Win.94 (1902) goes to the range

[blixen]

After seeking advice on post '64 Mod. 94s on this site. (Thanks!) I stumbled across an old Mod. 94 (1902) this week that was marked "Winchester ??" and "as is". (I still don't know why pawn guys were baffled by it--but I suspected problems) Bought 'er, cleaned it up a bit and made a temporary front sight for it.

Took it to the range today with some 30-30 cast loads meant for another 30-30. Lee C312-185 mold sized to .311 and gas checked. Lubed with 45%pastewax/45%LeeAlox/10thinner. I used Red Dot 7gr and 8gr and Trail Boss 11 grain loads.

First--the old girl functioned! As in, it cycled rounds without a hitch and FIRED.
Two--the groups at 25 yards were not spectacular, but show promise, considering the bullets were seated a tad too long. See fotos.
Three--my temporary brass sight was the right height to put the plinker rounds on target at 25 yards when lowered the whole way.

The lube really shined up the bore. It's actually shiny, with what appears to be some tiny pits.

I don't want to jinx it, but I might have a shooter on my hands.

NOTE: Despite what it says on target--the load was RED Dot.

[454PB]

Very nice rifle. Mine was made in 1927, and with a little experimenting, shoots into 3/4" at 50 yards using the iron sights and the Lee 170 RNFP gas checked. In mine, I DO use Bluedot.

[sthwestvictoria]

Great write up and photographs blixen. I also purchased a pre-64 after advice on this forum.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?158429-Pre-64-winchester-94-Vs-post-64&highlight=pre+post+winchester


Lee C312-185 mold sized to .311 and gas checked.


I aminterested in this boolit, particularly to achieve a fat boolit for a marlin MG 336. Obviously it works for you but I had two concerns - more grey area concerns than true yes or no questions. These are the hoary old 1 ogive round nose in a tube magazine and the other is the GC below the neck with this long boolit.

My other thought was to get the mold and then mill off the GC part, giving a lighter .312 PB boolit.

[blixen]

swvictoria--I have the same concerns as you do about that boolit. I got it for my SMLE and argie mausers--where it is outstanding. It seems to work OK in my 336 and Stevens bolt action despite sticking so far into the case.

I'm looking for a shorter boolit with a thinner nose, maybe the lee LEE DC MOLD TL314-90-SWC for.32 pistols. It's only 90gr, but folks on this site have gotten good performance out of it. The lee .314 for the AK case --C312-155-2R --looks good, too. but it's even more pointy for a tube load.

[sthwestvictoria]

The Lee TL-314-90-SWC is excellent, see my thread here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172940-win-94-loves-Lee-TL314-90-swc-and-trail-boss

Only annoying factor is getting that short boolit to seat in a case with standard dies. That is it in the avatar picture.

[TXGunNut]

Old girl's been around but she still has some good shooting left in her. Enjoy!

[Terryrm1-03]

I just bought a 1907 Win 94 SRC. Has 19 (deer) tally marks notched in the forestock. And has 5 elk tally notched marks at the bottom of the forestock. Has no finish what-so-ever on the recvr from use in the mountains. But it still shoots a great group.
Have fun with your rifle, I am. This group was at 100yds. Was just getting a group first, its now zeroed in with this load for coyotes!
55084

[blixen]

It was very cold and windy today, but I couldn't put off an opportunity to play with my 1902 '94, which I have learned has had the barrel shortened from the breech end and been rechambered.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172857-Old-Winchester-94-front-sight

Whatever was done to it, was done well cause this lady is a shooter.

Used Lee C312-185 mold sized to .311 and gas checked. Lubed with 45%pastewax/45%LeeAlox/10thinner. Seated deep with the nose barely kissing the rifling. The gas check is below the shoulder, but it doesn't seem to affect accuracy. I got GREAT results with Red Dot 8gr and Trail Boss 11 grain loads.

I got a 5/8" group with Red Dot at 25 yards, then moved out to 50, where I got under 1.5 inch groups with both Red Dot and Trail Boss. This is with iron sights and old eyes (I used a Merit aperture on my glasses) on a dark and windy day. I think I'll put a peep sight on the Winny. Also my handmade front blade is too low and I had to hold well under even at 50 yards.

I tried 5 rounds loaded with 13.5 grains of 2400, which sprayed into a 5-inch group at 50 yards.

I also had my Marlin 336 with a 3-9x scope with me. It shot the same load with 2400 into a 7/8" group at 50 and shot the trail boss load into a 5/8" group. The boolits were seated even deeper in the cases to chamber in the Marlin that has Microgrooves.

By the way, I know that a couple groups isn't definitive, but it is promising and I know my cast bullets will shoot well. Now, I'll start tinkering with the loads. (And take more ammo next time.)

I apologize for the photos--I forgot my targets and had to recycle some used ones, so they're a mess.

[markinalpine]

I apologize for the photos--I forgot my targets and had to recycle some used ones, so they're a mess.

I've learned that being cheap (or frugal, or as you put it, recycling) is the way to go. I take along masking tape and pasters to repair some of the targets others throw away with only a few hits on them.

Enjoy your recycled shooter :bigsmyl2:

Mark [smilie=s:

[TXGunNut]

Shame it's not d&t'd for receiver or tang sights. Dovetail for a front sight would be nice too. Know a good 'smith?
OTOH there used to be an outfit called One Ragged Hole that made an aperture sight that fastened to the rear sight blade.

[blixen]

It seems to have a factory filled hole in the tang about 2.25" forward from the stock screw--I can just barely make it out. Is that possibly a pre-tapped hole for a tang sight? If so how would i get the plug out?
A tang sight would give me a nice long sight radius. See the outline of the hole in the photo below, left of the W in Winchester.
55715
Otherwise, I can tap the receiver for a lyman or williams receiver sight--if I can be forgiven for bubbaing an already modified rifle.

[Shakey Jakey]

The redfields come up on ebay regularly and end up costing about what a new williams will set you back. I have a really nice 1951, which happens to be the year the factory started to D&T for a receiver sight. Of course mine was made just before they made that move. Cost me a couple bucks but I had it D&T and found a nice Redfield 70 with hunter knobs installed. Mine will shoot into an inch at 50 yds with RD 165's and 16 gr 2400. The last 1/4" of lever closing engraves the boolit. That load gives me about 1700 fps.

[Griff]

Certainly looks as though the tang has been brazed up. And yes, the round circle in front of that brass line across the upper tang is where the plug would be for the front tang sight screw hole. As a rifle of that vintage would be tapped for a tang sight.

[blixen]

55739
Certainly looks as though the tang has been brazed up. And yes, the round circle in front of that brass line across the upper tang is where the plug would be for the front tang sight screw hole. As a rifle of that vintage would be tapped for a tang sight.

Another problem with putting on a tang sight is that the tang in that area has a slight "step" in it that is not matched on the base of the tang sights I've seen. In other words the blind hole for the front screw of the sight is on a bit of a hump.

Come to think of it, what's the deal with that brazing on the tang? Its seems factory done because the trademark is stamped into it.

This ol' 94 has a bunch of mysteries.

[pietro]

It looks like the rifle suffered some sort of impact from the RH side, that snapped off the tang and cracked the RH receiver wall next to the hammer recess; enough to most likely destroy the original/issue buttstock - why all the brazing, a low-temperature (relatively) repair.

Maybe it was in a saddle side scabbard, when a horse decided to roll around on it.

The "hump" looks like the broken off/rearmost section of the tang wasn't set exactly even at the top with the forward portion, prior to brazing.

What we used to call a "serviceable" repair.............................


.

[blixen]

It looks like the rifle suffered some sort of impact from the RH side, that snapped off the tang and cracked the RH receiver wall next to the hammer recess; enough to most likely destroy the original/issue buttstock - why all the brazing, a low-temperature (relatively) repair.
.
which would explain why the stock doesn't match the forearm.
55777

But does it explain why the breech end of the barrel was cut off and rechambered?
55776

I've never seen a rifle receiver repaired like that--these days you'd just toss the rifle or at least get an entirely new receiver--back then, you fixed stuff.

I like your horse rolling over it surmise-- if rifles could talk...

It makes me like it all the more.

[rintinglen]

You have to realize that guns were more expensive back then. A new 94 that retailed for 21 dollars in 1900 represented over a week and a half's pay to the typical factory worker making .35 to 50 cents an hour, much less to the 10 dollar a week agricultural worker. When the horse fell on it and broke it, repairing it was a no brainer, because the 7 or 8 dollars it cost to have it fixed was a far cry from the cost of a new one. Someplace I saw a list of prices for an old time gunsmithy, I can't put hands to it right now, but I recall one of the items listed being "supplying, finishing, fitting and chambering a new barrel to your gun...11.00." I don't remember the exact date, but it was from hat same general time frame.
Today, If my 30-30 had a similar accident, I'd simply look for another one. A clean used gun could be had for about a day and a halfs wage--say 350.00 dollars. A gunsmith would charge two hundred for the barrel work plus the cost of a stock, and the frame repair.

[KirkD]

Whoever had that rifle repaired must have valued it. It is all part of the carbine's history and makes it more interesting. Glad to see that carbine up and shooting again. Looks like it will do you well. Because of that hump in the upper tang, I doubt I'd go with a tang site; it wouldn't fit proper. Instead, I'd have the receiver drilled and tapped for a receiver sight as others have suggested. That is a great old rifle. There's nothing wrong with that brass blade front sight either, so long as it stays in place. If not, it can always be pinned.

[blixen]

Yeah, i love a rifle with a personal history. i've decided to d&t the receiver for a receiver sight. I'd like to get old lyman, but they are hard to come by.

I finally got the pin out of the front sight mount -- took some careful, well-placed whacks. Now I'll make another brass one that's a bit taller and pin it securely in. I'd like to get a piece of Firesight rod to glue on top (I got old eyes). Is it possible to buy 1/8" of that material? Is there a substitute--fishing line, etc.?

By the way, as I examine the rifle with insight from the folks on this site, it seems evident it had a hard working life.

--Somewhere along the line the buttstock and tang were broken off (horse rolled on it, fell out of/run over by a truck?)
-- For some reason the barrel was shortened at the breach end and rechambered (biggest mystery).
-- The replacement buttstock has several shallow cracks just north of the butt plate. It looks as if the rifle spent long days in a scabbard after the repair and was subjected to harsh weather and developed cracks from that.
-- Yet, it has retained most of the bluing and the bore is shiny, so someone took good care of it.

[pietro]

IIRC, blade-type FireSights (ILO dovetail types) might be available from Williams (say, for a 1903 Springfield) that could be adapted to your rifle's barrel sight fitting.

Failing that, I've ground down the sides of a dovetail-type FireSight of the correct height, until I had what amounted to a blade-type sight, cold blued the sides , fitted & installed/pinned in in. (Us a lot of watering during grinding, though - or the plastic bead WILL melt)

About the shortened/rechambered barrel, again, a repair of expediency & low expense, compared to buying a new barrel (in the day).
Even though the magazine tube would also have to have been shortened when the barrel was set back (so the hangers would line up, I'd WAG that the entire job done at a local blacksmith/gunsmith/machinists, back then, would have cost less than $10.

The original chamber might have rusted, or been otherwise damaged enough that a new chamber or entire barrel were the only choices available at the time.


.

[Jack Stanley]

Just think ...... adding the pawn shop to the tale will be part of it's history when you get ready to pass it on to the next caretaker .

Jack