Field Stripping a Browning Highwall?

[Dragoon 45]

Made a find today at the gunshow. Picked up a Browning Highwall in .40-65 with factory sights, three pounds Elephant FFg, two SAECO .40 caliber moulds with handles, Lyman .40 M-die, Lyman .40-65 reloading die set, around 120 cases, and other odds and ends for $1200. The bore on the rifle is bright and shiny, but it does have a little surface rust on the block, so I am looking for take-down instructions on the rifle. Tried to search the forums, but either I screwed up or the there is nothing to find. Anyone got the takedown instructions?

Thank You.

P.S. What type of inserts does the front sight on the Browning use?

Again Thanks in Advance.

[LIMPINGJ]

Look up post by member texasmac, might have what you need. I know he covers it in his book.

[bigted]

i will second the "texasmac" book!!! great book to have for any of the jap-chesters...it gives many great insights as well as the takedown instructions...i put it off for awhile just becouse it sounded very complicated but after tackling it the first time...i will not hesitate as it is way easier then anticipated...HOWEVER...not a job to be done in the "field".

[XTR]

As I understand it there isn't much danger if you don't try to take the trigger apart. I've been told that taking the trigger apart requires that you get inside of an old refrigerator box to ensure that you don't lose any parts when it goes *SPROING* and sends the 23 springs and pins and keepers flying in all directions.

Lee Shaver is also a good source of info and does trigger jobs on them, though I'm not sure what he can do with the older B-78 model, that trigger mechanism was apparently about 30% more complex than the current watchmakers design.

[texasmac]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the recommendations and reference to my book, the detail of which can be accessed at www.texas-mac.com.

Dragoon45, if it's a BPCR model with the heavy 1/2 octagon 1/2 round barrel, you scored a heck of a deal at $1200 for the rifle and all the stuff. $1200 for the rifle along is a very good deal. To remove the block will require complete disassembly of the action, which is not a simple task and generally requires step-by-step instructions and a degree of mechanical aptitude. If you follow the instructions in my book and take your time, nothing should spring out or fly out of the action.

FYI, To remove only the trigger/sear and trigger spring is a relatively simple job consisting of removing the stock and pushing out a small pin that holds the trigger in place, which is what one does if sending the trigger off to Lee Shaver to have the sear modified to reduce the trigger pull.

Wayne

[Dragoon 45]

It's the BPCR model in .40-65. Has the original Browning rear tang sight, but evidently the original front sight was replaced. The front sight uses what appears to be MVA style inserts, but it is not an MVA front sight. I can not find any markings on that front sight to tell who made it.

I got most of the slight surface rust off of the block that I could get to. I would like to pull the block out of it just to check to see if there is any more rust that I can't see. Evidently it set in a safe for a while. The lever still retains most of its coloring, but the receiver has had most of its color fade. The bluing on the barrel is in almost new condition. The extractor may be a little weak, but I won't know for sure until I shoot it.

I will probably order your book after Christmas.


Hey guys,

Thanks for the recommendations and reference to my book, the detail of which can be accessed at www.texas-mac.com.

Dragoon45, if it's a BPCR model with the heavy 1/2 octagon 1/2 round barrel, you scored a heck of a deal at $1200 for the rifle and all the stuff. $1200 for the rifle along is a very good deal. To remove the block will require complete disassembly of the action, which is not a simple task and generally requires step-by-step instructions and a degree of mechanical aptitude. If you follow the instructions in my book and take your time, nothing should spring out or fly out of the action.

FYI, To remove only the trigger/sear and trigger spring is a relatively simple job consisting of removing the stock and pushing out a small pin that holds the trigger in place, which is what one does if sending the trigger off to Lee Shaver to have the sear modified to reduce the trigger pull.

Wayne

[texasmac]

Dragoon 45,

If the breech block has some rust on it you most likely need to disassemble and completely clean the action. Until you get a chance to disassemble the action, I recommend opening the action and spray it from above and below with a gun cleaning spray or break cleaner. Spray it outside or in your open garage over clean paper towels until the excess spray runs out clean. Then spray the action above and below with a good gun lubricant over a couple of paper towels and let it set for a while on the towels to collect any excess lube. I highly recommend Remington's Rem Oil. Any excess lube will run out of the action and the remaining lubricant will dry, leaving all the action parts coated with a thin lubricant. I do this with my personal Browning BCPRs after shooting a match or a session at the range and have never needed to pull the actions apart.

By the way, the extractor is not spring loaded so your comments that "The extractor may be a little weak..." does not apply.

Wayne

[Dragoon 45]

Thank you for the hints.

I put a couple of dummy rounds into the action, full length resized Starline brass and BACO 400 grn bore rider, the cases would not extract when opening up the breach. I looked at a diagram of the action on Browning's web site and it showed a spring in the extractor assembly. Did I get the wrong diagram? It was supposed to show the exploded drawing of all the parts on a Browning Highwall.

[XTR]

There is a difference between the BPCR versions and the standard highwalls. The BPCRs have an extractor but do not have the spring loaded ejector. The extractor just lifts the brass out of the chamber so you can pull it with your fingers. I've not used one but I'm going to go out on a limb here and bet that it works like the one on a '74 and you have to pull the lever all the way forward to extract the brass out of the chamber about 1/4 inch.

[texasmac]

Dragoon 45,

XTR is correct, the BPCR models only have an extractor that pushes the case out of the chamber a short distance to allow complete removal with your fingers. All BPCR silhouette and long range shooters reload, many use the brass as fired (no resizing). Therefore they do not want the hot brass being kicked out of the chamber and dented by hitting the ground. Hand extraction is the norm. Browning only has one diagram for all models of their 1885 High Walls, which shows the ejector system. It does not illustrate the extractor.

Wayne

[oldred]

Just a question about the complexity of the new model Browning/Winchester High Walls. First I want to make it plain that I am in no way trying to knock these excellent gun designs it's just that I am not all that familiar with the internals of them but very familiar with the old design which functions quite well. What are the advantages/disadvantages of the new vs old design? The old design is of course dead simple with fewer parts and is very easy to field strip or to reassemble, basically compared to the old models the new design is a whole 'nother animal. Again not trying to say the old is better just that I have often wondered about the advantages of the new vs the old.

[texasmac]

oldred,

I doubt that I can give you all the reasons the High Wall action was changed, but the Browning/Winchester current (since 1985) High Wall action design incorporates at least a couple of safety features not in the original Win. design, and is a modification or improved version of the earlier Browning B-78 High Wall design. The main disadvantages of the current design is the added complexity and a set trigger is not available from anyone, most likely due to the complexity of the action. Two of the added safety features that I'm aware of are the addition of a hammer sear and the redesign of the firing pin.

In actual operation the additional hammer sear is an inertial sear, making it just about impossible for the hammer to be in a fired position (pressed against the firing pin) without intentionally firing the rifle. For example, if your thumb slips off the hammer in the process of either being “thumb cocked” or lowered to the half-cock position, the inertial sear catches the hammer and ensures the rifle will not fire. Since the hammer will never be pressing on the firing pin of an unfired cartridge, if the rifle is dropped & hits on the hammer the rifle cannot fire.

The firing pin was redesigned from the original Winchester High Wall design and is based on the Mann-Niedner type, which, along with the breechblock design, eliminates any possibility of high-pressure blowback from a ruptured primer. The firing pin has a large diameter shoulder which prevents it from being blown back through the smaller diameter hole in the rear of the breechblock. It’s retracted by a coil spring and held in place by a large bushing, which is threaded into the front of the breechblock. A retainer pin through the breechblock and along one edge of the bushing prevents the bushing from turning and working loose. In the event of a ruptured primer, the breechblock has a large vent under the firing pin to divert escaping gases down into the action, away from the shooters face.

Most likely there are other reasons for the redesign, but these are two that I'm aware of. By the way, the lack of a set-trigger is not cause for much concern since the sear can be worked and the trigger spring replaced, resulting is a very nice crisp trigger pull around 2 lbs or under.

Wayne

[oldred]

Thanks, I figured it probably had more to do with safety than to try to improve upon the function of the rifle, as much as I like the old originals they are unfortunately lacking in safety features. I find the changes you mention quite interesting because I made very similar changes in my scratch built High Wall especially the similarities in the newer style firing pin. On my rifle I eliminated the "wing" on the firing pin and made a completely round pin that goes into the breech block from the front and is held in with a bushing, there is a shoulder on the rear portion of the pin much like you described on the new one to prevent any possibility of the pin being blown back and to also provide a seal where the pin protrudes from the block. My pin is also retracted by a coil spring but the similarities pretty much end there and it would appear there are quite a few more firing pin safety features on the new Brownings/Winchesters. I made several other safety mods to hammer and sear to make cocking and loaded carry safer but I am sure it's no where new the safety level of the new guns. Thanks for the info as I have been very curious about these newer rifles but other than handling a couple of them at the gun store I know little about them, I found some parts diagrams on the net and some discussion on forums but very little in the way of comparisons between old and new designs.

[semtav]

Thank you for the hints.

I put a couple of dummy rounds into the action, full length resized Starline brass and BACO 400 grn bore rider, the cases would not extract when opening up the breach. I looked at a diagram of the action on Browning's web site and it showed a spring in the extractor assembly. Did I get the wrong diagram? It was supposed to show the exploded drawing of all the parts on a Browning Highwall.

Dragoon
If you look at the extractor when you start to open the block, and it falls away from the cartridge rim, you either have a real weak spring or the spring is missing. Probably the latter. I bought one the same way. You probably got it so cheap, because the last owner took it apart and lost the spring.
Not a problem as the part is cheap but putting it back together is challenging.

too bad I didn't read this a week ago. I was in Tulsa and could have helped you
Brian


p/n's you probably need are B3474774 spring and possibly B3474776 plunger

(I wanted to make it down there in time for the gunshow, but was a week late :( )

[texasmac]

Semtav,

In reading your response I may be guilty of making an incorrect assumption when I responded earlier to Dragoon 45's comments about a weak extractor spring. I assumed he was expecting the case to be ejected as is the normal situation with most of the non-BPCR models. With non-BPCR models there is a long spring in the ejector system. If it’s missing the case will not be ejected. In the BPCR model there's no ejector spring because there's no ejector, but, as you noted, there should be a small spring and plunger inside the extractor. The spring and plunger function to lift the extractor so that it properly contacts the case rim. The spring and plunger also function to hold the lever pin in place.

If the spring is broken, which is unlikely, or missing, or the plunger is missing, several problems can result. In some rifles the extractor will lock up the action and keep it from fully opening. If the action does open fully, the tip of the extractor will not rise sufficiently to catch the case rim. Finally, since the spring and plunger also helps to hold the lever pin in place, the pin can fall out, especially if worn slightly.

As you noted, the spring and plunger are relatively small and can fall out during disassembly and reassembly. When cleaning the rifles I buy and resell, I use heavy grease similar to the factory grease to hold the spring in plunger in place during reassembly.

Wayne

[bigted]

exelent post!!! thanks Wayne for chipping in with your advise. those bpcr's are some kinda fun but as mentioned they can fail if the smallest thing is overlooked. im used to hand fitting old harley bearings and honing to fit so the takedown was a cake walk after i read your text on the how-to's and the "donts"...LOL. the book is an invaluable asset to have with these rifles. i find that when all is working fine that a brisk thumb thrust will send the spent case back rite smartly into my waiting hand but as you mention that small spring and plunger...if not watched carefully when re-assembling...can cause much sweat and blue words till the culprit is fixed.

semtav...good catch on the plunger and spring...i also was thinking about the spring on my hunter models ejectors and had forgotten the small little cuss maker that i also use thick greese to install so it stays in place with the plunger while installing my little brass punch that is just .002 inch smaller ... and tapered on the end ... then the pin so it slips thru and captures that plunger before i start the pin into its home.

dragon...these are a real treat to play with and the "book" gives some valuable insights into these fine rifles. you got a steal and as such you have wiggle room for trigger work and slickening it up if it needs...fine find tho and welcome to the "japchester family". they are NOT the origanal winchesters however but still are fine rifles just the same...just dont think that the origanal rifle from the browning beginings and made famous by winchester are the same animal....i will find my "origanal" that will fit my pocketbook someday but till then ill be happy with all three of my japchesters.

[march41]

do your self a favor,buy waynes book and johnnie stepps tool kit.they both work great. bob

[Chill Wills]

do your self a favor,buy waynes book and johnnie stepps tool kit.they both work great. bob
I'll second that in spades.

[Doc Highwall]

I have wayne's book, but where do I get johnnie stepps tool kit?

[texasmac]

I have wayne's book, but where do I get johnnie stepps tool kit?

Doc,
If you have the 2nd edition of my book you can read about John's Stepp's kit on page 120 & 121. His contact information is on page 264.
For the 1st edition see pages 112 - 114 and 244.

Wayne

[Doc Highwall]

Thank You! Wayne, I have your first book.

[Dragoon 45]

Thanks for the info. I didn't want to take it apart not knowing how to do so. I think I will find a good gunsmith to look it over and repair anything that needs it.

[march41]

John Stepps Phone is 530-365-7036.Kit also comes with detailed info.Sight inserts are same as lyman 17A,Check with Lee Shaver his inserts are great and fair priced. Also again buy Waynes Book.