a squib load had sneaked past and he did not recognize this when the rile failed to cycle. He dropped the mag and used a new full one. The first shot after was the kaboom.

The BCG opened up like a flower bud. I pounded the BCG out of the wrecked upper and yes, there is an obstruction in the barrel that is brassy in color.

My mind raced over how this could have happened. I have always been a-retentive about safety. My best guess is this: failure to drop proper amount of powder. I usually use either H335 or BLC2, which is a fine ball powder that meters well. This batch though was loaded with Varget, a stick powder. I hand prime but load on a LnL AP. Lee auto disk powder measure and a rifle drop tube is what is used for powder dispensing. The aperture in the tube is quite small.

After loading I check every cartridge in a case gauge as well as visual inspection for anything out of the ordinary. This would not catch an under or over charge though.

My question is this, as it is almost impossible to see the powder level in the case when in the press, how best to post load safety check for powder charge? Should I weigh every cartridge after loading?


Bliksem
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[bradh]

I load all cartridges 50 at a time, load powder then place under a bright lab light and visually check each case for even amount
of powder. Been loading over 37 years and have not had a problem.

[billyb]

What press do you use? I use a rock chucker for all of my rifle loading. I also load 50 at a time. I use a RCBS powder& ball powder for the 5.56. Stick powder will sometimes bridge and cause an over charge in one case and an under charge in another. I charge all 50 cases and place them in a loading block, and then visualy check each case with a small flash light. A under charge will stand out., Your eyes will pick out the difference easy. Bill

[blikseme300]

Thanks for the replies so far. I use a Hornady Lock and Load AP. It is a progressive press. All of my other rifle cartridges are easy to see into when in the press due to their larger diameter case mouth. 444 Marlin and 300blk. The .224 mouth is hard to see into while in the press.


Bliksem
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[blikseme300]

Looking into a powder cop or such. There is a space open before the seating station. Comments or opinions welcome.

[garym1a2]

I single stage the 223 so I just check them in the tray. All the ones on the turrent and the loadmaster are checked with a bright lamp during boolit seating stage. I have caught a few that way. The lee autodisk measures sometimes do this. You also need to train yourself that if a round seems light or an empty case is in the chamber theirs a problem. A full charge always kicks out the empty in my ARs, glocks and 1911. I found this out when my Lee measure did not drop charges in 5 cases out of a 50 test run in 45acp. Even in a big match I will take a DNS or DQ instead of risking a problem. For me tap and rack only works if they are shooting at me.

[blikseme300]

I single stage the 223 so I just check them in the tray. All the ones on the turrent and the loadmaster are checked with a bright lamp during boolit seating stage. I have caught a few that way. The lee autodisk measures sometimes do this. You also need to train yourself that if a round seems light or an empty case is in the chamber theirs a problem. A full charge always kicks out the empty in my ARs, glocks and 1911. I found this out when my Lee measure did not drop charges in 5 cases out of a 50 test run in 45acp. Even in a big match I will take a DNS or DQ instead of risking a problem. For me tap and rack only works if they are shooting at me.

Gary,

The kaboom could have been prevented but it played out like an episode from seconds from disaster.

1. Changed to a less forgiving powder. Varget does not flow like H335 or BLC2 and probably the auto disk did not return and the cartridge had no charge.
2. Hard to see into case while in the press because of small case mouth. I do have lighting inside the press arch and all brass is cleaned using SS media.
3. I was not the shooter. I used to shoot PPC and am a rifleman vet so am very aware of unsafe conditions and out of ordinary functioning, my son not so much.

What I am going to do is to get a Dillon powder check and include weighing of each round post loading.



Bliksem
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[Longone]

What type of sizing die are you using? FL or Small base FL? How far back are you pushing the shoulder? Are you using mixed brass (headstamp)? Could be that a case not properly sized and caused an out of battery explosion. Do you have the case and can you post pics? If the case is not properly sized the bolt may not have locked, this causes the rapid drop in chamber pressure and will shove the bullet part way down the barrel, if there was an obstruction in the barrel prior to firing this round there will be two projectiles in the barrel and a bulged barrel.

[blikseme300]

What type of sizing die are you using? FL or Small base FL? How far back are you pushing the shoulder? Are you using mixed brass (headstamp)? Could be that a case not properly sized and caused an out of battery explosion. Do you have the case and can you post pics? If the case is not properly sized the bolt may not have locked, this causes the rapid drop in chamber pressure and will shove the bullet part way down the barrel, if there was an obstruction in the barrel prior to firing this round there will be two projectiles in the barrel and a bulged barrel.

Using Hornady FL dies to size, LC brass and length checked in Wilson gauge prior to priming and loading. There does appear to be 2 projectiles in barrel. I used brass rods and measured from both ends and the offset is almost the length of 2 bullets.


Bliksem
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[krag35]

RCBS used to make a "powder checker" die. It mounted on the press between the charging station and bullet seating station. Might be worth looking into.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/199393/hornady-powder-cop-die

It seems RCBS does not offer their product anymore. This is very similar to what I use.

[Judan_454]

When I charge my cases on progessive or my turret press I set my powder charger up so it throws the charge of powder a 1/2 grain short of desired weight. Then I dump the powder out of the case in pan on my scale and trickle the other 1/2 grain of powder. I know this is slower but its worth it to me,you know the case has powder in it and its the right weight.

[snowwolfe]

If you want to be 100% sure weigh each round on a electronic scale after they are loaded. Really does not take that long to do as the electric scales are super fast.

[williamwaco]

I vote for the powder cop die. works great for me.

[KYCaster]

I also load 223 on an L&L AP. I leave the die station before the bullet seater empty. When the ram comes up, the charged case sticks up through the empty hole and I can easily see the powder level. Lower the ram, set the bullet on the case then seat and crimp. The next charged case is now at the empty hole.

I will not put a bullet on the case if I can't visually verify the powder charge........any case, any press, any loading method......I just won't do it.

Jerry

[smoked turkey]

I also have a Hornady Pro-Jector progressive that I used to load a lot of handgun loads on. I found the use of the powder check die mentioned in post #10 to work for me. It is easy to get rolling along and let one get past without really looking, but I always did a couple of things without fail before lowering the ram. One was to check for proper primer operation and the other was to visually check the powder check die for proper position of the indicator rod which shows powder level in the case. It is not meant to be precise on powder measurement but would let you know of a no-charge or a double charge load. I recommend you try to get one of the check dies as they do give some peace of mind and when religiously used do work pretty well.

[btroj]

My father in law weights each round of loaded ammo. Detects those that are either light or heavy in powder charge.

You can use any mechanical means possible burin the edit is up to the user to pay attention.

You also need to make sure your son understands the importance of checking the barrel after any shot that seems different. A squib that left a bullet in the barrel should be quite noticeable.

[Love Life]

Can you remove the charged cases on the LNL like on a Dillon 550B?

I pull the every charged case from the charging station and check for powder when using Benchmark to load .223 on my dillon. It slows the process down a little, but is still significantly faster than single stage.

Also the powder check die will help you alot as well.

[blikseme300]

My father in law weights each round of loaded ammo. Detects those that are either light or heavy in powder charge.

You can use any mechanical means possible burin the edit is up to the user to pay attention.

You also need to make sure your son understands the importance of checking the barrel after any shot that seems different. A squib that left a bullet in the barrel should be quite noticeable.

Yeah, the son now listens to the old man. He learnt a lesson in life that youth are not immortal and that paying attention is crucial.

Some good suggestions have been made and I will figure the best way.

My presses are mounted quite high so it is not so easy to see into the case mouth when the ram is raised to the top as suggested by a number of posts. However this gave me an idea of a mounted mirror and illumination. Like an illuminated aircraft gun site that will allow seeing into the case at the top of the stroke. I'll play with this and give feedback here.

I will in future weigh every cartridge just to be sure. I use a surplus Mettler-Toledo chemistry scale, which is connected to a computer, to weigh charges and small weights. These scales are not only very accurate but have fast refresh rates so checking each cartridge won't take much time. I'll write a small program to allow me to set min/max points and have an audio visual alert when weight is out of this range. Nice worthwhile project, I think.



Bliksem
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[john hayslip]

If you can, instead of checking on the upstroke of the ram check on the down stroke. Cut a short dowel and put a pencil mark around where the powder level should be and stick it in the case. No craning of neck or anything difficult and it shouldn't add that much time to your reloading. Personally I use the 50 in a block under the light approach.

[Blammer]

I'll bet the next time the rifle fails to cycle he'll stop and take a closer look!

I always do...

I would switch powders to help prevent such things. Only real suggestion I have.

[DrBill33]

bradh has is correct. When the 50 are charged and in the block, I tap the cases and the LOOK. If you are using the indexing type of press, after the powder is dropped, and prior to placing the bullet, have your loading light set so as to be able to see into the case...you should be able to rapidly develop the ability to see if there is a powder discrepancy. Has worked for over 70 years for me, and I am currently using the indexing for handgun, and remove the indexing rod for long-gun loading..
Best of Luck

[Larry Gibson]

Varget will "bridge" in the smaller drop tubes and keep the full charge from entering the case as you have found out. Suggest you stick to ball powders such as H335, AA2460, AA2230 and BLC2 for an automatic press. Also give some thought to mounting the press lower or use a foot stand so you can visually see the powder before putting the bullet in. That is what I do when loading on my Dillon 550B. I'm not sure if the RCBS powder check die will work on the LNL press(?).

Hopefully your son has learned that when the rifle doesn't function make sure by opening the upper and removing the bolt that the bullet is not lodged in the bore. Glad he was not injured.

Larry Gibson

[Mud Eagle]

I don't understand the dislike of Varget in .223: a nice mid-level charge (25 or 26 grains) is just enough to fill the case up to the neck. It is easy to look in and see if you have a charge or not.

I find that very convenient.

[blikseme300]

I'll bet the next time the rifle fails to cycle he'll stop and take a closer look!

I always do...

I would switch powders to help prevent such things. Only real suggestion I have.

Blammer,

He should pay attention if there is a next time. Youth only wakes up when shaken, I know this from personal experience.

My bad was using a powder which I was unfamiliar with because the regular was not available. The other human failing, impatience. I gave him the wrecked upper as a reminder to pay attention in future. My lesson was not so easy, we buried my friend.


Bliksem
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[Four Fingers of Death]

varget is great stuff (it is made in Australia!), but I'd be hesitant to use it on a progressive press without a powder cop die when I couldn't see into the case. Hornady makes one, as does RCBS. The RCBS one has nylon internals, but still should be good if they are still available. The Hornady P/cop will be dearer, but the Hornady stuff is well built (if you can wait for the stuff to arrive if you live in Australia. I got so sickand tired of waiting for bits, I bought a used RCBS Ammomaster and the LnL is still in the box cluttering up my shelf.

The idea of pulling each round off and checking it sorta defeats the purpose of having a big dollar AP I reckon.

[KYCaster]

varget is great stuff (it is made in Australia!), but I'd be hesitant to use it on a progressive press without a powder cop die when I couldn't see into the case. Hornady makes one, as does RCBS. The RCBS one has nylon internals, but still should be good if they are still available. The Hornady P/cop will be dearer, but the Hornady stuff is well built (if you can wait for the stuff to arrive if you live in Australia. I got so sickand tired of waiting for bits, I bought a used RCBS Ammomaster and the LnL is still in the box cluttering up my shelf.

The idea of pulling each round off and checking it sorta defeats the purpose of having a big dollar AP I reckon.



One of the things I really like about the L&L AP is it has lots of room in it. Boolit seating station is right at the front where you can see into pistol cases easily.

When loading rifle, I leave the station just before the bullet seat empty. When the ram is raised the case sticks up through the empty hole and I can see into the case to verify the powder level.

You're right, it's a real pain to remove each case from the press to see the powder level. That's the situation I deal with loading 38 Special on a Dillon SDB. There's no way to see 2.7 gr. of Clays in that tall case so the only option is to pull every case out to check it. Yes, it's a pain but that's what I prefer to do rather than not check at all or depend on a mechanical device to do the checking for me.

Jerry

[Larry Gibson]

I've no qualms about Varget in the .223 either as it is my LR target load powder of choice also. But as with Four Fingers, I wouldn't use it in a progressive unless a visual or quality mechanical powder check was used. It just bridges too easily in small drop tubes.

I load my .223 LR match loads on a single stage anyway because of this and use a Lyman 55 to drop the powder charges. Two solid raps with the knocker unclogs any bridging and all the charge goes into the case. A visual inspection for powder level is done on each before the charged case goes into the loading block.

Larry Gibson

[billurbank]

Weighing the cases is too late, if they are wrong you have to take them apart to start over. I have used a long golf tee with the head circumference filed down to easily slip into the case mouth.

Since you are looking for no charge or double charged the tee will tell the tale, till the COP die shows up.

[W.R.Buchanan]

When setting up my Metal Matic II to load .223 I started with 5744, it didn't meter consistantly. Then I went to Varget. It would run fine for a few rounds then it would bridge and charge short, then the next round got way too much. at that point I was check weighing every charge so this is how I found out. I also had a little dowel that I was using to check powder. It was a PITA so I changed powder.

I switched to BLC2 and it runs perfectly. I use a Dillon PM on the Metal Matic II.

Weighing loaded cases is not a valid check guys. There is so much difference in the weights of the cases themselves that you can't tell anything meaningful from it. If your charge is 2gr light or heavy it won't show up because the difference in each rounds total weight is too big.

If you are going to weigh every round, you might as well just weigh every charge. It is much more productive.

Changing to a powder that runs right is a better option.

Randy

[Four Fingers of Death]

I load my .223 LR match loads on a single stage anyway because of this and use a Lyman 55 to drop the powder charges. Two solid raps with the knocker unclogs any bridging and all the charge goes into the case. A visual inspection for powder level is done on each before the charged case goes into the loading block.

Larry Gibson

I bought myself a Lyman electronic powder dispenser earlier this year, but before that i used a similar set up for my rifle reloading, firstly with an RCBS and more recently with a Redding powder measure, both on a 1981 vintage RCBS Rockchucker press. I loaded the cases into a tray as I seated primers into them. The die was screwed into the RCBS plate and the other end was screwed to the press, using a spare die to hold it down. I lost the RCBS plate when I sold the RCBS Uniflow, so I bought a stand for the Redding.

Then I took the tray and charged all 50 cases in the tray using the measure and gave the handle a hard flick downwards so that it shook the measure consistently between drops. I then took the filled cases in the tray out into the sunlight (or directly under the light to check levels and picked 5 from the 50 at random around the tray and checkweighed those, returning the powder to the case if ok. I once got a few difference, dumped the powder from all of the cases, packed up, went to bed and had another go the next day. As my Irish ancestors used to say, 'To be sure, to be sure!'

More recently I have been using a Lee classic turret press and the Lyman electronic dispenser. Pistol cases use a Lee auto disk in one of the stations and I just eyeball the slide as it comes across and dumps the powder into the case. Rifle case get sized and primer seated, then removed and I eyeball the primer while I wipe away the lube. If all is ok, I pick up the powder funnel with my left hand, open the cover on the dispenser,remove the tray/dish of dispensed powder and drop it into the case. Return the tray/dish to the scale, lower the cover, press the button, place a bullet/boolit into the case and return it to the press for sizing. Sounds complicated, but is pretty quick, efficient and safe.

I am about to go to progressive for some (read most if it works out) of my rifle reloading, so I will probably look at changing powders for those.

[uscra112]

My solution is that I don't use a progressive loader, period. Wouldn't take one if it was a gift. I also follow the policy of charging a case and immediately seating a bullet. Call me antediluvian, but there it is.

My powder measure is an old RCBS. It has never bridged when using Varget. I'm very sure of this because I weigh every charge. Varget is an ideal powder for the 5.56x45 - best accuracy loads are compressed, gives very low SD over the Chrony, and is clean, clean, clean burning. I will never go back to ball powders in the 5.56x45.

[762 shooter]

I load all my rifle on single stage. Cases are made ready to prime before hand. Priming with hand tool takes about two minutes. Throw light and trickle to weight. Check powder levels in tray with a strong flashlight. Seat bullet and not worry. I can do two trays, 100 bullets in about 30 minutes. 700 a week.

That way I know EVERY round is the way I think it should be. One bad round is TOO many.

I have a 1050 and a 550 that I use for 45 acp. Big fat brass.

YMMV

762

[uscra112]

Forgot to mention that I have an aluminum "loading block" in front of me when I'm loading. It has ONE hole. I charge a case, put it in the hole. Drop a new charge in the pan and put it on the beam balance. While the scale is settling, I put a boolit in the case and run it through the press. Trickle the new charge to weight, select a primed case, dump the pan and repeat. This setup and sequence is specifically designed to make double-charging as difficult as possible, since I do many reduced and pistol loads that don't fill the case.

The Lyman is used only to seat for 5.56/.223, 9mm, 357 Magnum and .357 Max. All case sizing and final crimping get done on an RCBS Junior that is just out of the picture on the right. Priming is done with a Lee hand-held.

Primed cases are always upside down. Enables visual inspection. The only case that's ever mouth-up with no boolit (or j-wart) is in the single-hole block.

The little aluminum cylinder left front is a cartridge-specific powder funnel. Bottom is cut with the chamber reamer to fit the case neck, so it stays put while dumping powder. Hard to spill any with this little tool.

This setup looks a little cramped, but it works for me. First built it when I was in rented digs, and had to be able to move everything with minimal packing and unpacking. It's been 15 years since, and I still use it. There's a light behind my left shoulder that makes reading the balance easier.

[bob208]

well you have hit the main reason i use a singel stage press. i can inspect after every step. when all cases are charged i take a flashlight and look in every one of them while they are in the loading block. never had a over or under charge.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have always used a 1981 vintage Rockchucker for my rifle reloading (I have also loaded a truckload of handgun ammo during the years before I got my Dillon 550 and when things were tight and I sold my Dillon550 to feed kids). During the last year or so I have used a Lee Classic Turret Press(how can it be a Classic when it has only been out for a few years,????LOL). This speeds up the process a good deal, but still lets you control the process completely. I lube with Lee white stuff as it disappears as soon as the case is sized) then size and prime, remove the case, dump powder which has been dispensed by the Lyman Electronic scale ( I used a Redding powder thrower previously, inspected the powder level in all cases and weighed random cases). After filling the case from the dispenser's ladle, I pressed the button for another charge , placed the powder funnel back on the bench. The charged case was then returned to the press and a bullet/boolit seated and then crimped in the final station. As I removed the round, I gave it an overall inspection as I picked up another case, if it passed inspection, it was placed into the cartridge holder/ammo tin/ ice cream container.

I find this works well, is safe and sure and a lot quicker than the old batch loading I used to do on the Rockchucker.

I have picked up a Consistent Crimp and plan to load my handgun ammo on the RCBS Ammomaster Progressive, using a boolit feeder and a powder cop die and seat the boolits on the press and crimp in a separate operation on the Rockchucker using the consistent crimp and the RCBS Case Kicker. I don't think they make the Case Kicker any more, but it is a magic bit of kit when cycling the shorter cases through the Rockchucker. You lower the handle and raise the ram enough to get the spring out of the way, insert a case, run it up into whatever die you are using then raise the handle and the case will be ejected automatically (don't use it with a Lee Auto Disk and a powder through die, lol, yo want to remove them yourself, haha! But the mere fact of not having to remove the rounds off the shellholder, doesn't sound much,but really speeds up the process. It allows you to be picking up the next case as the ram is being lowered, the case or loaded round just drops into the little bin on the side. I didn' understand it when I first bought it and didn't use it, but pulled it out some years later and after working it out (pretty simple actually, but I'm a bit of an un-co sometimes) started using it and now swear by it. It sprays dead primers around occasionally, but for the extra convenience, I can live with that.

[uscra112]

There's a thread around here somewhere about making a duplicate of the case kicker out of an old hacksaw blade. I'm so enamored of the idea that I'm going to make one after the holy days are over.

[Four Fingers of Death]

There's a thread around here somewhere about making a duplicate of the case kicker out of an old hacksaw blade. I'm so enamored of the idea that I'm going to make one after the holy days are over.

It is worth it's weight in gold for loading short cases on a single stage press. Let me know if you want any photos of it, I will dig it out and take some.

[uscra112]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172993-RCBS-case-kicker-copy-with-improvements!&highlight=case+kicker

[kweidner]

Here's an idea. Take another seating die caliber Is unimportant. Put in empty station between powder and seat location. Take out the seating stem. Find a dowel rod small enought to fit through seater and into case mouth. . Slide an oring on top end of dowel so it wont fall through. Let it slide through empty seating die that is backed all the way out. When press comes up it will move dowel up. Make an indicator mark on dowel at top of die when a full powder charge is in case. Home made powder checker. Might even work better with a piece of 3 part cleaning rod. I only use dillon for straight wall. Just a cheap home
Made solution.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Here's an idea. Take another seating die caliber Is unimportant. Put in empty station between powder and seat location. Take out the seating stem. Find a dowel rod small enought to fit through seater and into case mouth. . Slide an oring on top end of dowel so it wont fall through. Let it slide through empty seating die that is backed all the way out. When press comes up it will move dowel up. Make an indicator mark on dowel at top of die when a full powder charge is in case. Home made powder checker. Might even work better with a piece of 3 part cleaning rod. I only use dillon for straight wall. Just a cheap home
Made solution.
I've been waiting for a powder cop die from the importers all year. I was just about to import one myself. It never occurred to me to make one myself, D'Oh!!!

[Digger]

Reading this made me contemplate the process ... and came up with a home made version(Kwiedner's description earlier) of the Hornady powder cop die this afternoon.
It will help in my .308 loading process ....
over in the reloading equipment forum..
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?176098-Home-made-powder-cop-die

[kweidner]

Glad I could help guys. What I love best about this place is the people and ideas. We are all tinkers of sorts. Awesome job Digger. Little more fancy than my crude concept. Hopefully some others can gain from this.