temp sensitive????

[chevyiron420]

im still wandering why most times when i flux it doesnt work, but once in a wile it does! sometimes i can flux with my NEI or LBT flux and nothing, but then do it again with some boolit lube, and bingo! sometimes the reverse, and sometimes it aint going to happen at all. i started wondering if the alloy needs to be at a different temp? i just let my alloy get fully molten and then give it about 15 minutes more, and flux. my lee pot is usualy set at about 6.5 to 7 on the dial where it casts the best.-phil[smilie=2:
P.S. i have never had a flux do anything visualy to a load of alloy in the smelting pot, at all, ever. is this unusual?

[44man]

Other then getting the crud up to the top and skimming it off for a clean surface, you will not see any effect in the lead. Flux just allows the alloys to re-mix if any did separate a little. Make sure you stir the flux through the melt, don't just dump it on top.

[montana_charlie]

im still wandering why most times when i flux it doesnt work, but once in a wile it does!
Describe what happens when it works.
When it doesn't work, tell us what is missing.
CM

[chevyiron420]

CM, after the lead is all melted, as you know, there is junk floating on the top. i know its not correct, but lets call it dirt. mixed in with this dirt is aloy, making it a silver mudd. when the fluxing works, the aloy comes out of the dirt and back into the pot, leaving a dry gray powder dirt. i think its oxides and junk, but its dry and powdery. when it doesnt work the aloy stays mixed with the dirt, like silver mudd and you have to end up scraping off the stuff and wasting a little aloy. i obviously dont know everything, but except for five years off, i have casted more than some folks, and i cant tell the difference in the boolits between scaping off all the junk from the top and go to casting verses getting a good flux. i do know people that dont flux because they say its a wast of time and doesnt do anything, but im still doing it out of habbit. it may sound stupid, but i just want to understand better and hi tech jargan doesnt help me. i smelted 150 pounds of lino today, and fluxed with candles, it worked once. i did notice the alloy was cooler that time???-phil[smilie=2:

[454PB]

From your description, I think you are keeping the temperature too low. Try cranking it up to 8 or so on your Lee pot and see if it changes.

Fluxing is one of the most controversial subjects on this board. I'm in the camp that believes it cleans the alloy, rather than recombining the various metals. I once tried to separate the alloys by keeping it molten for several days, and found that it failed.

[Bass Ackward]

Chevy,

There are two reasons to flux. One is to clean the melt and the second is to return the oxides to the melt. When you want to do the second, you also perform the first. But when you do the first method, you often don't see the second benifit. Especially as you progress to richer mixes of tin or antimony.

If your fluxing a low consentration mix like WW, then the first method is all you need. But as you progress to richer and more expensive mixes, it pays to go to the second method.

Fluxing is more effectively done by something that burns on top the melt. I like parafin or candle wax. Put it on there and light it up. Let it burn till it goes out and have something long enough to stir while its burning. Then you have actually fluxed your melt. Otherwise, even with WW, you removed some stuff you didn't want to lose.

P.S. Save your dross for the next smelt.

[44man]

I also doubt it does much to the metal but I flux to clean the surface because I use a dipper. Have to keep the crud off the top.

[leftiye]

454pb, Lower is better, less oxides form at lower temps. Actually, your argument may still have the answer. If Chevy's melt is at a lower temp he may actually only have dirt and few oxides, so it isn't real apparent when he fluxes. 2nd Mt C's, and B.A.'s comments. True fluxing is only to get dirt to separate. Refining or reducing recombines oxides to the melt. Flame, even a torch is a big benefit in doing this as it creates an ionic situation in the flame that helps remove the oxygen from the oxides. Rosin, and other ingredients of soldering flux are very good at reducing oxides chemically. All of this being said, the oxides do begin to form again immediately after you flux, and it does make you wonder how to keep up with it. I've been using ground charcoal as an oxygen reducing barrier on top of my melt. A burning barrier would be better, but maybe a PITA too!

[chevyiron420]

B.A. i understand what your saying about two different things you are tyrying to acomplish, and what those are, but im confused about, if your describing two different procedures to do each or is it the same. maybe some confusion on fluxing also comes from not understanding what is in the dross. i dont realy mean a hi tech discription, but in laymen terms. when i read the lyman book 25 years ago, i did not take away a understanding of what i was doing. i now believe that oxides are the gray powder stuff i refer to as dirt, and i dont care if it can be returned to the melt or not. as long as i can get it aloy free im happy to throw it away. so it seems that what im after is to be sure my metals in the aloy are blended IF they can separate when melting, and get the aloy out of the dirt\oxides so i can throw it out. i guess its also frustrating when a book says after fluxing you will be left with a melt with a mirror looking surface with just a few black and brown impurities. it dont work that way for me![smilie=2:

[Bass Ackward]

i guess its also frustrating when a book says after fluxing you will be left with a melt with a mirror looking surface with just a few black and brown impurities. it dont work that way for me![smilie=2:


98% of the stuff people toss is recoverable metal. When you smelt and flux you rid yourself of most of the dirt unless you have rust in the pot or something. And yes, the powdery stuff on top is metal oxides. How much fine powder dirt do you see around the house unless you're in the desert?

Just try what I tell you. What have you got to lose? Don't be afraid to let it burn for a minute or two until it burns out. See if it don't look like what Lyman is telling you. Remember, Lyman's standard. Lyman is fluxing Lyman #2. #2 is 5% antimony and 5% tin. If it's dirt, it will still be on top, scrape it off and toss it. If it's metal, it will be gone, back to the melt leaving that nice shiny layer until it starts to oxidize again.

[leftiye]

Time for a monkey wrench yet? There's maybe more going on than just impurities and oxides. There's a large proportion of that grey powdery stuff that's ash from the fluxing (burned flux). I'm becoming convinced that - say the powdered charcoal that I mentioned earlier that I put on top of the melt to keep oxygen away from the metal - that this material and its ash, and whatever else you leave floating on top ends up somehow becoming those inclusions that I have so much trouble with in my boolits.

We've all probly seen (at least I have) these floaties stay submerged when new metal is added and melted on top of them. At the least, they won't float to the surface until stirred.

You can add rosin, boolit lube, whatever you want to use, and play a torch on this grey stuff and it doesn't change. What metal there is in it you will see melting into droplets and pooling underneath this stuff (when rendered in a pot by itself). The grey stuff may burn or incandesce, but when it's over, nothing has changed. And after fluxing your pot when you pour the cleaned metal into ingots there's still that crap that shows up floating on the top of your ingots. It reduces some, and it burns some (play a torch on it while pouring the ingots), but just what the h#!! is it?

So there are other imputities that don't float, and do come out of the spout on your bottom pour. Is it just bad alloy or is there more to it?

[chevyiron420]

thanks alot fella's, it seems i learn a little each day! some seemingly simple things i seem to learn the hardest.
B.A. i am doing it like you said, unless im missing something. i finished smelting the rest of my lino today. i used candle wax to flux. i just put the wax in the melt and whosh, it lites it self, stirr with long gizmo with welding gloves on, repeat, after third try, give up, scoop out oxides with aloy mixed and proceed.-phil[smilie=b: