Post '64 Win '94 reciever metal not blueable?

[G. Blessing]

Hello Again,

Soposedly the alloy can't be blued? The reason for the black coating to begin with I assume....

A couple folks on another forum(who I have no reason to doubt their word FYI) have re-finished theirs, but the guns wouldn't take the blueing.....

BUT, I figured that I'd ask around anyway. :) [smilie=1:

The black paint-ish coating on mine is chipped in a few places, and I'm exploring my options for re-finishing it. I'd love to be able to nitrate blue it a nice bright blue, but If it won't take a regular hot blue, I doubt it taking this finish?

Need to do something, its started to rust slightly on those exposed spots, and if I don't keep up with it, I have the suspicion of it migrating under the coating....

I hate the idea of doing a spray 'n' bake finish myself, and there are so many options for having it done by a shop, I don't know where to begin(spendy too).

Ideas or advice?

G.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I'm not an authority on this, but I think the easiest way is to matt chrome them. I have a niggling feling somewhere in the back of my head that there is a process that works. No body seems tp fix them here, crappy ones are $300-350, good ones are $350-450. MIck No doubt someone will come to our rescue shortly.

[Linstrum]

Hi, G. Blessing, Mick has a good idea, two of my 9mm autos are hard matte chrome plated so they won’t get scratched up easily and I recommend the matte chrome or even the more durable tungsten plating for guns that need protecting from wear due to heavy use. A good heavy hot bluing job is also pretty darned hard, especially a hot lye-nitrate bath bluing (actually a metallic black color) like you mentioned. Basically, though, if it is rusting you can blue it since the bluing is just one of the many forms of good old plain ordinary rust! I haven't heard about the post '64 model 94 receiver not being blueable, but I'm not any authority on post '64 Winchesters at all. When Winchester took measures to economize production costs (cheapened their products) in 1965 it could be that although the 94 receivers were made of blueable steel they were not blued simply because painting or “cold enameling” was much cheaper. Now with that said, usually the reason why certain gun parts can't be hot blued or otherwise traditionally blued chemically is because they are made out of aluminum or zinc die cast alloy. The only aluminum Winchester product I know of is one of their 94-22 models. Aluminum can still be blackened or given a reasonable dark blue color quite satisfactorily if it is anodized first, which puts on a super tough coating of sapphire that takes color quite well, but that is basically a painting or dyeing process that produces the color. Not all steel alloys can be blued, either, the steels that have a high nickel or chromium content will not develop a heavy enough iron oxide coating because the other metals interfere. Stainless steels are alloys with little or no iron and very high nickel and chromium content and it is the nickel and chromium that impart their so-called “stainless” properties.

Un-blueable metals like stainless steel and brass can be quite easily blued using traditional hot bluing methods if they are simply electroplated with iron first, something that is very easily done to most metals except aluminum. Aluminum can also be iron plated, but a special process has to be used and it is cheaper and easier to anodize it and then dye it instead. By the way, anodizing aluminum is a reverse electroplating process that produces a coating of aluminum oxide instead, which is sapphire when made into a gemstone. You can iron plate non-aluminum parts yourself, but it requires a great deal of work to remove the old original coloring by buffing and sanding since the parts to be electroplated have to be absolutely clean. If you are going to have your receiver re-finished you might look into what your options are and if the costs are acceptable have your receiver electroplated with either chrome or tungsten, or iron if it is not blueable. Good luck!

[fourarmed]

Model 94 receivers with serial numbers over 2,700,000 are made of an alloy that can't be blued by normal means. My source for this is "Gunsmith Kinks II," so I believe it. A friend of mine had a 64A refinished, and they used a spray-and-bake finish on the receiver. They turn out sort of maroon in color if you try to blue them. In GKII there was mention of iron plating the receiver, then bluing.

[Linstrum]

Hey, there, fourarmed! Thanks for the info, now I know two things: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/icons/icon14.gif First, of course, is that 94s above SN# 2,700,000 aren't blueable.

Second is the reason why the aren't blueable is because they are instead maroonable! :kidding:

Actually, the maroon color is a clue to what is going on with those 94s since manganese-nickel steels produce that color when blued and that is a sign of a really super tough and strong alloy. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/icons/icon14.gif That doesn't surprise me because Winchester was the first United States rifle maker to use modern high-alloy steels in regular production guns, I believe starting all the way back in 1879! Technically speaking about steels, that was a real long time ago because most other gun makers didn't catch all the way up on using the so-called "crucible steels" until the 1930s! Back before the last turn of the century, when somebody said "tough as Winchester steel" it really was something pretty darned tough and strong.

Well, G, take your pick on the "bluing" method, there are several ways you can go to make it look purty again!

[G. Blessing]

Thanks fellows. Should have mentioned that chrome is out..... not my cup of tea. :-D

I should have put it together that if its rusting than it will blue.... DUH! I feel smart now... [smilie=1:

Well, I won't lose anything by trying. If it goes, all the better. If it doesn't take, I can always strip it again. :)


Thanks for the metalurgy/blueing refresher, I wish I'd met you a few(18) months back when I started with chemical treating my knife steels. You just put it all into one simple post.... Where I learned all that, it was a tad bit harder to follow.... :roll:



Un-blueable metals like stainless steel and brass can be quite easily blued using traditional hot bluing methods if they are simply electroplated with iron first, something that is very easily done to most metals except aluminum. Aluminum can also be iron plated,


Although, I had not heard of iron platting aluminum before.... brass etc., yes, but not aluminum. There's the fix for the black paint on my marlin .22 I can imagine it being quite expensive compared to anodizing/ dying. Although ano is almost free if you know where to get the chems cheap, so not much comparison here.... ;)

Will have to check with my electro plating suplier and see if they have the stuff for doing iron...

Maroon? hmmmm.... I wonder how a good rust browning would come out.... hmmmm...


G.

[floodgate]

Linstrum:

" That doesn't surprise me because Winchester was the first United States rifle maker to use modern high-alloy steels in regular production guns, I believe starting all the way back in 1879!"

Ackshully, Colt was the first, around 1860, when they started importing "silver steel" from England. An alloy somewhat akin to our "drill rod", it let them squeeze the old .44s of the 3-1/2 lb. "Dragons" into the Navy frame. the .36s into the little .31 frame, and five instead of six chambers into the .31s. A much later breakthrough by Winchester in 1895 was the use of "nickel steel" in barrels; the '94s in .30-30 and /25-35 were held up for a year until they found an alloy thatwould hold upto the early, erosive smokeless powders. Was it you who recommended the great book "Fighting Iron: A Metals Handbook for Arms Collectors" by Art Gogan, from Mowbray Publishing Co.? If not, it's a fine source of info on this stuff.

floodgate

[Buckshot]

.............Ruger M77 receivers don't really 'Blue', but have a somewhat reddish hue seen in some lights. I don't think their being cast has anything to do with it, but rather the steel alloy chosen. My 1973 vintage M77 Round Top exhibits this coloration. Also high nickel alloys can refuse to blue evenly.

................Buckshot

[Frank46]

.............Ruger M77 receivers don't really 'Blue', but have a somewhat reddish hue seen in some lights. I don't think their being cast has anything to do with it, but rather the steel alloy chosen. My 1973 vintage M77 Round Top exhibits this coloration. Also high nickel alloys can refuse to blue evenly.

................Buckshot

I had a friend who had one of the no blue wonders. He decided to elimanate all problems by having all the metal work parkerized a dark green. Looked linda wierd at first but the more you looked at it it kinda grew on you. Lotts guys were getting it done on their truck guns. Maybe this could be an option. Frank

[Four Fingers of Death]

" having all the metal work parkerized a dark green. Looked linda wierd at first but the more you looked at it it kinda grew on you."

Sorta like a wart :D

Will they take a rust blueing?

The chrome looks pretty good if it is a matte finish, somewhat like the sliver nitrate finish on shotguns.

I've had a few that were like yours, I kept them well oiled when stored between uses and eft it at that.

[Marlin Junky]

I don't know how the following relates to the type of "bluing" a M94 will allow but after about serial number 2,587,000 the "type 2" receiver was produced. The type 2 receiver was made of "sintered metal", a technique by which powdered steel is formed under heat and pressure into a specific shape. Whether it was the alloy itself that prohibited a conventional blue or the "sintered metal" or a combination of the two, I wish I knew.

MJ

[C A Plater]

Before you reject hard chrome out of hand, this is a mid-70's vintage 94 I'm converting to .38-55. I had the receiver and lever done and did the metal prep myself.

http://tcbunch.com/kiosk/hard-crome-2.jpg

[exblaster]

how about black chrome or black nickel
Exblaster

[Junior1942]

There was a picture on leverguns.com a while back of a post-64 Win 94 with a purple receiver due to a sintered blue job. Looked kinda purty to me. A fellow could do that on purpose and sell 'em in San Francisco.

[Chuck 100 yd]

I read in Brownells news letter that they CAN be sucessfully blued with a simple trick or two. The parts are done as usual in hot salts bath and after the normal lenght of time they are removed from the bluing tank and dunked into a tank of ice water and then back into the salts for a short time. It changes the purple to a deep blue. Contact Brownells help line for more help. Chuck 100 yd

[John F.]

C.A. Plater, very nice looking rifle! May I ask who did your finish on the receiver/lever, and was it very expensive?
Thanks,
John

[C A Plater]

C.A. Plater, very nice looking rifle! May I ask who did your finish on the receiver/lever, and was it very expensive?
Thanks,
John
IIRC the job ran about $120 and was by Metaloy (http://www.originalmetaloy.com/). I had it done a couple of years ago before I moved to Alabama so I expect it is a bit more now.

[G. Blessing]

Before you reject hard chrome out of hand, this is a mid-70's vintage 94 I'm converting to .38-55. I had the receiver and lever done and did the metal prep myself.

http://tcbunch.com/kiosk/hard-crome-2.jpg


That is purty!! :Fire: Its not as glossy as most chromed finishes.... And I've seen a few in the last coulple days browsing the various forums, done in chrome and blue, or polished steel and blue. The look is growing on me. Thats a lot coming from me, I don't even like chrome on cars or my motorcycles...

Hmmm..... I just remembered this link I've been holding onto; http://www.mrarms.com/ for an auto pistol I was going to have done..

G.

[Linstrum]

Hi, G, the iron salt usually used for electroplating stuff with iron is plain old iron sulfate. If your supply place can't get it you can make it pretty easily by using steel wool, fine iron wire, or small inexpensive nails like 2d or 4d size and reacting them with regular sulfuric acid like is used for conditioning swimming pools or unplugging drains. Be careful with sulfuric acid, especially the concentrated drain opener stuff that can make a violent steam explosion with water, which you probably already know all about if you do electroplating and anodizing! The iron sulfate can also be made by using sodium bisulfate toilet bowl cleaner in place of sulfuric acid but it is very slow compared to reacting nails with sulfuric acid. The voltage required for plating iron is a little higher than for copper but I don’t know what the amperage density should be. I’d try the same setup as for copper plating on a test piece and see what you get.

Hey, Floodgate, thanks for the info and correction on gun steels. It was not me who mentioned Art Grogan’s book, I only found out about it lately myself and have not had a chance to look at a copy. I see that I transposed 1897 into 1879 and did not catch it, I knew that Winchester used the new alloys starting with the barrels chambered in the designed-for-smokeless 30-30 cartridge in the 1894 model that did not actually go into production until a bit later than 1894 for the reason you mentioned, and the year 1897 stuck in my mind for some reason, probably from the 1897 Winchester shotgun. Close, but no cigar! I had no idea about Sam Colt using a "crucible steel" back then, thanks for filling me in on that little tidbit. That is no surprise, though, because it was also some time around 1860 when Bessemer started mass-producing his Bessemer Converter Process Steel in Great Britain and Sam Colt had connections there. Bessemer steel was needed to make the high-alloy crucible steels like Silver Steel because Bessemer Process Steel’s high purity was required for the crucible steels to have their desired characteristics. Bessemer worked developing steel alloys in his own right and experimented with many kinds of specialty steels that at the time were totally unheard of, trying many of the things that are now commonplace in steel alloys nowadays, like nickel, chromium, vanadium, manganese, molybdenum, and tungsten in his experiments. Some of the metals tried were not known in metallic form at the time and only minerals containing them were added to the iron smelter furnace. Perhaps in Art Grogan’s book it mentions the steel produced at Toledo, Spain, going back about 500 years, when probably in the 15th Century the blacksmiths of Toledo discovered that the iron ore found only at Toledo made steel that was just a quantum leap better than steel made anywhere else and is why Toledo swords were so superior to any other, except those supposedly from Damascus, Syria, that were actually camel-caravanned over there from India that also had some alloying element as well. According to the article I read in Scientific American back in 1968, the iron ore that was used by the Toledo blacksmiths turned out to contain vanadium, which is used in spring and wrench steel nowadays. A lot has been said about the Damascus Process of hammering and folding the steel back on itself 30,000 times to make micro-laminations as being the secret of Toledo and Damascus swords, which does add a very beneficial structure to the steel. But then in about 1968 somebody analyzed Toledo steel and found that it contained vanadium, which was the real secret to its vast superiority. Men like Bessemer and Krupp developed our modern steels not knowing that the blacksmiths of antiquity had been using some of the same alloying agents. On the other hand, the ancient artisans had been without the knowledge of what it actually was that was responsible for the superiority of their product over similar products, mistakenly thinking that it was the blood of chickens, oxen, horses, and even humans, that the swords were quenched in that was responsible for the characteristics of their sword steel.

[G. Blessing]

There was a picture on leverguns.com a while back of a post-64 Win 94 with a purple receiver due to a sintered blue job. Looked kinda purty to me. A fellow could do that on purpose and sell 'em in San Francisco.

I assume you mean in the forums there....

Any idea how far back? :-D I'd like to see that, if only just for kicks...

I just sifted through 110 pages of 1650 topics..... Only about two monthes worth, that forum sure is active! :Fire:

No luck with their sugested google searching of the site either.

Found a few interesting re-builds, and some othe great info though.


when they started importing "silver steel" from England. An alloy somewhat akin to our "drill rod",

floodgate


I wanted to add; modern O-1 tool steel is almost identical to those two. IIRC only a point or wo off in nickel (might be the chromium, but I'm pretty sure its a difference in nickel) content from silver steel, and in some cases is drill rod. Good steel, Heat treats to a high toughness. Just FYI, from the catacombs of my mind.. :roll:


Hi, G, the iron salt usually used for electroplating stuff with iron is plain old iron sulfate. If your supply place can't get it you can make it pretty easily by using steel wool, fine iron wire, or small inexpensive nails like 2d or 4d size and reacting them with regular sulfuric acid like is used for conditioning swimming pools or unplugging drains. Be careful with sulfuric acid, especially the concentrated drain opener stuff that can make a violent steam explosion with water, which you probably already know all about if you do electroplating and anodizing! The iron sulfate can also be made by using sodium bisulfate toilet bowl cleaner in place of sulfuric acid but it is very slow compared to reacting nails with sulfuric acid. The voltage required for plating iron is a little higher than for copper but I don’t know what the amperage density should be. I’d try the same setup as for copper plating on a test piece and see what you get.


AHA! thank you, no, my suplier didn't list it. Yes sulfuric acid is quite dangerous, its used in my buisness, slightly dilluted, to etch steels, maily damascus layered steels.

One way of simple copper plating(might be a common way of doing it, I don't remember; been over a year since I did my re-search) is to disolve the copper in an acid(not strictly sulfuric acid) bath. Put the piece to be plated in the bath and aply a current(one side to piece, other to the bath, much like anodizing is done). Will have to see if I can do the iron that way.

I have iron disolved in a mild acid/vinigar solution as an old world leather die.... wonder if that would work..... Errrr, Sorry, thinking out loud. [smilie=1:


Gary