Advice on loading cast .223

[kb8yrw]

I just started casting for .223 and have a question for anyone with experience. First the boolit is a RCBS 55g SP GC sized to .226. Im using range lead water cooled with a BHN of 22 (using a Cabine Tree tester). The boolits are dropping .225-.226 and lubed with Carnauba Red and Hornady gas checks.

I'm using mixed brass and trimmed to 1.74" (using RCBS X-die for sizing). I'm loading using 23.5g of IMR 4895 and seated the boolit with a COA of 2.12. This load Chrony'ed at 2570 FPS average (10 shot) and had no leading in the barrel at all. I did not check for accuracy because I was initially more interested in leading and function plus I was waiting for my OAL gage and bullet comparitor to arrive. This leads me to my question.

I checked the OAL to the lands and it measures 2.24". At this length the case seats on the boolit below the lube groove.


http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19847411/web%20host/2012-11-30%2007.57.09.jpg

If I back the boolit up slightly to take it off the lands it puts the case mouth in the lube groove. My question is should I seat the boolit up to the driving band as I orginally did or expose the lube groove. I know I have to check for accurancy but it just seems that seating it to the driving band really backs the boolit off the lands and creates quit a jump. Anyone dealt with this before?

Thanks in advance!

[Larry Gibson]

What rifle?

Larry Gibson

[kb8yrw]

Sorry that would be helpful. I have two AR15's one is 16" and the other is 24". The 16" is a 1/9 and the 24" is a 1/8 twist. Both of the chambers measure identicle to the lands. The Chrony figure I stated was out of the 24" the average out of the 16" was about 150 FPS slower.

[madsenshooter]

I had an Eagan 169gr bullet that seated out like you've pictured. It was terribly accurate at 2000fps out of my Krag. My theory was that most of the lube, at ignition, was atomized and thrown down the bore ahead of the bullet. Not much time for it to do that before the bullet closed the bore though. Since you're below magazine length and have a load that is functioning, all you have to do now is find the velocity for accuracy. The closer to the lands the better. Least that's what my 6x45 prefers.

[Larry Gibson]

Sorry that would be helpful. I have two AR15's one is 16" and the other is 24". The 16" is a 1/9 and the 24" is a 1/8 twist. Both of the chambers measure identicle to the lands. The Chrony figure I stated was out of the 24" the average out of the 16" was about 150 FPS slower.


I'd leave them seated out if they fit in the mag and feed as pictured unless your shooting envirnment is very dirty where the lube would pick up dirt. I shoot lots of 225462's with lubed grooves hanging out in my 3 ARs, SSs and bolt guns.

Larry Gibson

[Gunnut 45/454]

KB8
Now shoot a group at 100 yards ! I want to see what kind of grouping your getting! I have to run mine alot slower as the groups went to hell at about 1950 ish fps! I'd keep it as close to the lans as possible IF your getting good accuracy![smilie=s:

[badluther]

I would be curious to see the 100 yd group as well (5-10 shots). I'm impressed your getting 2570 FPS. I am loading 62gr cast .223 bullets and max I am getting is a mean avg of 1750 FPS (20.25 gr of IMR 4895).

[Larry Gibson]

Note in the photo of the 225462 in my above post that there is lube in the 2 lube grooves and ahead of the GC. It shows a bit in the scraper groove but I usually do not put lube there. The two major grooves lubed and the bit above the GC are sufficient with Javelina (NRA 50/50) or 2500+ at 2300 fps out of my 12" twist 20" AR barrel (RL22 powder) for no leading after 200 rounds. Accuracy is on par with US M193 ammuntion in that rifle.

Larry Gibson

[GabbyM]

Your AR's have a 5.56mm NATO standard chamber with it's long free bore. As opposed to a 223 Rem SAMI chamber which would have less free bore.

[Larry Gibson]

Your AR's have a 5.56mm NATO standard chamber with it's long free bore. As opposed to a 223 Rem SAMI chamber which would have less free bore.


Will depend on when the .223 chamber was made. I have a Clymer .223 Rem reamer I got in '70 that has a throat pretty much the same as today's so called "5.56" chamber. My M700V made in '72 also had the longer throat. My Contender Carbine barrel and M70 XTR made in '81 have the shorter current SAAMI spec throats. My Savage Comp .223 match rifle made in '95 also has a long throat with the 9" twist for 69+ gr match bullet loads. Like the twist rate oin .223s the chambers also seem to vary widely.

Larry Gibson

[felix]

The boolit is adjusted back and forth to where it meets and/or engraves the lands in order to find the best ignition point for the load. Change anything and the vibes will change making the boolit release differently from the muzzle. For example, speeding up the powder/primer ignition characteristic requires a larger jump to the lands for the same results at the target. ... felix

[Gunnut 45/454]

56023Since the OP hasn't posted a target with his load I loaded up some at 23.5 gr and went out to see how they would group. The load consisted of the NOE 55gr lubed with Alox in PMC cases trimmed to 1.750" and 23.5 gr IMR4895. I didn't chrony these but I suspect they are very close to what the OP stated he got! I had three flyers in the group on the target that are marked- as I think I ginked the bullets when seating them. Other then those flyers not a bad group even though it was only 50 yards my old eyes were bugging today so I figured I better shoot at 50.

[kb8yrw]

I apologize for not following up with this but the weather has been **** and with the holidays coming up we have been putting some long hours in. When I get off work it is dark. I have loaded up several rounds with varying lengths to test. I might try and get out tomorrow if the range is open and it isn't raining. My son and grandkids are home from the army it would be fun to go to the range with him. I will post the results if I get out.

[JIMinPHX]

These are 225415HPs in a .223. They worked well for me in a single shot. There was almost no part of the boolit inside the case neck. All the lube was external. I wouldn't try these in an autoloader only because I would be worried about the slug getting knocked out of the brass.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/asset.php?fid=43263&uid=3614&d=1334154743

[Gunnut 45/454]

KB8
Well I went out and chronied the load an your guess on the speed was very close. I averaged 2382 FPS in my 16" carbine. Accuracy at 100 yards! Pitifull! As I suspected. Now this might be due to my alloy but I suspect it's more to the fact they are just going to fast. I've had good luck with this alloy in my '06 up to 2250 FPS out of my Rem 7400- need to go that fast just to get full function accuracy is about 2" at 100 yards! So I'm loading the next batch at 22 gr IMR 4895 to get down to around 2200 fps and see how the groups look at 100 yards ! I suspect they will tighen up alot.

[kb8yrw]

I still have not got out to shoot. The range was closed due to hunting season..........I want to hunt paper!!!!! I could shoot in my back yard but I do not like to do that unless I'm shooting handguns. Maybe this weekend.

Gunnut - Very interesting, I never really thought about slowing them down. I suppose with the bullet extended out of the case that is going to slow them down a bit. I may have to load up a few dozen with a lighter powder load duplicating the COA of the ones I have ready for testing.

[Gunnut 45/454]

KB8
I load mine to and COAL of 2.070" with this Lyman bullet cause If I load them longer the jam. At this COAL they feed like a champ in both of my 5.56mm. If the weather is decent tomorrow I'll get out an shoot them. Now at 23.5gr they are useable at around 50 yards but I demand atleast decent grouping at 100 yards better yet to 200 yards! Now this same bullet at my usual load of 18.7 gr groups about 6" at 200 yards.

Well I got out and shot the 22gr load Avg vel 2135fps big improvement in group but I was shooting chrony so the group could be better. I loaded up the next lot with 21.7gr and it will be shot for group at 100 yards and not chronied they should be around 2075 ish.

[Wilkie]

Great post guys! I have been using cb in my AK for a while now. Have been curious to try it in my AR. I want to use H4895. I have an RCBS mold coming. I'm worried about the light bullet and light loads not cycling the gun properly. Looking forward to some new plinking fun!

[Gunnut 45/454]

Wilkie
Well got down to 21gr load with IMR 4895 at 100 yards groups are still about 5-6" not good! With my normal load of 18.7 gr IMR 4895 I get about 2-3" groups or less those run about 1890 ish fps with full function in my AR's. I think the next time I'm going to try them in my PSA 1:7" twist as it has a better trigger then my 1:9" or maybe I'll just swap the lowers around. Going to be awhile before I do this as the weather is bitterly cold right now.

[Moonie]

16gr of H4895 cycles our mid length gas upper with 55-60gr boolits.

[runfiverun]

there is a difference in burn speed between imr and h-4895 in the 22 cases.
i use imr 4895 in my 22 cases [all of them]
get the boolit seated out as far as practically possible. [touching steel would be good]
alloy makes a huge difference. [in boolit diameter and how it engages]
weight sorting even bigger.

[root]

Tagged for future reference. as I'm not yet casting for the .22 ar platform yet.

Good info please keep it coming.

[pumbaajk]

i have the rcbs 22 55 sp mold on the way. I am watching this thread in hopes of getting ideas on where to start.

[Threepersons]

Good thread. I spent a year and half, 3000 rounds exprimenting with cast
boolits in 223 gun. Lyman 225646 mould, sized to .226 gas check, 18bd to
straight Lino. Gun, late 581 Mini 14. Ruger. Best accuracy, 18gr 4895, 4064
works ok. Vel. 1950. Often shoots better than Mini 14 should, but sometimes
has fliers out to 4 inches. 100 yards, 30 rounds, 20 inside 1 in.,6 insida
2 in. and yht next 4 will group inside 4 in.

I am now trying a plain base bullet based on a modified Lyman 225646.
No luck at 1950 vel. Guess I will attempt speed down to 1400. Don't
think gun will cycle that low.
I will keep checking this tread

[390ish]

Is range lead going to be on the soft side?

[Larry Gibson]

Is range lead going to be on the soft side?

That is going to depend on what the alloy(s) were sent down range and what percentage of each before you collected it. Probably will be softer with a high antimony content. I usually add tin and lead to balance the tin to antimony percentage in range lead to make it cast better and WQ better.

Larry Gibson

[Mayhem]

hoping to get started casting boolits for my ar as j's have dried up and my desire to shoot remains. I would like to ask if your results have improved and what types of lube are you guys using?

[camotruck]

I find it funny that as I was searching for info on using cast boolits for my AR the early threads basically say why bother .224 are cheap and plentiful or it cant be done because of speed or clogging the gas port. Well here we are in 2013 and I see things are changing. I started reading one thread and found someone use the word "Myth" referring to shooting cast from the .225 or 5.56 AR15. ... and then I got called back to work and can't find the thread again.

So in an attempt to keep this thread going and tag it so I can find it later...

I have an AR 15 16in HB chambered in 5.56 so, Long throat. I can't remember if it's 1 in 7 or 1 in 9 twist rate, either way pretty fast. I am casting Lyman 225646 GC and I'm looking for a lube recommendation. Right now I'm using WW and a little tin. I can cast Lino if need be. It looks to me that I have complete fill out with some frosting on just the center between the lube groves. But I haven't pulled out the magnifier yet. I'm waiting on GC's right now no rush. my buddy has the sizer and nose punch I just need a little help with lube. and anything I have unknowingly missed.

I see many different powders others have used in their load development and have many of them so I guess what I'm saying is I'm flexible.

Camo

[TreeKiller]

What few i shot ( about 200 ) i used Lars Carnauba Red had no leading.

[ph4570]

I use Felix lube with no issues and good accuracy.

[camotruck]

Someone else recommended LBT so I guess sized correctly I have a few to chose from

[Larry Gibson]

I prefer 2500+ or a good NRA 50/50 lube. Suggest you add 2% tin to your COWWs and WQ them Let them age harden 48 hours before sizing, GCing and lubing. Size to as close to "as cast" as you can. My best bullet drops at .227+ and I use a .228 H die to crimp and seat GCs and lube the bullet. H4895 is about the fastest powder to use and RL 22 is the slowest I use. I also use Varget, RL19, AA4350 and H4831SC.

Larry Gibson

[camotruck]

I just got some 2500 + and borrowed 2 molds ... ordered another one. and have a .225 sizer. time to start the testing.